Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: curlyfry on May 27, 2014, 04:53:58 PM
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This is my first post here so first let me say thank you for the information that has been passed around already. I have purchased a full sus 29er from Leo at www.yoeleobike.com; and have had a great experience working with him. Frame arrived exactly 6 days after ordering.
Overall I am very happy with the frame (have not ridden it yet, still waiting on crank and shifter) but I am a little concerned about some play in the rearend.
If you see in the pictures there is some space in the linkage/bearing joint at the back of the rear triangle. Is this space normal for the frames? Has anyone else had play in the rear end? I can't seem to pinpoint exactly where it is but I am guessing it is in that junction as I do not get the play when holding the chainstay and rocking the wheel back and forth; yet getting at all other times?
Also, has anyone added polymer bushings to tighten up this space?
I do not have 4 posts yet and the pics are too large to upload with restriction. The links below should show each side.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByQ6CR6jHZpjSFRmWGxrS3N5c28/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByQ6CR6jHZpjZ0Q4cmwxR2JyRHM/edit?usp=sharing
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Hey curlyfry.. Sorry about that. Carbon_Dude has been on me for a few weeks now to upgrade the image capabilities of the forum.
In the meantime, just use an image hosting site like imgur, which is what I used to upload your pics below.
(http://i.imgur.com/vMrjhRB.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/7tNGHQW.png)
Also, your link was a dead link, here's the site: http://www.yoeleo.com/
First I've heard of them. Will add them to the list of Chinese carbon vendors: http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,37.0.html
As for your issue.. I personally don't have a full suspension so I'm not the best person to comment on it, but I will say that it definitely doesn't look right to me, and I'd be concerned too.
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First, welcome to the forum Curlyfry!
Second, I'd like to see a full picture of the frame to know which model it is. The website SN linked to doesn't show a FS MTB frame.
Third, I just took a look at the rear pivots on my IP-036 and the gaps look similar to your picture so I think you don't have much to worry about. If you haven't already, I would recommend you pull apart all the pivots, re-grease everything and reassemble making sure you torque all the bolts to the values printed on the hardware.
Let us know if there is anything we can do to help you with your build.
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Hey guys thanks for the responses. The link didn't work because I put the ; too close to the address. Here is the link to the purchasing site http://www.yoeleobike.com/ and here is the link to the frame http://www.yoeleobike.com/29er-frame-carbon-mtb-suspension.html .
I have been in the process of pulling all of the pivots apart and greasing, it does not seem like a lot of play but I think I figured out what I am feeling. When I pull the pivot apart the bearing moves ever so slightly (maybe a mm) inside the seat stay. I will put it back together and re-torque it to spec and see what happens. This is only while the bike is on the stand, I have not had a chance to ride it (still waiting on a couple parts) so that will be the real test of whether or not it feels right. I'm not talking a lot of play, just more than I expected.
I should have it built up this weekend and will post a build update and pics.
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Yes, that is the same frame as what we are calling an IP-036 or FM-036 from XMIplay or Hongfu. Yes, once the bike is built you may feel a very slight amount of play in the rear suspension if you feel for it or if you pick the bike up and bounce it a bit on the tires. What I feel on mine is similar to what I felt when I had my Specialized Epic 26er.
I don't feel any odd amount of play when riding, although there is a little creak here and there when applying some lateral loading while at the same time pushing on the pedal during a downstroke. Not a lot but it noticeable. Not sure if I had spent $2,800 on a frame if I would have zero play and zero creaks, I seriously doubt it, it's a mountain bike with carbon layers and simple pivots. Although the pivots have sealed bearings, they are nothing fancy.
While riding my IP-036 everything feels very smooth and the suspension works really well so I don't worry about a little play or a little creak, having FS totally changes the ride and building a FS Carbon 29er has been very rewarding.
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I know the IP-036 is only a ~$700 frame so I'm willing to overlook looser tolerances and other minor things about the frame that I could knit pick. Not only could the Chinese vendors do a better job of marketing, which seems to be something that us Americans have cornered the market on, they could improve the quality to the point where you couldn't tell the difference between an IP-036 and say a Trek Superfly. I'd be willing to spend 25% more for a Chinese Carbon frame that had tighter tolerances, a better paint job, choice of graphics, and more options such as deletion of the F/D mount.
The vendors are getting there but they still have a long way to go. Rather than do those things I mentioned above, they create a product that in it's basic form does everything a frame 4X the cost will do, but has some shortcomings, at a rock bottom price. Yes, price is king but there are many like myself who would be willing to spend a little more if it meant getting a really good product.
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Interesting points SN and CD.
The vendors are getting there but they still have a long way to go. Rather than do those things I mentioned above, they create a product that in it's basic form does everything a frame 4X the cost will do, but has some shortcomings, at a rock bottom price. Yes, price is king but there are many like myself who would be willing to spend a little more if it meant getting a really good product.
