Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: Midwest-MTBer on June 07, 2016, 08:10:30 PM
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Hello,
It's been a few years since I joined the forums, but I finally have enough financial stability (thanks college) to begin a Chiner build! I've never really completely built a bike from scratch before, so I'm looking for resources and part lists that I can steal ideas and components that I need. I'm thinking in general of building a CS-036 with SRAM XX 2x10 and carbon rims. I want an upgrade from the titanium behemoth I'm riding now. So... If you guys could point me to some threads that would help me out and just in general put up with my first timer questions that would be great!
- Midwest
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There are several posts from other members who have built a CS/IP-036, the SEARCH function works well on Chinertown. Here is my build thread: http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,4.msg22.html#msg22
I've made it a Sticky Thread in the forum so it's easy for others to find.
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Here is my build thread for my 036:
http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,829.0.html
Here is a thread to issues with issues regarding the linkage in the chainstay on the 036 frame - We are at least 2 that have seen the issue:
http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,906.0.html
Karsten
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Thanks guys. I really appreciate the links! I'll be sure to check around thoroughly for more stuff.
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So I've done my homework on this frame and I'm starting to pick up components. I'm trying to figure out if I'll have enough room in the cable housings to run the following:
Remote rear lockout
Dropper seat post
Rear derailleur
Front derailleur
Any opinions?
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You can run 3 cables internally, exiting for the rear shock, forward and rear derailer. If you are keen (and Id assume voids warranty) drill a hole in the exit point of the inner routing tube that exits near the top of the crank then you could run a stealth seat dropper. A big call though. Otherwise you will need to run the seat dropper post table externally all the way.
Jump over to here for a good discussion on what you can do http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/dual-suspension-chinese-carbon-29er-737952-66.html
If you are going to buy the frame from Peter, buy the carbon rims with the Novatec hubs as well. The rims have been great so far.
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You can run 3 cables internally, exiting for the rear shock, forward and rear derailer. If you are keen (and Id assume voids warranty) drill a hole in the exit point of the inner routing tube that exits near the top of the crank then you could run a stealth seat dropper. A big call though. Otherwise you will need to run the seat dropper post table externally all the way.
Jump over to here for a good discussion on what you can do http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/dual-suspension-chinese-carbon-29er-737952-66.html
If you are going to buy the frame from Peter, buy the carbon rims with the Novatec hubs as well. The rims have been great so far.
Thanks kaiser. I think I might just save a few bucks and get an externally running dropper seatpost as well. In terms of the wheels, I was thinking of going with the DT Swiss 350 hubs. Do you see any advantage that the Novatec hubs might have?
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It's hard to go wrong with DT Swiss hubs, although I'm sure the Novatec hubs would also be decent and a bit cheaper. I'm must a fanboy of the DT Swiss star ratchet design.
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Thanks Carbon_Dude. I think I'm gonna stick with the DT Swiss hubs. Does anyone have any opinions on the best methods to control a rear Fox CTD shock and a front Fox CTD fork at the same time? I know there have been a few builds with different methods, but I'm having a hard time finding any hardware other than a cable splitter that you basically run to one remote.
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For controlling the shocks, I use a Scott Twin-Loc lever, cost was $60 from the LBS. I tried the Fox lever and splitter and found their solution terrible.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/S2k_Dude/Carbon%20FS%2029er/twin-loc-lever-1.jpg)
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Thanks Carbon Dude, I was able to chat with my LBS and get a estimate on the price to get one in. I think I'll hold off for now, but I'm pretty convinced it's a worthy upgrade.
Another sort of odd question, but I'm ordering a NECO headset from Peter along with my frame. Does this headset include bearings, race etc.?
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The Neco from Peter is a complete headset, everything you need including the crown race, lower bearing, upper bearing, inner bearing spacer, a couple thin shims, the cap with expansion nut, and a little plastic plug for the hex bolt. No problems with the two that I've gotten from Peter for the two different frames.
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Thanks Carbon Dude. Out of curiosity did you by a wheel set from Peter? He's given me the option to buy rims without having spoke holes (eliminating the need for rim tape) and I'm wondering how you would install a valve stem...
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Thanks Carbon Dude. Out of curiosity did you by a wheel set from Peter? He's given me the option to buy rims without having spoke holes (eliminating the need for rim tape) and I'm wondering how you would install a valve stem...
You will still have a hole for that :)
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I ordered the same rims from Peter, just to try to be tubeless tapeless :)
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Interesting ???
How does it work to mount the wheel? How do you get the nipples in place? You can't use a nipple driver, right?
Must be a pain, no?
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Here are short videos from Peter that shows how it works:
https://youtu.be/HtXxs5gOqNc
https://youtu.be/jJvNv5NT3lw
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I was wondering if they needed to use steel nipples in order to use a magnet to move the nipple in place but they put in a threaded steel part in the brass or alloy nipple first then remove it before inserting the spoke.
It's a nice system, particularly compared to my Sun-Ringle Mulefut rims which have lots of leak paths.
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Nice! I like the concept.
Honestly tape doesn't look good to me. That's what I use, it works fine but... I just don't consider that a good design. I really like those no-hole rims, but I'm not ready to build a wheel with those. I will keep it as simple as possible for my next 2-3 wheelset.
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Honestly tape doesn't look good to me. That's what I use, it works fine but... I just don't consider that a good design.
Doesn't look good? Isn't it covered by your tire in almost all conditions? :D
Aside from not looking good, curious why you don't think it's a good design. It's simple, it works, results in a wheel that's easy to build... hard to fault it.
I like the concept of the rim with no holes in it, but haven't seen any design that makes me think it would be anything less than a huge pain to build. If you can ignore the wheelbuilder's pain (I can't as it is mine) it's a nice setup as long as there aren't any design issues that would otherwise compromise the wheel. I've gotta say I like the drag-it-through-with-a-magnet approach far better than Mavic's approach of threading into the rim.
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Well, my "problem" with tape is that it's temporary. I use it the right way (clean the rim, start before the valve and finish after the valve so that it is locked in place by the valve) but still it's... tape :) I never had any issue with it but it can be damaged while taking off a tire. I don't have 100% confidence in it.
It works with someone experienced. I wouldn't let my wife or my son setup a wheel, it would leak for sure.
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Carbonazza, How do you like your rims? Peter is only going to charge an extra $5 for the set of rims without the holes in them. Do you think they hold a seal as well? Any change to the amount of sealant you use with the system? I'm pretty stoked about the whole idea... The cheapest tape I could find was about $12 a roll for 25mm.
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Here is my first laced wheel !! Not yet completed/tensioned though 8)
(http://i.imgur.com/zbhwwdQ.jpg)
The magnet procedure seen on Peter's videos is easy.
Well... I lost a nipple in the rim, when unscrewing it the first time only, and it was a pain to get it out.
But after a few times, it becomes a very easy move.
Thanks to the book of Roger Musson, I'm doing good so far.
I'll see tomorrow how it goes on the truing stand :o
The seal should be better than a tape(that can fail or not correctly placed).
And there should be the same amount of sealant I guess.
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Yes, same amount of sealant. the sealant shouldn't be there to seal the tape to the rim, only the tire to the rim, the sidewall, and any punctures :).
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Here are some pictures of the wheel finished.
All in all it was very instructive and easier than it looks.
(http://i.imgur.com/TN3yocp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/JzSoBwL.jpg)
The rear wheel was built first.
I didn't check the dish early and had to correct it late which is not good.
(http://i.imgur.com/P7xkXos.jpg)
These are sapim C-Xray and Secure Locks nipples.
I see on that picture that some blades could be better aligned :)
(http://i.imgur.com/VJp2zWE.jpg)
Here is a view of the rim without holes.
Playing with the screws/nipple and a magnet is as easy as in Peter's video( not the first ones, but it comes quick ).
Due to their V-Shape, long valves are needed, probably 60mm or more.
I will buy Continental Tubes, with 82mm valves, and cut them. This is a far cheaper option than buying tubeless valves.
(http://i.imgur.com/OxRbtC3.jpg)
The front wheel was a major pain.
Not for the building in itself, but because there was a remaining piece of the plastic bag that inflates the carbon against the mold inside.
We saw that already in broken frames.
So it must be more common than we think.
However here, it prevented to move the nipples inside to 4 holes !
After fiddling a couple of hours, I was able to tear apart the plastic with a tip through the holes, and let the nipples move.
This is obviously a problem specific to no-hole rims.
Unfortunately one nipple+screw is still stuck in that plastic plug, it doesn't move anymore, even with a strong magnet.
And I can't ear anything, I'm afraid this will get out probably one day at a bad moment :(
I discussed this with Peter, that this could be checked in a minute on their side to not happen again.
I meticulously followed Roger Musson book too.
Although against some of his advices, I took high-end/exotic parts for my first build: carbon rims, bladed spokes, alloy nipples, and the no-holes rims.
I won't ride them before mid-July after my vacations.
If you never built a wheel, and like to tinker, do not hesitate to try, it is a very gratifying experience.
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I meticulously followed Roger Musson book too.
Although against some of his advices, I took high-end/exotic parts for my first build: carbon rims, bladed spokes, alloy nipples, and the no-holes rims.
Wheel looks good!
Honestly I think building with bladed spokes makes the first build easier. so much easier to prevent spoke twist, which is part of why most builders suggest against using light spokes for a first build. Starting with straight 14g makes spoke twist more or less irrelevant.
Same for building with those carbon rims... I think most builders warn against _light_ rims more than carbon - and the size/shape of those is going to make them very strong and more predictable, I'd think.
Alloy nipples aren't a problem if you're careful, but round it off and you just replace it. Not a HUGE problem.
Now as for the no-holes rims, you already said how that went for you, but you surmounted it nicely.
Great job! You'll be really happy to ride those wheels.
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I think building with bladed spokes makes the first build easier.
Definitely, bladed spokes make it obvious when they twist.
Although the aero is not that significant for MTB, it appears they make stiffer wheels for accelerating/braking and as strong if not stronger as round spokes.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/seven-essential-features-new-wheels-must-232168
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Carbonazza, I'm going to be curious to see the valves that you end up using. I bought a set of American Classic tubeless valves, and I'm curious to see if they'll work with this shape rim.
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I think building with bladed spokes makes the first build easier.
Definitely, bladed spokes make it obvious when they twist.
Although the aero is not that significant for MTB, it appears they make stiffer wheels for accelerating/braking and as strong if not stronger as round spokes.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/seven-essential-features-new-wheels-must-232168
"Aero spokes are also used in mountain biking (where aerodynamic are not a factor) because they are just as strong if not stronger than standard round spokes, while they are also stiffer under acceleration and braking."
Wrong. The blade forming process improved the fatigue life through cold working. It does not change the stiffness in any way, shape, or form. The stiffness of the metal doesn't change, and the cross section remains the same. A bladed spoke will lend the same stiffness to a wheel as the source round spoke. This is along the same lines as the "radial lacing is stiffer" fallacy.
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@Midwest-MTBer, I'm away for 15 days, when I'm back I'll give you details
@cmh, ok, we can just keep they are easier to see twisting
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@cmh, ok, we can just keep they are easier to see twisting
;D Yep - and don't forget the improvement in fatigue life, which is especially good with lightweight rims where the spokes may be subject to repeated zero-tension situations.
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Hi Carbonazza the wheels look great. Good work on building them! I have never done anything like that and I will probably get some one else to build my bike for me.
It's great that many of the members chinertown build their own bikes and some like yourself build wheels.
I have asked Peter for some prices for carbon wheel sets. I weigh around 185 pounds at the moment and probably 190 pounds with all my gear. Would you recommend 32 spokes over 28 spokes? I ride cross country mainly with some light trail riding. I am not into jumping etc and I am not particularly aggressive.
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28 may improve the aero drag over 32 (from Roger Musson) but the weight saving is marginal.
32 looks to be the standard, and there is no real reason to go against it.
I did 32 because for me they look stronger with more spokes.
My brother got his wheels built from Peter, and are great too.
Unfortunately he was hit by the random 48.5% anti-dumping tax for built wheels( it seems particularly enforced in Belgium, Spain and Italy ).
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I'm curious, has anyone here used the 035 frame with Cane Creek's DBInline shock? I have two of these on my other 26" frames, so I'm curious if there's any fitment issues or need for additional mounting hardware for this shock model. Anyone have an answer for me? Possibly a solution, if one is required?
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I know a lot of you guys suggest taking apart your 036 before riding to grease all the bushings. What grease or lubricant would you suggest? My dad is an old school biker and suggested some Phil Wood grease, but I'm not sure if that's the best option.
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I use Park Tools Polylube. Seems to be a good all around medium weight lubricant.
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Thanks CD. When you built your 036 did Peter include shock mounting bolts? I have all the bushings I need, but I don't know if I need to buy bolts or if they come with the frame. Are they a standard size?
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Yes, the frame included shock mounting bolts. They are not standard bolts, they are "Sex Bolts" (I'm not making this up). They are 8mm x some length.
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Does anyone know if the 036 will fit a 180mm rear disk brake? I'm wondering if I'm going to have to go down to a 160mm... :-\
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Does anyone know if the 036 will fit a 180mm rear disk brake? I'm wondering if I'm going to have to go down to a 160mm... :-\
An adapter probably exist, you need to look for a PM-PM.
You could as well put a 4 pistons brake on a 160mm if you think you need more stopping power.
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Does anyone know if the 036 will fit a 180mm rear disk brake? I'm wondering if I'm going to have to go down to a 160mm... :-\
An adapter probably exist, you need to look for a PM-PM.
You could as well put a 4 pistons brake on a 160mm if you think you need more stopping power.
I have a SRAM XO Trail 180mm for the rear. I have the adapter for it, I'm just concerned that the piston body will not have enough room with the other carbon linkage coming up from the chainstay.
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After paging through the enormous MTBR Forum post on full suspension chiners, I discovered that someone had built up a 036 with the 180mm rear brakes. Looks like the 160mm brake size limit is only on the 098 frame.