Author Topic: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames  (Read 5000 times)

toxin

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2024, 07:34:10 PM »
Entirely possible these different experiences are a result of manufacturing variance

jonathanf2

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2024, 07:58:28 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if even sizing makes a difference in bike stiffness and handling with these Chinese frames. All my frames lean towards the small side and they feel sufficiently stiff to me. Whenever I hear talk about a noodle-like frame, it's something I haven't experienced. I guess that's an issue that only affects the taller height disadvantaged!  ;D

Wildh24

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2024, 09:20:19 PM »
Several years ago,  I had numerous conversations with manufacturers via Alibaba regarding Carbon rims.   From my perspective, carbon rim manufacturing in China is now a commodity product.  China has several holding companies that are dedicated to engineering,  designing and manufacturing the tooling and molds necessary to lay up and build carbon rims.  For a new company wanting to fabricate carbon rims, the barrier of entry is relatively low.  A new company can also contract with rim foundries that make rims and have their specified rims made for them.

YISHUNBIKE is one example of a company that specifically manufactures carbon rims for wholesalers. 
I believe that the majority of carbon rims sold in "Stores" in Aliexpress are selling rims fabricated in the rim foundries.

Regarding bicycle frames,  Manufacturing technology for carbon frames is still advancing.  Carbon frame manufacturing is a lot more complex than carbon rims.  Over time, there has been a convergence of manufacturing practices that is making it more efficient and easier to make carbon frame.   (Think open mold frames.)   
Optimizing frames for minimal weight, durability and cost is still very time consuming and expensive.  Most Chinese carbon frame manufacturers, higher end frames are in the 80% range for weight,durability and cost.   China tends to lag behind a couple years in the latest fabrication processes that the high end frame manufacturers utilize.
 

I would absolutely agree as many of the sellers on Ali are offering basically the same rim with slightly different build options.  Summer are definitely better than others though. Both in quality and service.

Does YISHUNBIKE do one offs to consumers at all?  The R1088 is a nice looking frame. 

https://www.yishunbike.com/product/r1088-daero-road/


Sebastian

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2024, 01:36:00 AM »
The rise of Chinese alternatives during this time brought so much excitement to this forum. Forum members were passionate about helping each other, and the overall vibe felt like a positive community of budget-minded enthusiasts. You could easily spend hours each day reading pages upon pages of new posts. The forum was basically a party everyday.

In Europe big online retailers are folding and selling off their stock at huge discounts. The second hand market has been flooded with the bikes that people bought during covid, at least for a while. I think what we're experiencing on this forum is just a reflection of the market cooling down significantly. The number of people in the market for a bike frame (instead of a fully assembled bike) is very small to begin with. Now, that the price advantage of chiner frames has shrunk somewhat, many people probably choose to not take the risk.

For the money that Winspace is asking these days, I can find quite a few framesets of the big brands at various online retailers. Granted, I might struggle to find the size I want. But still.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 01:50:57 AM by Sebastian »

Wildh24

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2024, 08:51:15 AM »
Which Europe sellers are folding?  I haven't really been following the market closely?

Macedingle

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2024, 09:00:51 AM »
Which Europe sellers are folding?  I haven't really been following the market closely?

I think the largest one is Wiggle, which is going into some European form of bankruptcy.

patliean1

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2024, 09:13:53 AM »
Winspace kept the pricing of their T1500/T1550 essentially the same for 4+ years. Same can't be said for brands like Yishun and Yoeleo. I originally bought my Yoeleo R6 for $850 in Fall 2020 and now their latest R12 cost $1600. So it's not unreasonable for Winspace to inevitably increase their prices. I'm certain the molds/tooling of their new Agile frame also contributes to the price hike. Mind you the quality and fit/finish of Winspace is on par with mid-level frames from the big boys.

This brings me back to my original point earlier. If your budget is $2000 for a frame, can you push for $3000? That gets you a Giant Propel or even a second-hand SL7. The Tavelo Attack is also a fantastic option too.

