Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Cyclocross Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: Phaxe on July 15, 2024, 06:37:39 PM
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Hi All-
I'm in the process of putting parts together for an airwolf gravel build.
I'd love others opinions on groupsets. I'm currently torn between the new 12 speed mech GRX, and the eGR. When all is said and done with the price, they come pretty close to each other with shipping and taxes to AUS, and I'm wondering whether to go the 'tried and true' route, or take a punt with the eGR.
What would others do in this situation, or what HAVE you done?
Cheers
Tom
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Looking at the ER9/ERX thread, L-Twoo's support (or lack of) is a total shitshow. Of course, you might have no issues and you might be totally fine, but if you do, you're in a pretty bad space. Expect to have zero support and be comfortable with doing your own diagnostics.
I went through the same process recently and have gone down the route of SRAM electronic instead as I was able to find some second-hand shifters/levers pretty cheap. Will cost me a fair bit more than eGR but any potential cost savings means stuff all if it leaves me stranded somewhere without cell coverage. Given that much of my local gravel riding is in areas with no cell coverage, the fear of having eGR fail on me was too much. This is also going to be used on a bike for touring as well so some spares availability is useful.
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I'm about 600mi in on my eGR and it's been fantastic so far. However.... what was just said above is true. The eRX thread is full of either people like me who've had nothing but good things to say and others who have bad experiences. Very little middle ground.
With that out of the way, though, the eGR thread has been very, very quiet. I'm not sure if it's because they're selling a bunch and everyone is using them without issue, like me. Or, maybe they're just not selling as many. No way to tell.
I have mainly been using mine on the road, so I haven't abused it much. A few rides here and there on some single track trails. A few rides in light rain, enough to soak it, but not exactly torrential downpours. The battery life is excellent with the batteries I've loaded it with. The shifting is just as dialed in as the day I set it. Nothing but good experiences so far! And, it will surely continue that way, right up until it no longer does...
I am quite bummed about Ltwoo's bad rep. I was loving electronic shifting so much that I can't stand the thought of going back to mechanical. I am looking into a full road build with a 2x drive and now I don't know what to do.
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No issues with my e-gr. FWIW, my Red AXS RD exploded riding over some cobbles.
If it explodes when you have no cell coverage it doesn't matter how much you spent on it.
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if for you they come close in price, stay away from ltwoo. if anything, from a resale value standpoint.
i've installed 5 er9, i lost count of the RD deaths i've had, i've given up on warranty claims, and 1 RD died on a downhill with bad asphalt, so it's absolutely not vibration proofed. Is the egr much better? maybe. should you want to find out if there's no obvious price advantage? no.
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I've been happy so far with the eGR I put on my Cutthroat this Spring. But if you can source GRX Di2 or SRAM AXS for similar pricing, go with that. They are a known quantity with local support. But when I last looked, those were still double (or more) the price so it was worth the punt. AND because mine was a retrofit on an 11s system with two existing wheelsets and cassettes, the total upgrade cost would have been substantially more. (Shame on Both 'Big S' companies for not offering configurable 'speeds' with electronic. No excuses, just greedy business to force full upgrades) All the Chinese e-shift vendors have realized there is a market for configurable shift setups.
If the question is mechanical from mainline brand or LTWOO eGR, that's more complicated. Mechanical works. Usually :-) Shift setup and maintenance in an offroad environment can be a bit fiddly in my experience where electronic is set and forget (except for RD hangers). The biomechanics are also nicer on electronic. I've never ridden an 10s or higher setup that wasn't straight from an adjustment work perfectly. Always a little finesse to get some gears to engage perfectly. Not a big deal, particularly for someone who started riding before indexing. But it does lead to reduced shifting to avoid the hassle. With e-shifting (I have eGR and an AXS setup on two different bikes) it just works, always and I find myself not hesitating to snick one up or down for a moment. But that's me. YMMV. Also, if you have any hand or wrist issues, e-shift is a savior. I had a messed up wrist a while back and could barely work the front derailleur for a while. Wouldn't have been an issue with e-shift. These are decisions you need to make for your taste.
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I'm one of the lucky ones and my two ER9 road bikes have been running solid the last few months. While I appreciate a good mechanical setup, electronic is just faster to shift and gear fine tuning guarantees near perfect shifts on every cog. Also cassette speed selection is the biggest draw for me. Not being locked into 10/11/12/13 speed is a game changer.
Though for gravel, I plan on staying mechanical for the time being. Mainly because I still have mechanical Shimano parts laying around and setting up a 1x bike is fairly easy. I still have the option to run 2x gravel as well. Gravel riding also puts more strain on my bike and I'm usually in remote areas. If I crash, I can get my bike up-n-running even if I've sustained bike damage or my shifters get tweaked. A replacement GRX RD is easily purchased at most bike shops or online retailers.
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I'll choose mechanical shimano grx over electronic L-Twoo any day.
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I'll choose mechanical shimano grx over electronic L-Twoo any day.
Your opinion is based on personal experience? ::)
As someone currently on a mechanical GRX bike and also someone who is running 2 ER9 bikes, if I was starting fresh I'd easily go eGR. Proper 2x 14500 battery selection, correct cable installation w/preventative weatherproofing measures and buying from a legit store (like the 80 Design store on AliEx) should minimize any issues. Also I'd even consider buying a backup RD, not because I think the unit will go bad, because you're more likely to crash it on a trail as opposed to being on the road. Total cost would still be less than SRAM 13 speed XPLR and the EGR is already a 13 speed groupset.
I'd say 80% of DIY bike builders are screwing up something along the process. I certainly mess up on occasion, but I refuse to go into Karen-mode pointing fingers unless I've exhausted all possible solutions to fixing the problems.
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Your opinion is based on personal experience? ::)
As someone currently on a mechanical GRX bike and also someone who is running 2 ER9 bikes, if I was starting fresh I'd easily go eGR. Proper 2x 14500 battery selection, correct cable installation w/preventative weatherproofing measures and buying from a legit store (like the 80 Design store on AliEx) should minimize any issues. Also I'd even consider buying a backup RD, not because I think the unit will go bad, because you're more likely to crash it on a trail as opposed to being on the road. Total cost would still be less than SRAM 13 speed XPLR and the EGR is already a 13 speed groupset.
I'd say 80% of DIY bike builders are screwing up something along the process. I certainly mess up on occasion, but I refuse to go into Karen-mode pointing fingers unless I've exhausted all possible solutions to fixing the problems.
I went with eGR. Zero regrets so far (1000km in)
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I have an eGR with about 700 miles on it. No regrets so far, either (other than crashing a week or so ago and bending a link on the rear derailleur).
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a little update:
one of our er9 sets sold now had a major battery failure.
The battery tray burned down while charging. there seemed to be a short in the pcb, the batteries still work fine and have no indicator of being damaged, volts and current and capacity still showing "new" cells.
we are not able to define the cause as it was charged as usual.
We now send the warranty claim to ltwoo,they have asked for pictures which are sent..now, deadsilence...
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a little update:
one of our er9 sets sold now had a major battery failure.
The battery tray burned down while charging. there seemed to be a short in the pcb, the batteries still work fine and have no indicator of being damaged, volts and current and capacity still showing "new" cells.
we are not able to define the cause as it was charged as usual.
We now send the warranty claim to ltwoo,they have asked for pictures which are sent..now, deadsilence...
You guys in Europe must of bought all the hangover Monday morning or end-of-day Friday production runs. It seems like all your LTwoo hardware over there is just shoddy ASF.
Was weather or wet conditions a factor in the battery holder shorting out? I only ride in dry weather and have my battery holders covered in bubble wrap for both protection and to hold them in-place in the seatpost. Was the battery cable compromised in anyway?
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You guys in Europe must of bought all the hangover Monday morning or end-of-day Friday production runs. It seems like all your LTwoo hardware over there is just shoddy ASF.
Was weather or wet conditions a factor in the battery holder shorting out? I only ride in dry weather and have my battery holders covered in bubble wrap for both protection and to hold them in-place in the seatpost. Was the battery cable compromised in anyway?
the bike was ridden mostly indoor with no rain or moisture involved. the cable looks brand new..
i am not asking for this kind of trouble...the biggest pita is that ltwoo does not offer any help...after sending the photo..
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Definitely not making excuses for LTWOO, but did you send it via the retailer or directly? I've gotten answers to questions from LTWOO but they do insist that support is supposed to go through the retailers. In today's world, I think that manufacturers should be prepared for direct support along with channel support but that may be one of the issues.
Also on the failure, do I understand correctly that you believe the failure was the circuit board (or connectors) in the battery carrier?
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the bike was ridden mostly indoor with no rain or moisture involved. the cable looks brand new..
i am not asking for this kind of trouble...the biggest pita is that ltwoo does not offer any help...after sending the photo..
Yeah, I think that's a big failure on LTwoo's part. My ER9 groupsets are working solid and I would probably get an EGR as well, but I definitely wouldn't recommend them to anyone who isn't bike competent. Also it seems 80 Design Store seems like the only seller that's taking personal responsibility for any issues. It's a shame too, because LTwoo whittled away being a viable alternative to the big brands by not offering a clear customer service path. I think reputation wise, they've taken a big hit internationally.
They should take a similar approach to Wheeltop. They could sell direct and say they will handle warranty issues only for groupsets bought from them. They can still have third party sellers who could sell groupsets at a lower cost, but those sellers would be responsible for covering warranty issues.
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Yeah, I think that's a big failure on LTwoo's part. My ER9 groupsets are working solid and I would probably get an EGR as well, but I definitely wouldn't recommend them to anyone who isn't bike competent. Also it seems 80 Design Store seems like the only seller that's taking personal responsibility for any issues. It's a shame too, because LTwoo whittled away being a viable alternative to the big brands by not offering a clear customer service path. I think reputation wise, they've taken a big hit internationally.
They should take a similar approach to Wheeltop. They could sell direct and say they will handle warranty issues only for groupsets bought from them. They can still have third party sellers who could sell groupsets at a lower cost, but those sellers would be responsible for covering warranty issues.
Good observation and recommendation. I'm rooting for LTWOO here. They clearly have at least a "good enough" first try with the electronic groupsets. And possibly better (verdict still pending IMO). The price/performance point they are hitting blows away the big three (well, sadly 2. something since Campy is a bit of an outlier lately) and will hopefully provide some downward pressure on pricing. But, if they don't get their go-to-market strategy and execution together, it won't help at all.
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Definitely not making excuses for LTWOO, but did you send it via the retailer or directly? I've gotten answers to questions from LTWOO but they do insist that support is supposed to go through the retailers. In today's world, I think that manufacturers should be prepared for direct support along with channel support but that may be one of the issues.
Also on the failure, do I understand correctly that you believe the failure was the circuit board (or connectors) in the battery carrier?
we established ltwoo in our onlineshop before items popped up at aliexpress..we spread the brand as the first outlet in europe and tried to work as a distributor..all the products were bought at the factory...
we are not the only "distributor" which gets ghosted.
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Good observation and recommendation. I'm rooting for LTWOO here. They clearly have at least a "good enough" first try with the electronic groupsets. And possibly better (verdict still pending IMO). The price/performance point they are hitting blows away the big three (well, sadly 2. something since Campy is a bit of an outlier lately) and will hopefully provide some downward pressure on pricing. But, if they don't get their go-to-market strategy and execution together, it won't help at all.
the easiest way for shimano to react would be to open the software to the same standard as the chinese approaching it. open di2 two both worlds 11- and 12 speed would be a game changer...
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the easiest way for shimano to react would be to open the software to the same standard as the chinese approaching it. open di2 two both worlds 11- and 12 speed would be a game changer...
Unfortunately I wouldn't hold out hope for them to be so open minded. Keeping their system locked down protects sales on cassettes, chains, cranksets, wheelsets, etc.
Being able to pair your derailleur with virtually any kind of component from any brand and dial it all in electronically saves me an enormous amount of money as a consumer. And, even if I do want the best performance and want the best Shimano has to offer, if I damage or wear something out, I can throw on my old spare 11sp or even 10sp components or wheelset or something and "get by" for a time while I price hunt and wheel & deal to save some money or wait for a big sales event. Without that, I'm forced to buy expensive stuff immediately to get back on the road as quickly as possible. Being able to say that you need a Shimano everything for it all to work and work well protects sales for everything of theirs.
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the easiest way for shimano to react would be to open the software to the same standard as the chinese approaching it. open di2 two both worlds 11- and 12 speed would be a game changer...
Neither Shimano nor SRAM are going to do that any time soon. Being able to support different 'speeds' is truly trivial. They've probably done it in testing. But it is against their business model. They want to force full upgrades of drivelines. Mechanical systems at least have real differences between the derailleur parts. But electronic shift doesn't have that. It is also why Shimano continues to offer an array of groupset lines below 105 that differentiate themselves partly on the different 'speeds'.
Shimano is showing an interesting turn of late with CUES having some more flexibility and compatibility. But I believe that is strictly driven by a desire to reduce SKUs in their inventory (costs) not consumer flexibility.
This is a big reason I'm hoping LTWOO and Wheeltop (and Sensah maybe) have some success. They are using this flexibility as an entry point even though not that many people will actually need it (I say that knowing that the 11-12s gap is probably widely used like I am with an 11s bike getting eshift that otherwise isn't possible with Big S brands.). I'm not pooping on Big S and the other Big S. I have and like their product. But I don't like their product segmentation and pricing strategies and hope to break a hole.
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To go back on topic slightly, I did try a GRX 822 small cage (45t max) RD with my Ultegra 11 speed shifters. It did not shift properly. Towards the big cogs, it was horrendous. In fact it gave me a better appreciation of the 11 speed GRX derailleurs being closely aligned with the road groupsets (GRX 822 does away with the shadow RD hanger). I ended up swapping to a Goatlink extender which allowed me to shift properly with a GRX 812 RD and a 9-46t 11 speed cassette. In fact I had better chain line alignment by doing this.
Even though a YT'er was able to get the long cage GRX 822 RD to work (w/11 speed shifters), at least for me it was no-go. I'd say EGR definitely has an advantage in this regards doing away with shifter/RD compatibility issues.