Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: Eddy-haideli on February 15, 2022, 12:53:31 AM
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Dear All:
Nice day.
New mold 2022 Enduro Mold FS838 now being production.
Now share some picture and information to this forum members.
Really thanks the supporting for all of you.
Any interesting and pre-order of this frame, feel free to contact us at any time.
Eddy@haidelibicycle.com
By the way, Tideace, we also accpet the customized mold production and painting job work.
For this mold some inforamtion listed:
BB：bsa73mm
Headset: 41.8/52
Seatpost: 31.6
Hub: 148x12boost
Rear Shock: 205x65mm
Brake rotor: 203mm
If anyone have the advice or idea for this mold, feel free to reflect to us.
Many thanks.
Eddy
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Looks interesting, from the 831 frame I'd be investigating and putting a lot of time into ensuring the linkage design will not have any play in it.
Being able to fit a coil shock would also make this frame quite appealing, and also ensuring the fork crown will not hit the downtube of the frame.
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Looks great , As above would need a lot of testing for the rear bearing placement and flex also the front of the chain stays look a bit vulnerable hanging down below the bottom bracket , Prone to rock strikes
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Looks very similar to the norco range, which is a cool bike. This is also the first high-pivot/idler frame now?
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It does look really good. And instead of throwing more money at Heideli to fix my am831. I’m tempted to just purchase this, but of course from a different seller. Going to have a look to see who else might be selling them. I’ll post here if I find any.
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It does look really good. And instead of throwing more money at Heideli to fix my am831. I’m tempted to just purchase this, but of course from a different seller. Going to have a look to see who else might be selling them. I’ll post here if I find any.
This is Haideli(Tideace) Privated Mold, so others would not sell this mold, thanks for supporting.
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This is Haideli(Tideace) Privated Mold, so others would not sell this mold, thanks for supporting.
Thanks for saving me time. Looks like I’ll find another frame then.
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They will be popping up at all the usual sellers soon that's the only way it can financially work
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Geometry chart? Leverage curves?
Water bottle mounts like on Norco Range?
Norco uses a different rocker link for each of the frame sizes. Have haideli adressed this in any way?
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Geometry chart? Leverage curves?
Water bottle mounts like on Norco Range?
Norco uses a different rocker link for each of the frame sizes. Have haideli adressed this in any way?
The Range also includes a bash plate on the lower link which seems vitally important:
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My guess is that the leverage will be nearly identical to the Range, but it would be good to get confirmation of this.
The Range also uses bolt-on metal dropouts and the carbon ends at the rear pivot (where seatstay and chainstay meet). The 838 is all carbon in this area. That might not be problematic, but there’s probably a reason why Norco went that route.
Lastly, the Range has a thick OEM rubber protector on the drive side seat stay because the chain sits so close to it. If Tideace uses the same protector now being included with the updated 831, riders may find that doesn’t have enough slap damping and need to replace it with something softer and thicker.
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I had gt sensor 2014(btw, one of the brand frames which didn't have spacers between bearings) and chainstays around lower pivot were scratched as hell when I sold it, so yeah, bash plate is a must around lower pivot
Also it would be interesting to see how haideli implemented the idler and the chain guide around it.
IMO chainguide and that bash plate need to be good and available as spares since it's unique parts to this frames.
The Range also uses bolt-on metal dropouts and the carbon ends at the rear pivot (where seatstay and chainstay meet). The 838 is all carbon in this area. That might not be problematic, but there’s probably a reason why Norco went that route.
Speculations
I'm thinking that's might be so they have the same rear carbon triangle across all sizes while still being able to adjust chainstays length for different frame sizes. Should be easier / cheaper to machine dropouts and rocker link rather than the whole different triangles altogether for each size.
Haideli doesn't bother with different chainstay lengths so hopefully that might not be an issue.
/Speculations
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I had gt sensor 2014(btw, one of the brand frames which didn't have spacers between bearings) and chainstays around lower pivot were scratched as hell when I sold it, so yeah, bash plate is a must around lower pivot
Also it would be interesting to see how haideli implemented the idler and the chain guide around it.
IMO chainguide and that bash plate need to be good and available as spares since it's unique parts to this frames.
I still have my Sensor, I set it up like a Sensor X with a 150mm fork before I got an LTS Force — now my primary bike — and set the Sensor up for my son. It definitely has a lot of pretty heinous gouging on that lower link.
You’ve reminded me that I was never terribly impressed with its pivots.
A replaceable bash guard on the 838 with readily available spares, and readily available spare jockey wheels (preferably compatible with those used on other high pivot bikes incl. the Range), will be crucial. This bike, at least as much as the 831 or 830 lineages, has the potential to be very popular if it’s executed well enough. Being a high pivot bike, though, presents some unique design challenges.
