Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: abedfo on December 19, 2022, 10:57:53 AM
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Stumbled across a Fasterway "O2" frameset on ebay (2nd hand) and was curious what the consensus these days was on replicas. Has anyone any info on Fasterway?
Im curious as to what these frames are, are they knockoffs or do these guys actually make the frames for the legit company's.
Obviously usual chinarello caveats apply.
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I'm currently lusting over an Ostro copy, so I won't say don't do it...but personally, I wouldn't buy a second hand fake. Maybe if it was from one of y'all who is trustworthy and has some insight on the quality and handling of the frame, but nah.
They're totally not real. Fasterway seems to specialize in copies.
Though they do have one that looks to be an original/open mold direct mount rim design that looks sweeet 8)
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I’ve seen them too. They look really nice but there are some things that seem off. Like the D-shaped steerer tube, but no decent expander plug? Also no detailed pictures or reviews as of yet..
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IMO there are enough nice originals to not do this. It sucks because the Cervelo R5 is my dream bike. But I would never buy a replica frame
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if you were wondering what the fasterway from china looks like, here it is:
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if you were wondering what the fasterway from china looks like, here it is:
Is it the same mould? I remember chris miller mentioning that some chinese company that does direct to consumer had the factor moulds and would start selling them this year, people were saying ICAN tho.
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Is it the same mould? I remember chris miller mentioning that some chinese company that does direct to consumer had the factor moulds and would start selling them this year, people were saying ICAN tho.
This winter I rode with a guy with a legit Ostro and and his friend had a fasterway version and they are really similar externally however the fake one is about 400g heavier.
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from what I understand, there are some different scenarios...
a. open mould frames, often different companies operating within the same factory and sharing moulds
b. replica moulds, reverse engineering to get to a frame design but with slight differences
c. counterfeit moulds, chinese factory manufactures for western brand, normally it's in the contract they should destroy the mould after the lifespan but it ends up continuing to be used - either the same factory or a friend/sister chinese company
If I remember correctly, it's Elves that produces (some?) Cervelo frames, I think that on some Francis Cade video he inspected the frame and it had some cervelo inner parts which indicated 'same component/same factory' situation. Or like this Ican/Factor situation below
I work in the home appliance industry and we go through similar stuff with our chinese suppliers/factories.
The thing that most people get wrong is that the manufacturing process and quality verification are much more important than the mould
if the chinese company just uses the same mould but has a shit process, then it's going to be a good looking frame but shit riding, and unreliable
that's not to piss on all replica frames, just that it's not that simple.. I honestly think that there are some companies that make replica's and could have a good process.. just that personally I prefer not to endorse and go with an open mould, for instance
Is it the same mould? I remember chris miller mentioning that some chinese company that does direct to consumer had the factor moulds and would start selling them this year, people were saying ICAN tho.
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My 5 cents. Aero road bikes now look very similar, with maybe Trekk as an exception. Look at Spec, Cannondale, Scott, BMC, their aero all rounder road bikes look alike.
Henceforth, I'd say buy a velobuild type frame, like the 177. It's heavily inspired by current trends, but it doesnt parade as a knock off. It's illegal in most places afaik to buy fake goods, but you can't be blamed for buying proven engineering. Customize your frame however you want, but don't slap a Specialized logo on it.
I wouldn't buy a frame that is marketed as fake specialized or a fake pinarello, because it's illegal, and maybe more importantly, you shouldn't trust thieves & crooks, so why risk your life riding something crooked people sold you?
I also believe it is very clear that the fake frames are NOT the same as the real deal, they dont just happen to be extra units, all else equal, from the same production line. While that might happen sometimes, most of the time it's going to be different QC, materials, moulds, factories, and so on.
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Ok so, I rode on bike about 1k kilometers (1150km). I dissasembly it 2 times. I didnt noticed cracking carbon of any parts inside or breaking (frame, handlebar, seatpost). BUT It has some paint scratches looks like carbon crack (seat post, seat tube). I check it many times and till now nothing change (good for me) - scratch are on outside side on paint.
The bike is very stiff, i dont feel that frame is flexible. Every parts from my previous bicycle fit well (crank, derailleurs, wheels). The frame is very difficult to mount due to internal cables and hydraulic brakes so have to be patient, have good tools and some skills, but i think its normal - in every type of internal routig frame (not only chinese version)
I bought frame from ali, size 56cm with handlebar 100x400 and glossy white paint, from seller that has shop from 2014 (7 years) and selling frames, handlebars and carbon parts. I bought it for about 750EUR with shipping.
I dont know how it works but when I add frame to basket it shows me 750EUR, but when I would like to pay for it the price changed to 600EUR. Maybe its VAT or some tax returned by law in EU. Next I added xdb shipping costs for EU for 150EUR, so overall 750EUR for frame back to my door.
Shipping lasted 3 weeks.
