Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: eucalyptus on February 26, 2022, 06:52:56 AM
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Hey, been reading a lot on this forum and WW.
My question: Are there any frames that can compete on the same weight like the $5000 frames by Specialized, Pinarello and a few others?
The only one I know about that would be an option is the Seka Exceed RDC, which is just slightly heavier than the top tier frames but also not very racy aggressive geometry. Read that the Seka is more laidback.
The Velobuild 168 looks fantastic as it is a copy of the Tarmac SL7 geometry, but it is a lot heavier.
I don't really care about pricing, I understand that a Velobuild frame for $500 cannot compete with a +$5000 S-works frame, but why is there nothing in between? I wouldn't mind paying $2-3000 for a top-tier frame from China.
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The upcoming Elilee Blize (https://www.weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159888&p=1732211&hilit=blize#p1730922) will have an ultralight 680g variant constructed from a mixture of Toray T1100 and M40X. You also have the Dizo Epic Pro (https://www.slogdesign.com/dizo----slogdesign.html) which is constructed from Mitsubishi MR70 and Dyneema. These two won't be cheap and they certainly won't they sit at that 2-3K US sweetspot. According to Elilee, T1100 costs 5x of T800 and M40X costs 10x of T800...you do the math. For reference Elilee's top level EVO XXE (http://www.biketo.com/product/48397.html) triathlon frame retailed at around 4.5K US in China. Finally you have the not-as-high-end Pardus Robin Evo (https://www.biketo.com/product/48566.html) that employs a mixture of T1100, T800 and M40 for its carbon layup.
Do note that carbon supply is massively constrained worldwide which means that there is next to no excess material left for no name brands. Since imported material is hard to come by and there are actually export restrictions placed on top level T1100 due to military applications, most open mould makers source their material from Sinofibers who produce T1000 and T800 domestically in China. Sinofibers (https://guba.eastmoney.com/news,300777,883488993.html) has small batch T1100 & M40X equivalent material (ZT9 & ZM40X) on top of their recently commercialised T1000 but currently only T800 (ZT8) is mass produced and readily available. Besides Sinofibers, Tianshun (http://hlj.ifeng.com/a/20170503/5627282_0.shtml) produce T800 equivalent material (TS800) and are also working on their own T1000.
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UHM or high % of HM / UHM fibers generally isn't desirable anyway, as it produces an incredibly stiff, brittle frame. The really lightweight stuff usually uses less material and a mix of T700 & T800 or equivalents, but because they use less material they're often rather noodly and flexy, like the Aethos or worse the O2 VAM.
Dizo is interesting due to the dyneema ... It should make steerer failures much less likely, as well as shock absorption properties.
Also I'd never heard of Dizo ... They seem to be operating in Japan but made and designed in TW. Any more info about them? The Epic Pro is also the only frame I've seen where they show a visual representation of how Geo differs on all the sizes.
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UHM or high % of HM / UHM fibers generally isn't desirable anyway, as it produces an incredibly stiff, brittle frame. The really lightweight stuff usually uses less material and a mix of T700 & T800 or equivalents, but because they use less material they're often rather noodly and flexy, like the Aethos or worse the O2 VAM.
Dizo is interesting due to the dyneema ... It should make steerer failures much less likely, as well as shock absorption properties.
Also I'd never heard of Dizo ... They seem to be operating in Japan but made and designed in TW. Any more info about them? The Epic Pro is also the only frame I've seen where they show a visual representation of how Geo differs on all the sizes.
Dizo is the in-house brand of Advanced International Multitech Co., Ltd. (https://www.adgroup.com.tw/page/about/index.aspx?kind=172&lang=US) The Epic Pro has been shown for a while now but there is no indication as to when exactly it'll be available. Ultimately there is still next to no production capacity because factories are preoccupied with fulfilling orders for big brands. For example, BLKTEC is basically dormant because their factory is Trigon who produce components for Pinarello's MOST and Shimano's PRO.
And you're right on the stiffness aspect. The point of using stiffer material is not to create a stiffer frame but rather to meet the same stiffness targets while using less material.
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It seems odd that their house brand basically seems to operate in JP only ...
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The upcoming Elilee Blize (https://www.weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159888&p=1732211&hilit=blize#p1730922) will have an ultralight 680g variant constructed from a mixture of Toray T1100 and M40X. You also have the Dizo Epic Pro (https://www.slogdesign.com/dizo----slogdesign.html) which is constructed from Mitsubishi MR70 and Dyneema. These two won't be cheap and they certainly won't they sit at that 2-3K US sweetspot. According to Elilee, T1100 costs 5x of T800 and M40X costs 10x of T800...you do the math. For reference Elilee's top level EVO XXE (http://www.biketo.com/product/48397.html) triathlon frame retailed at around 4.5K US in China. Finally you have the not-as-high-end Pardus Robin Evo (https://www.biketo.com/product/48566.html) that employs a mixture of T1100, T800 and M40 for its carbon layup.
Do note that carbon supply is massively constrained worldwide which means that there is next to no excess material left for no name brands. Since imported material is hard to come by and there are actually export restrictions placed on top level T1100 due to military applications, most open mould makers source their material from Sinofibers who produce T1000 and T800 domestically in China. Sinofibers (https://guba.eastmoney.com/news,300777,883488993.html) has small batch T1100 & M40X equivalent material (ZT9 & ZM40X) on top of their recently commercialised T1000 but currently only T800 (ZT8) is mass produced and readily available.
hey thanks for that! Great info.
That Eilee Blize looks incredible and very similar weight to the Canyon ultimate CFR.
The Pardus also look interesting. But whatever I search on google I cannot find any place to buy any of the brands you mentioned? The Eilee doesn't exist apart from a picture on Twitter. The Pardus, no where to buy it or info about frameset :(
I would go for a Seka Exceed RDC but it is not aggressive enough, too much endurance.
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hey thanks for that! Great info.
That Eilee Blize looks incredible and very similar weight to the Canyon ultimate CFR.
The Pardus also look interesting. But whatever I search on google I cannot find any place to buy any of the brands you mentioned? The Eilee doesn't exist apart from a picture on Twitter. The Pardus, no where to buy it or info about frameset :(
I would go for a Seka Exceed RDC but it is not aggressive enough, too much endurance.
Unfortunately Elilee isn't retailed outside of Greater China at this time. Even Pardus is only really sold in SEA and MENA if we're talking overseas markets, but regardless I don't think that they're truly comparable to S-Works so you're not really missing out on that end. I really hope that Cycling100 eventually picks up other brands like Elilee, VFV (Voicevelo MTB), Builder Reserve (BR Wheels) and 0011 Cycle (THR Industries hubs). because there are a lot of great high end products that only the Chinese domestic market knows about.
Speaking of Elilee, apparently they're also working on a carbon crankset with a 28mm(M30?) carbon axle. That's Clavicula SE level technology right there.
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Unfortunately Elilee isn't retailed outside of Greater China at this time. Even Pardus is only really sold in SEA and MENA if we're talking overseas markets, but regardless I don't think that they're truly comparable to S-Works so you're not really missing out on that end. I really hope that Cycling100 eventually picks up other brands like Elilee, VFV (MTB) and Builder Reserve (BR Wheels) because there are a lot of great high end products that only the Chinese domestic market knows about.
Speaking of Elilee, apparently they're also working on a carbon crankset with a 28mm(M30?) carbon axle. That's Clavicula SE level technology right there.
Seems odd to do a 28mm axle. Because then DUB and 30mm compatible BBs won't work and they'll presumably have to make their own.
Also I thought Elilee used BB86?
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Seems odd to do a 28mm axle. Because then DUB and 30mm compatible BBs won't work and they'll presumably have to make their own.
Yeah, the only 28mm axle standard I can think of is the Praxis M30 which is partial 28mm NDS/30mm DS. But they wrote "28碳轴心" in a comment which clearly means 28mm carbon axle.
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Maybe someone in PR wrote it and got confused becaise DUB is 28.99mm ...
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Maybe someone in PR wrote it and got confused becaise DUB is 28.99mm ...
Good point! Fingers crossed it's DUB or at least M30
Also I thought Elilee used BB86?
I'm not sure which standard was on the EVO XXE but the upcoming Blize will use PF30
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PF30
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Yeah, the only 28mm axle standard I can think of is the Praxis M30 which is partial 28mm NDS/30mm DS. But they wrote "28碳轴心" in a comment which clearly means 28mm carbon axle.
some new details coming out (https://tiebac.baidu.com/p/7820822929)
cranks incl. spider: 30mm axle, 325g standard version 2388RMB, 290g top end version 4088RMB
frameset incl. seatpost & accessories(?): 1170g top end version 16800RMB, 1270g standard version 10800RMB
^frameset pricing includes cockpit, frame itself is "stiffer than Emonda"
frame only: 850g standard version, 680g top end version
^unpainted weight
cockpit: 210g
All the pricing is unofficial/introductory only, it'll most certainly go up at retail.
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Thanks for posting all these awesome products. If anything you been finding does become available or group buy I'm interested.
Are these be the converted prices to dollar?
Standard cranks $360
Top end cranks $618
Standard frame $1635
Top end frame $2540
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Thanks for posting all these awesome products. If anything you been finding does become available or group buy I'm interested.
Are these be the converted prices to dollar?
Standard cranks $360
Top end cranks $618
Standard frame $1635
Top end frame $2540
The values will vary due to exchange rates and these unofficial figures are purely speculative, I’m just sharing what I read on another forum
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Sign me up as interested as well if you hear anything... Trying to wrap my head around that forum link. ALMOST want to try to message "Playing the dishes of miscellaneous riding" and see if they can help a girl out, as it were.
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Sign me up as interested as well if you hear anything... Trying to wrap my head around that forum link. ALMOST want to try to message "Playing the dishes of miscellaneous riding" and see if they can help a girl out, as it were.
That’s the OP’s username
You can’t sign up to Tieba without a Chinese phone number
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Yeah thought it was a funny translation of a normal username :). Bummer to hear about the signup catch tho!
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The upcoming Elilee Blize (https://www.weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159888&p=1732211&hilit=blize#p1730922) will have an ultralight 680g variant constructed from a mixture of Toray T1100 and M40X. You also have the Dizo Epic Pro (https://www.slogdesign.com/dizo----slogdesign.html) which is constructed from Mitsubishi MR70 and Dyneema. These two won't be cheap and they certainly won't they sit at that 2-3K US sweetspot. According to Elilee, T1100 costs 5x of T800 and M40X costs 10x of T800...you do the math. For reference Elilee's top level EVO XXE (http://www.biketo.com/product/48397.html) triathlon frame retailed at around 4.5K US in China. Finally you have the not-as-high-end Pardus Robin Evo (https://www.biketo.com/product/48566.html) that employs a mixture of T1100, T800 and M40 for its carbon layup.
Do note that carbon supply is massively constrained worldwide which means that there is next to no excess material left for no name brands. Since imported material is hard to come by and there are actually export restrictions placed on top level T1100 due to military applications, most open mould makers source their material from Sinofibers who produce T1000 and T800 domestically in China. Sinofibers (https://guba.eastmoney.com/news,300777,883488993.html) has small batch T1100 & M40X equivalent material (ZT9 & ZM40X) on top of their recently commercialised T1000 but currently only T800 (ZT8) is mass produced and readily available. Besides Sinofibers, Tianshun (http://hlj.ifeng.com/a/20170503/5627282_0.shtml) produce T800 equivalent material (TS800) and are also working on their own T1000.
Dizo Epic Pro became Dizo Actus. Design changed quite a bit. Bit less aero, 32mm clearance, Dyneema gone, head tube and chainstays totally different, no details of carbon used. They're talking about 'NORC' technology - without specifying what exactly it is.
Definitely not one for people who are long of leg and short of upper body, like me. XL is 560 stack and 408 reach, which is similar to the Pardus Spark Evo.
https://dizobike.com/bikes/actus/
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Dizo Epic Pro became Dizo Actus. Design changed quite a bit. Bit less aero, 32mm clearance, Dyneema gone, head tube and chainstays totally different, no details of carbon used. They're talking about 'NORC' technology - without specifying what exactly it is.
Definitely not one for people who are long of leg and short of upper body, like me. XL is 560 stack and 408 reach, which is similar to the Pardus Spark Evo.
https://dizobike.com/bikes/actus/
Sheesh, where was this frame 5 bike builds ago???
Dizo Actus
Size: Medium
Reach: 395
Stack: 540
Where...do...I...sign...up??
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Pricing not released yet, but based on the Grover being €1500-1700, I'd guess this will be €2-2.3k, as they're claiming various tech.
But maybe they'll want to keep it sub 2k.
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I'm sure that's a great value, all things considered. But I think I'd rather a SEKA now that they make a 130mm stem-length integrated cockpit.
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I'm sure that's a great value, all things considered. But I think I'd rather a SEKA now that they make a 130mm stem-length integrated cockpit.
But if you want low stack, you won't get that with the Exceed.
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But if you want low stack, you won't get that with the Exceed.
100% Correct, and one of the main reasons I've stayed away from them.
I meant in terms of spending $2000 for a frameset...
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Looking at the geometry chart, did they draw the picture wrong? 'k' looks like stack-bb drop... If that's the case it's pretty upright.
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Looking at the geometry chart, did they draw the picture wrong? 'k' looks like stack-bb drop... If that's the case it's pretty upright.
Geo chart is just drawn wrongly. There's no way their XXS has 570mm stack.
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next gen Spark EVO
(https://i.imgur.com/SQKUiTL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iRKxmiH.jpg)
all-new Super EVO
(https://i.imgur.com/80AHGhb.jpg)
Both will be built with the same UHMS material and EPS+ process as the Robin EVO. The current gen Spark EVO is HMS EPS+ while the Super EVO is essentially a Robin EVO but with endurance geometry. Pardus will also take the current gen Spark EVO frame mould (shared w/ Storck Aerfast 4 & Aerfast 3) and make a Spark Sport that's downgraded to HS EPS+.
(https://i.imgur.com/W8Wpm7B.jpg)
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That black Super EVO looks like a real competitor to Canyons ultimate CFR if using similar sort of carbon fiber. But not possible to buy for Europeans?
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Damn. New Spark EVO looks great ... albeit I suspect it'll still be either too low or too long for me.
I guess pictured is their L (525 Seat Tube on current one). Head tube looks quite a bit taller than before, but top tube also looks longer.
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I love long and low.
Wait...what!?
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Btw what are the wheels it's running? I can't make out the decal. Looks unfamiliar.
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Btw what are the wheels it's running? I can't make out the decal. Looks unfamiliar.
Both next gen Spark EVO and Super EVO are running SCOM wheels, the former has the more expensive model
SCOM sponsors a couple Pardus pro teams in China
There's this rim brake Robin EVO, currently exclusive for the iGPSPORT team
(https://i.imgur.com/dvT4QdI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jJoPeqM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WzpnJFY.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/meEdNsT.jpg)
They also had a rim brake version of the current gen Spark EVO codenamed C7 that was made for the Olympics (Chinese national team mandates rim brakes). I don't it'll come to market though.
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Both next gen Spark EVO and Super EVO are running SCOM wheels, the former has the more expensive model
SCOM sponsors a couple Pardus pro teams in China
Their 67s are decently light, at 1540g. Other sizes not all that light.
