Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: frankR on November 19, 2014, 10:16:27 AM
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- IPlay IP-256SL (17.5", BB30)
- Rockshox SID Worldcup XX
- Specialized Roval Control SL
- SRAM XX1
- Shimano XTR M9000 brakes
- Ritchey WCS Carbon Components
Hope to be under 18.5lbs
Build Status: 90% complete. Need to shorten front brake line, run RD cable, install chain and saddle. Waiting on wheels ordered through Livermore Cyclery (2015 Roval Control SL).
Road racer for 5 years that got hooked on XC racing this past season in Norcal. Current MtB bike is a 2012 Specialized SJ Carbon Expert (~23lbs).
Time to upgrade! Took the plunge on a high-end build. This project is my first frame-up build (typically a Craigslist shopper), and by far the most money I have spent on any bicycle.
Original intention was to build a Niner Air 9 RDO. However, the new 2015 frame was announced but not yet available back in October. Had my eye on the 256SL for weeks so I pulled the trigger through Peter. Will continue to ride and race the 256SL as long as I am happy with it. Otherwise will move to the new Air 9 RDO and transfer components.
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Looks like you're pulling out all the stops - Looks great so far, man. Def be following along with this build thread.
Especially looking forward to hear your thoughts on how this compares to your SJ.
So, I don't know all too much about the Roval wheels, but was wondering if you considered going the Chinese carbon route for those as well? A quick Google search tells me they are pretty pricey, I assume you think these wheels will justify a higher price point?
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Have an almost identical build, except for the wheels. Looking forward to the next pics. What are your plans with the RD cable? Are you going to run the full outer cable through the frame?
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Not that you asked but couldn't cut much weight off that. I see one big area.
Since you are going for light weight and you are an XC racer....you could save over a 80g dropping the shimano rotors and going windcutters or quaxar iris(138g for both)
Otherwise, you could save maybe 40g on your seat.
You could go for Extralite or ?escapes me to save nearly a 100g on your thru-axles.
30g? or so with a starnut
Others would be minute after that.
I guess the obvious would be the fork for biggest savings - you could get into the 17lbs.
Very cool build...you going to make it more personal with any design/coloring or such?
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Brmeyer what fork would you recommend to shave more weight?
Thanks,
Andy. :)
IP 036
LTK 023
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Brmeyer what fork would you recommend to shave more weight?
Lefty carbon or rigid carbon are your only options from the World Cup Reba I THINK
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Re Sjon7283
I take it you have been pleased with your 256SL? I need to look for a thread on your bike (have you posted one), I would like to compare your build to mine.
I plan to run the cable internally bare (without housing) inside the frame. Not sure if this is what are asking? Is there another route?
Re Oolak,
I am very eager to see how the 256SL compares to the SJ. Will reply back with my impressions as soon as the bike is rideable and the trails dry out!
Yes, I have spent a lot of time looking at Chinese Carbon wheels. I emailed Light-Bicycle asking if they would build the 27mm hookless rim with DT 240S hubs. Unfortunately they could not. Their standard build with the HOPE Pro 2 EVO I am sure are sweet wheels, but they are a tad heavier then I was willing to accept. In hindsight I should have pulled the trigger on the Hope Pro built LB wheels...
Initially I considered the Enve M50, Stans Valor, LB wheels, and the Control SL. The Enve you can rule out immediately due to their outrageous price. I am also not excited about internal spoke nipples. From what I hear the Valors are flexy and the hubs aren't great. Reports are the Rovals are a solid wheelset. Pricey, but can be purchased on eBay/Craigslist for a reasonable price.
My plan as of Monday was to purchase a used set of Arch EX to hold me over until I could build-up LB wheels w/240 hubs or find (pay) someone to do it for me. Fortunately, Monday afternoon I received an offered to purchase the Roval wheels at a significant discount through Livermore Cyclery, a long time team sponsor.
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Re brmeyer135,
You are correct to point out my build could drop some weight. It is certainly not, strictly speaking, a "weight weenie" build. I appreciate your suggestions and any others you can think of.
I did discover the remarkably light weight Quaxar rotors. There are conflicting reports if they degrade braking performance. I would like to decide for myself by starting on the (heavy) Shimano rotors and then try lighter rotors later. Do you have an opinion?
In general for this build I am hesitant to accept significant compromise to performance (braking), durability, and comfort (saddle) if it means less confidence out on the trails, especially while racing.
There are certainly many races where I could run a rigid fork. It is relatively easy to change forks. Also nice to have a rigid to plug-in when it comes time to service the Sid so I can take my time and still have a rideable bike.
I did consider a Lefty. I like the design. It does seem to have advantages over a conventional fork: rigidity, as well as lighter weight. The requirement to run a special hub ultimately turned me away. The top-end Lefty is more expensive than the Sid. Plus, it would be weird looking! But I am sure I could get used to it.
I need to look into the lighter through axle you mention. What is a starnut?
Will likely keep it flat black. Paint adds weight! :)
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First of all, a really nice bike frankR !!! Since you appreciate suggestions, here are some (in fact you should easily get sub-8kg):
Extralite axles mentioned already: http://www.extralite.com/Products/Black%20Lock.htm
Starnut is the expander in your steerer tube, guess this would help: http://www.extralite.com/Products/UltraStar%202.htm
Headset and bar could probably drop around 50g together, don't know your width though so cannot suggest anything in particular. And those anvil-grips :)
With the saddle, there are plenty of sub 100g models, here for example: http://r2-bike.com/Saddle
For the crank you could get Absolute Black Spiderless chainring, dropping some weight and improving stiffness (not to mention the looks): http://absoluteblack.cc/sram-spiderless.html , check out their rotors too.
Couldn't do much more about drivetrain, maybe switching chain to lighter KMC.
You have already ordered wheels, which is a pity since there are a lot of options for 29er, even sub 1100g, sub 1300g with comparable or lower budget.
Brakes are fine I guess, Formulas wouldn't get you MUCH lower and XTR are probably working a little better, so a fair tradeoff.
Seatpost/Seatclamp - 30-50g to drop depending on budget ;)
Hope this helps :)
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glad you didn't take me wrong...I didn't mean anything negative....it was that you were interested in being lite but could go lighter with some parts you may not of known of.
The quaxar: been fine for general riding....no sustained downs...for most XC riding/racing they should be plenty paired with XTR
Otherwise, what kind of racing are you doing?
There was an excellent story of another race on the forum.
Your impressions of this bike in your races compared to the SJ would be interesting....foremost, the 5-6lb difference...what kind of difference did it make?
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brmeyer135 and JohnnyNT,
I compiled the light weight components you recommended into my build list below. An investment of $500 could drop ~500g. Weight "weening" is expensive!
When sorted by g/$, the upgrades listed at the top are the ones I could see possibly investing in.
The integrated spider/chainrings by absoluteBLACK look like an (obvious) innovation. I am concerned about the durability of the grips, but at only $25 there isn't much to risk. The lighter seat post clamp, expansion plug (UltraStar), top cap, and headset bolt are expensive but shouldn't affect performance. The rotors are worth trying, as I previously mentioned.
The ExtraLite axles are interesting... You must carry a heavy Allen key (mine weights 50g) if you want to remove the wheels on trail. Or be willing to hike out if you need to fix a puncture. Also expensive at 400mg per dollar.
The AX LEAF saddle caught my eye ($$$). Unsure I will like it from a comfort standpoint.
I have Formula R1 brakes on my SJ. They work well, when they work. Require constant maintenance. After a year of headache I was ready for Shimano brakes.
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=465)
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brmeyer135,
5-6lb is HUGE! It saves ~30s up a 25min climb. I would be pleased to see that much improvement after two seasons of training.
We have any type of terrain you can think of here in Northern California for XC racing. From a flat dirt track to the Downiville Classic, which is about as gnarly as you get in XC racing.
Coming from road racing, I perform the best on courses with big climbs.
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I suggest thorough study of R2Bike.com Webpage, not only do they have Extralite products cheaper than on Extralite Webpage, but also cheaper alternatives (like Syntace rear axle, 40g fo 28 Euro). Afaik they have Absolute Black products too.
And with seatclamp, for the same price Smud is lighter: http://smud-carbon.eu/clampCL.html , Smud also makes nice saddles, seatposts and bottle cages.
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Some of those prices are crazy to me.
This is where it is time for give and take related value or for some durability(but this is WW talk for now)
For under 50 you could get a carbon seat weighing 90-100g. ex. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Full-carbon-saddle-bicycle-saddle-velo-sillin-bicicleta-specialized-mountain-bike-seat-saddle-carbon-saddle-front/32232911782.html
An alternative to extralite:
http://shop.shift-up.eu/fr/product/qr15-axle/?lang=en&lang-id=1 front
http://shop.shift-up.eu/product/x12-rear-axle/ rear
Something not mentioned here for lighter weight...racing tires....like Stan's Crow or Raven? or the new Schwalbe Thunder Burt....this would put you in the 16lbs range.
Again, will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the lighter weight in your races...I say this because we probably carry more weight that could be shed.
Short race...an hr or less, one shouldn't need much liquid during the race...but we have giant water bottles(or 2) or a camel back.
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Finished!
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=470)
Holy cow this bike is light! Feels like picking up my road bike.
After a week delay due to a mix-up with end caps, she is ready for her maiden (Thanksgiving day) voyage after a rear brake bleed. (My first attempt at a Shimano brake bleed was a greasy disaster!)
All I have done so far is roll it down the driveway in pitch darkness hopping the curbs a few times, but I can already tell how big of a difference weight makes. I can throw the bike around with ease. Much less weight to control.
Can't wait to ride it tomorrow!
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;DNice! please let us know how you are liking the m9000 brakes and if it would be worth going 180mm on the front?
love the wheels! :)
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A Franktastic build ! Nicely done, love it !
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Great build!
I didn't know Ritchey's pedals.
When my eggbeaters will fall appart(they probably will), I could switch to them.
They are light and come at a reasonable price.
I'm very interested in your feedback.
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Nice!! (but pls redo you front QR :) ) More pics please :)
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Looks great! Interested in how your drilling of the rear cablestopt was
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First Ride Impression: Wow! Game changing fast...
http://app.strava.com/activities/223879465
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=476)
Climbing: Stiff frame. Responsiveness apparent jumping out of the saddle. Feels much closer to my road bike (Tarmac SL4). Excellent rear-end traction even with a completely bald RaRa on the rear. Despite a nasty head cold my climb times were near PRs at only about 85% throttle.
Found myself climbing more out of the saddle. On the road, I mix about 50:50 in and out of the saddle. I attribute the out of saddle efficiency to the high stiffness and reduced weight. Love the remote lock out. The Specialized Brain never seems to lock when you need it to be stiff, or plush through bumps.
Fork: Butter! Second single track descent was extremely bumpy due to cattle abuse from the previous winter. Could carry much more speed due to the efficiency of the fork. I never touched the damper. Felt about right though. Can only get better with some tuning. Ran at 100psi (what I use my SJ Sid). Did not get near max travel. Will lower pressure if travel holds after today's ride.
Brakes: Bled the rear yesterday morning before the ride. Lever felt a little soft compared to the front. On the trail it had no power at the start. On the first descent I focused on bedding in the front pads. Good bite by the time I got to the bottom. Rear lever was soft. No power. Second descent was steep twisty single track. Needed to use the rear for steering purposes. Confusingly, the rear lever felt firmer than the front at the end of the ride. Did some air settle up into the master cylinder reservoir? Bite on both brakes good at the end of the ride. Since I have never used Shimano brakes before, I have nothing to reference as far as what is "right". It will take some trail time to get used to them. May take them to LBS for a once over.
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=478)
Descending: Felt up to speed by the second descent. In fact, I had more confidence on the trail than I have ever experienced. I could point the light front end exactly where I wanted it. Even with consciously trying to "go easy" I was near PR times on most downhills. Good compliance on the rear-end. With a bald rear RaRa I swung the tail out huge a couple times, but never felt out of control. Excellent brake modulation and predictability. Will throw a long steep decent at the brakes today. Benchmark for power and fade resistance.
Wheels: So far so good. Stiff. Light. Tires extremely difficult to mount. Part of the beadhook-less design? More traction noticeable due to wider rim. More tire compliance (and grip) because of increase tire volume.
Pedals: Cranked down the retention springs to max force. Initially, my shoes had some vertical play (lifting off the pedal, very annoying) but that problem somehow corrected itself later into the ride. Float and pedal retention felt similar to my m560 pedals on my SJ.
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Additional Photos
Pre-ride, never will be this clean again! :(
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More additional photos
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Rear Brake Bleed (must be done on the bike).
Gravity bleed
Caliper bleed port must be highest point of the caliper.
Get master cylinder (lever) as high as possible.
That was the idea...
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=488)
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Rotor wear question:
Does this look right?
Wear on front pads looks even.
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=490)
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=492)
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Front / rear caliper mounting
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=494)
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=496)
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Only annoyance was brake hose slap in the frame.
Has anyone attempted to mitigate this? With foam pipe insulation of the appropriate diameter maybe?
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I used foam pipe and attached some cord to the foam pipe.
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My bike looks as good as yours, but my woods around look ridiculous now :'(
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Can you tel me how you did the cable drilling for the RD?
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Only annoyance was brake hose slap in the frame.
Has anyone attempted to mitigate this? With foam pipe insulation of the appropriate diameter maybe?
I did the foam trick with the same stuff originally, months ago. It's been perfect for hundreds of miles. See this post I made for details:
http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,150.msg2326.html#msg2326
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Sussed. & Cnasta,
Thanks. Glad you like the build.
I noticed the front axle cam lock pointing forward after I took the photo and had to change it. ;)
Sjon7283,
Re: Rear cable drilling. I do not know what you mean by "cable drilling". No drilling was required to install the rear brake hose or RD cable.
I started the following thread looking for help on rear brake hose routing.
http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,375.0.html
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MTB2223 & Vipassana,
Thanks. Will try "the foam trick".
Exactly what I had in mind. My concern was RD cable interference. I like what you did, tight fitting and strategically placed. Great hearing this has been solid for you.
I did the foam trick with the same stuff originally, months ago. It's been perfect for hundreds of miles. See this post I made for details:
http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,150.msg2326.html#msg2326
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Great build!
I didn't know Ritchey's pedals.
When my eggbeaters will fall appart(they probably will), I could switch to them.
They are light and come at a reasonable price.
I'm very interested in your feedback.
Thanks!
Very positive impression of the Ritchey pedals thus far. Exceptional build quality, which I find is true of all Ritchey components. Attractive finish on them as well.
I have no experience with Egg Beaters so can't offer a comparison. The only other MtB pedals I have tried are the Time ATAC, which I did not care for.
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;DNice! please let us know how you are liking the m9000 brakes and if it would be worth going 180mm on the front?
love the wheels! :)
Thanks. Loving the brakes so far. Not sure they are working fully up to their capabilities yet (bedding and bleeding). Only other brakes I have used are Formula R1 that came on my SJ Carbon Expert.
Yesterday, my finger did slip off the lever going downhill. It seems slippery with a sweaty finger compared to the Formula levers. Will say more about this in my second ride report to follow.
I considered a 180mm rotor up front. If I were heavier I might have gone there. In "race trim" I weigh about 148lbs (67kg), and on an 18lb (8.2kg) bike with low mass (inertia) wheels, there is not a whole lot to stop. Not sure how much benefit a 180mm rotor will provide after considering the increased weight.
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Hey is that 18lbs with pedals. I have almost the same build but I'm 19 lbs with pedals and r1 brakes. Wondering where you weight savings are.
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Hey is that 18lbs with pedals. I have almost the same build but I'm 19 lbs with pedals and r1 brakes. Wondering where you weight savings are.
Just weighed it.... I am at 19.36lbs right now, with pedals, and two Specialized plastic bottle cages and Garmin computer mount but no computer.
I don't have all the spec'ed components on it right now. I have a base model Fizik Arione saddle mounted right now, which is about 100g heavier than the saddle that will end up on it (probably the Arione R1). That will drop ~0.22lbs, putting it at 19.14lbs.
Future upgrades:
- Ashima rotors, performance pending (purchased), -116g
- ExtraLite Grips, durability pending (purchased), -101g
- Chinese carbon bottle cages, functionality pending (purchased), -35g (?)
- Fizik Arione / Chinese carbon saddle (comfort pending), -101g
- Absolute Black Chainring, -150g
- ExtraLite Axles, -90g
- Headset parts, -25g (?)
Sum = -618g (1.36lbs) !!!
That should get me well below the target weight of <18.5lbs.
For now, I am enjoying riding this "heavy" 19.36lb build (fast)! :)
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Second Ride Report:
Pre-ride set-up notes.
- Rapid recovery (rebound) adjustment, increased rebound rate to about 7 of 10 clicks (was at 2 or 3 clicks of max)
- Same fork pressure (100psi)
- Same tire pressures, Front: 20psi; Rear: 22psi.
- Rear caliper realigned, was rubbing
- Increased brake lever reach, firmer feel, more leverage (and power?)
http://app.strava.com/activities/224177048
Different park today, Round Valley and Morgan Territory, foot hills of Mount Diablo. Main course is Miwok, a huge steep climb with rocky ramps maxing out at 35% grade.
Ride out to the big climb is single track carved into a hill side weaving between trees followed by flat fire road in Round Valley proper. Among the trees, rocks, roots, and ever present hillsides, the 256SL provides absolute confidence. Front-end pointy, rear-end light and responsive..
Climb was damp and therefore very grippy. Normally this climb requires nearly 100% effort just to complete. One of the most difficult climbs I know of in the Bay Area. Not possible to "take it easy". Despite a slight headwind and relentless head-cold, climb time was a PR! Again, I found myself climbing out of the saddle more. This helps because I can rest my quads while gaining some speed, even if it's just for a few seconds. Rocky ledges were easily negotiated, because I could easily hit them with momentum, nearly coating up and over them.
Decent is the same climb, but... Downhill... It loses 1400' in about 2mi. Much of that elevation is lost on the aforementioned steep (25+%) rocky slopes. It's an adrenaline rush lasting little more then 5min (depending on how brave you are). Speeds exceeding 40MPH are easily attained. Fork provides excellent traction braking on the down-sloping, off-chamber rock-laden bumps.
Towards the bottom the front lever went a little soft and the front rotor began audibly crying. This happens to my Formula R1 brakes on hot days (100degF). My usual remedy is to feed-in rear-brakes bias. I think I may have slightly glazed the front rotor because reduced stopping power persisted even after the rotor had cooled. The rotor also looked shinny. Pushed it too hard without a proper bed-in?
The descent was a PR, even while "holding back"! The fork probably deserves most of the credit for the increased traction and confidence. The fork dampener was probably set too aggressively because my arms and hands were dead at the bottom, over damped for the drops and bumps. This bike is fun to jump BTW! Cable slaps sounds like the bike is disintegrating though!
Final climb and descent is a gem! One mile long climb gaining about 800' followed by high-speed flowing single track among trees and rocks. Couldn't push it like I would have wanted because of groups of hikers and equestrians. In this terrain, "confidence" is the best single-word description.
Post-ride notes:
- Fix that brake hose slap!
- Fork only reached 70% of travel, will drop pressure
- Increase bar drop, move stem down one or two spacers
- Increase saddle height 3mm, nose down saddle 2deg, tighten bolts
- Increase RD cable tension, lost big cog up final climb (may not need it, up from 30t to 32t)
- Back-off damper to about 4 clicks
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Anti-cable slap mod implemented this morning. Inserted two ~3.5" long sections of foam pipe insulation into the top tube on the brake hose, stopping at the bottle cage screws.
Drop testing the bike from about 6" the slap is gone. Trails too soggy today for a test ride after a big storm system soaked the trails.
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=500)
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Headset bearings rusting already after two washes and a wet ride yesterday. Lower headset cartridge bearing came apart while removing it to install the foam pipe insulation. Ball bearings went flying...
Luckily I had an extra (compatible) Canecreek lower headset bearing from the Stumpjumper rebuild project completed a few months ago.
Coated the bearing cartridges in a good cleaner / lubricant / protectant. Also coated the lower crown race and bearing seals in a silicone grease to ward off any further attack from water. Purchased this tube to coat and protect the battery terminals on my car. Never tried this before on bicycle bearings. Kind of a gamble.
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Also plugged the FD mount and cable holes with black silicone caulk. Idea stolen from another forum member. *** Full credit given ***
Didn't plug the FD cable hole on the bottom bracket.
Caulk should come out of there easily if anyone (else, probably not me) wants to install a FD.
Want to keep it dry inside the frame to protect the bottom bracket bearings!
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Frustrating third ride yesterday in misty rain...
- Shifting all over the place. Unable to trim using shifter barrel adjuster. Ultimately gave up on the 42t.
- Auto-shifting climbing out of the saddle.
- Rear brake rubbing, espeacially climbing out of the saddle.
Lost confidence because of said issues. Let to a minor crash, front washed on off-chamber wet and sandy hard-pack.
This morning I noticed the rear through axle was lose, almost completely unthreaded out of the nut. My guess is it came out on my ride yesterday (oops!)
Explains all the issues and why I crashed. Loose rear unsettled the front end.
Need that through axle tighter! Lucky I did not damage anything.
P.S. Also ordered the SwissStop Disc E 28 pads. Will try with the Ashima rotors. Not overly impressed by the XTR brakes so far. I had high expectations. I think my disappointment could be in part due the pads...
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There's something about this frame and rear axle. I've read more than a few takes if the reader axle coming lose. Mine did the exact same on my second ride. Lost the nut, rear wheel was all over the place.
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I don't think it is a frame issue.
The 142x12 DT Swiss axle works fine on my frame.
But the nut can't move, as I did put a headless screw in the small threaded hole on the back of the drop out.
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Rotor wear question:
Does this look right?
Wear on front pads looks even.
I've got exactly the same on my rear pads.
Could it be a small issue with the tolerances on the caliper post-mount on the IP-256SL frames ?
Maybe we have to make a new topic about this ?
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Clarifying: those with rear axle troubles have the iPlay version and not Shimano e-thru axle?...
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I've had both because I broke my iplay version. Not their fault.
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Do you have a gxp or a bb30 xx1 crank? If Its a gxp, how was your installation? Did you use Any spacers? And witch bb set dit you install?
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Ip057 - gxp - no spacers for xx1. It was easy and I have never done it before.
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Do you have a gxp or a bb30 xx1 crank? If Its a gxp, how was your installation? Did you use Any spacers? And witch bb set dit you install?
BB30. No spacers. Wave washer only.
Wheels Manufacturing Enduro angular contact bearings with SRAM BB30 bottom bracket kit (needed for wave washer and dust covers).
Install was "easy".... Actually, if aiming for perfection, I find nothing "easy" about working on bikes, including installing BB30 bearings and crankset. I imagine if you are a professional bike mechanic, i.e. work on bikes for a living and have installed press fit BB30 bearings 100s of times, it becomes "easy". Like anything else, once you becomes practiced it becomes easier. Contrast that with what you read on the internet...
To press the bearings in I used BB30 dies that came with a Park Tool kit. I also bought a press off eBay, which consists of nothing more then a threaded rod and pair of nuts and "precision machined" dies. Unfortunately, I found the precision machined dies too well machined. They fit extremely tight in the ID of the BB30 bearings. Even heavily lubed, I press fit the dies to the bearings instead of the bearings to the BB30 shell. So I substituted in the "lower precision" Park Tool dies. Even so I found the shell very loose, and pulled out the ND side bearings when removing the crank. This suggests the ID of the Wheels Mfg. bearings are tight fitting and the IPlay shell is comparatively loose.
Pay attention to how you pre-load the bearings. If you immediately torque down the crank bolt to spec. I found you will impart an eccentricity to the crank, and it will visible spin "untrue". The correct procedure I found was to spin the crank in the bearings as you gradually apply torque so the bearings in the race can center themselves. I have found this to be less of an issue with GXP style BB.
The crank is working flawlessly, so far, after only 3 rides. No dreaded BB30 creak. Very stiff and smooth.
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Ashima rotors arrived in the mail today (same as Quaxar as far as I can tell). Purchased direct from Taiwan off of eBay.
Weigh in well over the advertised (66g) at 86g. That's a 30% difference! Without screws they are 74g (12% difference).
Delta weight compared to Shimano is 78g (including screws).
1.80mm thickness. Surface grinding looks good. Same thickness as Shimano "Ice Tech" rotors.
Purchased SwissStop Disc 28 e. The "e" representing "electric bike". These had the highest average rating on SwissStop website for power, modulation, and wear rate. Figured I would try them. Running the standard sintered SwissStop pads on my Formula Brakes on the SJ, which I have been pleased with. These "e" pads also appear to be a sintered compound, impregnated with something (green stuff?)
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That is heavy and disappointing as a % that is way off...your bolts aren't titanium are they?
My Quaxar discs were 69g for 160mm and 7g for the 6 bolts(titanium)
Your not talking about Shimano ice tech rt98 then - 140mm ice tech is 91g w/o bolts
Nice tip about the crank and bb.
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Glad I rode the new machine as much as I could back in November because my area of Northern California has seen well over one foot of desperately needed rain over the past several weeks. On the downside this caused a month long hiatus in riding the new chiner. The SJ has substituted on a couple muddy rides over this time.
Upgrades:
- Extralite grips installed. Love'em so far!
- Ashima rotors + SwissStop Disc e Pads (more on this in next post)
- Chinese $20 carbon bottle cages. Garbage! Trash can.
Mixed results with the cable slap mod. By and large cable slap is gone. I only hear it on the biggest hits or drops. I am content with how things are for now.
From one extreme to another, the once parched Northern California hills are now sodden and glowing green with luscious grass providing hopes of the record breaking California drought subsiding.
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=534)
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Unfortunately my instincts were correct regarding the Shimano rotors being glazed. This past Tuesday afternoon was my first ride on the 256SL following the harsh Miwok decent back in late November. Towards the end of that descent my brakes started to fade. Immediately I suspected they were glazed. On my first descent Tuesday I had zero braking power and the rotors were howling frighteningly loud.
My attempt to restore the Shimano rotor surfaces with sandpaper followed by a systematic break-in process was a disappointing failure. Brakes were oscillating and howling with no power.
I can only suspect the Shimano compound does not hold-up well to high heat. Even when operating at peak performance I was not impressed with the breaking power of the Shimano pads.
So this meant the new Ashima rotors went on along with the new SwissStop Disc "e" pads...
After following the bed-in process described below, I am extremely impressed with the Ashima rotor and SwissStop pad combo. Great power and modulation. The XTR brakes are beginning to live up to the high expectations I had for them. If this result holds up, these Ashima rotors are among the best value I have ever come across in road or MtB components, considering they can be bought right now on eBay for $28/pr!
The bed-in process:
No doubt there are many different methods by which one can "bed-in" a fresh set of brake rotor. Below I describe one such process that has worked for me in the past.
I start by riding on flat ground dragging the front or rear brake lightly to build up heat on the disk and pads while not allowing the rotors to make any noise (the dreaded squeal). After a minute or so of this when I feel the rotors begin to bite I do a couple of hard'ish braking runs from ~20MPH coming to a near stop, but not to a complete stop. It is critical you do not allow the brakes to make any noise or oscillate! This will cause uneven bed-in and that pattern that causing noise/oscillation will bed into the rotors surface and you may ruin your rotors. If the brakes make noise, brake harder and harder until it stops. I repeat the above process for the front and rear brakes independently. If your legs are burning and your breathing hard you've done it right. You need some heat to transfer resin and friction compound to the rotor surface.
After about 5 of these braking runs I stop and remove the pads from the calipers for inspection. As the pad compound goes through a thermal cycling it will look blackened, see photo below. Curiously, I noticed on the SwissStop pads that only the center of the pads were black and the perimeter looked like new compound. This is a problem since it will not promote even "bed-in" of the rotor surface. To correct this I lapped the surface of each pads with 120 grit sandpaper on a smooth workbench surface. Only a few seconds of a circular grinding pattern are required to remove the blacken layer and expose fresh compound and flatten the pad surface.
The pads then go back into the calipers, being careful not to contaminate them during this whole process and I repeat the same bed-in process of dragging the brakes followed by hard'ish braking runs. If you're doing this on asphalt/concrete make sure you use old tires because rapid acceleration/deceleration will quickly chew through your tires. I then head out on to a ride with a steep hill to complete the bed-in process. Yesterday I had a 2500 foot climb averaging about 10 percent grade. On the descent, I don't allow the bike speed to exceed much over 25 MPH and I brake both the front and rear as evenly as possible without allowing the wheels to lock, which the rear is prone to easily locking, especially if you have a heavily worn treadles bald rear like I do!
That should complete the bed in process. However, I am going to avoid any high heat descents (like Miwok) for a few rides to let the brake bed set-in (playing it cautious).
Pads and rotors following bed-in yesterday:
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=536)
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=538)
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That is heavy and disappointing as a % that is way off...your bolts aren't titanium are they?
My Quaxar discs were 69g for 160mm and 7g for the 6 bolts(titanium)
Your not talking about Shimano ice tech rt98 then - 140mm ice tech is 91g w/o bolts
Nice tip about the crank and bb.
No bolts are not Ti. I think Quaxar gets lower weights with a two piece design. The friction surface looks identical to the Ashima rotors. I suspect Quaxar modifies them to obtain the lower mass two-piece design.
My Shimano rotors are XT SM-RT86 Rotor - 6-Bolt. Glad to hear you liked the crank tip.
Two-piece Quaxar design. I've seen several styles of this design. These are available on eBay for $38 a piece. Saves 14g over the Ashima.
(http://www.xcracer.com/content/products/QuaxarAximL.jpg)
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I thought the 2-piece design would help with heat and avoid warping....I can't tell so far, mostly cause nothing to compare to.
So far, they haven't been problematic like some 2-piece, the connection point kinda 'wollered' out and were essentially ruined.
The holes in the brake lanes of these, Ashima and others would have the benefit of cooling quicker to help with less metal for braking.
Otherwise, glad to hear they are working well for ya.
When does your race season or races start?
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Race season begins on the road bike with a hill climb on New Years Day next Thursday. First MtB race is Jan 18th. Most of my races this spring will be road races on the road bike.
Not sure how the two piece design would aid heat dissipation. However, it likely does aid in durability by mitigating bending / warping.
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AbsoluteBLACK monolithic chainring installed. Went on in less than 5min. As for the claimed weight savings...
This is proper exaggeration!
"These chainrings save more than 150g over the regular spider and chainring combo."
375% less weight savings than claimed.
Not surprised. 150g sounded far-fetched. They must make this claim based on a low-end SRAM 3x crank, with tungsten chainrings, and uranium bolts.
Update: After one ride these rings work great. Marginally stiffer. The XX1 crank was already very stiff so not much room for improvement. It does change the look of the bike quite a bit. Cleaner, more business oriented, form following function compared to the SRAM rings.
With only 40g saved compared to stock XX1, not sure it's worth the investment for most folks.
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=541)
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25,000 feet climbed on the 256SL last week. Rock solid so far.
Anti-cableslap needs work... Other than that, no complaints.
(http://chinertown.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=543)
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Some good wheels for you if you want to make it even lighter, quite expensive though ;)
http://r2-bike.com/Wheelset-29-Extralite-HyperHubs-Sapim-CX-Super-77-Composites-29-Clincher
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I swear JohnnyNT - I was just about to post that link also(not here but in components)
That is freaking impressive...but over $2000.00
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insane weight, hope to get there some day... loved the bike.
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Update:
750 hard trail miles on the bike. About 200,000 ft climbed.
1. Completed several races on the IP-256SL and very pleased with the performance of the bike
2. Have yet to completely eliminate cable slap
3. A little diappointed with the power of the XTR 9000 brakes. I think poor bleed is part of the issue.
4. Bottle cage inserts loose. Trying a repair with super glue (not optimistic)
5. Rear drop out creaking. Just tried removing from frame and greasing. Hopefully that cures this.
6. Overall durability and quality of the frame is generally good
7. Will likely replace with Niner Air 9 RDO frame later this year.
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Thanks for the update. Great build thread!
7. Will likely replace with Niner Air 9 RDO frame later this year.
If you're going to spend the money, that's the one to get. Sweet, sweet frames.
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You always have OPEN, end of the line: http://www.opencycle.com/hardtail/specs-prices
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You always have OPEN, end of the line: http://www.opencycle.com/hardtail/specs-prices
And then you've a circle.
Please take a look at this page: http://www.bikemag.com/gear/first-look-open-cycles-o-1-0/
It looks like the 256 is a clone of a OPEN-frame :)
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7. Will likely replace with Niner Air 9 RDO frame later this year.
Just curious. Why wouldn't you stick with the 256?
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7. Will likely replace with Niner Air 9 RDO frame later this year.
Just curious. Why wouldn't you stick with the 256?
Good question.
My original intent was to ride the IP256SL until the new Niner Air 9 RDO frame became available.
Motivation to go from the 256 to the Niner is I suspect it's a better frame through a better optimized carbon fiber layup: stiffer and compliant where it needs to be. Though I can't say for certain without riding the two frame back to back.
Also, I am generally pleased with the 256SL, but there are some issues:
1. Creaking rear dropout / through axle
2. Loose bottle cage inserts
3. Cable slap
4. User unfriendly internally routed rear brake line
If I can address the above issues I may ride the frame longer, at least until the end of the season.
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My thoughts:
1. Creaking rear dropout / through axle
My frame suffered from this as well. I thought it was the BB30 for the longest time. Removing the dropouts and greasing them with a waterproof, silicon based grease helped a ton. Then I grease routinely between the dropouts and the wheel/axle/caps/nut. Doing both of these made the bike entirely silent.
2. Loose bottle cage inserts
The loose bottle cage mounts is an easy one. The mounts are simply rivnuts. Get your hands on a rivnut install tool or make one (if you're clever) and tighten them down a but. Don't over do it.
(http://www.designworldonline.com/uploads/ImageGallery/2graph1.gif)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet_nut
3. Cable slap
I've posted a $0.50 fix for this on here. You can find it in my build thread. I did this after the first couple of rides and haven't heard a single noise from my cables since. Super easy and effective.
4. User unfriendly internally routed rear brake line
I'll agree with you here. That line was a pain to get routed. But now that it's in, I haven't had an ounce of trouble with it. And I have no reason to need to remove it at all. I would think of that as a one-time frustration, not an on-going issue.
The Air 9 RDO is a sweet bike. I demo rode one and liked it. But it was really expensive for what it was. It actually is what caused me to look into Chinese carbon manufacturers. For $1000 less than the bike I demo rode, I built a lighter, better spec'd bike that has performed flawlessly.
I cannot identify a difference between the two, but I'm sure there are subtle differences and I'm probably just not "good enough". I think most people can't tell the difference between most carbon frames in a true blind test. In general, I think a lot of it is hype and marketing surrounding bicycles which keep us in a perpetual upgrade cycle. I tend to roll my eyes at the discussions on MTBR where guys debate endlessly over 1 degree here or 10mm there. Just harden up and ride more. I would think spending 2-4 hours more a week on the bike, actually training, brings far more advantage than any subtle frame/geometry edge.
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2. Loose bottle cage inserts
The loose bottle cage mounts is an easy one. The mounts are simply rivnuts. Get your hands on a rivnut install tool or make one (if you're clever) and tighten them down a but. Don't over do it.
Excellent point - I had the same happen on my Rumblefish, but I just used a dab of a thin superglue and that worked like a champ. Still, I like your approach, and it might be more effective in the long run.
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I cannot identify a difference between the two, but I'm sure there are subtle differences and I'm probably just not "good enough". I think most people can't tell the difference between most carbon frames in a true blind test. In general, I think a lot of it is hype and marketing surrounding bicycles which keep us in a perpetual upgrade cycle. I tend to roll my eyes at the discussions on MTBR where guys debate endlessly over 1 degree here or 10mm there. Just harden up and ride more. I would think spending 2-4 hours more a week on the bike, actually training, brings far more advantage than any subtle frame/geometry edge.
^^This...
At times I think the bike industry is running out of ideas. To move forward...they have to keep coming up with "new" things to sell you. With XC bikes its the 69 degree headtube. Guys are thinking that it's some huge change to the way your bike rides. They have to keep coming up with new "standards" to keep the money flowing in. I bet in a few years...the industry will go back to the 71 degree headtube and hype the quick handling.
Now with the 148 standard if you want to swap frames...your cranks and rear wheel (hub) is now not compatible. Bike industry has to keep moving so you keep buying. Last year was Enduro...this year is the fat bike or + bike.
The 650 wheel size is nothing new. Specialized was so against the 650 wheels size a few years back. I bet in their testing they didn't find any significant differences between the 26...but once they saw the cash flowing in to other companies...they changed their minds. Heck, their first 650 frame was actually a 29er Stumpjumper with a spacer under the headtube. I don't think any company benefited more from the 650 than Santa Cruz. They couldn't keep the Bronson in stock when that first came out.
Flexibility is where the benefits of the open mold frames come in (besides the price). You at least can control some of the features of the frame and not how the bike company wants you to have it.
End rant...haha...
Most people buy new stuff just because they can and want to...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. :)
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Update to my update:
Vipassana,
Thanks for the tip on the rivnuts. I ordered a tool from amazon and m5 inserts. Will try crimping in new rivnuts. Right now I am running only one bottle cage. That's not going to work in a race.
A cure for the frame creaking has remained elusive... I have tried synthetic axle grease and silicone grease. None have worked. My next thing to try is some kind of elastomer. I did fix the creaking BB bearing. See photo below. One bearing was nearly frozen. Not surprising since I found enough dirt in there to host a reasonably sized flower bed.
I have tried several cable slap fixes. They all work for a time but eventually shift around and I end up with slap. A deadened slap, but still a slap.
Last weekend I installed new brake pads, SwissStop Sintered. The Disc E pads worked great until I burned through them. The rear pad was nearly completely gone. I have been riding with very little braking power the past few weeks. The Sintered pads have phenomenal power. I am now loving the XTRs again.
Unfortunately, during that first ride with new pads I had a little crash and that crash somehow pushed the front brake lever all the way forward, ejecting the snap ring out of its groove which holds the piston that applies pressure to the master cylinder. The brakes still worked, the lever just wouldn't return to it relaxed position flipping several inches forward when released. I thought the lever was toast since I couldn't find any repair instructions on the web. After digging into the mechanics of the mechanism the repair was completed rather quickly using a pair of snap ring pliers, after draining the system of fluid. A quick bleed and they were good as new.
I am still on course to buy the Niner AIR 9 RDO, but I am likely to wait for the right deal to come along. The frame retails for $2k. I would like to find a close out or new frame purchased second hand locally. There's a 2015 frame for sale on Craiglist for $1300, I would buy it but unfortunately, it's an XL.
Regarding the alleged conspiracy among bike manufactures to sucker us cyclists out of our hard money through continual revisions to "standards" and geometry, I say, you might have a point, but it's really a myopic allegation, IMO.
No one forces you to pay full retail every year to buy the latest and greatest gear. Great deals can be found buying closeouts on last years gear or prior generation components. If you are resourceful there are great deals to be found on state of the art gear. The reason why bikes have become so good over the past two decade, MtBs in particular, is through the hard efforts of the big name bike manufactures. Effort which requires tremendous capital which must be recuperated. Yes their business models demands they must continuously evolve and innovate. Specialized moto is "Innovate or Die". I think that credo applies to all bike companies. It's a highly competitive market. To stay in business you must push at the margins of technology. And yes sometimes that means changing standards. Consumers vote with their wallets. I refuse to take the cynical view by dismissing it as change for the sake of change.
The reason why relatively inexpensive Chinese frames exist is because of the hard work done by the name brand bike manufactures. I have yet to find any Chinese bike manufacture producing original innovative designs. They are blatant copies of existing bikes. Hence their low cost, since they have little R&D to recoup, and low overhead, and cheap labor, and can skimp on quality control.
Ultimately, I say ride what you want. Build what you want. But don't hate on the name brands because they are the source of the great equipment we get to enjoy, either directly or indirectly.
Photos of mentioned mechanical repairs and racing photos of the 256-SL in action included below.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-stvM_8VgOe0/VWoaJKqtCsI/AAAAAAAAAe8/qUWyxwVPlck/w616-h821-no/IMG_3433.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MBWy9YTArIk/VWocttN52-I/AAAAAAAAAg8/t3qi2V7Dv4g/w1095-h821-no/IMG_3768.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZGMce0tkhXk/VWoZ5-CNNtI/AAAAAAAAAd8/-3Szf3q4_xU/w616-h821-no/IMG_3813.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qWOTDTYC7Vk/VTHKGjWqCsI/AAAAAAAAAb0/hF5IWOaYvyA/w547-h821-no/131238-02-116.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wetHokVzwrU/VTHKFHmipkI/AAAAAAAAAbU/aBOEJrPSXxk/w547-h821-no/131238-01-285.jpg)
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Once I figured out how the Rivnuts work I figured out how to use the tool. The instructions weren't that helpful.
What I discovered was iPlay never set the rivnuts in my frame. You could tell by how deeply recessed into the frame the threads were. These first few mm of the rivnut are designed to collapse as the rivnut is compressed against the plate it is inserted into. After I set the first one the bottle cage insert became rock solid.
There was only enough clearence to set three of the four rivnuts. The bottom one on the seat tube can't be accesses by the tool I bought. There is another way to set rivnut using a screw, nut, and star washer to prevent the rivnut from rotating in the hole. I will get it later.
Astro Pneumatic Tool 1427 Hand Rivet Nut Kit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004KLVJAA/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_Kt6EvbQ0F0GCH
Edit: It appears what I thought was cable slap was really the loose Rivnuts. Bike is now relatively quiet.
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Great build !
First off how is the bike holding up? Frame wise, and second do you by chance have or can share a final break down of cost? How much did it cost you for this build? I'm sure the biggest discount would be the frame
Thank you