Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: samroy92 on July 19, 2018, 11:21:06 AM
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Edit:
TLDR: Do not buy from Hongfu bikes, ever.
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I'll give the brief version here. I've ordered a few frames from Workswell, Peter @xmcarbonspeed, all with great experiences. I decided to order the popular FM258(FM058/FM158) from Robert @Hongfu bikes. Per his preference I paid through alibaba.com. I ordered the frame around May 25th and expected longer processing due to my custom paint order.
- About 2 weeks later I inquired on the status, and Robert told me the frame was still producing (odd because I assumed they were in stock, according to their aliexpress store)
- I waited 30 more days and inquired again, he told me the frame would be done soon (still no paint?!)
- At this point I ordered a frame from xmcarbonspeed (thanks Peter! super fast shipping)
- Since the frame still wasn't painted I politely asked for a refund (see email paste below)
- Robert denied my refund and said the frame will be shipped anyway (??)
- I asked at least 3 times to issue a refund and started the process on alibaba - also started a dispute with my CC company
- Robert then emailed me and told me if I wanted a refund I would have to absorb mfg and processing costs (???)
- Escalated dispute to alibaba and have to upload evidence
Email conversation:
May 25th ordered
June 14th: (me) Hi Robert, how is the frame coming along -- Does it look like it will be shipped soon? : )
June 14th: (Hongfu) don't worry ,the frame is producing ,I wii tell you when it is finished
July 17th: (me) Hi Robert, any update on this frame?
July 17th: (Hongfu) Hi Sam, thanks for your inquiry Now everything is going well, probably shipped at the end of the month.
July 17th: (me) Too late to cancel my order ?
July 17th: (Hongfu) the frame is ud raw then ud matt matte finial is paint ，so need sometime.and Will be completed soon
July 17th: (me) Robert, I was under the impression my order was in stock in raw/matte and just needed to be processed + painted. I have considered other options since I have to wait until August. Can we process a refund cancellation?
---started refund process with alibaba---
July 18th: (Hongfu) hi Sam, I am Sorry aboout that and the frame finish is ud matt just need to paint, we try our best to finish paint in a week ,at end of the month you will get your frame. Can you withdraw Request a refund?please
July 18th: (me) I am sorry Robert but I have decided on other frames because the processing took too long - this is a good cancellation since it’s not painted yet. I am sorry again but we must refund if possible, let me know the best way.
July 18th: (Hongfu) It only takes a few days to complete, it is painting,I will send it next Tuesday.
July 19th: (Hongfu) Can you cancel your application for a refund and your frame will be senton next Tuesday? If you want a refund, you will need to pay some of the costs in our production process, and there will be losses for both of us.
My opinion:
This is a pretty unprofessional thing to do. I spent $880 on this order expecting it to be shipped within 60 days. When it was not, I asked for a refund - since the frame wasn't painted yet I didn't feel bad about it. Since when do customers absorb manufacturing costs?? This tactic is very petty for a 1 unit order and just wanted everyone here to be aware of a potential headache. I've heard good things about Hongfu, and i've had great experiences with other manufacturers, but this experience has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I think some of you will think i'm being too impatient here but what's wrong with refunding an order before it's shipped, and also before my customization (paint)?
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Bumping this visibility... I’ll be sure to keep this in mind as I shop for my next frame. Thanks for the info!
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Isn't it now common knowledge that hongfu is hopeless with timelines, and pretty much lies about the stock they have? i even got them to confirm they actually had stock of what i was about to order ("..will ship straight away..."), then i immediately ordered (i.e. paid) after confirmation of stock.... then heard nothing for a week. when they finally returned my 3rd email, they made something up, like someone else bought the stock they were referring to (like in the very short time between when they said they stock and when i paid - yeah right). then i waited about a month and a half, which i mentioned in my FM058 build thread. what i didnt mention in that build thread is how irate i ended up getting, to the point of demanding a refund. i made sure i paid with paypal, and was gonna put in a dispute if they didn't immediately comply. that refund demand was the only thing that finally got them moving. i had a shipping notification (tracking # etc) that day. what a horrible lot to deal with.
i have had issues with other sellers (like an order from lightbikes a few years back), but not this bad. i had great service from peter when he was a xmiplay, and more recently had no issues getting some rims from xmcarbonspeed.
i think you'll find a lot of the chinese resellers don't have the stock they claim they have, aren't involved in the manufacturing and have little control over it. it sure takes an adjustment, getting used to these clowns setting extremely false expectations and straight out lying, and then hopelessly under-delivering on their promises. if a local business did this, their business would die, quickly. it is like they don't care about return business, or think these kind of words don't get out on forums like these - and these forums are the kind of places where a lot of westerners find out about these kind of products and vendors.
shouldn't this thread be in the vendor discussion forum?
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shouldn't this thread be in the vendor discussion forum?
Yeah... We can probably move it over there - need mod help. But yeah it is disconcerting how snappy they got at the thought of a refund, alibaba is taking a partial refund approach too. My only recourse for a full refund at this point is my credit card company!
Latest:
7/19 (Alibaba.com -> me):
Thank you for contacting Alibaba. This is Shirley Zhu and I am glad to be at your service.
This email is sent to you regarding your Trade Assurance order. We are sorry to learn the problem, rest assured that we will try our best to help you with it.
After checking, we find the agreed shipment date is 2018-08-15. Thus we cannot ask the seller refund you forcibly. If you decide to cancel the order,is it possible for us to negotiate a partial refund with the seller and then close the order?
Have you ever discussed this issue with the seller, what is their proposal?
Please kindly respond with your reasonable proposal in the dispute detail page within 2 days.
I am looking forward to hearing from you soon.
7/19 (Me -> Alibaba.com):
I don't see how I would not get a full refund, there is nothing special or custom about the product I ordered. As evidenced in the email chain I have already attached. I will not settle for anything but a full refund. I am asking for a full refund -before- the item was customized, and -before- the item was shipped. There is no costs as a consumer that I should bear. Please kindly let me know if this is the right area to respond - I was not able to reply to the secure notification email.
7/20 (Hongfu -> me) [randomely they reply'd to my thread with some marketing ?? wth?]
hi friend,
how are you recently?
have you finished your bike building?
if you have any question,we can have a talk
we have promotions about disc frame fm079-f original price:$510 now:$460
fm169 original price:$799 now:$500
fm109 original price:$1260 now:$800
are you stil hesitate?( the price only Deadline end of July)
Lol this is so jacked up!
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I have a bad experience at Shenzen First too on alibabba. Ordered a 26er small for my kid and they sent a 27.5 medium. Not only that the frame was jacked up. I noticed right away when they sent pics at my request to see said frame before it shipped. I didn't believe them and for good reason. I noticed immediately that the frame was jacked up, broken rocker and a dent on the headtube. The jackasses sent the broken frame anyways. They then ignored my emails playing stupid. I called up Chase and they took care of it. Then Shenzen had the audacity to ask for the broken frame back. I laughed at them as I threw it in the trash.
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Latest email correspondence:
7/20 (Hongfu): Can you revoke the evidence against us? So we will return the money to you.
7/20 (Me): Robert, no problem I will revoke the evidence - but can you credit the money back first? Upon receipt I will cancel the refund request - does that sounds good?
7/20 (Hongfu): You cancel it first, then return it to you.
What should I do?? Help.
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Latest email correspondence:
7/20 (Hongfu): Can you revoke the evidence against us? So we will return the money to you.
7/20 (Me): Robert, no problem I will revoke the evidence - but can you credit the money back first? Upon receipt I will cancel the refund request - does that sounds good?
7/20 (Hongfu): You cancel it first, then return it to you.
What should I do?? Help.
Did you pay with a credit card? If yes, call them up and let them know what happened.
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Latest email correspondence:
7/20 (Hongfu): Can you revoke the evidence against us? So we will return the money to you.
7/20 (Me): Robert, no problem I will revoke the evidence - but can you credit the money back first? Upon receipt I will cancel the refund request - does that sounds good?
7/20 (Hongfu): You cancel it first, then return it to you.
What should I do?? Help.
Did you pay with a credit card? If yes, call them up and let them know what happened.
Yeah, got in touch with the CC company today about my dispute and explained the situation. They said they would credit me back immediately. They also said the merchant still reserves the right to counter. We'll see what happens.
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^^Nice. You are probably all set now. There's nothing the vendor can say to get your money now unless they can prove you have in your possession said frame.
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Latest correspondence:
7/25/18 (Hongfu): how are you recently? Is there, only if you cancel the dispute and click to agree to negotiate, I will refund the money I paid before
7/27/18 (Alibaba.com): This email is sent to you regarding your Trade Assurance order 92269996205205. We contacted the seller and they agreed to refund you 710USD to cancel the order, because they had already prepared the goods as per your request in the contract. They will upload product picture in the dispute detail page.
Please kindly reflect the mutual agreement on the refund amount within 2 days.
However I haven't replied to anything because I am assuming my credit card is taking care of it. I might reply to Alibaba.com and just double down on my demand for a full refund. I paid $880 for the order, they are asking for $170 USD back for their processing and production costs. I am guessing thats probably the entire materials cost - these guys SUCK.
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Glad to see that you'll be getting your money back. Maybe HF will take their customers more seriously from now on.
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Latest correspondence:
7/25/18 (Hongfu): how are you recently? Is there, only if you cancel the dispute and click to agree to negotiate, I will refund the money I paid before
7/27/18 (Alibaba.com): This email is sent to you regarding your Trade Assurance order 92269996205205. We contacted the seller and they agreed to refund you 710USD to cancel the order, because they had already prepared the goods as per your request in the contract. They will upload product picture in the dispute detail page.
Please kindly reflect the mutual agreement on the refund amount within 2 days.
However I haven't replied to anything because I am assuming my credit card is taking care of it. I might reply to Alibaba.com and just double down on my demand for a full refund. I paid $880 for the order, they are asking for $170 USD back for their processing and production costs. I am guessing thats probably the entire materials cost - these guys SUCK.
Lmao, they want 170 just for their time. They are acting like ordering a frame is similar to commissioning artwork, ridiculous. This is partly why I am souring from Chiner frames.
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Been following this thread for a little bit and have a few thoughts:
1) It does take a bit of time to understand what is going on with these Chiner frames.
2) Yes, even though most all have photos of their "factory" on their sites, most are just sellers and do not produce the frames. Understand that!
3) Most frames are not kept in stock, they are made to order. No one wants to stock inventory. If they were in stock it should only take 1-2 days before shipping (other than paint) If it takes a few weeks for them to "ship" your frame then it wasn't built to begin with.
4) It seems as though in this case they are trying to recover $170.00 for the build cost of the frame that was started even though the order was canceled. I'm not saying who is right or who is wrong in this situation but it's understandable as to why they want to keep $170.00
4) If someone is thinking about a Chiner frame please do not "need" it in a certain time frame. It's going to take a while for it to finally show up at your door. Just know that up front.
5) For any of the Chiner sellers reading this, please be open to honest and timely communication. It will help from receiving negative feedback from buyers. After all people WILL talk ;)
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Just a few advices for everyone buying a frame from chinese sellers.
-Never pay the full price until they are ready to ship. Give an account of around 10% first.
-Ask for pictures before full payment.
-If you see something wrong on the picture, ask them to correct the problem and send you new pictures before full payment.
Remember, what they want is your money so they will be easier to deal with as long as they don't get all what you own them! :)
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Just a few advices for everyone buying a frame from chinese sellers.
-Never pay the full price until they are ready to ship. Give an account of around 10% first.
-Ask for pictures before full payment.
-If you see something wrong on the picture, ask them to correct the problem and send you new pictures before full payment.
Remember, what they want is your money so they will be easier to deal with as long as they don't get all what you own them! :)
Yeah this is good advice, makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't think they would produce the frame before payment but it's definitely something I will try in the future. I have to wait a couple months for the credit card company to finalize the dispute, its all up in the air for a couple billings cycles.
Hongfu ended up painting the frame anyway, using pictures to prove they produced my frame for evidence in their dispute. However when I asked for a refund the frame wasn't painted, and they sent me a picture of the raw frame as well. Super scummy!
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I ordered my WorksWell frame through Ebay to avoid this....my frame shipped within 2 days of the purchase. This was about 2.5 years ago, so I do not know how things may have changed.
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The latest update is ridiculous:
- Hongfu decides to paint the frame anyway and prepare it for shipment.
- Alibaba.com declines refund application due to insufficient evidence. (I had attached the entire email thread with Hongfu, screenshots, etc.)
- I ask Hongfu for a refund again, over email.
7/25/18 8:11pm Hongfu: Hi Sam，how are you recently? Is there, only if you cancel the dispute and click to agree to negotiate, I will refund the money I paid before
8/2/18 2:37am Hongfu: Hello, we have received the Alibaba dispute notification, Alibaba let us continue to ship your goods. We are not forcing you to buy this frame. It’s just that we have done the frame. If you really don’t want it, we need to charge a certain fee. Then we will return the rest of the money to you. If you need this frame, we will continue to ship. please confirm
8/2/18 7:00pm Hongfu: hi sam, have you recevied my letter,what is your thought？
8/3/18 5:06pm Me: Robert, Respectfully I would like a full refund.
8/3/18 6:57pm ---Hongfu ships order---
8/3/18 8:12pm Hongfu: I am sorry that Best Regards,Robert
(not joking, that is literally the email I received)
8/6/18 10:33am Me: Robert,
I see this morning that the items have been shipped. This is absolutely what I did not want. I asked for a refund respectfully before the frame was customized or processed, then I asked for a refund many more times before August, now you have shipped the items anyway. This is against all of my wishes and requests.
I am formally letting you know that I will be refusing this shipment - and it will be returned to sender.
I called up my CC company as well and told them the latest. They advised me to refuse the shipment, and that they had still not received a reply from the merchant bank. I've basically done all I can at this point to not get this frame lol.
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I'm gonna need another tub of popcorn, it seems the drama isn't quite over yet.
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Man, these Hongfu fools are incredible. Talk about a fraudulent charge in progress lol.
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Ok guys... This got pretty damn funny (and ridiculous)
Aug 7 12:33am: (Hongfu) i have no way Best Regards, Robert
(Basically, in english: I don't even)
Aug 13 12:25pm: Tracking number text updates indicated package arrived in San Fransisco Intl.
---Package scheduled for delivery Aug 14th---
Aug 13 8:00am: I call up USPS and mark the package for RTS (Return to sender) preemptively and told all my roommates to refuse package on delivery.
Aug 14 11:00am: Package shows up at house for signature and my roommate refuses the package
Thinking im in the clear at this point something VERY strange happens
Aug 14 12:00am: Package gets scheduled for redelivery in my name
Aug 15 8:00am: My USPS mail guy calls me up and asks if I did the redelivery... "No way, that was NOT me"
Either USPS systems had a big of a glitch, or someone is really trying to deliver that package. Semi-Final thoughts: If you buy from Hongfu bikes, be aware that they are scammers in my estimation. I highly recommend Peter at xmcarbonspeed, and have had great experiences with Farsports (or Wheelsfar).
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I can understand you frustration.
Maybe a lesson for others would be to just wait on their frame to avoid ending up in the mess you are in?
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Maybe a lesson for others would be to just wait on their frame to avoid ending up in the mess you are in?
Am I reading what am I reading? Somebody pinch me, help..
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This is my fear with buying overseas, that their "# in stock" is a lie and I'll wait pretty much the maximum allowed time. I know AliExpress will refund you if the item does not make it there in 60 days. I'm guessing Alibaba does not have the same protections, because a later cutoff date was indicated upthread.
I think it's just accurate to say that if a company has a written policy to guarantee ship by a certain date, you can't count on anything better than that date. Unless you get a promise in writing.
I agree that the company was informed before production. I hope the refund gets processed. But what the company knows is they have an order and they figure they can enforce it by the Alibaba rules, so they will try. Not the best way to conduct business, but this is why the best defense is to discuss online so others can make informed decisions.
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^^Alibabba is sketchy, all those protections they plaster over their site are BS. I posted earlier in the thread that I went thru a similar ordeal. The seller knowingly sent me a broken frame, and not only that it wasn't even the effin frame I ordered! They still sent it, hoping to stick me with the fees and cost. I lol'd at them as Chase laid the hammer down on them.
Maybe a lesson for others would be to just wait on their frame to avoid ending up in the mess you are in?
Am I reading what am I reading? Somebody pinch me, help..
He probably works for Hongfu. That or he felt compelled just to join and post that? :o
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He probably works for Hongfu. That or he felt compelled just to join and post that? :o
Hey, i'm not trying to be a dick, but in all fairness when dealing with these Chiner companies you do need to know how these transactions work. Now, i'm not sticking up for anyone or any company specifically. It's difficult to know exactly where these open mold frames are physically made. I'm sure Peter from Carbon Speed doesn't manufacture all the frames he sells. Hongfu, Dengfu, Workswell, Ican or whomever never makes all the frames they sell. These companies do deals with each other and give permission to sell each others frames. Hell, some of the places don't produce products at all, they are just re-sellers.
In this case here, the buyer was not happy waiting for as long as he did to receive his frame. So, he decided to purchase it from another seller who had it in stock. Through the buyers own words he mentioned he "assumed" the frame was in stock from Hongfu. The first mistake Hongfu made was to tell him to purchase it through Aliexpress. That to me right there throws up a red flag. I have only dealt with the selling companies directly. It's possible they were trying to get the sale straight away knowing they did not have the frame in stock. Bad business practices for sure! In the early discussions it appears Honfu told the buyer the frame was in production and then would need to be painted. If that is true then the buyer should expect to pay some recovery fee for a project that had been started, even though it's supposed to be an item that would usually be stocked (or maybe they had to order it from another company and the frame was in production). The buyer requested the order be canceled even though it had been started. Hongfu then decided to force the frame down the buyers throat, which in my opinion, has done nothing but cause bad blood and horrible reviews. Well deserved by them. Hopefully the credit card company can get this sorted and funds returned.
Moral of the story, either verify for sure the seller has the frame in their hands, or search around for someone trustworthy that does. If neither of these situations can be verified, then be prepared to wait a long time to receive your frame. Do not be in a hurry!
Just my $.02 worth :-\
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He probably works for Hongfu. That or he felt compelled just to join and post that? :o
Hey, i'm not trying to be a dick, but in all fairness when dealing with these Chiner companies you do need to know how these transactions work. Now, i'm not sticking up for anyone or any company specifically. It's difficult to know exactly where these open mold frames are physically made. I'm sure Peter from Carbon Speed doesn't manufacture all the frames he sells. Hongfu, Dengfu, Workswell, Ican or whomever never makes all the frames they sell. These companies do deals with each other and give permission to sell each others frames. Hell, some of the places don't produce products at all, they are just re-sellers.
In this case here, the buyer was not happy waiting for as long as he did to receive his frame. So, he decided to purchase it from another seller who had it in stock. Through the buyers own words he mentioned he "assumed" the frame was in stock from Hongfu. The first mistake Hongfu made was to tell him to purchase it through Alibaba. That to me right there throws up a red flag. I have only dealt with the selling companies directly. It's possible they were trying to get the sale straight away knowing they did not have the frame in stock. Bad business practices for sure! In the early discussions it appears Honfu told the buyer the frame was in production and then would need to be painted. If that is true then the buyer should expect to pay some recovery fee for a project that had been started, even though it's supposed to be an item that would usually be stocked (or maybe they had to order it from another company and the frame was in production). The buyer requested the order be canceled even though it had been started. Hongfu then decided to force the frame down the buyers throat, which in my opinion, has done nothing but cause bad blood and horrible reviews. Well deserved by them. Hopefully the credit card company can get this sorted and funds returned.
Moral of the story, either verify for sure the seller has the frame in their hands, or search around for someone trustworthy that does. If neither of these situations can be verified, then be prepared to wait a long time to receive your frame. Do not be in a hurry!
Just my $.02 worth :-\
Yeah I don't disagree with anything you said there. I will say that i've ordered 4 chiner's including this one, and understand all the implications that go along with agreeing to purchase this type of product. We all know here that the business practices of these companies are... suspect... to say the least (with a couple exceptions). There's impatience on my side for sure, and I have that privileged attitude of the classic american consumer.
At any rate this whole thing is an opinion PSA to those who are considering purchasing from HongFu. Potential customers need to know that if you'd like to amicably back out of the deal they will go the extra mile to make your life a living hell. The only reason i'm not stressed about it is because the CC company already gave me my money back - the only thing I needed to do was refuse the frame at all costs. Others may not be so fortunate.
What irk'd me about HongFu is that they purposefully dragged their feet and gave me the run around, the MOMENT I said "refund" they turned around, finished the frame, painted it, and shipped it within 5 days (or so). After literally 60 days.
One more thing worth speculating: What if they hadn't performed any production or labour before I said "refund"? Is there any way of knowing? They expected me to pay their arbitrary costs based on no evidence. I could go on and on but you get the idea.
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One more thing worth speculating: What if they hadn't performed any production or labour before I said "refund"? Is there any way of knowing? They expected me to pay their arbitrary costs based on no evidence. I could go on and on but you get the idea.
You are absolutely correct here! Hongfu did a horrible job of communicating with you (probably because they were trying to rip you off). And because of their actions their name is being dragged in the mud, which they deserve!!
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One more thing worth speculating: What if they hadn't performed any production or labour before I said "refund"? Is there any way of knowing? They expected me to pay their arbitrary costs based on no evidence. I could go on and on but you get the idea.
You are absolutely correct here! Hongfu did a horrible job of communicating with you (probably because they were trying to rip you off). And because of their actions their name is being dragged in the mud, which they deserve!!
+1
And no I don't work ant HongFu.
I am just lurking here to see what frame to buy and from who. Thanks to this thread I will probably not buy from HongFu (One of my original candidates).
I am not arguing against that HongFu have acted as complete a_holes, just saying that when having ordered something (especially custom) have a bit of patience to avoid the mess TS has gotten himself in. You are buing cheap (compared to Scott, Canyon etc) frames from China, not from EU/US retailers.
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Any update on this?
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I've ordered a few frames from Hongfu and have not had these problems. I have usually emailed back and forth with Daisy. I actually have one on order now. My first question is always "do you have X frame in Y size in stock or will I have to wait for it?". I require the largest frames they make, which they don't seem to stock as well. My experience is they have delivered what they said and when they said. I wouldn't trash the whole company on one interaction, but take it as a lesson to get as much info as possible before giving them any money.
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I ordered a FM258 from Hung Fu back on June 20th. They were up front with me that my size was not in stock, and that it could be about 50 days before shipping. I told them that would be fine as long as I had it by Aug 15th for an upcoming race in Sept. At 40 days I emailed them to make sure everything was on schedule. At 50 days I emailed again and the frame was ready and shipped on 8/10. It shipped to me in AZ and was received Aug. 18th. Very happy with how "Jenny/Vicky" handled the transaction. Very happy with the frame and the quality. Had a great race. In fact I just ordered their FM008 road frame from them today.
Obviously your experience was not the same. I agree. Hong Fu should have communicated better with you. They should have refunded you the purchase (had the frame not been painted prior). They could have easily put the frame back into inventor for resale. Although, if they couldn't resale your frame quickly, they would have most likely taken a loss on it. These Chinese companies don't have huge margins in their products.
I just wanted to share my experience. I think just about every Chinese vendor has communication screw ups like yours. The minute they realize they couldn't get your order to you as promised they should have let you know. But the fear of them losing the sale probably convinced them to not do so. So they used tactics to try to stretch the time frame. This is a common practice with all goods from China. Look at all the stretched out deliver dates on Aliexpress. 10-30 days is not uncommon for delivery. And I've had vendors ask for extensions on top of that, even after purchase. This, unfortunately, is the cost of getting discounts of 60-75% off the big name brands. As an American that loves his fast food, fast cars, and Amazon Prime shipping.... its really hard to wait, but knowing I saved $2000++ on a build that I personally selected the parts/paint for, makes it much easier.
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Hey guys thanks for all the comments, and yeah I agree with everyone - definitely shouldn't judge a whole company based on one experience. Like I said in the subject line, buyer beware.
In the end I had to refuse delivery on the frame multiple times and the credit card company laughed at the whole situation and let me keep my money. Never heard from hong fu again, never heard from alibaba again. I will be buying more chiner frames just not from hongfu out of principle.
--Sam