Chinertown
Other Resources => Component Deals & Selection => Topic started by: Serge_K on July 23, 2024, 09:20:04 AM
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I have several friends looking to buy a decent road bike in Europe (France & Germany) and everything they send me looks overpriced, in the 1000-1400 eur range. So i'm wondering how low i can go building good enough chinese carbon road bikes.
Any reco for either rim brake groups (11 speed or more), or full hydro disc groups (11 speed or more), along w price ranges?
i'm not going to recommend them to build ltwoo er9 bikes, goes without saying. and i assume they wont have full cable integration (easier maintenance, tweaks, better shifting...).
I'm thinking of getting them to buy a new chinese frame & group, 2nd hand alloy wheelset, put gp5000 tyres w TPU tubes, and upgrade the wheels down the road.
thanks!
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Just get a second hand Ultegra 11sp hydraulic groupset. The people with more money are trying to get rid of them to get the latest and greatest. Should be around 400-450 for an entire groupset with crank, cassette and chain. So even less without the crank.
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Unless you wait for the big sales, building a chinese frame is not incredibly cheap.
Plus factor in cost of having it built or buying tools to build it yourself.
A "cheap" carbon road frame is about $600.
Full hydro group is going to be about another $400-$500.
Cheap carbon wheels about $400 or more.
Then all the other pieces you'll need add up as well. (bars, stem, saddle, bar tape, tires, bottle cages, etc.)
EDIT: to answer your actual question, I do like the Ltwoo hdyro group on my gravel bike. If I were to build up a road bike I'd go with their R9 hydro 2x11 group.
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I have several friends looking to buy a decent road bike in Europe (France & Germany) and everything they send me looks overpriced, in the 1000-1400 eur range. So i'm wondering how low i can go building good enough chinese carbon road bikes.
Any reco for either rim brake groups (11 speed or more), or full hydro disc groups (11 speed or more), along w price ranges?
i'm not going to recommend them to build ltwoo er9 bikes, goes without saying. and i assume they wont have full cable integration (easier maintenance, tweaks, better shifting...).
I'm thinking of getting them to buy a new chinese frame & group, 2nd hand alloy wheelset, put gp5000 tyres w TPU tubes, and upgrade the wheels down the road.
thanks!
Honestly? Fly to Portugal spend some days there, order in a Decathlon a Van Rysel with Carbon Frame, with Tiagra hydraulic for 1400euro. Best value for money, no headaches and warranty in any decathlon. U can upgrade the wheels later.
Chinese frame etc is only worth it for the project (or for customisation if u are picky). That or if u try to do a groupbuy to have more power of negotiation. I can hop on for a gravel one too here for BE.
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get a full bike: Java Fuoco for cheap:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806141971861.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.84909Uhr9Uhr4l&algo_pvid=ab02bfb4-dacb-49d8-80a5-85439f6cff53&algo_exp_id=ab02bfb4-dacb-49d8-80a5-85439f6cff53-0&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21USD%211060.00%211060.00%21%21%211060.00%211060.00%21%402103080517217879821223673eebe3%2112000036779622448%21sea%21US%212269827435%21&curPageLogUid=4Nw4b3xnTthO&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch%7Cquery_from%3A
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Thanks for the answers so far.
- On second hand Ultegra: labour intensive, and probably out of budget. if it were my bike though, agreed 100%.
- On Portugal decathlon arbitrage: love the idea. it's 400 eur more in france, looks like. If it were 1100 or 1200, it'd be a deal hard to pass on. At 1400, it's not bad, but it's not great. The tyres are probably trash, the cassette is 32 not 34, for some reason they put 48-34 and not 50-34, i dont see the point of that; it's 10 speed. But yeah, a full carbon bike w 28C tyres & hydro Shiamano group, turn key, for that price, with the backing of decathlon, this isn't bad at all.
- On group buy: i'll keep it in mind!
- On Ltwoo R9 2x11, i'll have a look at that! What's a good price for that w / w/o shipping? Are the shifters compatible with Shimano FD/RD?
- On Java Fuoco - i clicked on the link and saw c.1200 eur bike (good) and c.450 eur shipping to France (not good :))). What are you guys seeing?
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Thanks for the answers so far.
- On second hand Ultegra: labour intensive, and probably out of budget. if it were my bike though, agreed 100%.
- On Portugal decathlon arbitrage: love the idea. it's 400 eur more in france, looks like. If it were 1100 or 1200, it'd be a deal hard to pass on. At 1400, it's not bad, but it's not great. The tyres are probably trash, the cassette is 32 not 34, for some reason they put 48-34 and not 50-34, i dont see the point of that; it's 10 speed. But yeah, a full carbon bike w 28C tyres & hydro Shiamano group, turn key, for that price, with the backing of decathlon, this isn't bad at all.
- On group buy: i'll keep it in mind!
- On Ltwoo R9 2x11, i'll have a look at that! What's a good price for that w / w/o shipping? Are the shifters compatible with Shimano FD/RD?
- On Java Fuoco - i clicked on the link and saw c.1200 eur bike (good) and c.450 eur shipping to France (not good :))). What are you guys seeing?
If you you such kind of customisation, better to build them.
About Ltwoo R9 I suspect you'll want them hydraulic, which is around 180/200... Considering a new full 105 is around 500 all-in I don't see why u would even consider an ltwoo.
Every time I am going down that rabbit hole, I end up in the same conclusion. Sth off the shelf is usually cheaper, more reliable if you cope with customisation later (like wheels).
I took a look lately at the Twitter bikes. Again, not perfect, decent pricing, but it's only worth it if bought "bulk", just like Java, because of shipping cost.
Last build I made was around 1.6k€ but with a lot of tight control and a 105 11s for 190€.
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About Ltwoo R9 I suspect you'll want them hydraulic, which is around 180/200... Considering a new full 105 is around 500 all-in I don't see why u would even consider an ltwoo.
Last build I made was around 1.6k€ but with a lot of tight control and a 105 11s for 190€.
Where do you get your shimano stuff from? 105 for 190, what did you get?
full 105 for 500, where, and does that include rotors, k7, chain, discs, cranks, everything?
At these prices, then i agree, Shimano.
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190 was second hand. I got full - crank, cassete, shifters, rotors etc etc. It was a nice deal :), but I screwed already one of the shifters ahahah but that was my fault.
Full 105 - here is 599, but every now and then they have promos. https://www.vaneycksport.com/en/shimano-groupset-11-speed-105-r7020-disc-short-cage.html
you can also find it cheaper on Ali- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006653718580.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.3.3b1bUT68UT68z9&algo_pvid=42f967af-7959-4882-9752-bf462d88db1d&algo_exp_id=42f967af-7959-4882-9752-bf462d88db1d-1&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21EUR%21998.52%21489.86%21%21%217710.56%213782.65%21%40211b813f17218335512304096e8a0a%2112000037974985689%21sea%21BE%21128886434%21X&curPageLogUid=IEgRyg83miKe&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch%7Cquery_from%3A
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Even though I'm using LTwoo ER9 electronic groupsets on both my road bikes, I just don't like LTwoo mechanical stuff. For example the plastic down shift levers are prone to breaking and the Ltwoo FD is an annoying kludge.
I'd rather using mechanical 105 and pair it up with some Juin Tech F1s calipers or go with Sensah hydraulic shifters paired with Shimano front/rear derailleurs. I never had any issues with Sensah mechanical shifters.
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Ah, Sensah hydraulic shifters + shimano FD&RD, I like that idea. I saw the derailleurs for under 100 eur for a pair, new. the shimano shifters are very expensive though. Which version of sensah is compatible with shimano road derailleurs?
on the 105 groupsets. So the 500 is 600, and you need a bigger cassette & a long cage derailleur, so that's 100 eur more, and you recoup 60 eur or so on the parts you sell, but that's far from plug and play.
I like the aliexpress shimano group, how do you get that shipped to europe? Most things around 200 eur or more on aliexpress show as not able to ship to France these days?
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Sensah Team Pro and shimano mechs seems like a good compromise.
Regular Sensah is Sram compatible I believe.
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Sensah 11/12 speed Team Pro shifters can be used with with any current 11/12 Shimano road derailleurs. In fact I like the haptics of the Sensah left FD trim with super firm shifts/trim. Going this route opens you up using everything from GRX, 105, Ultegra in either 1x or 2x.
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If you really consider a non-hydraulic disc brake bike, I would then go search for a second hand rim brake bike...
They are dirty cheap now and you can get smashing deals.
That or open the wallet. In any case, if it's not for u, you won't feel it. Unless you plan on selling your services like I do to make some cash. But again, be ready for some headaches with that.
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What's a good price for sensah team pro shifters & brakes? I suspect Aliexpress is the place to find them?
i will not build mechanical disc bikes again. Been there, done that. Either rim brake or full hydraulic going fwd.
i may run my simulations with sensah team pro 11 + shimano 105 FD & RD then.
on 2nd hand, my friends are only finding ugly ass bikes, for a lot of money. The crap people sell for 1k eur in france & germany is shocking. i'm not checking myself, it's the links they share w me.
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Sensah Official Store on AliEx. At least if you have any issues, you can hopefully get direct support from them.
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If you’re going rim brake, you can get 105 11s groups on Ali for cheap.
Shimano 105 R7000 Groupset 2x11s Road Bike Set Front Derailleur Rear Derailleur SS GS Shifter Cassette HG601 Road Bicycle Set
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mMuNriu
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That is cheap indeed!
How are people buying stuff over 200 euro on AliExpress shipped to Europe? Most of the listings I see say "can't be shipped to your location". Is there a workaround?
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I guess it's sth for FR. I can order to PT and BE. Above 150 there are likely customs though.
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Java Fuoco looks about right. From USA, I paid around ~usd1k for the bike, around ~usd250 for shipping. I understand in EU shipping is higher. Keep in mind, other than the 105 12psd mech group, the crankset and wheelset is kind of heavy (50mm deep aero carbon rim, steel spokes), the bike will be around 9-9.5kg.
Thanks for the answers so far.
- On second hand Ultegra: labour intensive, and probably out of budget. if it were my bike though, agreed 100%.
- On Portugal decathlon arbitrage: love the idea. it's 400 eur more in france, looks like. If it were 1100 or 1200, it'd be a deal hard to pass on. At 1400, it's not bad, but it's not great. The tyres are probably trash, the cassette is 32 not 34, for some reason they put 48-34 and not 50-34, i dont see the point of that; it's 10 speed. But yeah, a full carbon bike w 28C tyres & hydro Shiamano group, turn key, for that price, with the backing of decathlon, this isn't bad at all.
- On group buy: i'll keep it in mind!
- On Ltwoo R9 2x11, i'll have a look at that! What's a good price for that w / w/o shipping? Are the shifters compatible with Shimano FD/RD?
- On Java Fuoco - i clicked on the link and saw c.1200 eur bike (good) and c.450 eur shipping to France (not good :))). What are you guys seeing?
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That is cheap indeed!
How are people buying stuff over 200 euro on AliExpress shipped to Europe? Most of the listings I see say "can't be shipped to your location". Is there a workaround?
Hi Serge, I was under the impression you were aware of Sensah, so I did not bring it up. I do agree with jonathan and I can recommend Sensah.
Running three groupsets from Sensah, a 2x11 on my trainer, a 1x11 on a "monsterbike" and a 2x12 on a Velobuild VB-R-099.
All completely mechanical, shifting not as smooth as Shimano but working fine.
Mechanical disc brakes, of course hydraulic disc brakes are superior but mechanical works (running TRP Spyre-C, Juin Tech F1 and Onirii BR-05 - recommend compressionless housing).
I have been eying their HRD for a while, pairing it with a Shimano FD and RD sounds very appealing.
No issues with shipping groupsets from AliExpress to Europe, Germany, so far and indeed prices are incl. shipping when advertised so be the seller.
Local taxes might apply, in many cases shipments pass customs without taxes (at least in my experience) because the tax declaration on the outside is...how would you call that...creative?
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I'm not touching mechanical disc brakes again.
On the French ebay site, there are lots of people selling 105 shifters and hydraulic calipers for about 230 euro, which is probably going to be hard to beat.
I don't want to touch thumb shifters as they just feel prehistoric in my mind (right or wrong), and so that leaves the sensah team pro hrd but it must be very new because I'm struggling to even find it.
I got a quote on Alibaba for the Sensah team pro HRD shifters + calipers for 223 USD. Given that's before shipping, and with Shimano 105 shifters + calipers at around 230 eur in france, doesn't make sense to take on the brain damage of shipping + risk of beta testing unfinished products without customer support.
Further edit:
TEAM pro model: Compatible with Shimano 105/5800/6800, Shimano cable ratio; 2*11 speed, (aluminum alloy hand change + clip), $180 set.
TEAM pro model: Compatible with Shimano 105/5800/6800, Shimano cable ratio; 2*11 speed, (carbon hand change + clip), $197.15 set.
Aka, shifters only (no calipers), still not competititve vs Shimano 105 11s second hand in France (or brand new but taken off a bike and sold on French second hand websites)
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I'm curious, do the Sensah HRD shifters not ship direct to France? If not, that sucks.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805962675647.html (https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805962675647.html)
Though you can't go wrong with 105 hydraulic shifters. Another option is finding Ultegra hydraulic shifters and pairing them with hydraulic LTwoo or ZRace XG calipers. I tend to prefer the Ultegra carbon levers and higher quality shift cables.
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"This product can't be shipped to your address. Select another product or address. "
And then you find other listings where the shipping cost is just insane, like 200 usd item and another 150 in shipping, which makes no sense given item weight.
Technically it might be that France is applying the law more than other EU countries. I think stuff over 200 eur is supposed to be attached to a EROEI number (or something along those lines), which involves registering yourself at national / EU level as some kind of "i order stuff online and my name is X". The thing is, it's only an assumption, because there's nothing on the platform that effect.
It wasn't always like this, i feel 2 years ago that problem didnt exist.
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Well it's easier to simply ask someone in a country nearby to send it to you or simply to use some mail forwarding service.
In any case as I told u since the first post, it's not worth it :). People save sth like 30 euros or so. Especially us in Europe which can have good pricing in these items.
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I'm not touching mechanical disc brakes again.
On the French ebay site, there are lots of people selling 105 shifters and hydraulic calipers for about 230 euro, which is probably going to be hard to beat.
I don't want to touch thumb shifters as they just feel prehistoric in my mind (right or wrong), and so that leaves the sensah team pro hrd but it must be very new because I'm struggling to even find it.
I got a quote on Alibaba for the Sensah team pro HRD shifters + calipers for 223 USD. Given that's before shipping, and with Shimano 105 shifters + calipers at around 230 eur in france, doesn't make sense to take on the brain damage of shipping + risk of beta testing unfinished products without customer support.
I have just installed the 12s teampros on my roadie/gravel, with grx 810 back and front . Still haven't found the time to give it a decent ride but the impression is very good. Very sharp breaking performance and crisp shifting.
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A little bit of searching for 2x11 hydraulic shifters+brakes for a build:
all in USD
Sensah Team Pro HRD shifters: $197
Sensah Team Pro HRD shifters+brakes: $226 (my impression is that basically all the hydraulic brakes on market are very much good enough)
105 shifters+brakes: $200 used if lucky, $280 NOS
You can somewhat go cheaper going for RS505 and RS685, which are a gen before R7020. Heard the brake compatibility becomes weird tho.
edit: Microshift Centos shifters: $168, for campy thumb lever lovers.
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Shimano 105 R7020 hydraulic shifters + disc calipers aren't too far away from Sensah hydros. I know people had good experience with Sensah but at the current prices that 105 7000 series is going, I'll never recommend Sensah to anyone
Here's one for US$240 - whatever coupon you may have
https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0nKGik
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Shimano 105 R7020 hydraulic shifters + disc calipers aren't too far away from Sensah hydros. I know people had good experience with Sensah but at the current prices that 105 7000 series is going, I'll never recommend Sensah to anyone
Here's one for US$240 - whatever coupon you may have
https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0nKGik
Thanks. This shows at EUR 265, but you probably had a reduced price during the first five days of August. The sale is over and a lot of items are back at higher prices. Wish I had seen the price available yesterday.
Either way it's interesting that sensah is charging so much. I've had lots of problems with their empire stuff. Their FD is garbage. I've had a RD just die. I'm probably forgetting a problem or two. They're not Shimano. And yet, they almost price like they are.
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Thanks. This shows at EUR 265, but you probably had a reduced price during the first five days of August. The sale is over and a lot of items are back at higher prices. Wish I had seen the price available yesterday.
Either way it's interesting that sensah is charging so much. I've had lots of problems with their empire stuff. Their FD is garbage. I've had a RD just die. I'm probably forgetting a problem or two. They're not Shimano. And yet, they almost price like they are.
With mechanical, indexing with Shimano is much more precise and even tightening the clamping bolt is far easier. All these Chinese groupsets place the shifter clamp bolt in a hard to reach location. Another thing I don't like about Sensah/LTwoo mechanical is that inserting the steel shift cable is really convoluted. Shimano's implementation is far more user friendly.
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Yup! Using a ball headed hex key is the only way. But even that is painful especially for LTWoo which is far worse than Sensah which itself is worse than Shimano. At least the hoods on Sensah are more pliable and soft. LTwoo's are hard.
Ditto for cable routing (shifter cable) its hard to describe but the shifter cable takes this route inside Sensah shifters : ¿
There is a very peculiar angle at which you must insert the cable and then offer prayers so that it takes the intended route.
As for indexing, my front shifter was terrible. Never got the FD shift well. I described my issues in detail elsewhere. I am fully convinced it does not handle the high cable tension as good as Shimano's. Rear one is okay but not up to the levels on even 105, forget about Ultegra. The 105 R7000 is much crispy and precise. The cable brake R7000 shifters can be had for $90-100 - unbeatable value, a no brainer.
Do it once, do it right. Don't be me. I replaced my LTwoo 10 speed groupset with Microshift Sword too.
No experience with derailleurs though since Shimano is plenty cheap anyway but as Serge mentioned I am sure they are garbage too. Definitely not worth the price even after coupons.
P.S.
Btw, the R7100 2x12 shifters aren't too expensive too at under $300 - https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806808810316.html
The full 7100 mechanical groupsets have become expensive in last few weeks. About a couple of months ago they were trending at $450 ish range. Should wait for 11/11 sale I guess.