Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: davidriddel on November 20, 2014, 05:53:37 PM
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Single Speeding a 29er Full Rigid - Lessons Identified
G'day all,
(http://s4.postimg.org/ckwkvzucd/IMG_2186.jpg)
I thought that I would give my experiences of building my first Chinese carbon bike.
I had been toying around with the idea of building a single speed carbon bike as an experiment to see just how light a bike I could produce. After taking much flak from others about the perceived risks of Chinese carbon, I did a bit of research, and decided to take the plunge. I went with Yoeleo because of the quick responses to all of my initial questions from ‘Leo’, the quality website, and their qwerky youtube videos (with the pretty Chinese girl!).
The frame that I ended up with is the YCMSF05 http://www.yoeleobike.com/29er-carbon-frame-for-mountain-bike.html . Because this was an experiment, I also went with a rigid fork, with an idea that if I run tubeless 2.25 tyres at 30 psi or less, I’m part of the way towards the cushioning of a “fat bike”. OK – a fairly slim fat bike. So this was never going to be an all mountain, rocky boulder strewn descent type of bike, but one for fire trails and the developed single track here in Canberra used for international 24 hrs races. (I’ve had a number of concussions over the last 35 years of riding, so I’m not a fan of jumps per se...)
How does it ride? - To cut a long story short, I was 4th in the Open single speed category in a recent 50 kms (~30 miles) cross country race with 500+ competitors. (I should point out that there were only 7 entries in the single speed category!) I was the only full rigid rider in the race...
(http://s30.postimg.org/epst2c7n5/IMG_2405.jpg)
Since having the full rigid single speed, I’ve ridden over 650 kms (~400 miles), all dirt, and as of a few days ago, did over 9,000 feet of climbing in 4 rides towards the 29,000+ feet Strava ‘Everest’ climb challenge (the remainder of the climbing was completed on my cyclocross).
Oh, and the frame, handlebars and rigid fork take a thrashing, as I weight over 220 lbs in lycra... (not a pretty look!!)
So firstly – my Chinese carbon is meeting my expectations, and far exceeding those of the detractors...
My order from Yoeleo cost me $1,425 USD, and comprised of:
• YCMSF05 - 29er hardtail frame
• Y-F-MTB-29 - rigid fork
• MTB-H2 Integrated handlebars
• Y-W29-23.5-30C-881 - 30mm / 23.5mm clincher wheelset, with aerospokes and Novatec D881SB D882SB Hubs (these are the 4 in 1 that I wanted for flexibity to reuse for bike N+1 – a planned dually with a potential thru axle)
• CFSP02 - Seat post
(http://s30.postimg.org/qvs46yz01/10325598_640276112717403_83061997975735849_n.jpg)
To create chain tension to ‘single speed’ the bike, I used the “Beer Components” eccentric bottom bracket. This necessitated that I ordered the frame from Yoeleo with a BB30 in lieu of a BSA.
Things would have worked out fine up until the point where I was having a chat in my LBS, and saw that they had a pile of SRAM XX cranksets for half price. Being a 24mm spindle, I was assured that the SRAM XX would work within the BeerComponents EBB30. That’s when I discovered the difference of the 24mm SRAM GXP and 24mm Shimano HollowTechII (which really is what the EBB30 was compatible with). A change of bearings in the EBB30 by the LBS to work with the GXP system has never given me full satisfaction—there is a little lateral slop. None of the other four LBS could offer a solution. It has been fine to ride, but a little frustrating to know there is the 0.5mm slop. The next disaster was that the big ring that came stock with the SRAM XX actually would grind into the chainstay on all but the most extreme rotation of the EBB30—meaning that the whole point of the eccentric bottom bracket (its rotation to obtain the chain tension)—was negated. So it was onto chainreactioncycles.com to order a smaller chain ring. Of course, the SRAM XX is a 120BCD (probably the largest bolt hole diameter of any MTB crankset), so the smallest ring I could get was 37T.