And this is where the hardtail options really stand out imo. There is virtually no difference between between the 057 or 256 and other big name brand carbon hardtails, but the full suspensions are a different story. Not saying they aren't a screaming value because they are and I plan on getting one myself, but I am saying that there is a difference between a high end full suspenesion name brand carbon frame and the 036. Enough of a difference to matter or that we should care? Probably not - Not for me, at least. $700 compared to 2-3k is a huge savings and will enable me to make the rest of the bike soooo much better that the small differences between the chiner and the name brand frame will inconsequential. Besides, I've read a lot of ride reports on these 036 frames and never once has there been a complaint about the function of the rear suspension. Quite the opposite, actually. All great reviews. You may want to check into upgrading the the shock mount bushing/bearing though as there are many guys that say it's quite a worthy and noticeable upgrade.
Carbon Dude - Your thought about the Chinese vendors offering some higher end options is an interesting one. Makes me think of my request for them to build a RIP9 RDO replica and sell it simply for half price = Market cornered. So I certainly agree that there is a sweet spot that still hasn't been hit yet with the full suspension offerings (like I said, they got the hardtails down) but I guess we should remember that the full suspension frames haven't really been out that long. Like SN said, one of them will get it right and it will be fun to watch it unfold and maybe even be a part of it right here on chinertown.
In summary, my humble opinion is that they definitely need some "Americanized" marketing (nice website, social media and forum marketing, branding , graphics, etc..) and offer a targeted but sufficient product line:
29er hardtail frame
27.5 hardtail frame
Fat bike frame
2 popular widths in 29er rims
2 popular widths in 27.5 rims
2 popular widths in fat bike rims
A slightly higher end and better made 29er full suspension
A slightly higher end and better made 27.5 full suspension
Once all of those are in place and in market..
An all-mountain (slacker geo, beefier) 29er hardtail
An all-mountain (slacker geo, beefier) 27.5 hardtail
An all-mountain (slacker geo, beefier) 29er full-suspension
An all-mountain (slacker geo, beefier) 27.5er full-suspension
This is kinda fun. There needs to be a video game like railroad tycoon or something... "Chindor Tycoon"?? ;D
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CI, I agree with most of what you are saying. I also started with a hardtail frame because of the simplicity of not having to worry about pivots, rear shock, cable routing across the two frame components, chain length variation, and so on. I built my IP-057 and rode it for about a year, while also looking at adding a 29er FS bike to replace my old FS 26er. Originally, I built the IP-057 because I didn't want the extra maintenance of a FS bike, however, once I got into building my own bike, and purchasing everything I needed to maintain it, jumping up to a FS model was much easier. I don't like paying the high cost of having a LBS maintain my bike which is what I was doing to some extent prior to building a Chiner. Now, I don't think twice about working on my bikes and even enjoy doing so.
I rode several different models of FS bikes, some with a plush ride, some with a very firm ride. I also had the opportunity to ride an IP-036 that another independent local vendor built and was showing at one of the bike races. It rode well so I had luxury of being able to compare a FS Chiner to other bikes in the market. While I say there are shortcomings in the IP-036 they really are very minor and the big brands only do slightly better, not 4X better.
I've put about 60-70 rides on my IP-057 and found it to be very reliable so I had no second thoughts about adding a FS Chiner to the stable. Again, I'm being very critical of the IP-036 in my previous post, it really is about 95% as good as anything I could buy from the big brands, and while I enjoy riding the hardtail, if I only had one bike, today I would say it would be the FS Chiner because it can do it all and with a bit more comfort.
Guess we've gotten a bit off topic because my last couple of posts have nothing to do with bearing spacing :). Because everyone loves pictures, here is another pic of my FS Chiner .
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/S2k_Dude/Carbon%20FS%2029er/ip-036.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/S2k_Dude/media/Carbon%20FS%2029er/ip-036.jpg.html)
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I'd say it is still on topic, as Sitar said my main concern was comparing the frame with what has been experienced. I greased everything and torqued to spec. Still has some play but I hopped on the bike (for a little down hill push bike experience) and from what I can tell without pushing on pedals everything seems buttoned up fine. If I do notice it while pedaling it appears as if you could put a very thin plastic shim inside the lip that holds the bearing in the seat stay. As long as the shim only touched the outer race of the bearing then it would not hold everything together nicely. I think what I am really feeling, though, is simply the play in a single pivot design as CD said he noticed in is Epic. After riding my wife's Mach 429 AL I am used to a very stiff rear end.
Here is a pic as it stands now. Still waiting on a shifter and Race Face Next SL 1x Crank.
(http://i.imgur.com/40tmOWt.jpg)
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curly, your build looks like it is coming along nicely. Looks like you got some brake lines to shorten. As has been discussed before, there is a procedure to shorten the line without the need to bleed the line afterward. Also, I see it looks like your ran the rear brake line externally. That's the same way Scott did it on the Spark, I ran mine internally. Is your rear shock a remote model?
On my ride this afternoon, I heard a bit more creaking on the first half of my ride, but the second half of my ride the frame was silent, no creaking whatsoever. I'm wondering if some of the water and mud I rode through caused some creaking, it was also really humid on this ride.
I may consider adding some plastic shims in between each of the pivot bearings and the frame. McMaster-Carr sells plastic shims in packs of 10 in various thicknesses. I don't think I need the shim to fill the gap as much as reduce friction and keep any carbon-carbon wear from happening.
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Sorry to restart and old thread but this is what I am noticing. There is play in the rear about 1mm. It is only detectable if you put the rear tire on the ground and grab it and move it side to side. If the bike is the air and you grab the tire and move it side to side. There is NO play.
Where and what pivot mount bushings did everyone get? I have RWC for the rear shock.
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1mm or less of play is about what my frame has had since day one. I don't really notice if it has gotten any worse and only notice it when I am not on the bike and I lift up the rear of the bike and set it back down. When riding the bike feels as good as, or better, than when I first built my IP-036.
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I can't say I have noticed it riding but because of the O57 rear thru axle coming loose before I am constantly checking the 036 if there is play in the rear end. I can hear the movement and see it in the rear disk brake as it moves side to side in the caliper.
I guess some movement is to be expected, I just was concerned and wondered if there was any solution to fix it IE new pivot bearings like I did for the rear shock.
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Admittedly, the IP-036 is not the stiffest FS frame design out there. I can surely feel some flex, although my wheels also add to what I see or feel when pushing on the bike laterally. It's not bad, and it's not so much flex that when my back tire is low on air, like it was at the end of yesterday's ride, I can easily feel there is a problem, the flex I feel increases considerably. However, once I aired the tire up, made sure the sealant was doing its job, the frame felt fine again.
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Sorry to restart and old thread but this is what I am noticing. There is play in the rear about 1mm. It is only detectable if you put the rear tire on the ground and grab it and move it side to side. If the bike is the air and you grab the tire and move it side to side. There is NO play.
Where and what pivot mount bushings did everyone get? I have RWC for the rear shock.
I'm glad that I found this thread because this is exactly what is happening with my bike but I'd say I have even more than 1mm of play in the rear end (the play is really bad when the bike is on the ground) I do not see where anyone posted the exact fix or what to do or buy to resolve it? Can someone let me know ASAP.
Thanks,
Gabby
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After I received my frame, I pulled all pivots to grease and inspect them and noticed that on the back triangle only one spacer/washer was present on either side. The bearing is centered and without a spacer or washer on the opposite side, the frame will rub and you will have movement on those back pivots. I picked up some washers from the local hardware store...problem solved.
I would bet that the movement and creaking people are experiencing is caused by only one washer on the back pivots.
Edit: forgot to mention I went with steel washers, not nylon washers. I didn't want them to compress or distort around the bearing races.
(http://i.imgur.com/12EmK4W.png)
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Sorry to restart and old thread but this is what I am noticing. There is play in the rear about 1mm. It is only detectable if you put the rear tire on the ground and grab it and move it side to side. If the bike is the air and you grab the tire and move it side to side. There is NO play.
Where and what pivot mount bushings did everyone get? I have RWC for the rear shock.
I'm glad that I found this thread because this is exactly what is happening with my bike but I'd say I have even more than 1mm of play in the rear end (the play is really bad when the bike is on the ground) I do not see where anyone posted the exact fix or what to do or buy to resolve it? Can someone let me know ASAP.
Thanks,
Gabby
I picked up my bike from the shop and they told me the spacer was on the wrong side of the bearing. They swapped it out and the play seems like it is almost gone but not 100% gone. The black bolt is now tight and does not spin. I plan on riding tomorrow.
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I think having a washer/spacer on both sides of the bearing is the solution. The frame is going to rub on the side of the pivot without a spacer keeping them apart. You do not want these pivots sliding back and forth on the pivot pins which will cause excessive wear.
Apparently these frames are being manufactured with only one spacer on each bearing, which IMHO is a design flaw or poor QC. THese pivots need a spacer on both sides of the bearing to prevent frame rub and side to side movement.
This is what mine looks like with the new washer on the inside of the bearing. You can see the thick black OEM spacer on the outside.
(http://i.imgur.com/VECuQYKl.jpg)
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Guys, do you have specs on the washers you've added ? My IP036 has lots of aluminum washers and I was thinking about replacing with DELRIM or TEFLON/PTFE washers.
Please share if you have any info.
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So far I have not bothered installing any washers on my -036, when I tightened up the bolts that mount the shock I got all the play out of the system so I see no need to do anything else on my frame for the time being.
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I just used some cheap 1/4 inch washers from Home Depot, they are about 1.5mm thick:
Anything to keep the carbon from touching will work.
(http://i.imgur.com/oy8mpdJ.jpg)