I’m going to be honest here: I very much miss the glory days of this forum during the pandemic years. It was a perfect storm. People were stuck at home with extra discretionary income and free-time, while major bike brands were dealing with fulfillment delays. The rise of Chinese alternatives during this time brought so much excitement to this forum. Forum members were passionate about helping each other, and the overall vibe felt like a positive community of budget-minded enthusiasts. You could easily spend hours each day reading pages upon pages of new posts. The forum was basically a party everyday. I’m lucky to have joined during COVID.

Now I don’t proclaim to be perfect or infallible to constructive criticism. Quite frankly, the support of this forum is a large reason why my YouTube platform even exists. I cannot thank you all enough. Sadly, a lot of the super experienced members don’t come here as often anymore. Perhaps the negative vibes these past 12 months ran them away or just simply their needs changed. Who knows…

What I do know is I plan to keep supporting the forum as long as it makes sense. I’ve started to review more mainstream bikes, but my heart will always have a place for affordable Chinese frames/wheels. It’s how I got my start (Yoeleo R6).

I wanted to write up a quick guide for anyone looking to jump into the world of “cheap” Chinese bikes. While I made a video on this very topic over a year ago, a reminder never hurt anyone.
PLEASE feel free to add your insight and guidance below.

Step 1: Passion Project vs Functionality
As a cycling reviewer, I obviously don’t have any emotional attachments to my bikes. Except for my believed T1500. To me it’s about being functional and fast. If the “best” frame for (my) price range and riding style only offers matte black…I’ll take it every time. Custom paint means nothing to me if the frame is either a noodle or destroys my back. But I’m a performance-first person.

Step 2: Riding Style and Geometry
Can you slam your stem? Cool for you. Do you prefer an endurance style bike? Also very cool. Geometry is critical obviously. I cannot stress seeking a professional bike fit enough. Or just comparing your current bike to your target bikes using something like Geometry Geeks.

Step 3: Budget vs “True” Budget
If your budget is “only $600” for a frame, ask yourself if an extra $300 will be significant to you a year from now. How about an extra $500? How about two years from now? Buy nice or buy twice. Might be worth spending the extra money if you plan to keep your bike for longer than two years. But be warned: cheap bikes are addicting.

Step 4: What is your “pain” threshold for cheap bikes?
Cheap bikes are cheap bikes for a reason. Sort of. The value-add for these types of bikes is you are willing to put in the work yourself to troubleshoot, should bike build problems arise. If you do however find yourself frustrated, fear not! The forum is here to help. Typically the more you spend, the less potential for problems to arise. Or the brand will be faster to rectify. Unless you’re Yoeleo…

Patty’s Brand Picks

$500 - VeloBuild - Custom paint, decent customer service, and solid provided hardware. Both the VB-177 and CX002 are very solid frames for the price. Won’t be the best performing frames ever, but they are “good enough.” You won’t get dropped from a race or fast group ride due to these frames.

$1000 or less - Yishun/Light Carbon - No question one of the best affordable brands/frames you can buy without spending money on a Winspace. Sadly…paint options and frame availability may be questionable since (Yishun) is setup for B2B. But the quality and performance is all there. Fit and finish is really good, except for the plastic headset dust cover on my particular application.

$1600 or less - Winspace - The T1500 has been talked about to death now for 4 years so there really isn’t anything left to cover. If you have the budget for it…buy it. Proven race bike. Fit and finish on par with the major brands.

Wheel Brand Recognition - Elite Wheels, Winspace, and Magene - All 3 brands are great at what they do.

The main thing these brands all have in common is they offer solid customer service. Each of them secretly lurk these forums, which means they are making an effort to listen to what customers want. Despite the fact Yoeleo makes solid bikes too, their customer service has been awful (again) based on customer feedback sent my way. Unfortunately my dealings with these brands for reviews does not translate to me being able to escalate customer complaints.

Always remember the forum is here to help. There are no stupid questions if you’ve taken a little bit of time to research previous threads and watch a few YouTube videos. The more honest and transparent we all are with our questions, the quicker and meaningful the responses will come. Spend the love!

This would be my selections if I was confident they are still fulfilling orders. I've always had great experiences with Wiggle and their Prime products.

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/p/prime-primavera-56-carbon-disc-wheelset

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/p/prime-primavera-aero-carbon-road-handlebar

So Yoeleo graciously sent me out their latest R12 frameset and 50mm Pro wheels to test and review. YouTube link is down below.

Frame - R12 (Refreshed/Revamped) - $1590
Size 56, Hemidium paint
Weight 1305g for the frame

Wheels - SAT C50|50 DB PRO - $899 usd
50mm depth, 27mm external, 21mm internal
YOELEO 230 SP Ratchet System Hub 52T (basically DT Swiss)

Initial Thoughts:
The packaging, presentation, and included hardware for the frameset is fantastic. Equally as good as when I purchased my Allez Sprint. UCI-approved (if that's important), flawless paint job, and no imperfections around the exposed carbon areas. No question the frame is on par with Winspace visually.

The Elephant in the Room - Customer Service
I've had meetings with Yoeleo and their marketing team where I told them I would not review or endorse their products moving forward until they resolve customer service issues for Western customers. Like SEKA, it seems for a while that Yeoleo were giving preferential treatment to their domestic audience. I've had personal friends of mine get burned by Yoeleo, after they made purchases solely from my video reviews. Back in 2021-early 2022 Yoeleo were quoting people 1 month for fulfillments, which ended in customers doing CC chargebacks after 8-9 months of no frame. The good news is I've spoken to recent customers who tell me Yoeleo is back to their days of good service as they were back in 2020 when I first built my R9. Fast to respond to customers and they actually have a full stock of the R12s.

$1590 isn't cheap, but you're getting Winspace-tier perceived quality. And their latest G21 gravel bike is freakin awesome. I'll report back my bike build progresses. I have to finish building this before my Tan Tan x38 frame arrives

YouTube Keyword Search: Yoeleo R12 Unboxing and Overview - The Return To Greatness?

https://www.instagram.com/standertbicycles/

https://standert.de/collections/triebwerk-disc

I'm told their frames are made in Taiwan. Really liking their Triebwerk steel frames with classic geometry, but the frameset prices are STEEP. Wondering if any Far East factories offer a similar frame, or other brands in general for a steel classic disc frame. Thanks!

So I have one of these coming my way. Attached is a photo from the factory

https://rinascltabike.com/granite-aero-disc-road-frame/

-Geometry is more road than gravel
-I ordered a size M/54
-No integrated handlebars, will be using my tried and true FSA NO.69/SRS headset to route the cables.
-700c*38mm max tires size
-While I have an actual gravel bike (Yoeleo G21), it's mostly overkill around here.
-Chose unpainted in order to inspect any flaws, lower the production time, and I genuinely enjoy painting my own frames.

I asked if they share this frame with any other brands, and their response was:
"We share the frame mold with only one friend across internet"

Obviously it's Airwolf since the photos are identical on both websites.

Will keep you posted...

Howdy,

What are folks using these days for pure cyclocross frames? Earlier today I helped my bike club setup the CX course for our annual local race. Not a single person I seen was using a gravel bike, only CX specific setups.

And now I have fear of missing out. Any suggestions?

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to create a guide to help troubleshoot headset play regardless of bike brand. By no means am I an expert, and I hope others can add to this thread. Please understand this guide/thread isn't intended for airing our bike brand grievances or calling out user errors. Ultimately we all just want our bikes to work as intended.

Common Reasons For Headset Play

1. Steerer/Fork isn't cut low enough, or an extra spacer is required above the stem to properly compress the top cap. When initially cutting the steer tube, an extra 2-4mm below the cut line needs to be accounted for in order for the top cap to recess properly.

2. The headset bearing (upper or lower) doesn't sit inside the head tube cup snug enough (laterally, front to back). Velobuild, for example, provides 52mm diameter headset bearings. Other headsets sold online or for other bike brands may only be 51.8mm diameter. That 0.2mm is the difference between a snug fit or loose headset. If your bearings are loose this will always cause play. You can add a couple layers of tape inside the bearing cup to prevent the bearing from moving around. Or just buy a new 52mm headset.

3. The top headset bearing is recessed too far into the head tube cup, causing the headset cover to rub on the frame, preventing the complete headset stack to properly compress. If this is the case you will need a thicker headset bearing (7mm, 7.5mm or 8mm thick) or a thicker c-ring so that it sits flush with the top of the headset opening on the frame, thus preventing the headset cover from rubbing the frame. EDIT: Another resolution is adding some micro spacers between the c-ring and top cap.

4. The upper and lower headset bearings are installed in reverse. Some bikes (like Yoeleo's recent G21 gravel bike) provide a set of headset bearings, with one of the two bearings being slightly thicker than the other. The thicker of the two bearings needs to be installed on top of the head tube, and the thinner bearing on the bottom. If these two bearings are installed in reverse order then...see Common Issue #3

It is critical to do a dry run of installing the crown race, headset bearings, c-ring, headset cap, stem/cockpit, and any additional spacers before actually proceeding to building up the bike. Also be sure to compare and inspect the two headset bearings to confirm they are in fact the same size and thickness.

This week has been a disaster for Chinese brands. I've seen forum users in here, myself, and viewers of my videos all get treated unfavorable as customers. The same brands I've highlighted on my channel.

True we have come to accept the small quirks and extra effort required in exchange for saving a few dollars on a frameset and wheels. Mistakes happen across all price points from bike brands. However, this underlying attitude from these companies is reaching a boiling point for me. I don't believe in the philosophy of "the customer is always right" but..."making things right/fair" should at least be a priority especially if a company actually cares about their public perception.

Here are few examples....from just this week.

#1 - I recently posted a video about my favorite Chinese cycling apparel brand. Yesterday a viewer subsequently made a purchase of a particular jersey. The brand then contacted the customer to tell him the style he wanted was sold out, despite the website showing in stock in his size. The brand refused to refund him his money and told him simply to "select another style." That's not how customer service works.

#2 - Being sent a set of wheels to review only to discover the end caps are faulty. I appreciate the brand immediately responding and admitting fault for sending me a pre-production wheelset. However, I have no assurance (other than their word) this wont affect future (paying) customers in the production version. Why wasn't this issue caught during the testing phase? And how do I know paying customers will be treated with the same level of customer service?

#3 - Both the Elite Wheels and VeloBuild wheel issues this week. Ehhhh I'll just leave it at that...

This may sound radical but, sometimes the customer is actually right. The sad thing is I have YET to see any of these budget/open mold brands openly take full accountability for the clear cut mistakes. Refusing to honor warrant claims, offering only partial refunds, ghosting customers, bait & switch tactics, and asking the customer to pay for postage for missing components is disappointing.

I can't continue to fully support/endorse the sub-$1000 brands if they aren't making strides to improve their customer service. And this is despite personally having a generally positive experience with all of them. The root issue isn't "cHiNeSe bRaNdS" like Reddit wants you to believe. It's customer service.