Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: Leejordan86 on December 22, 2022, 08:31:24 PM
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There doesn't seem to be much information out there on the Cervelo S5 copy frames and so I thought I'd start this topic to collect some information.
There are few photos and videos online about this frame but I'm finding it difficult to find so much as a model number!
The communication using the ali message center has been challenging. Doe anyone have more info!
I'd just like to finish off by saying I'm looking for an aero disc frame. The Elves Falath, Ican A22 and LTK268 look like great options but first looking to find out more information on the S5 copy.
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Do you think it’s a good idea to get a frame with proprietary parts from a seller that probably infringes patents?
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Do you think it’s a good idea to get a frame with proprietary parts from a seller that probably infringes patents?
this whole forum is pretty much dedicated to this.
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Do you think it’s a good idea to get a frame with proprietary parts from a seller that probably infringes patents?
You’re totally right, this frame in particular is quite unique compared to your Velobuild frames. I’m more intrigued than anything else even though I would buy one in a heartbeat.
On the other hand, as a bicycle mechanic and some who used to work at a bike shop, the mark up on high end bikes are a joke and the big companies are taking customers for a ride. If a genuine Cervelo S5 frame was twice the price of the copy I would buy it and so would many others which would pay for the R&D and the engineering fast. Unfortunately the genuine Cervelo is about 5 times the price.
I have enough spares and just need a frame to build a bike up and looking at aero options
If anyone has more info please post!
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this whole forum is pretty much dedicated to this.
I don’t know about the other sections in this forum but I have the impression that many threads in the road section are about vendors that have more or less established their own brand identity with frames that are similar to main stream frames.
With those brands you have a higher chance of getting spares down the road.
Getting replacement parts like fork is probably always hard if the vendor vanishes or doesn’t offer that part anymore but you can still use other stems/handlebar combos. And I think that is the main disadvantage.
I often read posts about the flexibility of chinese carbon handlebars, so if you’re not satisfied with the one supplied what are you gonna do? Buy one from cervelo for 400? (Just a guess)
So no, intuitively i don’t think it’s the same.
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Yes and buying from a vendor or one of the big brands is preferred, I own and support Dengfu and main brand frames but I’m trying to find out some more information about this S5 frame as well.
If it is designed as intended then it shouldn’t have any issues in the same manor that other vendor’s frames also shouldn’t have any issues.
If anyone has some information or purchased this S5 frame please your experience.
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Jumping in on this thread as a lurker and bike mechanic myself.
To give an example the Tarmac SL7 copies around are painted TFSA JH-33 Frames.
Buying a TFSA frame is considered ok, buying a replica is putting your life at risk.
It's all a bit strange if you ask me :)
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I do Not think you necessarily put your life at risk,
There might be lower quality but my issue would be that it’s not economical or ecological if you have to throw the bike in the trash if you can’t get parts for it easily.
(Personal preference of course as I am also dependent on the manufacturer for the fork when it comes to the Chinese carbon frame I’ll receive next month. But yeah. I just wanted to point this out. I also have an aeroad and the fact that you can’t exchange parts on the cockpits drives me nuts sometimes. But Canyon will probably still be around if i really need replacements …)
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I do Not think you necessarily put your life at risk,
There might be lower quality but my issue would be that it’s not economical or ecological if you have to throw the bike in the trash if you can’t get parts for it easily.
(Personal preference of course as I am also dependent on the manufacturer for the fork when it comes to the Chinese carbon frame I’ll receive next month. But yeah. I just wanted to point this out. I also have an aeroad and the fact that you can’t exchange parts on the cockpits drives me nuts sometimes. But Canyon will probably still be around if i really need replacements …)
So your issue is more around proprietary parts rather than the patent infringment?
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Sorry to sound like the devil’s advocate but how do you know it isn’t a copy, maybe it is a similar situation to the SL7
We don’t know much about this S5 frame yet so let’s see if any more information surfaces.
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sorry to derail this thread, if anyone has info on these frames or has built it up, I'd also be interested to see how it goes.
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So your issue is more around proprietary parts rather than the patent infringment?
The more a brand invests time and money to establish a reputation the more I’m fine with proprietary parts.
Regarsing patents - personally I wouldn’t ride the velobuild 218 or frames in general with unique designs. The 168 and sl7 for me isn’t that much of an issue because it doesnt look too different to many other road bike frames (at least from a glance…)
But that’s just me of course , i think everyone can do whatever they want with the money.
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The real S5 has enough points of failure and questionable design or engineering choices of its own. I think going for a knock off of it would introduce an unacceptable level of risk to most informed riders.
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Do you think it’s a good idea to get a frame with proprietary parts from a seller that probably infringes patents?
Great ethical question, I try to steer clear of direct copies mostly because people making them can't be trusted to put out a frame that is safe, it's a risk not worth. Chinese have yet to make a decent integrated cockpit that works. But considering how brands have gauged prices of stuff that is badly designed, I don't have a problem with Chinese copying most stuff. Cervelo S5 looks stupid to be honest, much rather see a R5 design, the classic road bikes with integrated front looks great.
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On a side note, this thread could basically be a useful / free market research for VB haha...
I foresee "an homage" to the Cervelo S5 coming soon.
People will definitely buy a Cervelo S5 copied frame. For some reason (maybe because of this forum) it feels more comfortable if it comes from VB compared to some random dealer.
Btw, I was trying to avoid buying a copy frame when I got the LTK268 / tt-x21 / 099 . Turns out it was a Dolan Ares or Lokka Ranger.
I wonder if there is a true open mold frame out there for people who want to avoid copied / homage frames.
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Btw, I was trying to avoid buying a copy frame when I got the LTK268 / tt-x21 / 099 . Turns out it was a Dolan Ares or Lokka Ranger.
I wonder if there is a true open mold frame out there for people who want to avoid copied / homage frames.
Apologies to Dolan, but I wonder where they source the Ares frameset from.
Here's a Road.CC Bike at Bedtime article from Feb '22. It says the Dolan Ares was released somtime in '21.
https://road.cc/content/feature/bike-bedtime-check-out-dolan-ares-road-bike-289985
I bought my X21 in Nov '20, and it had already been out a couple of months at least.
Regardless, I don't think the issue is with "homage" frames. I think the issue with the S5 knockoff is kind of a similar issue with the Trek Madone knockoffs. Could the isospeed decoupler on a Madone really be replicated on a knock-off? Similarly, the S5 knockoff looks the part, if that's what you want. I'm trying to imagine what building a bike from that frame and handlebar set up must be like.
I think with a supplier like VB, you at least have a know quantity with the Chris collective. Just look at all the build issues that have been worked out on this forum.
Whoever does an S5 build is going to be the guinea pig, but I feel like you'll have an audience at least.
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There seems to be a few sales of these on Ali so there must be a Guinea pig out there! The Ali store has only been live since Oct 2022 so that’s a little worrying.
Hambini definitely needs to get his hands on one of these.
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Here are some photos that I received from the seller. The fact that they want to communicate off Ali and via email is dodgy but if the product is real, there seems to be some good detail down to the rapid axles.
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Nothing dodgy about communicating off Ali they want to protect their storefront has this is still illegal to sell with the branding shown in those pictures!
I'm getting curious about a Ostro knockoff now ahaha.
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Yeah true.
There are a few S5 frames for sale on Facebook marketplace for 3 times the price, it can only make you wonder…
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If you want something long and low and aero I think you'd be much better served by a Speeder R49D than a knock-off Cervelo.
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This fake last gen S5 started popping up on Xianyu around September last year.
But who are you really fooling when you buy a fake frame? the finer details won't pass the smell test up close and having anything less than R8020 on it is going to make people doubt. Not to mention that it simply won't perform the same as the real thing when it comes to stiffness, weight and most importantly safety.
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If you want something long and low and aero I think you'd be much better served by a Speeder R49D than a knock-off Cervelo.
I was 90% of the way there with Peggy on an Ican A9 until you sent the the speeder R49D. This is amazing. I'll look at some of reviews and experiences
Thanks, a lot.
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S5 clone is on AliExpress, have anyone tried it? How does it ride?
I'm not racing any more, no need to spend $10K on a bike, but I do like the look.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804698527750.html
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sc207cd62c6ad42f2b71946a45bee9282c/Custom-Painting-2022-New-Road-Frame-T1000-Carbon-Disk-Bicycle-Racing-Frameset-BBright-With-Handlebar-Disc.jpg_Q90.jpg)
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So i asked seller (from taiwan eisen store) to send me photos of the inside, i attached them. Also he said that they are using EPS Technology.
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Keen to see a build on one of these! Interesting stuff.
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What exactly is the allure of purchasing a fake/counterfeit/non-authorized frame? I'm not asking maliciously or looking to debate. I just genuinely wanna know...
I'm a watch enthusiast myself. There is an entire sub-culture for fake Rolexes, however these watches have now gotten so close to the real thing they are almost indistinguishable without both a magnifying glass and an understanding of balance wheels and silicone hairsprings. Crazy stuff like that.
While I myself would rather opt for a high quality branded homage than a fake Rolex, truthfully I can understand the rationale. And a fake Rolex probably won't send your skull and collarbone into the tarmac if it fails on you.
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What exactly is the allure of purchasing a fake/counterfeit/non-authorized frame? I'm not asking maliciously or looking to debate. I just genuinely wanna know...
I'm a watch enthusiast myself. There is an entire sub-culture for fake Rolexes, however these watches have now gotten so close to the real thing they are almost indistinguishable without both a magnifying glass and an understanding of balance wheels and silicone hairsprings. Crazy stuff like that.
While I myself would rather opt for a high quality branded homage than a fake Rolex, truthfully I can understand the rationale. And a fake Rolex probably won't send your skull and collarbone into the tarmac if it fails on you.
Yeah, I think this question has been touched upon every time someone posts a link to the latest look-alike frame. If you're talking about an actual fake/counterfeit that somebody is trying to pass off as the real thing, I think the answer to your question here is probably something similar to the answer someone would give after buying a fake Rolex.
As for non-authorized, what do you mean? I'd say that most open mold frames are an "homage" to something being sold by a big name. Big names can try to cut into competitor's profits by throwing around the word "unauthorized" but it seems like a way of saying "you copied me" as if they don't spend half their RD budget trying to copy each other without saying they're doing it.
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What exactly is the allure of purchasing a fake/counterfeit/non-authorized frame? I'm not asking maliciously or looking to debate. I just genuinely wanna know...
I'm a watch enthusiast myself. There is an entire sub-culture for fake Rolexes, however these watches have now gotten so close to the real thing they are almost indistinguishable without both a magnifying glass and an understanding of balance wheels and silicone hairsprings. Crazy stuff like that.
While I myself would rather opt for a high quality branded homage than a fake Rolex, truthfully I can understand the rationale. And a fake Rolex probably won't send your skull and collarbone into the tarmac if it fails on you.
I think the majority of the time it is people in poorer countries who know they can never afford the real thing but still want to be seen on one or like the look of it.
If I rolled up to my local group ride where a good 20% are on legit s5 i'd be laughed at because people would be able to tell it's an aliexpress special since they've seen the real thing up close and can personally compare.
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Here is a ali listing with actual reviews
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804650256205.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US (https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804650256205.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US)
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People see bikes they like, if they are reasonably priced and work for what they need, they buy them.
Sure, some people look to fake they own an expensive bike which is a bit weird, but not most.
Most who buy these kinds of frames ride them as unbranded and enjoy them not caring about brand names, and would never consider paying the price of the original. It’s really not that complex. I don’t see why people get so upset. Those who would buy the original would never consider the clone.
IP theft is not great, the customer for this bike is not the same customer as for the cervelo however.
I don’t care what people ride. So long as they are happy. It’s not my business. I do find bikes like this one interesting however.
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Also availability: I never set out to buy a fake Dogma. I went to my LBS thinking about actually buying a new road bike in the middle of covid supply chain issues. I was told I’d probably have to wait two years upon ordering and even that would not be a guarantee. So I decided to stick with my wheels and groupset for the time being which meant staying with rim brakes. But knowing where the bike industry is going I accept that at some point high end rim brake stuff will be harder and harder to get. So I wasn’t going to shell out thousands for a rim brake frame and I certainly wasn’t going to pay 6 grand for a rim brake Dogma F frameset. There’s next to no direct mount rim brake frames from China with modern shapes and cable integration available. So that’s why I went with the VB 218. I’d never stick decals on it to make it look like the real thing, though.
Now had I found an equivalent non counterfeit option, I’d probably have picked that. But with all that said, I’m very pleased with the bike.
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On the other hand it would be incredible fun to ride a fake Cervelo or Dogma and be faster than rich dentists on their 12k Pinarellos. Who's laughing now b*tch?
With that said if people think real stuff is 10 times better than say VB218 because it's 10 times expensive they are grossly mistaken. It's not like Cervelo or such are pinnacle of engineering. Little loud mouth but Hambini's video are worth watching on the subject.
I feel it's the elitist attitude of cyclists that's detrimental to the sport than anything else. Let people buy and enjoy whatever they want. I bet there's countless people in supposedly rich countries who can easily afford real stuff but won't do it.
We are literally on a forum for Chiner bikes. To question the logic or reason as to why they bought a fake Cervelo or put S-works sticker is silly. Personally if I had a fake I would keep it blank but if someone puts a gun to my head and makes me choose then I'll go with brand name sticker than some other cryptic text / my own name.
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Even though that bike looks cool, it just doesn't seem practical unless you pick up a spare fork and drop bars with it.
Also I don't get the allure of fake branded frames. I'd rather just ride with no branding. The only thing I can think of are the weekend coffee riders looking to impress the other non-serious cyclists on how much money they spent. It's not like you'll impress your future mate with a fancy bike! Lol
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Why not just choose what you like and suits your riding style? Not much that looks like this one.
For a lot of people the brand thing and what others think will be a non issue. I don’t ride anything branded.
Does not have to be a pose, even though a large portion of those who do buy branded do so for some brand clout.
Some people want to focus on the riding ;) and picking a bike that will best service that.
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Any why do you need a spare fork and bars? I have never needed spares for those..
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Any why do you need a spare fork and bars? I have never needed spares for those..
All it takes is a bad wipe out, and those non-universal parts will be a pain to source. Maybe you can do without the fork, but almost all my crashes result in dropping my bars.
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In the event of a break, why not just buy new ones from the vendor?
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On the other hand it would be incredible fun to ride a fake Cervelo or Dogma and be faster than rich dentists on their 12k Pinarellos. Who's laughing now b*tch?
With that said if people think real stuff is 10 times better than say VB218 because it's 10 times expensive they are grossly mistaken. It's not like Cervelo or such are pinnacle of engineering. Little loud mouth but Hambini's video are worth watching on the subject.
I feel it's the elitist attitude of cyclists that's detrimental to the sport than anything else. Let people buy and enjoy whatever they want. I bet there's countless people in supposedly rich countries who can easily afford real stuff but won't do it.
We are literally on a forum for Chiner bikes. To question the logic or reason as to why they bought a fake Cervelo or put S-works sticker is silly. Personally if I had a fake I would keep it blank but if someone puts a gun to my head and makes me choose then I'll go with brand name sticker than some other cryptic text / my own name.
These dentists set their bikes up like sheit as well, in my country s5's are literally everywhere, they have noisy unwaxxed chains, slow tyres, and run wide handlebars.
I am dropping them constantly on my commuter while riding zone 2 that probably is worth like $1k.
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Questioning one's spending choices on fake frames: BAD
Insulting one's spending choices on legitimate (albeit expensive) frames: GOOD
Chinatown logic...
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Questioning one's spending choices on fake frames: BAD
Insulting one's spending choices on legitimate (albeit expensive) frames: GOOD
Chinatown logic...
Well... paying a bike 14,000 while you can get the equivalent for 7,000
That means two bikes instead of one, just for a sticker.
So yes, it may appear we know something they don't 8)
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I don’t judge people on bikes with 5digit price tags. I don’t like where the market is going but if they got the money they’re entitled to spend it on bikes like that. If I had money in abundance I’d probably contemplate buying a top end road bike as well, no matter the price tag.
But for me, one of the biggest reasons to go with Chiner-frames is also: I’m a DIY guy and I like custom solutions. I love fiddling around with stuff. I love building bikes myself. I have very particular ideas and I like to get a custom paintjob. And whenever I’m checking complete bike offerings from the big brands, I tend to find something I don’t like. So I much rather collect parts myself and build my own.
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But for me, one of the biggest reasons to go with Chiner-frames is also: I’m a DIY guy and I like custom solutions. I love fiddling around with stuff. I love building bikes myself. I have very particular ideas and I like to get a custom paintjob. And whenever I’m checking complete bike offerings from the big brands, I tend to find something I don’t like. So I much rather collect parts myself and build my own.
I'm fully on board with your mindset. Sadly most major brands are not really incentivized to sell stand-alone framesets. This is problem for me personally because I already have all the wheels and components I need.
This is where Chinese frames become super appealing.
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But for me, one of the biggest reasons to go with Chiner-frames is also: I’m a DIY guy and I like custom solutions. I love fiddling around with stuff. I love building bikes myself. I have very particular ideas and I like to get a custom paintjob. And whenever I’m checking complete bike offerings from the big brands, I tend to find something I don’t like. So I much rather collect parts myself and build my own.
Couldn't agree with you more. While price is a definite push toward chiner frames, the real pull is the "uniqueness" and customizability. I can't see myself buying another frame with a standard factory paint job after having done this 3 times already. Heck, I can't even see myself paying someone for a paint job, I found a new hobby in the process. :) I like that my bikes look like nothing else out here in my area. ;D