Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: Zhu Tou on May 29, 2025, 12:05:04 PM
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In my pursuit of a relatively obscure-brand/"non-branded" carbon road bike, I'm confirmed with the following companies whether or not they offer custom-painted and/or logo-less framesets:
- Elves - YES
- Evolve - NO
- SEKA - NO
- Tavelo - YES
- Yoeleo - YES
A reply from Winspace is pending. Do you folks know of any others? I'm less open to (but will nevertheless consider) factory-direct (ex. XM Carbon Speed) framesets.
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LOL every OEM offers that. ;D
Topics are getting stupid here.
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LOL read that again
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I've read that in first, but what's the point of this thread? First you make thread about Taiwanese manufacturers on China market concentrated forum and now you're listing this. If youre looking for custom paint without branding why are you not open for OEM brands? It will be worse quality in your mind?
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To answer your questions:
- The point of this thread is to get answers to the question indicated in the first post.
- By "OEM brands", do you mean companies (Trek, Giant, etc) or do you mean the manufacturers that make frames for these companies? I suppose it doesn't matter, as my first post indicates that I'm open to both.
- If "OEM brands" = manufacturer for a bike company, then yes, I think the chances of lower quality are higher, but that's not what this post is about. That's a separate topic for a separate post, but don't worry; I now see you're the forum police so I'll be sure to check with you before posting anything.
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Dude u are just making things worse with every post. You don't even know what OEM means
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I suppose not. Educate me, please - what does Original Equipment Manufacturer mean, and how does my apparent non-understanding of its meaning make the original question (which Chinese brands offer custom-painted/logo-less framesets?) a stupid topic?
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I suppose not. Educate me, please - what does Original Equipment Manufacturer mean, and how does my apparent non-understanding of its meaning make the original question (which Chinese brands offer custom-painted/logo-less framesets?) a stupid topic?
Google is your friend
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I think the assumption that a branded frame is generally higher quality is probably incorrect. The more prominent brands used to hire third-party QC; I suspect they still do. They supposedly have dedicated lines in their factories too, but you won't be getting any of those frames unbranded.
OEM-makes a frame to customer specs, customer usually owns the designs
ODM-designs frame to sell through other brands (more or less in this case), factory owns the design
Most of the reputable factories discussed on this forum are functionally ODMs (despite the posters throwing shade about what an OEM is or isn't; but whatevs we can play loose with definitions). The top OEMs aren't selling low-volume framesets and seem to have no problems kicking out brands that don't meet their expected volumes (see the somewhat nasty divorce between Xiamen Lightweight Composites and Seka and all the leaked Seka Spear RDC stuff that resulted)
If you're talking about something like Quick Pro vs. Carbonda vs. Flybike (are they mainly an OEM or an ODM at this point? but I digress), they are all related companies, so if you get a better price on a Quick Pro with custom paint from Carbonda, I doubt there is any difference in quality.
The Same goes for Tavelo vs. Adapt (ODM who you cant buy direct from as a consumer) vs. a small brand like Oak who sells the same frameset. I highly doubt there is significant extra QC happening from a one or two man bike company.
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The Same goes for Tavelo vs. Adapt (ODM who you cant buy direct from as a consumer) vs. a small brand like Oak who sells the same frameset.
Having SC-R55 from Speeder, which is most likely a B2C of Adapt, I was amazed how good the frame is from top to bottom, you wont see it in most Western Brands. On the other hand, there was a gigantic backlash on the quality of Tavelo (which is another B2C of Adapt), so the quality aspect really depends on the budget balance of marketing, quality, and price.
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Triaero/ICAN does custom painting. If it's a fairly simple job, they will do it without any extra charge.
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I think the assumption that a branded frame is generally higher quality is probably incorrect. The more prominent brands used to hire third-party QC; I suspect they still do. They supposedly have dedicated lines in their factories too, but you won't be getting any of those frames unbranded.
OEM-makes a frame to customer specs, customer usually owns the designs
ODM-designs frame to sell through other brands (more or less in this case), factory owns the design
Most of the reputable factories discussed on this forum are functionally ODMs (despite the posters throwing shade about what an OEM is or isn't; but whatevs we can play loose with definitions). The top OEMs aren't selling low-volume framesets and seem to have no problems kicking out brands that don't meet their expected volumes (see the somewhat nasty divorce between Xiamen Lightweight Composites and Seka and all the leaked Seka Spear RDC stuff that resulted)
If you're talking about something like Quick Pro vs. Carbonda vs. Flybike (are they mainly an OEM or an ODM at this point? but I digress), they are all related companies, so if you get a better price on a Quick Pro with custom paint from Carbonda, I doubt there is any difference in quality.
The Same goes for Tavelo vs. Adapt (ODM who you cant buy direct from as a consumer) vs. a small brand like Oak who sells the same frameset. I highly doubt there is significant extra QC happening from a one or two man bike company.
Thanks; this really helps :)
Rightly or wrongly, I lean towards purchasing a frameset from a brand because of the supposed "extra" QC you mentioned. That's why I reached out to the brands/companies listed in the first post, and it seems, contrary to what you stated, that some brands (Elves, Tavelo, Yoeleo) will sell custom-painted and/or logo-less framesets, as indicated in their response e-mails. They've basically stated, "No logo or branding? No problem. Send us the color(s) you want. We'll just a few extra weeks." Others have straight-up said no, and interestingly, upcoming brand evolve (from Elitewheels) told me that while it won't do it now, they'll consider it for the future and to contact them again in a few months.
Perhaps I'm still not fully understanding the different terms, but all I was initially looking for is information on which (Chinese) brands/companies, outside of the ones I already contacted, sell framesets with choose-your-own colors and don't require branding/logos. B2B entities don't matter for obvious reasons. For whatever reasons, some people felt that understanding the term "OEM" was relevant.
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Having SC-R55 from Speeder, which is most likely a B2C of Adapt, I was amazed how good the frame is from top to bottom, you wont see it in most Western Brands. On the other hand, there was a gigantic backlash on the quality of Tavelo (which is another B2C of Adapt), so the quality aspect really depends on the budget balance of marketing, quality, and price.
+1 for the SC-R55D. Amazing finish.
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Having SC-R55 from Speeder, which is most likely a B2C of Adapt, I was amazed how good the frame is from top to bottom, you wont see it in most Western Brands. On the other hand, there was a gigantic backlash on the quality of Tavelo (which is another B2C of Adapt), so the quality aspect really depends on the budget balance of marketing, quality, and price.
Honestly, I have no idea what Speeder's relationship is with Tavelo and Adapt. I also have no idea what the scope is of what these companies does and if they operate their own factories or are more like Seka. Speeder appears to be a component brand at this point, with their forks showing up on other brands' bikes labeled as "Speeder" in spec sheets.
For me, the clearest examples are Flybike (OEM/ODM for large customers), Carbonda (ODM for B2C and smaller customers), and Quick Pro (OBM).
Regardless, if I wanted some help bringing a product to market or were buying an unbranded frameset, I would be comfortable with Speeder or any of the Flybike companies.
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Perhaps I'm still not fully understanding the different terms, but all I was initially looking for is information on which (Chinese) brands/companies, outside of the ones I already contacted, sell framesets with choose-your-own colors and don't require branding/logos. B2B entities don't matter for obvious reasons. For whatever reasons, some people felt that understanding the term "OEM" was relevant.
Almost every brand/manufacturer with dedicated frame thread on this forum provides frames without paintjob: Velobuild, Hygge, Hongfu, Dengfu, Speeder, Lightbicycle, XM Carbon Speed, you name it.
Honestly, I have no idea what Speeder's relationship is with Tavelo and Adapt. I also have no idea what the scope is of what these companies does and if they operate their own factories or are more like Seka. Speeder appears to be a component brand at this point, with their forks showing up on other brands' bikes labeled as "Speeder" in spec sheets.
Speeder and Tavelo, if not the same direct seller of Adapt frames, are at least very closely related to Adapt. What differs them, is that Tavelo is substantially more expensive, yet the finish of the frame is worse, as was indicated by 'bike mechanic-engineers' youtube bubble, the tolerances are worse and you need to get a file in your hands and get the job done right. With Speeder there were zero (or very minor) complaints regarding the frame or finishing kit and I can confirm the frame has top end quality.
A large chunk of Tavelo price comes from marketing expenses (influencer coverage) and target audience (westerners, who can simply pay more than the rest) at the expense of frame quality. Same goes for Seka, Winspace etc. That being said, more 'visible' brands more often than not provide worse 'value for money', even though they market themselves as 'value for money'.
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Only a handful of YouTubers, including myself, have reviewed Tavelo bikes. Anecdotally my frame (Arow) in particular was problem free. Same with the customers and athletes I've spoken to privately.
No one knows Tavelo's exact costs per frame. But if frames only cost $200-$400 to manufacture and a brand sends out 5 frames to content creators, how much then are their marketing expenses in this particular scenario? Maybe $2000 including shipping? That's the cost of a single frameset. Spending just 2 minutes on Tavelo's Instagram page highlights the fact that the overwhelming majority of their marketing is supporting professional race teams, not influencers. Just like your favorite western brand. Because it's proven to work.
I'm not sure when this moral high ground against companies using YouTubers and race teams to promote products started in this forum. Chinertown lives in a total vacuum separate from the average consumer who wants nothing to do with anything we discuss in here. The frustration against content creators I can understand. What is supposed to be an unbiased video turns into a marketing commercial. But you'd have a more difficult time convincing a consumer to invest in a Tavelo Arow that's been marked up 200% versus a Tarmac SL8 that's been marked up probably 500%
Regardless of someone like myself advocating $600 TanTan frames, $2000 Tavelos, and $4000 western brands, someone will take issue. Every consumable we purchase has marketing costs baked into it.
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I think many commenters on bike-related topics, not just here, focus too much on the cost of raw materials when calculating a "fair" retail price. A year ago, the head of Factor sat down with a tech editor from Escape Collective to discuss costs. The raw materials estimate was approximately $365 USD, but the total cost to deliver a bike to regional distribution hubs was closer to $2,000 USD. Once you strip away the expenses that most Chinese brands and ODMs don't incur, such as aero development, marketing budgets, and the cost of freight shipping. You get down to about $1,500 USD. Let's say rounding up was involved; for the sake of being critical, let's deduct another 10-20%. $ 1,200-$1,350 USD is probably closer to the loaded cost that a brand would pay for a WT-level bike made at one of the higher-end factories (including the factory's profit).
A ~3x markup is standard for manufactured goods with complicated supply chains and retail involvement, so it's not surprising that brands like Factor and Specialized are not swimming in profits. I don't know if others would consider the Tavelo Arow or Quick Pro to be up to that standard, but looking at costs does make the prices these brands are asking seems fair to me once you add in a few hundred bucks for marketing, distribution, paying the people that work at the brands to provide customer service, b2c sales, customer engagement for product development etc.
Whether or not the incremental cost of the higher-end bikes makes a difference to you is a different question. Regardless, I am very grateful that after 20 years, some of these companies still choose to work directly with consumers.
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I think many commenters on bike-related topics, not just here, focus too much on the cost of raw materials when calculating a "fair" retail price. A year ago, the head of Factor sat down with a tech editor from Escape Collective to discuss costs. The raw materials estimate was approximately $365 USD, but the total cost to deliver a bike to regional distribution hubs was closer to $2,000 USD. Once you strip away the expenses that most Chinese brands and ODMs don't incur, such as aero development, marketing budgets, and the cost of freight shipping. You get down to about $1,500 USD. Let's say rounding up was involved; for the sake of being critical, let's deduct another 10-20%. $ 1,200-$1,350 USD is probably closer to the loaded cost that a brand would pay for a WT-level bike made at one of the higher-end factories (including the factory's profit).
A ~3x markup is standard for manufactured goods with complicated supply chains and retail involvement, so it's not surprising that brands like Factor and Specialized are not swimming in profits. I don't know if others would consider the Tavelo Arow or Quick Pro to be up to that standard, but looking at costs does make the prices these brands are asking seems fair to me once you add in a few hundred bucks for marketing, distribution, paying the people that work at the brands to provide customer service, b2c sales, customer engagement for product development etc.
Whether or not the incremental cost of the higher-end bikes makes a difference to you is a different question. Regardless, I am very grateful that after 20 years, some of these companies still choose to work directly with consumers.
This is a fantastic breakdown without the personal feelings attached. Something I could work on myself truthfully. Thanks @Sakizashi !
If we put pricing aside, yes the cost of goods are increasing in every industry, we are getting closer to peak cycling. Plenty of solid options on the market within every budget now. Wheels, frame, groupsets, even power meters. Both the TanTan X68 and GR201 threads are prime examples.
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https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,6041.0.html
You can check out my posts, we can provide custom painting