I guess we’ll see in time whether those turn out to be easier or harder to overcome than the pivot and rear triangle issues on the 831.
The first big debate might end up being whether the idler has to have sealed bearings or if bushings are acceptable.
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There seem to be two different designs. Pics 2 - 4 show a link between chain stay and rear axle, the 3D renders and the one from Linkage X3 see the rear wheel directly attached to the chain stay. Pretty sure the latter is the correct version, since that's the same as the Range and the other one gives horrible results in the X3 analysis.
So I used the screenshot from Linkage X3 to look at the leverage ratio. Not quite as progressive as one might want, definitely not coil shock compatible since it's completely flat towards the end. Leaves room to hope that this screenshot is not the final design.
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It actually looks more like the Deviate highlander
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It actually looks more like the Deviate highlander
I’d have to disagree; the Highlander is a solid swingarm with a reverser link whereas this is a four bar linkage with a reverser link as one of the bars, and has a prominent downward extension where the chainstays and reverser link meet (the Highlander’s is more neatly tucked behind the BB). The rear triangle is almost identical to the Range, except for the dropouts.
I do see a little bit of the visual similarity to the Highlander (and noticeable differences from the Range) in the front triangle though, maybe that’s what caught your eye.
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I think you might be right or I might be remembering their older or original design, I could have sworn it wasn't solid.
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There seem to be two different designs. Pics 2 - 4 show a link between chain stay and rear axle, the 3D renders and the one from Linkage X3 see the rear wheel directly attached to the chain stay. Pretty sure the latter is the correct version, since that's the same as the Range and the other one gives horrible results in the X3 analysis.
So I used the screenshot from Linkage X3 to look at the leverage ratio. Not quite as progressive as one might want, definitely not coil shock compatible since it's completely flat towards the end. Leaves room to hope that this screenshot is not the final design.
One thing I noticed in the renders is that there seems to be an extra piece between the reverser link and the shock, a shock extension from what I can tell. It’s highlighted blue-green in the 3D renders. Maybe that alters the kinematics somewhat? Was it included in the Linkage X3 calculations?
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One thing I noticed in the renders is that there seems to be an extra piece between the reverser link and the shock, a shock extension from what I can tell. It’s highlighted blue-green in the 3D renders. Maybe that alters the kinematics somewhat? Was it included in the Linkage X3 calculations?
You're right, it's a common shock yoke. The eye to eye without this part would be about 260mm, the yoke reduces that to 205mm. It has no effect on the kinematics though since there is no additional link (which wouldn't work anyway, it would just collapse in on itself).
The one effect it has is that there is no movement in the rear shock eye, meaning that the rotation is done by the bearing in the yoke instead of the bushing of the shock. So with the trunnion design, both ends run on bearings.
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So I used the screenshot from Linkage X3 to look at the leverage ratio. Not quite as progressive as one might want, definitely not coil shock compatible since it's completely flat towards the end. Leaves room to hope that this screenshot is not the final design.
This is kinda odd, since norco specifically states that new range is something like coil shock specific. Had Haideli screwed up kinematics?
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This is kinda odd, since norco specifically states that new range is something like coil shock specific. Had Haideli screwed up kinematics?
Well, if the screenshot named "test.jpg" is based on the final design, then yes. But as I said, I'm hoping that it isn't.
The leverage ratio could be easily made more progressive simply by moving the shock yoke mount.
Right now, the progression from SAG to full travel is at 6,5%. Changing the position of the shock yoke mount by just 10mm would make it 24%. The Norco Range has about 22%.
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Any News Here? Geo Charts? When the frame should be ready? Price?
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From our experience with the 831 and the solution to the rear end flex as "spend more money", I'll be holding off on this one for the first round or two of production.
I'm curious what the BB interface will look like. In the Range, it's an alloy sleeve inside the carbon to allow for max shock clearance. Same thing here?
Plus I totally had a 2021/22 Range from July to October last year and it actually wasn't my favourite. Having said that, this would be on my radar as a "spouse bike", hah. And regarding previous comments on the need for a bash plate in the lower link area? big time. Even with the Norco bash plate that area looked like shit after my half season of riding.
Eddy, I'd highly recommend at a minimum offering a premium high quality hardware kit for this bike. It's a complicated design with lots of bolts and bearings in different places than many other bikes. Every other "chinertown" bike I've had experience with has had hardware of low to acceptable quality. Usually this works OK for most designs, but the way this is meant to be ridden is going to be very demanding on hardware. Perhaps you could differentiate yourself from other resellers by offering premium hardware and bearing kits. I know I'd be willing to pay a considerable additional fee if I know a bike like this is going to be offered with top quality bearings from a manufacturer I can trust like SKF/FAG and strong, top quality bolts & nuts rather than the normal grade. Especially with the high pivot!
