Author Topic: Could use some advice  (Read 6503 times)

hrbiel

Could use some advice
« on: August 07, 2014, 02:16:27 AM »
Great to find a web site devoted to Chinese carbon fiber frames with knowledgeable members. I'm new to riding anything carbon fiber as I've been a steel guy for like forever. I normally ride a 56/57 cm road frame with a 56 cm top tube and a 10 cm stem. So now I'm wondering if a 17.5 will fit better than a 19 29er frame. I recently fell into a new job where I ride the Mickelson Trail (a rails-to-trails conversion) here in the Black Hills of South Dakota. The job requires me to ride various sections of the trail 5 days/week to ensure trail users are safe, following trail rules/etiquette and pay the trail user fees. So I get anywhere from 130 to 150 miles riding in/week. I have been riding a cyclocross bike, but for the amount of time I'm on the bike, the riding position is a little too race oriented. I've been riding on 32 mm knobbies but a wider tire would add greater comfort. So a slightly more upright position and wider tires as well as a considerably lighter bike is what I'm shooting for. I've been looking at zgr9's frame: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-Carbon-Matt-29er-Mountain-Bike-Frame-19-BSA-Fork-Seatpost-Headset-Hanger-/171398898441?pt=US_Bicycles_Frames&hash=item27e82ba309
with a solid fork which looks like it would weigh in around 17lbs. So I'm open for suggestions from you all as to whether a 17.7 or a 19 would be the better fit. And BTW, feel free to come up to SD and ride the Mickelson Trail. Its been identified as one of the best!



Vipassana

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2014, 11:06:32 AM »
Do you have any current bicycles that we could compare the geometry/sizing to?

hrbiel

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2014, 11:34:39 AM »
All my road bikes are either 56s or 57s and all have about the same reach @ 56 cm with a 10 cm stem. And they're all horizontal top tubes. I guess the problem I'm having is that these carbon frames have such dropped top tubes that I can't relate the frame dimensions to my standard reach. I'm of normal proportions @ 5'9" with a 31" inseam if that helps any.

Patrick C.

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 12:25:12 PM »
I'm 5'10" and would consider all my bikes "medium", I think a 57 cm road/cyclocross bike would be considered "large" or "medium/large".  Just going by this, you're probably closer to a 19" for the Chiners.

Look for the effective top tube distance- the horizontal distance from the center of the headtube to the seat tube (or where the seat tube would be)-  it's 600 mm or 60 cm on the 17.5" IP-057 which is a "medium".



Looks like most cyclocross and road bikes have shorter ETT's.  I used to ride a 54 cm Trek road bike (stock stem, probably 100 mm) and I have a medium Giant OCR; both fit me well.  The 17.5" IP-057 also fits me well with a 70 mm stem.  I have about an inch of spacers under the stem and a riser bar- this gives me a pretty relaxed, upright position, but I could easily switch to an aggressive position by changing the stem and taking out the spacers. 


Try out an online fit calculator and see what it suggests.  ETT and stand over are the two main numbers to look for.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/Store/catalog/fitCalculatorBike.jsp

Patrick C.

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 12:27:23 PM »
And congrats on the job!  I'd love to take a bike tour of that area.

You may want to also look at a Chiner Fatbike for when the trail is under 3 feet of snow :)

carbonazza

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 03:59:02 PM »
I used: http://www.competitivecyclist.com/Store/catalog/fitCalculatorBike.jsp to have an idea where to start.
The seller provided me with the geometry files of the 17" and 19".
Beware that the crank harm may have different lengths(170, 175mm, etc.).

Then I started to measure the distances against the geometry files, and compare them to the results of the test above.
And as well compare it to my current bike.

I'm 5'10" too.
But seem to fall always between medium and large.

I took the 19" finally.
And even if my old bike is a 26", all the body distances(seat-pedals, seat-bar, seat-bb, stack and reach) are surprisingly identical to my new 29".

hrbiel

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 04:15:37 PM »
Thanks for the help. Competitive Cyclist indicates a TT length of 624 mm so I guess a 17.5" would work with a 10cm stem. That would put me about 1" too short or more upright which is what I'm looking for. Pretty good reference there - thanks for the link! I see carbonazza just posted that he went with a 19" and he is also 5'10". I see that it sucks to be so in-between sizes. let me know if you think my logic is flawed.

Carbon_Dude

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 05:25:55 PM »
hrbiel, welcome to the forums.  The link to the frame you posted is the same as an XMIplay IP-057.  Many members of the forum have ordered from peter@xmiplay.cn, just send him an email.  I am pretty sure he can do better than the eBay price but that's totally up to you.  If you order a frame from Peter he can also create a custom paint job for you, several member have also gone this route.  Costs a bit extra but it's great to have something a bit more unique.

As for your sizing, I have an IP-057 and am 5'-11 w/ a 32" inseam and could not imagine myself on a 17" medium frame.  The 19" fits me perfectly.  However, you being a bit smaller, it's possible you would be more in between a Med and Large frame.  I don't have a road bike, but if I did I have been told I would take a 56cm or 57cm frame size.  So that would make me question even more if you need a Med or Large.

I even run my seatpost a bit high on my Large frame so I would be maxing out or possibly run out of seatpost if I were on a Med frame.

Cheers, and please feel free to ask lots of questions.  Everyone on this forum is super helpful.
2019 Stumpjumper Expert 29/27.5+
2017 Santa Cruz Stigmata
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+) (Sold)
2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Vipassana

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 07:42:01 PM »
I'll weigh in here.  I'm on an IP-256 and I am 5' 10.5".  I completely understand you in-between-sizes-struggle.  I have it with clothes, shoes, and bikes.