The package was very well protecded by foil, tape and sponge? in medium box.
Paint job is quite good. I rate it on 3 or 4 on 6 posiible (1-reprehensible, 6 perfect). The main varnish is very good and durable. But has some mistakes visible under the light, some black parts ale slightly smeared on white (thru axle mount), seat tube socket has too much paint (and its not harvested enough) and socket for screw seat tube is smeared on white too. Letters and logos are sharp and centered but I think they are not secured enough by scratching - should be additional transparent protective varnish. Seat tube socket doesnt have cover, so I had to doit by myself.
Frame has mounted perfect bottom bracket, the fork and back part of bike (rear triangle?) Its fits perfect with wheels and crankset. They are on position and central.
Steerer tube and seatpost tube has thick walls, maybe not perfect but strong enough. Seat tube looks like very durable and i think there is one layer with fiber glass (between are some spaces). Seat post has some paint crack looking strange, but when i checked it, it looks like its only paint crack.
With fork I get 2 aluminium overlapping spacers, 1 plastic spacers, 1 down pad with "ceramicspeed" logo (i dont know how its called) and 1 up pad, 3 aluminium upper rudder pads for compression, 2 headset bearings (up and down).
With seatpost I get additional clip for carbon rail of saddle
Handlebar is very good looking, like one piece made with stem, good finishing, with internal mount wire. There is garmin mount too with 2 bolts. Internal cables looks beautifull but mounting it is horrible...
There is a little disadvantage with stem. Mounting area is a little wider than should be, so when I put the handlebar on steerer tube, I had to remove some clearence with the stem bolts (i.e. should be 31.8mm and it is 31.9mm) and then remove clearence on head tube.
I sending some pictures below.
I have no time to respond for every email, im so sorry for that.
But sending pictures is simple so if U want more pictures, send me Ur email, maybe I try send u more :)
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Thanks for such a detailed review! What’s the tire clearance like? It looks pretty tight in the rear there.
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I have 28mm schwalbe one tubeless and this is max. There is about 2-4mm clearance, depends of pressure.
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Very nice, thank you for the feedback.
I can't see on your pics the paint cracks, so i guess that's good.
Having looked at Aliexpress recently, some sellers explain the VAT shenanigans to Europe. If i got it right, the price you see when shopping includes VAT by law, but when you checkout you dont pay it (I think the deal is that above a certain amount (i think 100 or 150 EUR), the VAT isn't forcibly charged). Then shipping is shipping.
How does the bike compare to your previous bike, how does it ride, are you happy?
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is there a replica of the Cervelo r5? would love to build a second bike with more traditional look, everyone is doing short seatstays these days.
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is there a replica of the Cervelo r5? would love to build a second bike with more traditional look, everyone is doing short seatstays these days.
Yes, you can type cervelo r5 frame in aliexpress and find such frames right away (1st i found was from the store "high quality carbon frameset store". Not exactly a confidence inspiring name). Then as you navigate among replicas (the SL7 being omnipresent), you'll see various postings or model options within a posting labelled only as "r5", which is what you're after. My issue is all these sellers seem to have very limited track record, if any at all.
Btw, the Tan Tan FM639 looks pretty similar without being a fake, doesnt it?
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Yes, you can type cervelo r5 frame in aliexpress and find such frames right away (1st i found was from the store "high quality carbon frameset store". Not exactly a confidence inspiring name). Then as you navigate among replicas (the SL7 being omnipresent), you'll see various postings or model options within a posting labelled only as "r5", which is what you're after. My issue is all these sellers seem to have very limited track record, if any at all.
Btw, the Tan Tan FM639 looks pretty similar without being a fake, doesnt it?
I would never buy a direct knockoff, was thinking more of a close copy like the Tantan, it looks brilliant never seen posted on the forum before. Thanks
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Jarkacz, which seller from Ali? Rocking cycling store/Taiwanese bike store? They are related to Yohobike.com and I have been looking at them for a while now. For some reasons, they seem reliable. However, I can't really find proper reviews. Also I am sure they sell a lot of them. They seem to be the most reliable replicas I could find.
I currently ride a vbr 218 that I like, but I am looking at building a climbing bike.
Anyone has found detailed reviews from that seller?
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Jarkacz, which seller from Ali? Rocking cycling store/Taiwanese bike store? They are related to Yohobike.com and I have been looking at them for a while now. For some reasons, they seem reliable. However, I can't really find proper reviews. Also I am sure they sell a lot of them. They seem to be the most reliable replicas I could find.
I currently ride a vbr 218 that I like, but I am looking at building a climbing bike.
Anyone has found detailed reviews from that seller?
I am riding a Emmonda from Yohoo bikes see my report here:
http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,4029.msg42719.html#msg42719
BR Chris
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Jarkacz, which seller from Ali? Rocking cycling store/Taiwanese bike store? They are related to Yohobike.com and I have been looking at them for a while now. For some reasons, they seem reliable. However, I can't really find proper reviews. Also I am sure they sell a lot of them. They seem to be the most reliable replicas I could find.