BalticSea

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2024, 10:28:48 AM »
I think the largest one is Wiggle, which is going into some European form of bankruptcy.
True, but they only had nice deals on their own in-house brands stuff. Other items like Shimano parts were still more expensive than in proper stores, i.e. bike-discount.com

toxin

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2024, 01:29:40 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if even sizing makes a difference in bike stiffness and handling with these Chinese frames. All my frames lean towards the small side and they feel sufficiently stiff to me. Whenever I hear talk about a noodle-like frame, it's something I haven't experienced. I guess that's an issue that only affects the taller height disadvantaged!  ;D

Thats absolutely a thing. Especially in chinese frames that spend magnitudes less resources on development

Sebastian

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2024, 03:54:31 PM »
Winspace kept the pricing of their T1500/T1550 essentially the same for 4+ years. Same can't be said for brands like Yishun and Yoeleo.

I’m not trying to criticise Winspace. I just don’t think their market position is that unique anymore when compared to a few years ago. We’re kind of back to where we were before COVID in that, if you’re not super picky, you can snatch big brand frames from reputable retailers for big discounts if you’re patient enough. I’m based in Germany. A while ago, a lot of Giant TCR frames were sold rather cheap. After that it was Tarmac SL7 framesets and at the moment I can find pretty good offers for BMC Teammachine SLR framesets at around 1600-1700 EUR. So there’s a lot more going on at the “Winspace price point” compared to a few years ago. Below 1000EUR/USD however, a frame directly from China is still the best option, I think. Unless you’re ready to go second hand.

Macedingle

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2024, 05:14:39 PM »
What is everyone’s motivation post covid for when it comes to builds? Are you going for quality? Are you shopping Chinese for value? Maybe consumer views have change the past 4 years

raisinberry777

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2024, 08:44:51 PM »
I’m going to be honest here: I very much miss the glory days of this forum during the pandemic years. It was a perfect storm. People were stuck at home with extra discretionary income and free-time, while major bike brands were dealing with fulfillment delays. The rise of Chinese alternatives during this time brought so much excitement to this forum. Forum members were passionate about helping each other, and the overall vibe felt like a positive community of budget-minded enthusiasts. You could easily spend hours each day reading pages upon pages of new posts. The forum was basically a party everyday. I’m lucky to have joined during COVID.

I think that this rises and falls with economics conditions and location. I bought my first (and only - so far) Chinese frame in 2014 from Velobuild. I've ordered a variety of Chinese parts since then, but have always kept a pretty close eye on the market (and your videos have been a great resource here - so thanks).

Market conditions have changed a lot since 2014 in Australia. When I bought that Velobuild frame, I was able to import a full Shimano 105 5800 groupset (at that time, newly released) for $290 USD. Similarly, international shipping was cheaper, and I was able to import some decent aluminium wheels for around $270 USD, and the frame itself - the VBR-016 - plus a seatpost was about $600 USD with a custom paint job. Total build then ended up being around $1300 USD, and to buy something equivalent locally was maybe 1.5x that price. A big part of the appeal to me was a threaded bottom bracket - which at that time was quite a novelty as basically every major brand had moved to press-fit.

A big part of being able to build that frame economically was being able to get the groupset at close to OEM prices. That has changed significantly now. Shimano and SRAM have both blocked sales across borders, and Campagnolo have priced themselves out of the market. To buy a mechanical Shimano 105 R7100 groupset now appears to be at least $1200 - and now that nearly all Chinese frames are fully integrated, there's no way I would use a mechanical groupset with one.

Additionally, I also chose that frame because there was not much on it to screw up in the build process. The BB was threaded and never gave me any issues. The headset used a standard integrated size (and the included Neco one was just fine), and the cabling was only internal through the downtube and came out at the bottom bracket - very easy to build. It still lives on as a spare bike.

The list of potential issues now is just so much longer that it is difficult (for me) to recommend a Chinese frame to most people unless they go in fully aware of all the issues. For example, this forum is filled with people having various issues with headsets and integrated bar/stems. If an integrated bar/stem is of poor quality, finding a replacement is a much more expensive and labour intensive job. Disc brake mounts often tend to be poorly faced and have problems from overspray. Seatposts are often proprietary with no alternatives available - as someone who rides a 0 offset seatpost this is a critical factor. If you're not doing your own labour, then it's very likely that having someone deal with these issues for you will not be worth it and a previous generation second-hand disc brake bike will represent better value for money.