Being able to fit a coil shock would also make this frame quite appealing, and also ensuring the fork crown will not hit the downtube of the frame.
It had better be designed to fit a coil, if the leverage curve looks anything like the bike's its inspired from. Apparently the Aurum HSP and successor Range ride like shit with air shocks. Fox Canada really didn't want to sell me an X2 for my Aurum HSP when I asked!
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Any News Here? Geo Charts? When the frame should be ready? Price?
The sample is being production, then tested, thanks for your interesting.
We would updated, thanks.
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The sample is being production, then tested, thanks for your interesting.
We would updated, thanks.
Any updates on this?
Filip
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if this does hit the market, I want to point out that the Norco frame is slacker, and has different chainstay lengths for different sizes.
This chainstay length is a bit long for large and a bit short for XL. Too long for small/medium frames.
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The Norco version also has some pretty unique replaceable dropouts which this design lacks. I have to assume there was a good reason Norco used them, though I haven’t been able to figure out what it is.
This design needs tight tolerances, particularly at the main pivot and the idler. It wouldn’t take much of a loose tolerance in the right place to turn this into a self destructing wet noodle.
Most significantly, idlers need to be replaced regularly. Will this be standardized on the 838 so third party replacements fit, or would we need to get them from Tideace?
All significant considerations. Personally right now I’m looking at the FM1003 instead because it’s a much simpler design that doesn’t need extensive rider testing before I’d trust it (and has already been on the trails all summer under one member here, with a second build underway).
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The Norco version also has some pretty unique replaceable dropouts which this design lacks. I have to assume there was a good reason Norco used them, though I haven’t been able to figure out what it is.
Very simple answer - they spent a shitload of money developing their frame, using the unique replaceable dropouts allows them to use the same rear triangle tooling to have size specific chainstays in all sizes without making new carbon molds. Unfortunately they come loose fairly frequently for heavy/fast riders and need to be checked every few rides.
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Makes sense. I seem to recall being told there was a reason other than chainstay length customizing for the various sizes, but don’t remember what it was.
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This chainstay length is a bit long for large and a bit short for XL. Too long for small/medium frames.
Why too short for XL? XL is would be my size ;)
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Why too short for XL? XL is would be my size ;)
It's fine, just a bit shorter than the length of the Norco for the XL size. XL is probably the best size. I rather have a shorter chainstay than one that's too long.
That said, I wouldn't exactly recommend buying this frame. Look at this salesman's history on the thread. It sounds like quality control is a serious issue. Customer service is aimed selling fixes instead instead of customer satisfaction.
I mean, someone broke their collarbone due to defects... that's a rough reputation if I've ever seen one.
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I had one of the first XL ranges in North America - I placed my order 1-2 months before the dealer launch/product numbers were available due to a mild mistake from Norco, which they honoured anyway. I then proceeded to spend a whole season at Sun Peaks and elsewhere smashing the shit out of the bike, which I think is a solid test given the mountain's reputation to devour anything with a single crown on it after a couple days of riding. I've said before in this thread, but since we're on the topic again, I'll reiterate it.
My Range, which Norco spent years on, had a couple issues that IMO are relevant to a knockoff/open mold version:
1. mine was subject to a soft recall where not all the bolts had not all the right amount of locktite on them from the factory. There's about twice as many fiddly bolts than most other suspension designs due to the complexity. I think this might not work great for open mold riders who just buy a bike, build it up, and send it - this bike would require a strip back to nothing and a full re-go with grease, anti-seize, and red+blue locktite where appropriate in various parts to work properly/reliably
2. Even after issue 1 was resolved, a handful of bolts kept loosening off after a couple rides. I can only imagine this'll be worse with this version.
3. There's so many small bolts and fiddly parts, I don't trust them to be available long-term from Norco, let alone Tideace/Miracle. This might be a nice bike for a couple seasons, but it might be hard to enjoy for a long period of time (which I guess could be said of anything on this forum?).
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Thanks for the patience of the production,and supporting of our frame and company.
Now FM-FS838 sample have been done, and testing passed.
Attached some raw material picture for reference.
And size M would be the first bulk production.
We would show more details sooner.
The pre-order now is available, any need, feel free to contact us.
Customized color accepted.
Eddy@haidelibicycle.com
Many thanks.
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Good luck to all early adopters of this one and may God have mercy on your souls
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Very short dropper insertion length, link that will hit the ground / rocks, tideace lack of skills to design bearing interface... i will not be the one to give it a try
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Looks cool. 180mm seatpost insert is a little short, but a oneup 150mm will have 5cm exposed. Should be no problem, my 947 has 7cm exposed with a 120mm post.
Would love to see a partially built frame with a shock and idler installed. All the geo numbers look pretty solid.
EDIT: There's a few more renders and the 'test report' on the haidelibikes site: https://www.haidelibikes.com/marketing-products/enduro-29e-suspension-mountain-bicycle-frame.html
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I suppose the max seatpost insertion also changes with the size of the frame? If M would have 180mm, how much would an XL have?
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It *might* not be a total dealbreaker for a lot of people, I can't quite make out the standover height/steatpost height off the ground, but if it's similar to the Range it's based on, the seat collar height is so low, most people will need to run some post exposed anyway - My XL 22 Range had a few CM of seatpost exposed on a 210mm oneup post because it was just that low. Alternately, I've heard some sizes of Range will have seat/rear wheel contact with a fully slammed post anyway.
The total dealbreakers might be other stuff, like how Haideli's last two longer travel full suspension bikes either had shitty beta-test level rear triangles (that totally injured at least one forum user!) and made us either crowdsource a fix or buy replacements, or a slightly better case of requiring steel sleeve to be machined to work nice. This design is substantially more fiddly and complex than those two are. Let's see how this one goes.
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The total dealbreakers might be other stuff, like how Haideli's last two longer travel full suspension bikes either had shitty beta-test level rear triangles (that totally injured at least one forum user!) and made us either crowdsource a fix or buy replacements, or a slightly better case of requiring steel sleeve to be machined to work nice. This design is substantially more fiddly and complex than those two are. Let's see how this one goes.
1. You can also use Alloy ;)
2. maybe it will also work without a sleeve, but I didn't want to risk it. ;)
just my 2 cents
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Haha fair play Stef. I don't want to get bogged down on the material! You could also ride the original 831 without any fix - but there was risk!
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anyone that decided to buy one of these?
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FS-838 Tideace Complete bike shows.
Thanks
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FS-838 Tideace Complete bike shows.
Thanks
Eddy,
Could you please Upload more detailed Pictures? :)
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Okay, show you later
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Dear All:
First we really thanks for the supporting of all the members.
Now we accept the pre-order for the frame New Enduro Mold FS838.
Product Descriptions:
Model NO. FS838
Size 29er*S/M/L/XL (16/17.5/19/21)
Rear Shox CC 205*65mm
Axle Spec. 148*12mm
Seat Post 31.6mm
Headset 1 1/8 to 1 1/2, Tapered
Max tires 29er*2.4''
Disc brake 203mm post mount
Frame travel front 170mm, rear 160mm
Bottom bracket BSA 73mm
The groupbuy order pre-order is USD999/set not included the shipping fee.
Item included frame, thru axle, clamp and chain protection decal.
Please contact us to confirm the size and color you need.
eddy@haidelibicycle.com
Many thanks
Best regards
Haidelibikes
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Eddy,
since the frame looks slightly different from what it was on the first page, updated graphs from linkage(leverage curve, axle path, etc.), geometry tables would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
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Eddy,
since the frame looks slightly different from what it was on the first page, updated graphs from linkage(leverage curve, axle path, etc.), geometry tables would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
Okay, we will update sooner.
Thanks for your interesting.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwVMSo4iZ5U
Tideace FS-838 Testing
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Pre-order accept now.
Thanks
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF7vBJk1ds
Contact us if you interested.
eddy@haidelibicycle.com
Groupbuy price order accept
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Full Bicycle shows
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Can i see other angles of it built up and also can i get a quote on tester?
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has anyone bitten the bullet on this frame?
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What is the max insert seatpost ?
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It is 22cm for the max.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQYrALeLGmk
Testing video
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Dear All:
Now FS838 got 30sets size M in stock.
If you got the interesting and need.
Feel free to contact us.
eddy@haidelibicycle.com
Thanks
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Hw6pMzT-0
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Hey Eddy,
I really Like the frame and how it Looks
Could you give me some Information about it.
Like if the internal Cable routing has housing,
Will it be possible to buy one single frame instead of a group buy,
If yes, how much will it cost and will it be Air shock compatible?
I would really appreciate an answer because I am very Interested in the frame.
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So, did anybody buy this frame and test it?How was the customer support?
A lot of people kept saying the history with this seller is kind of meh.
What were your experiences? ???
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Hey guys,
I didnt buy this frame but it looks Like they learned from their mistakes and made the frame more sturdy (thru axle).
Maybe somebody with more experience can tell if ist a good Desing or still meh.
If somebody got some experience or information on this frame please Post it.
I find it really interresting