I currently ride a vbr 218 that I like, but I am looking at building a climbing bike.
Anyone has found detailed reviews from that seller?
If you want a climbing bike, i'll offer my 5 cents. I've been focusing on bikes that can take 32C (call me old, no worries). And that narrows the options a LOT.
Brand: Tideace / Haideli (HDL) / SP cycle / Disai
Model: 053D
Frame should be under 1kg in M, i think they do EPS / latex moulding which would 1. explain the weight and 2. make it comparatively "safer" (less chance of mistakes in the layup), 3. easier to route cables; they sometimes claim to be using T1000 (now whether that's true or not, idk, or maybe they use 10g of it and the rest is T800), and there are reviews that say good things about it (The Bespoke Cyclist on YT + at least 1 bike build video of it), and i could only find positive feedback about these brands.
Now my issue is that i'd like a frame to have a bit more of a sexy aspect to it.
Vanity...
But if i were back solving for weight, i'd probably get that one.
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Jarkacz, which seller from Ali? Rocking cycling store/Taiwanese bike store? They are related to Yohobike.com and I have been looking at them for a while now. For some reasons, they seem reliable. However, I can't really find proper reviews. Also I am sure they sell a lot of them. They seem to be the most reliable replicas I could find.
Anyone has found detailed reviews from that seller?
This comes from "Taiwan Carbon Factory Store"
http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3391.0.html
Yohobike had the name Kiss Kiss at that point i bought mine. They seem to be just as good. Same thing with "High quality carbon frame store"
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Definitely don't buy a replica like that. It's illegal.
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Definitely don't buy a replica like that. It's illegal.
It depends on what country you live in.
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If not illegal, it's tacky.
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If not illegal, it's tacky.
I think the regular bike prices have been tacky. You will soon have to be a millionare to buy a road bike.
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I think the regular bike prices have been tacky. You will soon have to be a millionare to buy a road bike.
entry bikes going for 4/5K, considering stocks are up I think prices will get slashed soon.
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entry bikes going for 4/5K, considering stocks are up I think prices will get slashed soon.
I built my F12 replica with 454 nsw replica wheels, hydraulic disc ultegra di2 and assioma duo pedals for around 4200 USD.
An original bike would be like 4K with mechanic 105 and alloy wheels instead for the same price.
My CX was built for 1500 USD, same bike is like 4K today. It was very easy to justify the replica in my case for sure.
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I bought a Workswell R-066 frame 6-7 years ago that was a copy of the R5. I didn't buy it for that reason, I bought it because the geometry looked right for me. It's a S or a 51 size frame. It's been great and I just rode it yesterday. Ultegra DI2 groupset and Zipp 404 firecrest wheels. It's quick little bike...and still naked.
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Ok so, I rode on bike about 1k kilometers (1150km). I dissasembly it 2 times. I didnt noticed cracking carbon of any parts inside or breaking (frame, handlebar, seatpost). BUT It has some paint scratches looks like carbon crack (seat post, seat tube). I check it many times and till now nothing change (good for me) - scratch are on outside side on paint.
The bike is very stiff, i dont feel that frame is flexible. Every parts from my previous bicycle fit well (crank, derailleurs, wheels). The frame is very difficult to mount due to internal cables and hydraulic brakes so have to be patient, have good tools and some skills, but i think its normal - in every type of internal routig frame (not only chinese version)
I bought frame from ali, size 56cm with handlebar 100x400 and glossy white paint, from seller that has shop from 2014 (7 years) and selling frames, handlebars and carbon parts. I bought it for about 750EUR with shipping.
I dont know how it works but when I add frame to basket it shows me 750EUR, but when I would like to pay for it the price changed to 600EUR. Maybe its VAT or some tax returned by law in EU. Next I added xdb shipping costs for EU for 150EUR, so overall 750EUR for frame back to my door.
Shipping lasted 3 weeks.
The package was very well protecded by foil, tape and sponge? in medium box.
Paint job is quite good. I rate it on 3 or 4 on 6 posiible (1-reprehensible, 6 perfect). The main varnish is very good and durable. But has some mistakes visible under the light, some black parts ale slightly smeared on white (thru axle mount), seat tube socket has too much paint (and its not harvested enough) and socket for screw seat tube is smeared on white too. Letters and logos are sharp and centered but I think they are not secured enough by scratching - should be additional transparent protective varnish. Seat tube socket doesnt have cover, so I had to doit by myself.
Frame has mounted perfect bottom bracket, the fork and back part of bike (rear triangle?) Its fits perfect with wheels and crankset. They are on position and central.
