Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => Metal Frames => Topic started by: tripleDot on July 14, 2018, 01:13:28 AM
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A few months ago, I finally went ahead with a project that I had been considering for quite a number of years. I got my custom Titanium bike frame built. This is gonna be my road/gravel/touring/bikepacking bike.
With a lot of research, I know which Chinese Ti frame builder I want to go with, my problem is that the company build according to customer specs and I'm just not knowledgeable with the technical details. Luckily, Peter of Carbon Speed had partnered with this company and I went through him instead. I know it costs a bit more but I needed the assistance. Plus I have a few transactions with him before and he's proven to be very reliable.
I still haven't got the frame yet but Peter had sent me some pictures and it is ready for shipping.
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Wow ! That is very interesting. I look forward to see your build.
I did some research too last year, but without knowing who to ask for it, I dropped it.
Is it internal routing ?
Was it custom built on some of yours bike fit measurements?
What is the frame size, and how much does it weight ?
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Yes, I had it done with internal routing. You can see the holes in the pictures. I did request a DI2 and dropper post compatible (more for future-proofing), although I still have to see it if it was incorporated.
The geometry was largely copied from the Jamis Renegade Exploit (chromoly) with some tweaking. Most notable tweak is the horizontal dropout. I chose the Exploit because it shared the same geometry as the Jamis Renegade Exile (the aluminum version) which I have riden and really loved. Also the Exploit being of chomoly tubing is much closer to the Ti tubing. As for Ti tubing size, I referenced it with a friend's Salsa Ti bike (I forgot which model).
Sizing is size 54 of the Exploit. Weight, no info yet... haven't landed yet.
Edit:
In case you want to know, frame tube diameters were based on Salsa Ti Colossal.
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Sweet looking frame!!!!
Can I ask how much it costed you?
Thanks!
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For the specs and features I commissioned... US$670, excluding shipping. Cost includes the thru axle/rd/disc brake adaptors (not sure what's it called), axle and custom etched art work/lettering.
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Hi tripleDot, I'm new to this site and joined just to ask about your frame. I am in the market for something similar so sorry about all the questions.
Have you had a chance to weigh it?
2.5Al6V tubing I'm assuming?
Max tire clearance?
Is the headtube tapered?
What did shipping and up costing?
Who should I contact when I want to do something similar?
Thanks,
FTM
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It's been a while and here's why... the local customs decided to screw me up by holding the package for a couple of months and if that wasn't enough, I had to pay a US$250 ransom (duties, VAT and some other charges). It is still cheaper than going for a branded Ti frame.
I just literally came back from the Post office and have yet to open the package. Will post updates tomorrow.
@Flying Trunk Monkey,
Weight to be announce.
Yes, 2.5Al6V tubings.
Max tire clearance is 700x42c.
Yes, tapered headtube and internal cabling.
Shipping via EMS was, I believe around US$60... I'm in Asia so it would be higher if you're in America or Europe.
Contact: Peter of Carbon Speed.
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You didn't have such problem with carbon frames right ?
Was titanium the reason ?
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You didn't have such problem with carbon frames right ?
Was titanium the reason ?
Yes, never had this problem with the carbon frames. But definitely nothing to do with this being Titanium. I still have all the boxes from Peter, 5 of them, 3 carbon frames, this Ti frame and carbon wheelset. None of them have specified what material, it just "bicycle frame", "bicycle fork", "bicycle wheelset", etc.
As per EMS customer service, it was random. What bothered me was it was the customs office of another city. It made me questions their jurisdiction but I'm left with a take it or leave situation. My package is held by people who are 1.5hrs away by plane. And I'm afraid that if I call the attention of the local customs, they'll probably just screw me a second time. I just charged it to experience.
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Here's the weight, just a tad shy of 2kg, 1.935kg to be exact.
Was trying to upload a picture but I kept getting an "upload folder is full".
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tripleDot,
Thanks for getting back to me, I'm looking forward to seeing what you think when you get it built. I think I'm in a similar position as you regarding needing help to facilitate a design and the process as a whole. Considering your pre-shipping price came to $670 I think that whatever price Peter's involvement added was worth it. Regarding Peter did you use the petercycles@foxmail.com email to contact him?
Is there anything you would have done differently in the process?
FTM
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@FTM, yes, that is the correct email address of Peter of Carbon Speed.
As for the process, I don't think there was anything out of the ordinary. The only difference is I communicate with Peter (who by the way is very good in English) and he communicates with the manufacturer, most probably in their native toungue. Based on my researches and readings, folks who went direct have exchanged dozens of email going back & forth for a month or so with the plans before finally building the frame. In my case, the planning stage was about a month but less than a dozen emails between me & Peter. My guess is that Peter, having experience with building frames understands my needs and wants, fleshed out the details with the manufacturers. Which is exactly what I needed.
These are what I did to get this project done.
- supply geometry of bike I wanted copied,
- supply tube diameters for each part,
- indicates any tube preferences, like ovalized chainstay, etc.
- list of features and/or preferences
For the tube diameter, Peter can actually do that but I just happened to have a source that I wanted to use.
* Bonus from my research. The manufacturer allows you a custom name/logo laser etched to your headtube & toptube. Don't forget to avail this freebie.
If you are designing from scratch, then you might have to talk with Peter specifically on that plan.
Edit:
Is there anything you would have done differently in the process?
FTM
Sort of misread your question before. If there were any process that I would have done differently it would have been:
a. be specific with the size of the custom logo/name. I kinda felt one is a tad too small while the other a tad too large for my liking.
b. chainstay clearance for chainring, l had it made for 2x road crank but now seriously considering going mtb 1x. But it seems I'm limited to a 40T chainring, and I wanted a 42T or 44T oval. While this is still not final as parts have yet to arrive. Still I wished I have foresee this.
c. I consciously did not specify the Ti finish as raw finished (default) was my choice. However, if you want it in a different finish, you have to specify as Peter didn't ask (probably forgot).
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Nice ! Too sad there is no pictures.
Why not post the images on imgur.com (http://imgur.com) and link them here with the img tag ?
You can find this link directly on imgur after posting an image.
On the top right corner of the image, in the Get Share links, then copy the BBCode.
Do not forget to set the width to avoid too big pictures, eg:
[ img width=800]https://imgur.com...[ /img]
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Here's a few picts of some details.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/tripleDot/DSC_0811.jpg)
Weight of frame (in grams) with the plastic TA for shipping. Aluminum TA is 65 grams. Frame with aluminum TA is 1950 grams.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/tripleDot/DSC_0812.jpg)
Welding details. IIRC, l did supply a photo of a weld finish that l wanted. And they came pretty close.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/tripleDot/DSC_0813.jpg)
"Ning-Jing", "Serenity" in Chinese. My custom logo for the headtube.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/tripleDot/DSC_0814.jpg)
Underside of downtube, internal cabling.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/tripleDot/DSC_0815.jpg)
Sliding dropout/disc brake bracket. With rack/fender boses.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/tripleDot/DSC_0816.jpg)
Threaded BB.
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Thank you for the pictures!
Titanium is so beautiful :D
I didn't know you could choose the welding type.
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Thank you for the pictures!
Titanium is so beautiful :D
I didn't know you could choose the welding type.
You're welcome.
Not the welding type per se but rather filing the weld smooth.
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tripleDot ,
Man that is pretty, you must be excited. I came close to buying a Lynskey Cooper CX frame fora good price on eBay about three weeks ago. The only reason I didn't is because it wasn't what I REALLY wanted. The problem is that nobody made what I really wanted. I'm glad I found your post, now I can design what I want for a great price ...I'm looking forward to it. The price you paid for your frame is very close to what the Lynskey would have cost me.
A couple of more questions
1) Do you know if butted tubing is available
2) What type of bottom bracket is that?
3) If you have it available can you tell me what the frame specs are, geometry and tubing size? That would give me a reference for a design starting point as well as visually.