My inseam (measured the correct way, not the pants measurement) is 32.25".  I'm a pretty firm believer that standover isn't the be-all and end-all of bike fit, but it's how most shops try to fit you.  Actually, most shops try to fit you to what they have in stock, but that's another rant for another day.  Anyway, I have maybe 1" of clearance in the stand over department, just for reference.  Perhaps a bit more when the boys are picked up by the lycra.

Either way, I think effective top tube length is a far more important measurement for "fit", for me at least.  If the ETT is too short, you will be very upright and often, the handlebars and front tire can/will interfere with your feet/knees.  Sometimes your elbows get into your leg stroke area.  This is OK on a road bike, but can be annoying or worse on an MTB where range of motion is very important.  Your center of gravity is high too. 

With a longer ETT, you will lean over more.  This can result in lower back pain, especially if your core isn't strong.  It can also cause arm fatigue as more weight is on your arms.  You have less control over your bike as things are over extended or at their limits.

Sure, you can "fix" ETT with a stem length change, but I really don't like to do this too much.  I think longer stems result in a bike that handles somewhat slowly.  It also doesn't cure the problem of the feet and knees conflicting with the handlebar and front tire on turns.  I would not really venture out of the 80-100mm stem range unless You have zero other options (you're REALLY tall or you already own a bike that is too small).

So how do you choose?  That's rough.  First I used the competitive cyclist website to take my measurements and make some recommendations.

Then I identified what type of rider I am and  what type riding I wanted to do.  I'm a faster rider who rides smooth, quick, non-technical cross country.  I want to do more endurance XC racing.  I don't mind being in a bit more of a race-oriented (stretched out) position.

Lastly, called on experience.  I bought a Giant Anthem X2 in large.  I rode it for 1.5 years.  I learned that bike like the back of my hand.  I know how it fits me and what I would change about it.  In my case, it was just a bit too long and I often felt just too stretched out.  Another problem I had was that since I had to reach further, when I stood up to climb, I was positioned further forward with unweight the back tire and caused loss of traction. (long chainstay length on the Anthem didn't help this either.).

Building on the "based on experience" approach mentioned above, another tool I used was to gather the geometry of all the bikes I have rode for some amount of distance in recent memory.  I then went to each manufacturer's site and dumped the geometry.  This can be tricky as not all manufacturers list all dimensions or call them the same names or report them in the same units.  But the main ones are usually there is you parse through them.

My list had the following bikes:
Giant Anthem X2 (Large)
Specialized Camber Comp (Large)
Niner Air 9 RDO (Medium)

Then I listed the frames I was considering:
IP-057 (Medium and Large)
IP-256 (Medium and Large)
 
Lastly, I included the Scott Scale because I heard it had identical geometry to the IP-256.  Which it does!

Here is the chart I made:


Here is the dimension key:


Armed with this information, I decided that the IP-256 in 19" would be a good fit.  It's ETT of 620mm was shorter than the Giant's 635mm.  That's good as I wanted to be a bit less stretched.  I knew I could also go with an 80mm stem on the IP-256 compared to the 95mm one on the Giant.  This would buy me another 15mm less stretch.  Cool.  However, I rode the Air 9 RDO in medium and it felt cramped at 607mm with an 80mm stem.  After that, I checked some of the other measurements to make sure nothing was goofy.  The chainstay length (my other complaint about the Giant) was very reasonable and a good inch shorter on the IP-256/IP-57 which would make for a better climber and faster turning bike.

My point is not to bore you with how I found the fit on MY bike, but it was to show you the method I used to choose when I was in your exact position... Medium or Large for a guy on the fence.

If you don't have own other bikes, it might be worth it to borrow or rent one or two.  Demo days also rock for data gathering.  It's a bit of work, but that's the price you pay to order a Chiner sight unseen.

hrbiel

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 11:58:02 PM »
Really appreciate all the thoughtful inputs. Guess I'll just have to do some more research before I make up my mind.

WorkingHPRs

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 07:58:45 AM »
Sorry to hijack but some super useful advice in here.

I am 6'3" (189cm) and 198lb (90kg) and looking at the 256sl for racing XC team endurance in the UK.

Competitive cyclist suggests (from rudimentary measurements, did them alone with tape measure and steel rule) standover of 32.9" to 33.6" (835mm to 853mm) and Top tube of 24.4 to 24.8 (620mm to 630mm) which seems to suggest the large 256sl would suit best rather than the XL, although it does suggest a 10 - 12 cm stem which seems excessive, so maybe I have some measurements wrong. Inside leg should be pretty accurate at 88cm (34.5"). Peter at XMI suggested the XL (to be fair based on height and weight alone).

Looking forward to the input!

Carbon_Dude

Re: Could use some advice
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2014, 01:56:28 PM »
I just went through the Competitive Cyclist fit calculator and compared what it says to my IP-057.  In summary:

Stand over height = good.

Virtual Top Tube = good.

Stem length = good.

BB to Saddle = high, but I like my saddle higher to get a fuller leg stroke.  What it doesn't take into account is my riser bars so I may not be too far off.

Saddle to Handlebar = long, I also like being a little more stretched out, I have tried moving my seat closer to my bars but that doesn't feel as comfortable to me.

For me, there is little doubt that my best fit is a Large 19" frame.

2019 Stumpjumper Expert 29/27.5+
2017 Santa Cruz Stigmata
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+) (Sold)
2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA