Author Topic: 45 or 51mm fork rake for CS-MB01  (Read 3505 times)

gohloum

45 or 51mm fork rake for CS-MB01
« on: September 13, 2016, 03:36:08 PM »
So I pulled the trigger today on this frame, wheels and other goodies from Peter.  I am planning to go with the Fox 32 Factory SC fork.  However, I am not sure which would be the appropriate rake for this fork. 

As a rider, I'm a between sizer for frame so I went with the 17".  I am wondering since the head tube angle is 71, if I should go with the 51?  Seems Trek Genesis 2 geometry call for the 51 as standard. 

Any thoughts on this?

[EDIT Title]
Oops,  I meant to type 45 instead of 49.

However, after much research, I have come to the conclusion that the 51mm in most cases will be the better option for most frames with steeper head tube angles.  Generally greater than 69.5.  However as all of you know, the full geometry plays into the ride and twitch, so it becomes a bigger conversation.... Kinda like crank arm length, especially if you look at mtbr.com.  It really comes back to more rider experience and trial and error.


« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 11:44:48 AM by gohloum »



Carbon_Dude

Re: 45 or 51mm fork rake for CS-MB01
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2016, 08:07:26 PM »
When it comes to fork offset I'm clueless.  Hopefully someone jumps in and answers your question.
2019 Stumpjumper Expert 29/27.5+
2017 Santa Cruz Stigmata
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+) (Sold)
2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

cmh

Re: 45 or 51mm fork rake for CS-MB01
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2016, 09:32:08 PM »
When it comes to fork offset I'm clueless.  Hopefully someone jumps in and answers your question.

Yeah, I thought it was the other way around with the G2 geometry going with the shallower head angles, the longer offset making up for the slacker head angle to keep the handling lively. My Epic has a 46mm offset with a 70.75 degree head tube and it handles super lively. Am actually going to take my G2 fork and put it on the bike to see what I think, as well. Can report back when I do, but it's not going to be very soon.

gohloum

Re: 45 or 51mm fork rake for CS-MB01
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2016, 10:54:37 PM »
That's very interesting about your Epic.

I'm getting my fork through a local guy who sells a lot of Fox forks.  He called them up to find out more about the SC since he hadn't sold one of those yet.  The Fox Factory guy told him that all the high end Treks are specifically 51mm because of the geometry.  He said that a lot of it has to do with head tube angle, but other geometry plays a factor in contribution, like wheelbase, chain stays, etc...

I'm from the old school days and I remember when rigid forks on most bikes were bent where the rake was more obvious. and if you ever did silly stuff like try and turn the handle bar around backwards and ride no-handed, you were in for a quick surprise kiss with the pavement as the rake prevented the ability for the wheel to track.  the physics are similar to dihedral in an airplane wing.  Stunt planes have little to no degree of dihedral to prevent them from trying to roll back over when inverted, where as jumbo jets have much greater angle.  That force is is similar to pressure applied from the weight of the rider.  The rake has kicked the axle positive of the centerline of the head tube vector. Therefore Delta (D), being the direct straight line from axle to bottom headset crown (connecting pivot point) which creates a weighted mass between the 2 angles, (similar to the center of gravity in a dihedral wing) applying force to F (gravity). 

In an airplane, it's obvious to observe and understand, the wings are equal length and F is down (gravity).  In a bike, force from the rider is down, but the force (F) applied to the rake if forward.  The 'dihedral' type concept is harder to observe because the angle is offset and between the head tube vector and rake vector (it looks lopsided).  However, if you hold your bike up by the top tube in a wheelie where the head tube is parallel to the ground, what happens to your front tire?  It tries to turn around backwards.  The more rake offset, the greater the force an faster it will come around once it breaks 0 degrees, which is similar in principle of greater angle of dihedral rolling a plane back upright.

[Sorry about that long explanation, I program games and have to do a bit of physics and math simulations from time to time.] :o

I remember this in action: The guy I worked for in his bike shop back in the 80's would weld up custom kits, and we got to play with frame geometry and experiment a little... (and burned up all kinds of stuff around the shop with his torch and welder). I do remember we built a custom fork for my Haro Master BMX bike.  I was getting into riding half pipe more than street freestyle and the master was super twitchy compared to the other model they made (forgot the name).  I believe what he did was increase the rake on the fork he built for me. It made the bike track better when riding with no hands, and definitely took some of the twitch out on landings,  I was not the most graceful half pipe rider.

gohloum

Re: 45 or 51mm fork rake for CS-MB01
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2016, 04:52:50 PM »
Thought I'd give a quick update here. 

My LBS guy called fox to order my shock. I wanted the orange and the 51mm is only in black.  This time he spoke with a guy who actually knew in much greater detail about the rake issue.  Now although my nutty explanation above makes sense, we did find out a bit more.  The 51mm is geared more towards the trail rider.  the 44 is XC, and the "Did you see all the forks in the field in the Olympics?" comment came up.  Pretty much everyone on a Step Cast was running an orange one (44mm only).  If I recall, I think Emily Batty was running one on her hardtail (Trek). 

So, that being noted, I'm going with the 44.  It's already been ordered and I think Fox said about 3 days to finish up a run before they can ship. 

Carbon_Dude

Re: 45 or 51mm fork rake for CS-MB01
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2016, 07:21:35 PM »
The forks on both of my plus bikes have a 51mm offset (both also have boost axle spacing).  Doing a little research I do see that 51mm appears to be more trail oriented.  However, according to this old Gary Fisher video explains G2 is "Genesis 2" geometry, which I guess they pioneered at the time, shows the 51mm offset helps any bike track better through turns.

I believe my Chiners both had standard geometry forks, a 2012 Rockshox Reba RLT Dual Air, and a Fox Float32 Evolution CTD.  If the G2 geometry is partially responsible for the excellent handling characteristics of my new bike, then I'm pretty happy with the 51mm offset.  Also, I think that may be where the industry is going for many of the new bikes.

2019 Stumpjumper Expert 29/27.5+
2017 Santa Cruz Stigmata
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+) (Sold)
2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA