Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: Jwzard on June 22, 2022, 02:31:31 PM
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I was almost set on a velobuild frame but the recent threads on their customer service and wheel quality makes me rethink that.
A viable option seems to be ICAN, any of you have experience with their A22 frame?
Also with their customer service.
Thanks
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No experience with them per say. If you want a known commodity, order from Longteng. Haven't heard a bar review from them yet. You can read up on the weight weenie forum
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I was almost set on a velobuild frame but the recent threads on their customer service and wheel quality makes me rethink that.
A viable option seems to be ICAN, any of you have experience with their A22 frame?
Also with their customer service.
Thanks
Clearly, pricier than some of the other options here, but, FWIW, Hambini (love him or hate him) likes it. It was at the top of my list for my next Chinese frame, but I ended up going a different direction altogether.
NSFW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkKFFZluhNA
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Yes I've seen hambinis video, seems promising.
ICAN will be about 50$ more expensive, since they have a EU warehouse and can ship for free without tax.
I added items to cart to check shipping cost and they emailed me back offering a discount if I ordered today, so total 860$ for frame and handlebar.
From velo it will be 810$ with paint and shipping.
So the price difference isn't really that big.
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Bear in mind that - as far as I can see from any English or German language forums - the fully faced-to-exact tolerances frame that Hambini received and said that ICAN were claiming they now did for all customers, rather unsurprisingly in fact doesn't seem to be happening for normal customers. I.E. they appear to have sent him a special. If you are expecting this after his video, don't, as you may be disappointed.
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I believe this is the same mould as the Light Carbon LCR015 (https://www.lightcarbon.com/lightcarbon-new-aero-carbon-road-disc-brake-frame_p14.html) so you could also check with them. I rode a Light Carbon gravel frame for a few years and was very happy with it.
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It's hard to look at these YouTube videos and actually believe the creators did not receive a extra carefully made frame..
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It's hard to look at these YouTube videos and actually believe the creators did not receive a extra carefully made frame..
.................no comment
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I'm not saying it's a scam, but as a company, i will definitely put a little extra in the product i am giving away for marketing.. Isn't that fair?
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I'm not saying it's a scam, but as a company, i will definitely put a little extra in the product i am giving away for marketing.. Isn't that fair?
Oh no, I agree 100% with you. My comment was aimed towards myself as cYcLiNg yOuTuBeR.
Receiving a faulty/defective product and being blasted about it on YouTube is not in a company's best interest. I just wish that same meticulous care and QC was extended to real world paying customers.
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It's hard to look at these YouTube videos and actually believe the creators did not receive a extra carefully made frame..
To be fair, it's made clear that the Hambini frame is 'special'. The kicker is that he also says that ICAN have told him they now face all their frames to the same tolerances. But there appears to be no evidence of that. If every newly sold frame was flawless in that respect, we'd have heard by now. Right?
FWIW I would have bought an A9 if it had 32mm clearance though. 28mm is just too little for the roads I ride, and today's market.
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To be fair, it's made clear that the Hambini frame is 'special'. The kicker is that he also says that ICAN have told him they now face all their frames to the same tolerances. But there appears to be no evidence of that. If every newly sold frame was flawless in that respect, we'd have heard by now. Right?
FWIW I would have bought an A9 if it had 32mm clearance though. 28mm is just too little for the roads I ride, and today's market.
Yeah, I have no doubt that Hambini received a well finished frame for his review. It's probably even possible for a company like ICAN to do a one-off frame, from lay-up to paint, for Hambini to review but we'd more likely hear about all the frames that aren't at least close to the same quality than we would about frames that are still pretty good quality. That's just the nature of the internet. I don't know how many people are even capable of measuring the roundness of a hole, but it's easy enough to tell if your creaking bottom bracket shell doesn't fit right or match up on both sides, or if your disc brakes won't stop squealing because of bad facing or overspray.
From what I can tell, without an endoscope, of my 2 Chinese frames from two different suppliers, the lay-up quality is pretty damn close to, if not as good, as what Hambini showed for the A22. Sadly, for good measure, the Giant Propel frame I have is also pretty comparable to the TCR Hambini showed, and just a mess on the interior if I compare it to my TanTan or Tideace.
Anyway, yeah, what I couldn't get past was the fact that the frame from their NA wherehouse doesn't come with handlebars.
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I saw the hambini video and that's partly why I asked the question. To see if anybody had any opposing opinion. Can you link to any of those forums saying their frames are not as good as the hambinis special?
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My Revolt had some nasty, sharp bits of excess resin that I needed to clean out, but otherwise was extremely clean. Not even a hint of a crease in the laminate anywhere I could see. I think the resin thing is quite common on Giants ... or is it the layup itself that's at fault in yours, like those allegedly QC-failed amateur team team-bike TCRs - one of which ended up with Hambini?
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I saw the hambini video and that's partly why I asked the question. To see if anybody had any opposing opinion. Can you link to any of those forums saying their frames are not as good as the hambinis special?
No, because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that nobody has claimed any recently delivered frames are as good as his. Which would be very unexpected if they really were facing all new frames to the same standards.
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My Revolt had some nasty, sharp bits of excess resin that I needed to clean out, but otherwise was extremely clean. Not even a hint of a crease in the laminate anywhere I could see. I think the resin thing is quite common on Giants ... or is it the layup itself that's at fault in yours, like those allegedly QC-failed amateur team team-bike TCRs - one of which ended up with Hambini?
I can't say. It's only a point of comparison to.my other frames and what Hambini has. I haven't had any issues with it since I built it up last October. He'll, I ran it into the side of a semi-truck at 20 mph, obliterating the front fork, and everything else held up fine. I'm no expert, but I kind of feel like those imperfections, and lack thereof, might be making a lot out of a litlle.
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No, because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that nobody has claimed any recently delivered frames are as good as his. Which would be very unexpected if they really were facing all new frames to the same standards.
Well, I think it would be more likely that we would hear about it if they weren't up to those standards. But I don't know, couldn't find any ICAN thread on the forum.
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Well, I think it would be more likely that we would hear about it if they weren't up to those standards. But I don't know, couldn't find any ICAN thread on the forum.
Don't think so. Almost nobody believed what was claimed. There would be great surprise if they were doing that.
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Lots of people here seem to have VB frames, but no one seem to have ICAN. How come? The price difference?
I compared weights on the 177 and A22 and they seem to be pretty similar.
Maybe i should get the A22 and find out if it really was a hambini special he got... I got an endoscope and could post some videos from the inside of the frame as well.
His frame was 1005 gram when they advertise as 1058, fishy?
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The ICAN A9 and the TT-X21/VB099 where compared to each other right about the same time. But I went for the 099/TT-X21 because of the price. Also the A9 look too similar to the Merida Reacto 4000. I wanted something that did not look like a copied frame from first glance.
Check out the ICAN A9 thread. I think only one major problem of which ICAN responded well to the customer and resolved the issue.
https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3027.0.html
VB seems to have relatively lowest price among other open mold dealers (If I'm not mistaken). Also it feels safer to buy open mold frame from a dealer that has multi-threaded followings in a forum such as this. It is just unfortunate that recent purchases and customer service reports from this most popular dealer in the forum has been really bad.
On Alibaba.com you can pay extra on the platform to have an inspector go and inspect your items at the factory for quality and make a report with videos or photos e.t.c. before your items is shipped to you.
In our context I would advice anyone who want to buy from ANY dealer from now on to request for photos and videos of all angles of the final product before it is shipped. That way we can avoid this problem where you receive your purchase and go "What the f*$&#*@K!"
The problem with any open mold frame purchase is the final check for desired / expected quality before it is shipped to you. At least you have the choice to accept minor imperfections or totally refuse the item before it is shipped.
Any problem after you receive your purchase will then be narrowed down to warranty issues.
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I don't think paying for an inspector is worthwhile for single purchases. As someone said, vb is always the cheapest. You can't expect the best build quality when you are choosing the seller only based on price. They are the cheapest for a reason. They have to cut costs somehow, and it seems to be in QC. It's up to the buyer to decide if paying the extra few dollars to hope for better quality. The extra dollars do not guarantee perfect qc, but the odds are increased.
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I don't think paying for an inspector is worthwhile for single purchases. As someone said, vb is always the cheapest. You can't expect the best build quality when you are choosing the seller only based on price. They are the cheapest for a reason. They have to cut costs somehow, and it seems to be in QC. It's up to the buyer to decide if paying the extra few dollars to hope for better quality. The extra dollars do not guarantee perfect qc, but the odds are increased.
Yup, it does not make sense to pay an inspector for a single purchase. I was referring to larger quantity purchase from factories.
That's why I said for our context we should request for photos of ALL angles of the frame before it is shipped.
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I've now pulled the trigger on an A22 frame with matching handlebar. Got the rest of the components ordered as well but it'll probably be 1-2 months before the build is finished.
So far the ICAN support has been good, tho it's before purchase. I'll keep this thread updated with pictures and stats.
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It's hard to look at these YouTube videos and actually believe the creators did not receive a extra carefully made frame..
At the most, they custom-manufactured a frame, being extra careful.
Having a known variance between frames that fall into QC, they likely cherry-picked a model example.
At the very least, you’d imagine they took care with the finishing bits (painting, drilling, facing, etc)
I don’t consider this an unfair practice, more than a natural inclination.
A bike company has to have some serious confidence, maybe even bordering on arrogance, to think they can pull any old frame off the line to give to someone to review.
Think of a fine-dining establishment. When they know a reviewer is coming in, that person will have their meal prepared by the executive chef, served by the head waiter, and paired with the best wines by the sommelier. All in hopes that it will garner the most positive review possible, and drive business to the restaurant. It’s no different, really.
In the end though, if what the reviewer receives is within the realm of possibility for a buyer, then it’s fair game. Buyers should assume a reviewer is getting the best example of what the company has.
Except for the increasingly rare mystery shopper-style reviews.
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Lots of people here seem to have VB frames, but no one seem to have ICAN. How come? The price difference?
I compared weights on the 177 and A22 and they seem to be pretty similar.
Maybe i should get the A22 and find out if it really was a hambini special he got... I got an endoscope and could post some videos from the inside of the frame as well.
His frame was 1005 gram when they advertise as 1058, fishy?
I was heavily considering an ICAN A22 prior to purchasing my VB-R-168 however there were a couple of things that put me off:
- On ICAN's site it states that they recommend an 25c/28c tyre however when I asked them more details on this they said a 28c would not fit and a 25c is the max size. I have 24mm internal rims (Farsports Gravel) and need to run at least a 28c tyre so this was no good
- I had a limited budget and the frame was a good few hundred euro's more than the VeloBuild
- The import and shipping costs for the ICAN were also significantly more than the VeloBuild - I think in total for a completly custom paint job on my 168 I paid around €750 inc. shipping and import, whereas the ICAN was coming out closer to €1300 for which I couldn't stretch the budget to.
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I was heavily considering an ICAN A22 prior to purchasing my VB-R-168 however there were a couple of things that put me off:
- On ICAN's site it states that they recommend an 25c/28c tyre however when I asked them more details on this they said a 28c would not fit and a 25c is the max size. I have 24mm internal rims (Farsports Gravel) and need to run at least a 28c tyre so this was no good
- I had a limited budget and the frame was a good few hundred euro's more than the VeloBuild
- The import and shipping costs for the ICAN were also significantly more than the VeloBuild - I think in total for a completly custom paint job on my 168 I paid around €750 inc. shipping and import, whereas the ICAN was coming out closer to €1300 for which I couldn't stretch the budget to.
Thanks for your answer. I really hope that it can take 28c because that's what it says in bold letters on their website and that's what I'm planning on running. We'll see when the frame arrives.
In my case the difference will be about 50 USD + import charge and tax on the handlebar, so total difference maybe 80 USD. They could send the frame from their EU warehouse but the handlebar is sent from China.
Let's see, i will pay my build here when done.
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Thanks for your answer. I really hope that it can take 28c because that's what it says in bold letters on their website and that's what I'm planning on running. We'll see when the frame arrives.
In my case the difference will be about 50 USD + import charge and tax on the handlebar, so total difference maybe 80 USD. They could send the frame from their EU warehouse but the handlebar is sent from China.
Let's see, i will pay my build here when done.
No worries at all. Re: tyre size, I think the A22 will fit up to a 28mm tyre but not necessarily a 28c tyre. My 28c Continental GP 5000s TR tyres measure at around 30.7mm which would be too big for the frame. My previous Hutchinson Fusion 5 Performance 28c tyres also came in at 30.9mm if I remember correctly.
Both tyres were mounted to a 24mm internal / 30mm external Farsports gravel rim and are run at around 75psi.
It might be that you will need to run a 25c tyre that will most likely measure close to 26mm to ensure they fit okay. Looking forward to seeing the outcome of your build as I do think the A22's are a great looking frame!
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So, now I've got all parts and put the bike together. I thought I'm gonna share my experiences with you.
The choice was between Velobuild VB177 or Ican A22 but with the recent bad reviews of Velobuild here on
the forum and the fact that I got a decent discount on the A22 I decided to go with it.
I got the A22 frame and handlebar for 860 USD including shipping, the handlebar was sent from China and
import fee landed on 15 USD, so total of 875 USD. The price of VB177 would be 810 USD.
Shipping was fast and no complaints with packaging.
With my limited experience the carbon work looks good, I checked the tubes with endoscope and they were really clean,
nothing sticking out. The only wrinkle I could see is at the bb area, see picture below. I'm not worried about it.
There was a small scratch in the paint on one of the chainstays, otherwise it looked pretty good.
Not in line with other frames but at the cost it was ok. It is really sensitive tho, a flake has come
off at the rear thru axle already, I have removed and tightened the thru axle maybe 5 times.
I meassured the BB as good as I could with a digital caliper and it seemed round and at the correct spec.
So the only problems I had with it so far is the paint scratch, paint coming off and every time I reinstall
the rear wheel I have to re-center the brake caliper or the brake will rub. I guess this is due to the
thru axle hole being a bit too big and giving the wheel some play when not tightened. I try to put load on the
saddle every time I tighten it but it doesnt help. First disc brake bike so I dont know if it's anything odd or not really.
They specify that it can take max 28c on their website, I dont know why really, I could easily fit 32c in the frame,
no problems front or rear.
My 28c GP5000 TL S on Elite wheels 50D meassure 29mm, for reference.
The groupset is SRAM frankenstein, rear derailleur and crankset is RED, cassette is Force and rest is Rival parts.
I'll specify the frame weights below but the complete build came in at 7,5 kg with pedals and heavy
bottle cages (33g each... ouch). So 7,1 kg without pedals and bottle cages.
Weighed on my kitchen scale:
Seatpost: 180g
Frame with cage bolts, derailleur hanger and fd mount: 1092g
Fork uncut: 392g
Handlebar 400x110: 420g
All in all I'm satisfied, it rides really well. See the carbon saddle thread for input on the EC90 saddle tho.
(https://i.ibb.co/3mQm637/20220731-132544.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VY5Yn1t)
(https://i.ibb.co/bdkWF7Z/IMG-20220712-182944.jpg) (https://ibb.co/88HKbXp)
(https://i.ibb.co/D8sHvWY/IMG-20220712-193958.jpg) (https://ibb.co/txkTvKz)
(https://i.ibb.co/vzpvs4h/IMG-20220712-194233.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KydzNxD)
(https://i.ibb.co/JFvRSrd/IMG-20220712-194319.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2Yv7pc6)
(https://i.ibb.co/QDNzSK1/IMG-20220712-194701.jpg) (https://ibb.co/phzGVL9)
(https://i.ibb.co/6wwV3Nr/IMG-20220712-194653.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V99r73J)
(https://i.ibb.co/ncxX8xH/IMG-20220712-194710.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VSfFpf7)