(http://s18.postimg.org/lt7soegnd/IMG_2228.jpg)
Fitting all of that gave me about 150 degrees of rotation of the EBB30 before I was within 3mm of the ring grinding the chainstay (the minimum tolerance I was comfortable with). I changed out the original Shimano 10 speed chain that I was going to use to a meaty 1/8” Gusset Slink Half Link Chain (in black of course!). I went with a half link chain to get more adjustment ability, and also to carry my weight when I stomp on the pedals climbing (being a single speed and all!). The chain is over 400 gms (0.9 lbs!!) in weight, but gives me confidence when stomping about on the pedals when I’m over 10 miles from a road (ie, a long walk back). That being said, I always ride with a heavy duty chain breaker and a few spare links in the tool container on the frame...
(http://s16.postimg.org/s7s2pse1h/10154037_640276162717398_4135001961081317133_n.jpg)
The weight? In the original photo, running tubeless, and with the original Shimano 10 speed chain and no bottle cages (also carbon of course!), it weighed 8.7 kgs (19.2 lbs). She is a little heavier now with the half link chain and tool container, but not much.
I aim to maintain a matt black (UD) style on N+1, N=2, ... bikes as well.
I will be replacing the SRAM XX crankset with a Shimano XT (104BCD), with an aftermarket 30T chain ring in the near future (the SRAM XX to go to the N+1 project – a dually).
(http://s11.postimg.org/arf4949ar/IMG_2349.jpg)
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Nice write up, thanks for sharing.
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Top write up. Thanks for making the effort here. Really appreciate it!!
I'm laboring over my first dive off the chiner bridge, hoping the bungy is tied tight to my harness tight.
I'm looking for exactly what you've built up, essentially. Carbon hard tail, carbon rigid fork, beer EBB. I'm looking at the IP-507, M-092, ORION, an some others. I've got the added distraction that I love my SE Stout. I don't know exactly what I love about it exactly, the geo, the steel, the color, the bulletproof feel. I want to love my next build even more. I don't want to worry when a rock kicks up. I don't want to think of it as a disposable, temporary ride. I want to think of it as the ride that lets me push a bigger cog, and climb a couple hills that I current can't clear.
Part of me wants to just go high quality steel, or Ti. But, this carbon think is so fresh. It's alluring.
You have given me some confidence, thanks for that. Bloody hell - concussions? Sorry to hear that. Some might say it's the concussions that cause you to ride a rigid single. But, you and I know both know, unless you live in a place full of rocks, single-rigid is close to bliss. Railing corners is just one of the lovely parts of it, no dipping in the corners. Of course, the low volume tubeless help.
Cheers - Gene
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davidriddel, thanks for the write up! Can you give me your feedback on the carbon fork? Does it have plenty of tires space for say maybe a 2.4? Does Yoleo offer these forks with a 15mm axle because I don't see one on their website?
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G'day Gene,
Good luck with your SS rigid project. The take-aways from me are to:
- get the smooth bore BB receiver in the frame, rather than the threaded BSA such that you can rotate the BeerComponents EBB30;
- verify the EBB bearings are for HollowTechII (or similar) 24 mm straight through spindle (SRAM GXP/Truvativ need special bearings I believe); and
- check your chain ring size will give you the most adjustment of the EBB30 possible without the ring impacting the chain guide.
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Hello David,
Thanks again for your post. I'll say it again, taking the time to post your experience is commendable.
I want to make sure I understand your take-aways, so I have some questions.
get the smooth bore BB receiver in the frame, rather than the threaded BSA such that you can rotate the BeerComponents EBB30;
Will get a frame with the BB30 bottom bracket shell. The IP-256, IP-057, M-092, ORION have that option. Most seem to. Is there anything special that needs to be requested here? Shall I just make sure it's BB30, and not BSA?
verify the EBB bearings are for HollowTechII (or similar) 24 mm straight through spindle (SRAM GXP/Truvativ need special bearings I believe)
Who do I verify this with? Beer Components? Can you explain or post pics of what didn't work with the GPX crank? Seems strange that one 24mm crank works and another doesn't. And too bad you couldn't use the Phil Wood bearings in the Beer EBB. Perhaps you should go HollowTechII.
check your chain ring size will give you the most adjustment of the EBB30 possible without the ring impacting the chain guide.