During COVID, the market changed significantly in favour of Chinese frames. Wait times for Western brands were long, discounts were rare, and as a result the second-hand market was priced far higher than normal. The price of Chinese components did not change so much (the price of a Velobuild frame is not that different to ten years ago) so the prices became more competitive. Now we're seeing a correction in the second hand market, and the prices of full bikes and groupsets have come down as various distributors are overstocked in a cooling market. Recently, I was able to buy a Merida Scultura with 105 Di2 for around 1800 USD. At that price, and knowing that I wouldn't have to deal with the kind of issues mentioned above, it was an easy decision to choose a big brand frame this time around.


Step 1: Passion Project vs Functionality
As a cycling reviewer, I obviously don’t have any emotional attachments to my bikes. Except for my believed T1500. To me it’s about being functional and fast. If the “best” frame for (my) price range and riding style only offers matte black…I’ll take it every time. Custom paint means nothing to me if the frame is either a noodle or destroys my back. But I’m a performance-first person.

Fully agree with this. For what it's worth, the paint on my Velobuild frame was not particularly thick and chipped quite easily (noting that this was 10 years ago - maybe it's improved since then) - this would not be as much of an issue if it was just black.


Step 2: Riding Style and Geometry
Can you slam your stem? Cool for you. Do you prefer an endurance style bike? Also very cool. Geometry is critical obviously. I cannot stress seeking a professional bike fit enough. Or just comparing your current bike to your target bikes using something like Geometry Geeks.

This is particularly critical with the advent of fully integrated frames - though that goes for both Chinese and Western bike brands. With Chinese brands though, there definitely tends to be less endurance options available. Most of the popular models here are race geometry and there's a lot less information online around the endurance geometry frames. Perhaps it's because many of us here are looking for a cheap bike for racing that they won't be heartbroken over crashing.

Step 3: Budget vs “True” Budget
If your budget is “only $600” for a frame, ask yourself if an extra $300 will be significant to you a year from now. How about an extra $500? How about two years from now? Buy nice or buy twice. Might be worth spending the extra money if you plan to keep your bike for longer than two years. But be warned: cheap bikes are addicting.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. You'll remember the quality long after you've forgotten the cost. Which leads to...

Step 4: What is your “pain” threshold for cheap bikes?
Cheap bikes are cheap bikes for a reason. Sort of. The value-add for these types of bikes is you are willing to put in the work yourself to troubleshoot, should bike build problems arise. If you do however find yourself frustrated, fear not! The forum is here to help. Typically the more you spend, the less potential for problems to arise. Or the brand will be faster to rectify. Unless you’re Yoeleo… :-X

... this. The lack of customer support from these brands is always a risk, and you really have to consider that you're entering these transactions with the thought that you will never get any help from the brand with the product. You never want to be the test case with Chinese products (or at least, consider it money thrown away, and anything that works is a bonus) - I would always advise waiting until a number of people have tried the product, and hopefully see some anecdotal reports of how the brand has dealt with any issues that have arisen.

Takiyaki

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2024, 08:50:14 PM »
COVID market conditions are a good point. It's a lot easier to get a big brand bike now, and if you aren't too particular about specs some of them aren't that much more expensive. I'm pretty sure Giant bikes undercut midrange Chinese builds on price now, especially if you get one on sale.

electrolux

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2024, 05:24:07 AM »
True, but they only had nice deals on their own in-house brands stuff. Other items like Shimano parts were still more expensive than in proper stores, i.e. bike-discount.com
There were some fantastic deals for UK buyers. Pair of 105 Di2 Levers and calipers for £205 and a 105 12s chainset for £55. I'm on my way to putting together a Di2 groupset for £500-£600.

PLA

Re: Patty's Long Rant and Guide To Affordable Frames
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2024, 06:07:54 AM »
There were some fantastic deals for UK buyers. Pair of 105 Di2 Levers and calipers for £205 and a 105 12s chainset for £55. I'm on my way to putting together a Di2 groupset for £500-£600.

Yep I got some of my shit from there