Steerer tube and seatpost tube has thick walls, maybe not perfect but strong enough. Seat tube looks like very durable and i think there is one layer with fiber glass (between are some spaces). Seat post has some paint crack looking strange, but when i checked it, it looks like its only paint crack.
With fork I get 2 aluminium overlapping spacers, 1 plastic spacers, 1 down pad with "ceramicspeed" logo (i dont know how its called) and 1 up pad, 3 aluminium upper rudder pads for compression, 2 headset bearings (up and down).
With seatpost I get additional clip for carbon rail of saddle
Handlebar is very good looking, like one piece made with stem, good finishing, with internal mount wire. There is garmin mount too with 2 bolts. Internal cables looks beautifull but mounting it is horrible...
There is a little disadvantage with stem. Mounting area is a little wider than should be, so when I put the handlebar on steerer tube, I had to remove some clearence with the stem bolts (i.e. should be 31.8mm and it is 31.9mm) and then remove clearence on head tube.
I sending some pictures below.
I have no time to respond for every email, im so sorry for that.
But sending pictures is simple so if U want more pictures, send me Ur email, maybe I try send u more :)
Thanks for the photos. I am looking at picking one up, with no paint, only clearcoat. Do you think I could fit 32mm tires here? I only ride in dry roads, no mud.
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I think the regular bike prices have been tacky. You will soon have to be a millionare to buy a road bike.
Not really, especially if you buy used. Plus with all the affordable "original" frames there's no point in buying a fake frame, unless you want to look like you spent more money than you could afford which seems to be the case with you.
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Not really, especially if you buy used. Plus with all the affordable "original" frames there's no point in buying a fake frame, unless you want to look like you spent more money than you could afford which seems to be the case with you.
i agree with you. I just got a fake factor ostro too. I have told my cycling group that my new bike: a prisma studio ostro frameset is coming, and i will not be riding fake bikes anymore, as i will be selling off my fake bianchi oltre xr4 disc.
I have also bought the ceramicspeed bottom bracket (in blue）to ensure no one can call out my fake bike.
and you may ask why am I doing this? its simply because i cannot afford a real ostro.
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I built fake Factor O2 back in November 2020 to replace my heavy Merida Reacto 400.
The components I using for this build are SRAM Force 22, a Chinese handlebar, a Chinese lightweight wheelset, Schwalbe Pro One TLE 25mm, Fabric knurl bar tape, and Time Xpresso 2 pedal.
The total build-up is around ~ 6.8kg.
I'm not an expert to tell exactly how the ride feels on this bike. But what I can say it's night and day difference compared to Reacto 400.
The fake O2 frame feels so lively during the ride, stiff and fast to pick up the speed and yet convenient to use for a long ride. As for records, the longest distance I'm riding with this fake O2 is 220km, and countless 120km and above ride sessions.
To tell about the frame quality. Yes, it's may not the same as an original O2 but for a Chinese frame, it's high in quality compared to cheap chiner frames such as Twitter, Alcott, and Trifox. I've never experienced a creaking sound in BB area, slip seat post, and frame crack here and there.
I love this bike and will use it for a long time for sure.
(https://i.ibb.co/NF9HW0R/Faketor-O2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4F854bk)
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I built fake Factor O2 back in November 2020 to replace my heavy Merida Reacto 400.
Nice build! ;)
I am also interested in those replica frames. I tend to see them as a taboo somehow, but on the other hand they often look like good quality.
Remember where you bought the frame?
Would love to see more insights and experiences regarding those replicas.
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I built fake Factor O2 back in November 2020 to replace my heavy Merida Reacto 400.
The components I using for this build are SRAM Force 22, a Chinese handlebar, a Chinese lightweight wheelset, Schwalbe Pro One TLE 25mm, Fabric knurl bar tape, and Time Xpresso 2 pedal.
The total build-up is around ~ 6.8kg.
I'm not an expert to tell exactly how the ride feels on this bike. But what I can say it's night and day difference compared to Reacto 400.
The fake O2 frame feels so lively during the ride, stiff and fast to pick up the speed and yet convenient to use for a long ride. As for records, the longest distance I'm riding with this fake O2 is 220km, and countless 120km and above ride sessions.
To tell about the frame quality. Yes, it's may not the same as an original O2 but for a Chinese frame, it's high in quality compared to cheap chiner frames such as Twitter, Alcott, and Trifox. I've never experienced a creaking sound in BB area, slip seat post, and frame crack here and there.
I love this bike and will use it for a long time for sure.
(https://i.ibb.co/NF9HW0R/Faketor-O2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4F854bk)
I've been riding a custom painted disc version of this frame, also since 2020. Did several bike trips with it including some speedy descents in the Swiss alps. Mileage is around 15.000km until now, zero complaints, the frameset is solid!
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I bought it from Aliexpress. You can just type fasterway o2. The quality much much better than Fasterway Ostro. I think the seller account is taiwanbikestore or frame if not mistaken.
Nice build! ;)
I am also interested in those replica frames. I tend to see them as a taboo somehow, but on the other hand they often look like good quality.
Remember where you bought the frame?
Would love to see more insights and experiences regarding those replicas.
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I bought it from Aliexpress. You can just type fasterway o2. The quality much much better than Fasterway Ostro. I think the seller account is taiwanbikestore or frame if not mistaken.
I think the shop does not exist anymore, could not find it, also obmbicycle looks closed
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I bought it from Aliexpress. You can just type fasterway o2. The quality much much better than Fasterway Ostro. I think the seller account is taiwanbikestore or frame if not mistaken.
I searched "fasterway o2" on Ali Express, and got a bunch of penis pumps and vibrators in my results :o
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I can still find these from a number of sellers on Aliexpress, “Taiwan Factory Bike Parts” being one of them. This seller seems to specialise in counterfeits. They also sell Colnagos, Trek Madones, Bianchi Oltres and a Scott Addict copy which is slightly different from the original, as far as I can see.
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I searched "fasterway o2" on Ali Express, and got a bunch of penis pumps and vibrators in my results :o
This is the store:
https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0l50q4
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Taiwan factory store is no more on AliExpress from what I can see. But they still online here:
https://www.allstarobm.com/
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Sick looking bike sir
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Taiwan factory store is no more on AliExpress from what I can see. But they still online here:
https://www.allstarobm.com/
Oh damn!
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Taiwan factory store is no more on AliExpress from what I can see. But they still online here:
https://www.allstarobm.com/
Weird website. No address or any actual hint as to what name the company is registered under, right? Also, I’m pretty sure those pics from a B2B show floor in Germany are the same as on the Yishun website. Either they are in some way connected to them or they just straight up snatched them from their site. Also, the pricing seems just a little bit too good to be true? Like I said, I can still find this store on Aliexpress. An Ostro copy sells for barely more than 500EUR painted which is crazy cheap. Too good to be true?
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Try and report back to us? :D
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Weird website. No address or any actual hint as to what name the company is registered under, right? Also, I’m pretty sure those pics from a B2B show floor in Germany are the same as on the Yishun website. Either they are in some way connected to them or they just straight up snatched them from their site. Also, the pricing seems just a little bit too good to be true? Like I said, I can still find this store on Aliexpress. An Ostro copy sells for barely more than 500EUR painted which is crazy cheap. Too good to be true?
We site address was sent to me by Taiwan factory story when they where still on alix
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Oh damn!
oh damn they cloned tyrone!
(https://images.51microshop.com/1050/product/detail/20231103/1699000264504_0.jpg)
(https://images.51microshop.com/1050/product/20231103/SL8_TARMAC_Super_Light_Carbon_Road_Frame_T1100_Racing_Disc_Bike_Disk_Bicycle_Frameset__1699000304909_4.jpg)
(https://images.51microshop.com/1050/product/20231103/SL8_TARMAC_Super_Light_Carbon_Road_Frame_T1100_Racing_Disc_Bike_Disk_Bicycle_Frameset__1699000304909_3.jpg)
https://images.51microshop.com/1050/product/20231103/SL8_TARMAC_Super_Light_Carbon_Road_Frame_T1100_Racing_Disc_Bike_Disk_Bicycle_Frameset__1699000304909_2.jpg (https://images.51microshop.com/1050/product/20231103/SL8_TARMAC_Super_Light_Carbon_Road_Frame_T1100_Racing_Disc_Bike_Disk_Bicycle_Frameset__1699000304909_2.jpg)
https://images.51microshop.com/1050/product/20231103/SL8_TARMAC_Super_Light_Carbon_Road_Frame_T1100_Racing_Disc_Bike_Disk_Bicycle_Frameset__1699000304909_1.jpg (https://images.51microshop.com/1050/product/20231103/SL8_TARMAC_Super_Light_Carbon_Road_Frame_T1100_Racing_Disc_Bike_Disk_Bicycle_Frameset__1699000304909_1.jpg)
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I'm tempted to try the Madone knock-off (https://www.allstarobm.com/trek-madone-slr-9-road-disc-bicycle-frame-cycling-disk-frameset-p4683521.html). The only problem is that the only shop I know of in town that has the DT-5.2 brake mount facing tool is the official Trek store. If the frame arrives needing facing, which I would estimate the chances at 100%, I would be completely SOL.
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I have a Colnago Concept disc replica from Taobao, 2000 miles and it is still completely fine. I even crashed once and went for checking for the frame in my LBS and they said there is no problem and not accepting any payment from me because there's simply no issue found.
Funny thing is I got a friend who has a real Colnago Concept, we switched and tested our ride and we can't feel any major difference between the real and the replica, only feel a bit more sluggish when accelerating in the replica because it is around 500g heavier.
The paintjob is 8/10, it is definitely not perfect, place the real thing right next to it you can tell there's some difference, but if you don't compare it like this or know where to look I am pretty sure 95% people can't see the difference. There will be some paint scratches but it won't be spotted so easily.
The frame + integrated carbon handlebar is like 500 USD, both are replica, one thing to note is that the accessories they provide are kind of trash and expect to get yourself some titanium bolts for replacements, but other than that I can safe to say I will buy replica again if I want a new bike because the real thing is like 3000 USD+ and I simply don't find it worth the price.
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Just wanted to update on my "FaCtOr OsTrO VaM" build, weighed in at 6.96 after pedals, cages and comp mount.
(https://i.ibb.co/L62zN1K/Whats-App-Image-2023-12-26-at-11-55-12-2b7262cf.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pZ9vhdq)
(https://i.ibb.co/0cV1Lrs/Whats-App-Image-2023-12-26-at-11-55-13-a0c602de.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y3TJSh0)
(https://i.ibb.co/GVrdWDH/Whats-App-Image-2023-12-26-at-11-55-11-32663efb.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fCTXkWD)
(https://i.ibb.co/WPRHd2t/Whats-App-Image-2023-12-26-at-11-55-11-a988de6f.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vQMcrjY)
(https://i.ibb.co/GFgTCbH/Whats-App-Image-2023-12-26-at-12-13-33-b9d317e3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7ngkzm)
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I'm kinda on the fence about riding a bare copy frame, but riding around on a fake one with the actual brand name is mega cringe.
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I'm kinda on the fence about riding a bare copy frame, but riding around on a fake one with the actual brand name is mega cringe.
This thread has become a thread showing counterfeits. I personally wouldn’t ride one and am generally opposed to them existing. Given the price points, I want the factory and engineers using their limited resources on making a good frame, not a copy of another frame. I also want more people focused on making great products.
But I also appreciate the clarity around the motivations of people who are buying these. Getting a good looking bike that doesn't break the bank is getting harder and harder, and if you don’t worry about the weight or actual aero performance, some of these copies look really good from 10ft. I cant argue with the pics.
That said, I have seen a fake Pinarello Dogma trying to be passed off as the real thing on a resale site; which was only clear after a friend wasted his time going to see it and noticed some suspicious discrepancies. That’s seriously uncool.
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I think a lot of people simply think replica / knockoff = unsafe to ride, but in reality, it is about knowing which vendor to trust as some of the factories are producing good quality replica. Some of the big brands out there have a very small R&D department for frame design, maybe not even have one, they just have a huge marketing department. The blueprint of the frames they are selling are also provided by the manufacturer in China, perhaps with a little adjustments heres and theres.
The idea of associating well-known brands with quality and great design is not always accurate, I think people need to start understanding this.
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That said, I have seen a fake Pinarello Dogma trying to be passed off as the real thing on a resale site; which was only clear after a friend wasted his time going to see it and noticed some suspicious discrepancies. That’s seriously uncool.
I second that. I own and ride a replica (VB R218). Pinarello certainly hasn’t lost a customer in me as I’m not even remotely in the market for their price range of bikes. But I did shy away from the used market partly because of this. Lots of counterfeits out there and people try to sell them off as legit ones. That’s really not cool. And I’d never put Pinarello decals on my replica nor would I tell anyone it’s real.
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The nero show hosted a very interesting discussion about the replica frames with Joe from Panda Podium.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfQZub-Tm7I
Long story short, I wouldn't descend an Alps col full speed like I love, with a replica 8)
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From what I can tell the quality of my VBR 218 is no worse than a usual beginner to middle-class carbon frame from a western brand. As we know a lot of western brands just sell chinese frames with their branding and why should a replica frame be worse than other open molds? The replica has the advantage of compatiblity with a lot of accessories or spare parts from the original though. Geometry and aero will often be better too.
So it depends: If you want a superbike, you'll have to pay for the original and there is a bigger difference. But if you just want some easy middle-class well performing bike, the replica can do that just fine.
I wouldn't put stickers on it too, for sure.
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From what I can tell the quality of my VBR 218 is no worse than a usual beginner to middle-class carbon frame from a western brand. As we know a lot of western brands just sell chinese frames with their branding and why should a replica frame be worse than other open molds? The replica has the advantage of compatiblity with a lot of accessories or spare parts from the original though. Geometry and aero will often be better too.
So it depends: If you want a superbike, you'll have to pay for the original and there is a bigger difference. But if you just want some easy middle-class well performing bike, the replica can do that just fine.
I wouldn't put stickers on it too, for sure.
Did you watch the video from 24:17 ?
Most replica look the same as the real thing, but just from afar, at best they are QA rejected B or C quality bikes, or at worst just gross copies.
People selling them do not put their skin in the game like the brands that try to build their reputation and trust.
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Did you watch the video from 24:17 ?