I run 34T on the front, if I suddenly get really strong, I might go to 36T, but I doubt it. I'm thinking that will fit in general. What do you think?
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As for item 2 above, I see this on the team bear site (http://beercomponents.com/?page_id=588)
"This eccentric will require a crank with a 24mm Spindle. Shimano, SRAM GXP, FSA…24mm spindles only."
Seems like it should have worked. Clearly, it didn't. They do mention this
"SRAM Truvativ Shim"
Perhaps that is what you need? Did do you have this
*http://www.jensonusa.com/Cranksets/SRAM-XX1-GXP-Crankset-2013*
I searched for details, and found something about the non-drive side being 22 mm for spindle diameter. And that matches what Team Beer has for you.
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G'day stout_to_carbon,
BB30 is fine as it is not threaded. All BB30 receivers should be the same I believe.
Without a word of a lie, I have not seen that beercomponents SRAM shim before--that's the probable solution. But if it does not push the drive side out a mm of more, there is still the clearance issue with a SRAM XX (120BCD - lowest chainring is about 37T).
I can push a 2.5mm allen key in the gap between the sacrificial piece of adhesive aluminium I fitted on an inch lench of the chainstay (the aluminium is for psychological use only!)
(http://s10.postimg.org/ebhtm37yx/IMG_0182.jpg)
(http://s4.postimg.org/dtpo61i0t/IMG_0183.jpg)
I'm already committed to changing out my SRAM XX to replace it with a SHIMANO XT crankset that I'll remove the inner ring outright, and replace the big ring with a 30T narrow wide (ordered yesterday from chainreaction). The SRAM XX will be re-constituted to its original guise to be fitted to N+1, which is to be a chiner 29er dually after I finish my daughter's 650b chiner dually...
You know - last night I was looking at the dropouts of the frame, and realised that both left and right sides were actually aluminium screwed into the frame. If we found someone who wanted to manufacture horizontal form fit replacements, we wouldn't need EBBs at all...
(http://s30.postimg.org/yrpfkrpkh/IMG_0176.jpg)
(http://s29.postimg.org/7fgry81t3/IMG_0179.jpg)
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You know - last night I was looking at the dropouts of the frame, and realised that both left and right sides were actually aluminium screwed into the frame. If we found someone who wanted to manufacture horizontal form fit replacements, we wouldn't need EBBs at all...
(http://s30.postimg.org/yrpfkrpkh/IMG_0176.jpg)
(http://s29.postimg.org/7fgry81t3/IMG_0179.jpg)
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That is a brilliant idea! Machinists please step up!
Andy
IP 036
LTK 023
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I have a brother who is a machinist. What would people be willing to pay for a set of these?
Are they the same as the IP-256 drop outs? Meaning, can I use my drop outs as a template?
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Vipassana I myself don't ride SS so perhaps I shouldn't have asked machinists to step up(my apologies). BUT if I did ride SS I would be hiring your man to machine me some of those dropouts and I would be willing to pay a pretty penny as I think that's a great way to attack the chain tension design. Thanks for responding.
Andy
IP 036
LTK 023
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For a form fit horizontal 'drop out' to single speed a chiner hard-tail frame - I'd pay $50USD easy...
As a note of caution however, I'd be keen to see the engineering, as the stress on the rear is going to be greater due to the additional leverage on the frame.
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G'day Squishee,
Regarding the 29er rigid fork - I only saw the 9mm QR offered by Yoeleo (Y-F-MTB-29).
