Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: seat_boy on August 16, 2014, 01:13:04 PM
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Hello all,
This is my first post here, though I've been following these carbon frames for a while. I'm the guy that organized a lot of the hardtail 29er info in my blog post. Check it out here:
http://bikingtoplay.blogspot.com/2013/11/chinese-carbon-bike-frames.html
After that post, I ended up with a Krampus, though I found it to be too heavy and pokey for much enjoyment. I then bought a Sette Razzo carbon frame off ebay. I was pretty sure I wouldn't like carbon fiber: I'm a steel guy at heart, and I've had mixed feelings about the two carbon frames I'd demo'd previously (older Gary Fisher Superfly was stiff and dead feeling, newer Trek Superfly was nice http://bikingtoplay.blogspot.com/2013/11/trek-factory-demo-niner-and-gryphon-sold.html (http://bikingtoplay.blogspot.com/2013/11/trek-factory-demo-niner-and-gryphon-sold.html)enough, but $4000!), so I didn't want to invest a lot into a CF frame.
Somewhat to my surprise, I found I enjoyed the Razzo quite a bit:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_dZDYtX6SrI/U-fPmnEkaYI/AAAAAAAAOM8/nxWp8XOj3dU/s912/Sette%2520Razzo%2520sus.JPG)
It was light and smooth, but still responsive to my pedaling efforts. A nice combination.
But...
Ideally, I would like the top tube to be a bit shorter, as well as the chainstays, I wouldn't mind more standover, and I'd like to run it with a carbon fork and a big fat tire up front.
So, I just sent dough off to Peter for an 20" IP-106 with a matching fork. I figure I'll build it up 1x9 with a Knard up front and my Mission 2.4 on the back. I think that will fit.
Stay tuned.
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Welcome to Chinertown.. Looks like you've caught the "build another chiner even though I just built one" bug that's going around, lol. I currently have plans for two separate chiners. Don't "need " either one lol. It's just if you buy all Chinese carbon, the price is very reasonable. Makes owning multiple sweet full carbon rides a reality for a lot of guys/gals.
Just curious why you're going 1x9 rather than 1x10?
Looking forward to following your build thread!
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I've seen your blog before, lots of good info on carbon frames. Welcome to Chinertown!
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1x9 simply because that's what I have on hand. With a 32 x 12/36, I can handle all of my local trails (that's not saying much in Central Ohio)
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1x9 simply because that's what I have on hand. With a 32 x 12/36, I can handle all of my local trails (that's not saying much in Central Ohio)
Ok, I gotcha. I guess considering that your Sette is a single speed, nine speed should be plenty.
How do you like that X Fusion fork? I've read good things.. good price, too. I think we're going to start seeing more of those on builds.
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I'm no suspension expert, but prior to the X Fusion I had a Reba that had been PUSH'd. I think the X Fusion performs pretty similarly: smooth, nice action. I've had it for a few years now, and it's been dead reliable (keeping in mind I was riding much of that time rigid, so the X Fusion has only had intermittent usage).
I wouldn't have any hesitation about getting another X Fusion fork. I also had a 26er Enix on my FSR which also performed well.
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Got my tracking number yesterday, so the obsessive checking has begun!
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Refresh
Refresh
Refresh :)
I'm pretty spoiled by UPS and Fedex tracking. The EMS tracking system is almost worse than no tracking, since it shows (for me, anyway) no updates for nearly a week until the package is turned over to the local post office. Frustrating, but if waiting for a Chiner is your biggest worry then life is good.
And welcome to Chinertown- your page was helpful to me in reviewing the different frames.
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I'm in the same boat, almost literally, my tracking numbers arrived on Monday. I forget the exact page, but I used an alternate site t OK run the tracking info. While it just pulls from the EMS, it also links a map from google maps, so you can see where it is. Being inSan Diego, I'm expecting to see my stuff early next week.
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324r, I see on your Sette that you stacked a lot of spacers under your stem...is that how it came or is that about fit?
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I just got done with my ip-106 build I have a thread in here on it. The 106 Frame is the same bike as the Focus raven 1.0. Its got interesting designs on the rear stays...they flare out but are thin to make the rear get some compliance. I really like the frame mine was finished well.
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My spacers are for fit... that gets the bars about even with the saddle.
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324r, I see on your Sette that you stacked a lot of spacers under your stem...is that how it came or is that about fit?
As soon as my stuff said released from customs in San Franscisco, it was at my door in AZ within 24 hours. All four times actually.
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My frame is in NY, so it's very close... too bad I'm going on a business trip through Wednesday :(
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Got my frame today--actually yesterday, but I was 200 miles away--and I'll have pics up soon.
One question for those who've done this before: I will run this 1x9, so what to do with the cable lining for the front derailer that's currently poking out of the frame? I'd like to preserve the possibility of a front derailer in the future.
I also realized that, while I have a torque wrench, I need to pick up an allen key attachment for it. Off to the hardware store tomorrow.
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You don't need that running to run the cables at a later date. Go ahead and pull it out. In fact, the two IP-256SL frames I built up with custom paint from Iplay didn't even come with the hoses in the frame. It's perhaps a bit more difficult, but at least on the IP-256SL, you can look down the down tube and fish the cable down to the aces panel under the BB. From there, going up to the seat post or down the chain stay was easy. The IP-106 might be more difficult though. If you do pull the tubing, keep it in the tool box, don't pitch it.
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I plan to put a telescopic seatpost on my 256.
I replaced the front derailleur white hose by a brake cable..
One end of the cable is waiting high in the seat tube.
The other end is out, taped on the top side of the frame.
The day I place the seatpost.
Hopefully, I will just have to attach the command hose to my cable, and pull it in through the frame up to the seatpost.
Without having to dismantle the BB or the headset.
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So the box came through A-OK:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-L9h7uBOXNIE/U__aSB8hPDI/AAAAAAAAOeI/BMVN5hJh0a8/s912/IMG_1124.JPG)
And the frame was well packed:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5ibKO0UmoXk/U__aS3eXzMI/AAAAAAAAOeQ/f_LTkhE9EqY/s912/IMG_1126.JPG)
I ship quite a few frames, due to all my buying and selling, and I have to admit the iplay does a better job packing frames than I do.
So light even a small child can lift it one handed!
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1qY9_ddJSiQ/U__aUXIltvI/AAAAAAAAOeg/TgZUSjEjQT0/s912/IMG_1128.JPG)
I also got a fork, headset, matching spacers, and a spare derailer hanger:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1HyjeA_4Pj0/U__aWXMsheI/AAAAAAAAOew/5ChxFzRM6ic/s912/IMG_1130.JPG)
Tip: the frame doesn't include a seat clamp, so order one of those when you place your order. I stole one from my Sette.
Time to break out this guy:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-K0yKVAehSv4/U__aXKZQauI/AAAAAAAAOe4/uz6KhfRBjss/s912/IMG_1131.JPG)
Also, there's some carbon paste in the background.
I spent Thursday night stripping down my Razzo and cleaning those parts, and setting up my wheels and tires. I couldn't do any real work on my new frame, since I didn't have a hex attachment for my torque wrench, and thus couldn't even torque down the seat post to clamp it in my work stand. Tonight I got the major parts set up:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PxC-4xbltok/U__aXvC_5DI/AAAAAAAAOfE/vMybSe4Dju8/s912/IMG_1132.JPG)
Enough on there to set my bar height and cut the steerer tube, but it was already getting late at this point. I didn't want to break out the miter box with the kids sleeping above me. Save that for Friday, which also gives me time to really, really make sure I'm good with this position (or shorter). My understanding with carbon steerers is that the stem should clamp around the expansion plug, so you can't just stack spacers above the stem to have future steerer tube length like you can with metal steerer tubes. Someone please tell me if I'm wrong here.
I was happy to see that the frame had adequate clearance for my 2.4" Vee Mission 4 tire on a 35mm wide rim at the rear. I knew the fork could clear my Knard, but the drawing wasn't as clear for the rear clearance.
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There is a recommended height limit for spacers on a carbon steerer...40mm?
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I asked Iplay about this, and they didn't give me a real answer. Whiskey and some other carbon fork makers recommend 50mm as a max.
This is kind of misleading, because if you couple this with a riser bar and a riser stem, you're still introducing a greater bending moment onto the steerer tube.
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Just went and looked at Niner and their 'rules'
Do not exceed 40mm spacer stack height.
Do not place spacers above the stem. The stem must clamp the area
reinforced by the compression adjustment plug installed in step 5.1
Do not use tall crown races or place spacers under the crown race to
adjust head angle.
Do not grease the carbon steerer tube.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/NinerDocs/NIN_OWNERS_UNIVERS.pdf
I think the manufactures are limiting it to 40 or 50 with the thought of stem and bar on their putting a load....and to cover their butts.
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Yeah, this is kind of a worry for me for a carbon steerer tube. With 10mm more spacers than shown in the above photo, I was able to get my bars at seat height. Since the IP-106's head tube is about as long as it gets, it's hard for us taller guys to get the bars up and use a carbon steerer.