Most replica look the same as the real thing, but just from afar, at best they are QA rejected B or C quality bikes, or at worst just gross copies.
People selling them do not put their skin in the game like the brands that try to build their reputation and trust.
As with all things carbon from D2C sellers in China, I’d argue it depends on who you’re buying from. It just so happens that with replicas, there might be more shady sellers with questionable QC as with „regular open molds“. Also, the cheaper you go the higher the risk. Usually anyways. But other than that I don’t think replicas do inherently have to be worse than any other piece of carbon you can buy directly from China.
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As with all things carbon from D2C sellers in China, I’d argue it depends on who you’re buying from. It just so happens that with replicas, there might be more shady sellers with questionable QC as with „regular open molds“. Also, the cheaper you go the higher the risk. Usually anyways. But other than that I don’t think replicas do inherently have to be worse than any other piece of carbon you can buy directly from China.
Correct, the so called B grade or QA rejected frames are often accepted and sold by western brands, it is just that these brands will make sure the paintjob is almost flawless so you won't notice the frame is probably not the best in terms of quality. It really is depends on which seller you buy from rather than simply saying all replicas are worse.
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Did you watch the video from 24:17 ?
Most replica look the same as the real thing, but just from afar, at best they are QA rejected B or C quality bikes, or at worst just gross copies.
People selling them do not put their skin in the game like the brands that try to build their reputation and trust.
Yes I did and what Joe said was remarkebly vague and generic. As others said already, bad things can happen with other frames and sources too, it depends from whom you buy and not at least the quality control you have to do for yourself. And I can tell from experience that my VBR-218 is fine. The crank doesn't spin any worse than on an original Dogma and it does 80km/h descents just fine. Just the rear brake mount is not perfect, but workable. Everything, including the appearance of the inside of the tubes, very much in line of what I have seen with regular middle-class CF frames from western brands.
I like Joe from PandaPodium and what he is doing. But he has way too much personal interest in this matter to be your only advisor. Here in Germany buying a replica product is legal for private use. But if you sell something like that, it's a crime. So if Joe would sell replicas, he might get into bigger trouble when returning to Europe. I wouldn't take that risk if I were him. His business is instead making Chinese originals accessible to us, which is great. But for sure he wants us to buy Chinese originals from him and not some replica he can't sell.
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There is a lot of space between a frame being safe to ride and being the quality you see even on second tier frames from the big brands.
It’s worth thinking about the economics of a replica frame selling for $500 painted up as a Factor or Pinarello. I know that it would cost me about $2000-$3000 USD to get a contract manufacturer to make, design a layup for and test a handlebar. I would guess that a frame would be on the order $10k-$12k. It’s probably a breakeven at 50 units at a factory cost of $300 and 30 at less than $200 to make money on a replica frame. To sell 30 frames, you probably need them to pass basic fatigue and safety tests to make sure you can sell even that many. Your don't have much additional budget for development so other than a 3d scan of each frame size to get the shape right and some basic cad work to smooth out the details from the relatively low resolution of that scan, and then work to get the layup good enough to pass the testing. There isn't much budget for additional work. While external tube shape is the majority of the strength of a tube, thickness still matters for stiffness. Because you are using lower quality materials you will end up with thicker tubes, a really stiff bike, and a heavier frame. Its probably been tested enough that it wont break, but will also likely inherit the flaws of the original design because on the outside, it needs to look like the same.
In the case of Factor, they replaced their headset assemblies and changed the design since the Ostro VAM was pulled from competition in 2021 due to sheared steerer tubes. Are you getting the corrected versions of the parts on the Ostro VAM replica? Are the parts even of sufficient quality to avoid the problems that led to the re-design? Can these replica makers get the details of a C shaped steerer right enough to be reliable in the long run? What about the headset and derailleur hanger hardware? Potential headset issues also track with the flaws seen on Cervelo replicas which also use a non-round steerer.
The Pinarello Dogma F suffers from a surprisingly high incidence of cracked seatstays and chainstays as a result of the asymmetric design. The Velobuild version also seems to have this problem. Plus you get bonus headset problems.
An open mold is usually a little more expensive. But, because it's a clean sheet design, they are going to design it in CAD and run the basic FEA stuff and use the results to iterate the design. They have both a good understanding of where / how to adjust the layup and the freedom to change tube shapes to get the performance they are looking for. It looks more generic, but the engineer and designers are incentivized to maximize compatibility with 3rd party components and make the best riding bike they can within their budget because they are looking to secure sales for dozens of bikes with multiple small brands. As a result, these bikes almost always use forks with round steerers and common headset sizes that are easier to design, to make to a high standard, and possible to source from 3rd parties.
A branded version of one of these open mold frames from a brand that does development like a Cinelli or a Guerciotti might ask for layup adjustment, will do some additional QC and swap out the generic hardware for branded FSA or Deda versions. They might stick them in a wind tunnel to help find the right handlebar and wheels to sell with the frame. They might also swap the fork. These bikes win big races at the U23 and junior levels, cost 3x as much, but generally speaking most reviewers will say they fall short of the mid-range bikes from the big brands.