Once again, great looking frame.
FTH
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FTH, I can relate to your dilemma of finding a branded Ti frame at a very nice price only to realize it's not what you wanted. There's always the feeling of I don't want to be stuck with or without that features I need or want.
1. I did asked Peter about butted frames but he didn't answer and I didn't press the issue. Although I have read a few guys saying that this manufacturer don't do butting. Still, these guys did not have any problems with their frames so I didn't pursue it.
2. I had my bb threaded for Shimano cranks, I believe it's BSA. But you can have it in other standard, even one of those Press Fits.
3. I copied the geometry of Jamis Renegade Exploit size 54. You can download it's geo sheet from the Jamis website. I initially wanted to copy the Niner RLT (geo sheet Niner) but they're very similar to the Exploit and I've ridden the Exploit's aluminum brother (Exile), loved it, and went with Exploit. You can really just check out most any of the popular brands, they have geo sheets of their bikes open for scrutiny & download. As for tube size, l measured a friend's Salsa Ti Colossal. I'll try to find my email to Peter regarding the tube sizes. But you can have Peter take care of tube size.
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As of the moment...
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Bike components:
Frame: Custom Ti gravel - Carbon Speed
Fork: Carbon Speed cf Gravel fork (disc)
Group set: Shimano XT 1x11
Chainring: Stone 42T narrow-wide
Wheelset: Stan's ZTR Crest MK3 29er rims,
DT Swiss 350 classic hubs thru-axle,
Pillar spokes & nipples
Tires: Continental CycloXKing 700x35c
Headset: Token Problem Solver,
Control Tech compression plug
Stem: On-One 70mm Hot Box
Handle Bar: Crank Brothers Cobalt 3 600mm
Pedals: Crank Brothers Candy 2 (silver)
Saddle: Brooks Cambium C17 All-Wheather
Seat Post: Carbon Speed cf
Seat Clamp: Six Pack
Bottle Cages: Carbon Speed cf
Grips: WTB Padloc
Total weight: 9.6kg
Estimated cost: around US$1,900.00
Very happy with it, although I still have a couple of problems that needed to be fixed. First, I got a post-mount fork and XT brakes (flat mount I believe)... I need to get an adaptor as I completely missed this one. Second, my rear tire's tubeless set up is leaking air. Will have to check it again.
Very happy because the chainring clearance for single ring was quite big. I believe that l can fit a 48T round or a 46T oval ring. The total weight was a very pleasant surprise. My initial estimate was around 12kg but it came shy of 10kg. And it feels light when pedaling, l did a short 5km ride on it.
Full ride review would have to wait though.
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tripleDot,
Awesome bike. Do you recall what that fork weighs or what the max tire clearance on it is?
Sadly my attempts to reach Peter at CS (three or four emails to two different email addresses as well a Facebook Messenger) the last few weeks have met with no reply. It sucks because I'm looking at two project and I need two frames as well as rims and other parts.
FTM
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Thanks FTM.
Unfortunately, l was not able to weigh the fork but it was very light. It is an FK-029, the companion fork of CS GR-029 Gravel frame. As per Carbon Speed listing the max tire is 700x40c. I also shoot Peter a PM regarding you trying to reach him.
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A few more pics with chainring clearance.
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Finally got it out on a full ride. Joined the Audax Rizal 200km, considered to be the hardest brevet in the Philippines. It's a climb-infested route. I didn't finish, didn't make the last checkpoint cutoff time. Overall, I rode some 180km. With 20km to go and pretty much 12km of climbs, the setting sun and an hour to cutoff time, I decide to throw in the towel. It was a fun ride, very nice weather and lots of scenic views, so not finishing wasn't that big of a deal.
It was a sweet ride. The frame felt good. Not much to say about speeding on flats as the route were mostly climbs and descends. Double the pain but double the fun. The bike is confidence inspiring during descends. I personally usually hold back on my descends as I'm not the most skilled in this department (usually just doing under 40kph) but was hitting 50's on this bike. Went thru a section of unfinished road (lots of rocks) at 35kph and still felt confident doing it. The roadies behind me were just amazed with what I did. 35c tires doing that. There were also a few sections of the road that felt rough on descends but the titanium does absords the vibration pretty nice. At the end of the day, it didn't felt too harsh on the body.
Assessing on why l didn't finish, l came to the conclusion that I should have used my old 38T chainring instead of the untested new 42T. I could've climb faster, not much flat for the 42T to shine. Also did a quick examination on the frame to check for visible cracks or damages, everything checks out well. Bottom line, I love this bike.
A couple of pics from Audax Rizal.
Last pic also in Rizal but not part of Audax.
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Thanks for the report !
Do you feel a big difference compared to riding a carbon frame ?
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@Carbonazza, if you mean by difference in the material absorbing vibrations, a.k.a. harshness of the ride. It is kind'a hard to explain. It's hardly noticeable, at least for me. The only way I know how to compare it was after doing 150km on a cf road bike and 200km on a cf plus bike (both mostly flat), l pretty much went to bed tired. For this ride, I was still able to spent an hour on dinner and a bottle of beer. Spend another hour on checking my friends' ride status on Facebook before hitting the sack at 9pm. And surprisingly, I was awake next morning at 5 and feeling good. I thought I'd sleep past 8 or 9 after that ride. And then I took another 60km ride (3rd pic above). For the record, I rode 60km on Friday, did 180km on Saturday and another 60km on Sunday.
I guess it's not felt so much while riding but you just feel better after the ride.
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tripleDot,
Hey man, I hope you're still enjoying that ride. I'm still trying to figure out what I want exactly. I know your design was heavily influenced by the Jamis Renegade Exploit. I'm trying to start a spreadsheet for bikes with geometry similar to what I'd like. Previously you mentioned that you might have a reference to the tube sizes you spec'd. Do you still have that info anywhere?
Thanks,
FTM
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Hi FTM,
Here's the tube diameters I used. These figures are actually based on a friend's Salsa Colossal Ti (size 58), I took a Vernier caliper and measured it myself.
Tube diameters:
Top tubes: 35mm
Seat tube: 32mm
Bottom tube: 40mm
Seat stay: 16mm
Chain stay: 16mm x 27mm (oval)
Head tube: 44mm
BB tube: 46mm
You can also let Peter and his team take care of the tube sizing.
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tripleDot,
Awesome, thanks for the info. I take it you're running a 30.9 seatpost?
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@FTM, I'm running 27.2mm seat post. The 32mm seat tube is outer diameter.
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Hard to measure on a built bike( Salsa or yours ) but did you ask for a minimal wall thickness ?
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@Carbonazza, no, I did not ask for any particular tube thickness. I reckon that if the manufacturer don't go for butting (as per my research) they would be using a thick enough tubing. It is their name on the line. And so far, none of the guys whose commissions I've read didn't specify tube thickness and didn't report any problems, I just sort of trusted them. Btw, those reviews/project documentations I've read were about a few years old when I got around them with updates. So I feel safe to assume that the authors would have reported any problems if they encountered it.
If I recall correctly, one guy did cracked a tube (can't remember which though) but he did specifically say that it was his fault as he went with a smaller diameter tube, which a friend and the manufacturer did warn him of his choice.
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Took this bike on a trail route that I ride on my 29+ bike just to see if a CX could handle said route. Sadly, had to get down and push the bike on some section. The narrow tires didn't have enough grip, making those descent dangerous... at least for my skill level. But for most part, it was a blast.
Anyway, got the bike all muddy & dirty and had hosed it down when I got home. While cleaning the bike, I noticed something that I had completely forgotten during the planning stage... a drain hole. Not exactly a big problem but definitely something usefull if you go for internal cabling features.
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A little update...
Replaced the 1x to a Tiagra 2x chainring set. Loving the increased speed and easier climbs.
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Ti is definitely a magical metal for bikes :D
I couldn't find it on your thread, who did manufacture it ?
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Oops, ok... Walty... on the other post ;)
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Evolution of my gravel bike.
Started as a 1x11 - XT crank & cassette, Stone 42T chainring.
Then a 2x11 - Taigra 50/34T w/ XT cassette.
Now, a single speed. XT crank, Stone 40T oval w/ 18T rear.
Weight: 9.25kg (20.35lbs)
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Been enjoying the single speed setup while waiting for parts of the 29er to arrive.
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Hey tripleDot, really nice build!
I was thinking of getting a Ti frame myself. I would basically want the Lauf True Grit frame S size in titanium, with the ability to add a rear rack for touring/bikepacking, a threaded BB and the top tube bottle boss.
How much do you think it would cost to get it done? And where should I start? Thank!
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@noodleshop, I can only give the basic rate for Waltly Ti Mfg. As I've no experience or much info about other titanium bike manufacturer. Waltly's base rate is US$800. Some features have additional charges. But for the features you mentioned, I believe they all fit in the base rate.
Where to start. Contact Waltly. They will inform you what they'll need from you. If you have a geometry chart/sheet ready, that'll be a big help.
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...I would basically want the Lauf True Grit frame...
What did you find interesting in that frame ?
I'm looking too for inspiration.
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If you're looking for a gravel bike, check out the Otso Warakin. When I finally get around to building one, that's the geometry I'll be using. To be honest though, it's the only gravel bike I have any time on. Last summer I used the demo from my LBS for a weekend riding around Swan's Island in Maine. Not much for smooth pavement there and a good amount of gravel as well. I had a blast on it.
(https://i.imgur.com/oy62dCYl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/s0Ql3Irl.jpg)
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If you're looking for a gravel bike, check out the Otso Warakin. When I finally get around to building one, that's the geometry I'll be using. To be honest though, it's the only gravel bike I have any time on. Last summer I used the demo from my LBS for a weekend riding around Swan's Island in Maine. Not much for smooth pavement there and a good amount of gravel as well. I had a blast on it.
(https://i.imgur.com/oy62dCYl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/s0Ql3Irl.jpg)
If you basically want a less expensive version of that bike (albeit minus the adjuster chip), why not give ORA a call? Pretty sure they make it for Warakin. Would be more expensive than Waltly or XACD, but likely still significantly cheaper than Warakin. They'd probably insist on a few changes on top of lack of adjuster chip, to make sure they don't upset Warakin, but you'd be getting exactly the same tubing and welds.
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@noodleshop, I can only give the basic rate for Waltly Ti Mfg. As I've no experience or much info about other titanium bike manufacturer. Waltly's base rate is US$800. Some features have additional charges. But for the features you mentioned, I believe they all fit in the base rate.
Where to start. Contact Waltly. They will inform you what they'll need from you. If you have a geometry chart/sheet ready, that'll be a big help.
Thanks @tripleDot, that's a good baseline to work with. I know the Waltly stuff is waay cheaper than the branded stuff, but it's a touch above my budget. Would you know if it be possible to get something off the shelf from them for around $700USD, with the modern standards (disc brakes, internal cable routing, tapered headset, 12mm thru-axle, etc.). I've been working my way through Waltly's Alibaba store but have yet to find a frame that meets this criteria.
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...I would basically want the Lauf True Grit frame...
What did you find interesting in that frame ?
I'm looking too for inspiration.
@carbonazza I was thinking of pairing the Ti frame with the Lauf True Grit fork, so I figured that having the same geometry as the Lauf would work best with the fork!
I think there's definitely many interesting trends going on; everyone seems to have their own flavour of gravel these days, from bikepacking cargo-hauling machines to the sportier side of things, a la Dirty Kanza, etc. I kinda want something that's a good inbetween; riding most days are short 20-30km jaunts and commuting to school, but I do enjoy longer 50km++ rides, with the hope towards bikepacking rides around Southeast Asia (and perhaps even beyond) when Covid clears. Slap on some racks, panniers and bags, and have a good run with the mates :)