I start thinking about steerer tube spacers limits, plus stem rise, stem length (probably more significant for loading than spacer amount, although no one talks about it), and bar rise, and it makes me a little nervous about how much factor of safety was built into these forks.
I'll give this fork a try, but it may end up being too low for me. The selection of long, rigid forks with tapered, metal steerers is very limited. Carver sells one, but only with a QR15 axle, which my Shimano hubs won't fit.
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I was able to finish the build up on Friday night. I started by cutting the steerer tube down:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AVIDxQjD-fg/VAG-MNRgQzI/AAAAAAAAOgc/zFWxlBS2RdE/s912/IMG_1137.JPG)
and then again as it was still just a bit too long...
I intended to use my somewhat new hyrdo brakes on this build, but the frame I got turned out to have full internal routing, not external brakes as it was earlier spec'd for. That means I would have to cut my hoses, etc, which was too much hassle late on Friday night. I put my old but trusty Shimano mechanicals on there instead. They work fine.
Here's my initial build:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I8_vRzzEm3I/VAG-M_-PxQI/AAAAAAAAOgk/kqLuU_Cy-J0/s912/IMG_1138.JPG)
I took it up and down the street and around my tiny (1/3 mile) test track, and determined that the bar is too high and too close. The next morning I simply flipped the stem, and that felt a lot better:
This:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wZh5yz8cEMI/VAG-PRY_AoI/AAAAAAAAOg8/dCRUuExGW28/s912/IMG_2134.JPG)
went to this:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0JPW_DvdJHo/VAPGLgHioGI/AAAAAAAAOj0/UcFxX9-fbJQ/s912/IP106%2520build%25201.JPG)
Unfortunately (for test riding purposes), Saturday was filled with family activities, and my planned ride on Sunday morning got rained out. I hope to get out this afternoon if the clear weather holds.
One thing I did notice on my brief test ride is that this frame didn't seem to have the smooth, responsive feeling of my Sette frame. Odd, because the frame tubes of the IP-106 look so much more manipulated to give a smooth ride. I'll have to see if this impression holds.
I intended to spend part of the rainy afternoon yesterday patching up slow leaks in my tubes, only to find my glue was dry in every patch kit. The finally pushed me to try my Stans tubeless kit. I had to use the compressor to get the Knard to seat on the Blunt rim, but after adding additional sealant yesterday, it surprisingly seems to be holding air this morning.
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Looks good! :D Have you got an overall built weight?
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No idea on the weight. I used to have a cheap fish scale, but it died a few months back. It's not as light as you would think, due to the heavy Knard up front, and the somewhat heavy duty wheels.
Looks good! :D Have you got an overall built weight?
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So I was able to get out after dinner for a quick ride tonight. The trails were nice and dry, just one puddle on the whole lap.
I immediately noticed a handling difference compared to my old Razzo. Between the slightly shorter chainstays (5mm shorter) and the shorter front center (~20mm shorter), it seems I was able to lift up the front wheel quite a bit more easily. Perhaps this was also due to the lighter carbon fork. Steering was pretty sharp as well.
On the downside, it still didn't feel as smooth as the Razzo, and there's a pedal induced creak I need to track down. Also, I'm not sure on the fit, I'll have to see how my back does with a longer ride.
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So I've been putting some more miles on the IP-106, riding among other places at Caesar's Creek:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ow4NDI7aN5c/VCYTLiNxdDI/AAAAAAAAOyc/vDEySMbt9jA/s912/IMG_2254.JPG)
Two routes to choose:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-A6QTTkkolow/VCYTOPwax4I/AAAAAAAAOy0/sl4RO-BhC1Y/s912/IMG_2257.JPG)
Of course, I choose the "Most Difficult" path... Caesar's Creek is an old enough trail system that it still has a few fall line sections:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pVodFaFgfh4/VCYTPDan0QI/AAAAAAAAOy8/S3wGgl7piQg/s912/IMG_2258.JPG)
I've also hit my local trail at Alum Creek:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IMrcurlire8/VCYTTLSFpgI/AAAAAAAAOzc/WDBkp6zr9UE/s912/IP106%2520Alum%25202.JPG)
at Alum, I was riding the IP back to back with my other carbon frame, a Sette Razzo:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PptGLo9jR3E/VCYTU3EiP-I/AAAAAAAAOzs/PXmOcAD2apc/s912/Sette%2520Razzo%2520Alum.JPG)
Finally, I still find the IP a little more flickable than the Razzo, but the Razzo is smoother. I like the Razzo a bit better, overall.
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Nice bike! Beautiful place to ride.
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It's no riding mecca, but it's awfully nice here in the fall.