Is the replica safe to ride? Probably, but the commercial motivations are totally different and there is a reason why the open mold is more likely to have the details sorted. So yes, there is an inherent reason why the replica is likely to be a worse bike.
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An open mold is usually a little more expensive. But, because it's a clean sheet design, they are going to design it in CAD and run the basic FEA stuff and use the results to iterate the design. They have both a good understanding of where / how to adjust the layup and the freedom to change tube shapes to get the performance they are looking for.
No they're not? Velobuild for instance sells pretty much all their frames at the exact same price point, open molds, replicas, half replicas like the VB168 and so on. You're implying a lot of things here that again go back to my point exactly: It depends who you're buying from. Sure, the more money is involved, the better the knowledge of the people behind the product and therefore its quality. Hopefully anyway. But saying that open mold designers in general "have a good understanding" of the intricacies of frame design is a generalization you cannot really make IMO. There's probably a lot of sellers out there that did not design the frame or they might not even have produced it. And they might not be transparent about it. So there's more to the story IMO.
I take you point though that making something work that you did not design yourself might pose a few traps that these companies do not necessarily see coming. The question then again is how they handle it. I chose VB for this reason and luckily was not disappointed by their customer service when I needed it. Would I have bought a Pinarello badged frame from whatever seller on Aliexpress? Hell no. Would I buy another VB268? In a heartbeat. But just because it's a really nice riding bike and I like the looks of it. I couldn't care less how it compares to the real thing.
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No they're not? Velobuild for instance sells pretty much all their frames at the exact same price point, open molds, replicas, half replicas like the VB168 and so on. You're implying a lot of things here that again go back to my point exactly: It depends who you're buying from. Sure, the more money is involved, the better the knowledge of the people behind the product and therefore its quality. Hopefully anyway. But saying that open mold designers in general "have a good understanding" of the intricacies of frame design is a generalization you cannot really make IMO. There's probably a lot of sellers out there that did not design the frame or they might not even have produced it. And they might not be transparent about it. So there's more to the story IMO.
I take you point though that making something work that you did not design yourself might pose a few traps that these companies do not necessarily see coming. The question then again is how they handle it. I chose VB for this reason and luckily was not disappointed by their customer service when I needed it. Would I have bought a Pinarello badged frame from whatever seller on Aliexpress? Hell no. Would I buy another VB268? In a heartbeat. But just because it's a really nice riding bike and I like the looks of it. I couldn't care less how it compares to the real thing.
I agree with nearly all of this. The most important thing is that you love riding your bike. I do think Velobuild is an exception in terms of both price and service but my comment around pricing "generally" holds true if you are shopping on Aliexpress vs. sourcing an open mold frame.
I had left sellers out of my comment and focused on the factories and designers because I was trying to focus my rambling answer on why an open mold is inherently different than a replica. Its also complicated. Some sellers are just sellers. Some sellers are affiliated with factories. Some designers are sellers, but not factories. There are certainly factories that are not designers or sellers. Honestly, it hurts my head trying to figure out both what I want to buy and who to buy it from.
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If you're not confident buying from velo/replica/fakes/factory and etc, better buy second hand bike from reputable brand.
As for me, I'm willing to take the risk to buy the replica Factor O2. After countless mileage, I have zero issues, and I love it unconditionally.
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I bought a workswell open mold about 7 yrs ago. Sweet looking bike but I was really unimpressed with the quality and layup. The bike was really flexy on the top tube and the headset was complete garbage.
I've been skiddish many open mold frames since. I've had no major issues with rims from most suppliers (and I beat em hard on my MTBs), but just haven't gone back to trying a frame.
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I bought a workswell open mold about 7 yrs ago. Sweet looking bike but I was really unimpressed with the quality and layup. The bike was really flexy on the top tube and the headset was complete garbage.
I've been skiddish many open mold frames since. I've had no major issues with rims from most suppliers (and I beat em hard on my MTBs), but just haven't gone back to trying a frame.
That's interesting on workswell. I interacted with them a lot trying to buy from them. Ultimately, they're much more expensive than a lot of peers and they claim it's because they use japanese carbon fiber. I'm yet to understand how that makes a measurable difference. Because it's a bit like "it's got electrolytes" to me.
But workswell has a reputation of quality (now whether it's justified or not, idk), so it's interesting that you aren't happy with them.
To be fair, 7 years ago in chinese carbon terms is an eternity ago, but still.
If anyone reads this, workswell seems to have exclusivity arrangements on a country by country basis, and typically will not sell you a single frame. I managed to get quotes for 4-5 frames but it was like pulling teeth. I dont want to buy stuff from a seller that doesnt really want to sell to me.