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Elilee carbon crankset has passed SGS certification, product launch next week
(https://i.imgur.com/4GxIw4T.jpg)
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Elilee carbon crankset has passed SGS certification, product launch next week
Where would one even try to find this as a European citizen?
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Where would one even try to find this as a European citizen?
No international retailers atm so I personally wouldn't bother, it's not worth the hassle buying through intermediaries
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Lengths: 165mm, 167.5mm, 170mm, 172.5mm
Axle Diameter: 28mm Propreitary w/ DUB or 30mm shims, 24mm Titanium
Q-Factor: 149mm
Chainline: 44.5mm (2x)
PM spider options: XCadey (420g), Sigeyi (424g), Power2Max (430g)
sans-PM weight: 320g not incl. 4-arm or 5-arm spiders
(https://i.imgur.com/h5BtTB2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/klauTlg.jpg)
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So they actually went with a 28mm spindle ... WHYYYYYYYY
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So they actually went with a 28mm spindle ... WHYYYYYYYY
easy conversion to DUB and 30mm BBs with the protective reducer to prevent axle from grinding against the bearings.
You still get the native 24mm support (which is super nice)
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You still get the native 24mm support (which is super nice)
We'll see about their titanium axled 24mm version ... a lot of those have gone wrong. But then "we'll see" generally.
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@StiffWeenies - do you know if Elilee are planning a version with MTB 52mm boost chainline?
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@StiffWeenies - do you know if Elilee are planning a version with MTB 52mm boost chainline?
A MTB version is planned, not sure about the specs though
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A MTB version is planned, not sure about the specs though
Thanks. I guess they'll only do them with the 24mm Ti spindle anyway, since virtually all MTBs are either BB92 or BSA73.
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Btw I hope these cranks aren't made by TopCarbon (judging by recent forum users' experiences) .. I think they make Elilee's OSPW and were maybe responsible for one of their concept bikes too.
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next gen Spark EVO (https://pardusbicycle.com/road/spark/113.html), prev gen Spark EVO Rim (https://pardusbicycle.com/road/spark/88.html), Robin EVO Rim (https://pardusbicycle.com/road/robin/115.html), and Super EVO (https://pardusbicycle.com/road/super/112.html) are now out
couple takeaways:
1. new Spark EVO geometry is a little less aggressive, Super EVO geo is very relaxed, perhaps too relaxed
2. Super EVO uses 80% T1100 in its layup for a 680g painted size M frame (real world 700g?) and 290g fork
3. new Spark EVO uses 86% T800 & M40 in its layup for a 950g painted size M frame
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How would someone be able to ride the super evo? The reach is so close I'd have constant bruises on my knees and thighs from bashing them on my handlebars.
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Where are these frames to buy outside of china? Seems they don' have any distributor for the EU...
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How would someone be able to ride the super evo? The reach is so close I'd have constant bruises on my knees and thighs from bashing them on my handlebars.
It's about as dedicated a climbing frame as you're going to get. Typically they're 'super compact' rather than being compact (in the Burrows sense). If you need more length you're expected to compensate with stem. Not many produced now though. Definitely old new school geo on these Pardus ... very long and low race bike (even the new one is still), and a super compact geo climbing bike.
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Where are these frames to buy outside of china? Seems they don' have any distributor for the EU...
You can buy framesets in Dubai. Don't think they'll be distributed any time soon in the EU ... their parent make too much stuff for larger brands working that market, some of which are Pardus rebrands (Storck).
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Hi, I just recently read this topic a noticed the questions about Pardus EU distributor. I am from Czech republic and we have our Pardus distributor. I think they have been on the market for about 6 years, maybe more. Also some of Czech cycling teams are raiding these frames and it has a good reviews here :)
https://pardus-bike.cz/
But i think they webistes are only in czech :/