I checked, and I'm running 2.20 at present, with plenty of clearance. I've taken a few photos--it looks like the gap at the top of tyre level is in the order of 65m between the two legs of the fork..
(http://s12.postimg.org/g8wvm9ngd/IMG_0185.jpg)
(http://s9.postimg.org/5fm936jrj/IMG_0187.jpg)
(http://s27.postimg.org/f5kkfrxrn/IMG_0189.jpg)
(http://s27.postimg.org/463yhwwqb/IMG_0190.jpg)
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G'day Squishee,
Regarding the 29er rigid fork - I only saw the 9mm QR offered by Yoeleo (Y-F-MTB-29).
I checked, and I'm running 2.20 at present, with plenty of clearance. I've taken a few photos--it looks like the gap at the top of tyre level is in the order of 65m between the two legs of the fork..
Thank you for taking the photos and measurements. I'll be looking to purchase one of these in the future now that I know it'll handle a 2.4.
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Hey everyone,
I happened to come across this thread as I am looking at building a carbon SS this year. I also happen to be a machinist... I wanted to see if there was still interest in horizontal drops? Also wanted to confirm the frame with the replaceable drops. I looked at Yoeleo's website and the picture of the frame shows one piece drops that are part of the frame, anybody know if its a design change?
While I am here, does anyone have a frame they are selling? I would be willing to take a used one to start designing drops, if not any suggestions on which company to buy from. I look forward to getting your input.
Jake
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Hi Jake, I'm sure there are people who want SS horizontal dropouts, you just don't see them on the forums much. When you do, many use the eccentric BB to take up the chain slack. A horizontal dropout would be a simpler, possibly cheaper, solution for those riders.
The IP-256 & IP-057 are the most popular frames right now, both have replaceable rear dropouts, they may even be the same parts for both frames. I believe they are the same for my IP-036 & IP-057. If you are interested in machining drop outs, you don't need a whole frame, you could get a set of thru axle drop outs and get the size, shape, and mounting from there.
If you still want to order a frame, XMIplay.com is very popular from many members on this forum. However, there are many sellers on eBay is common as well.
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Thanks for the info CD. I am looking at building my own ss now, once under way ill post the build and try to get to prototyping some drops.
Jake
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Can we get another update on how the bike is holding up? How's the fork doing? Also what do you think of the integrated bars
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speaking of GXP crankset in an EBB: did you guys consider using wave washers on both sides?
it's probably good enough to take up 1-1.5mm of extra spindle length and you can probably stack two if one is not enough :)
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I've just ordered parts to complete a chiner singlespeed.
Frame will be a Workswell M062, SID RLC fork and an Origin8 EBB. I think the short chainstay on the M062 will work great on a SS.
I'll be transferring the rest of my parts over from an On One Scandal, which had unfortunately developed a lot of corrosion, and the forks had developed a gouge in them due to an issue with the headset.
The chap at Workswell talked me into a PF30 rather than a BB30, but I think something may have been lost in translation, so hopefully it all goes together fine, and there's enough meat around the BB to hold this type of BB.
Machining horizontal dropouts could be a good way to go with these frames (I work for a machine shop) I wonder how many different types of drop out fittings there are on these Chinese frames?
David, I'm in Aus too (Brisbane). Was Just down in Canberra a few weeks ago and loved the trails there. Sparrow hill is perfect for a rigid SS!
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For a form fit horizontal 'drop out' to single speed a chiner hard-tail frame - I'd pay $50USD easy...
As a note of caution however, I'd be keen to see the engineering, as the stress on the rear is going to be greater due to the additional leverage on the frame.
I think it would have to be a very short slot. Say 15mm max. I think if you use a half link you'd need 12.7mm (1/2") of adjustment.
Looks like those drop outs are only held in by a couple of m4 screws. So you wouldn't want to over stress these by moving the load too far away.
David I'd be interested to hear how your Beer EBB is holding up.