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Other Resources => After The Ride => Topic started by: karstenhorn on September 28, 2016, 03:28:50 AM

Title: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on September 28, 2016, 03:28:50 AM
As the winter period is approaching rapidly here in Scandinavia with prolonged periods where it is no fun to be riding out in the snow/heavy rain/stormy weather, I have decided to invest in a home cycle trainer to cover those periods where actual cycling is not possible. I was wandering if anyone here are using a home smart trainer system and especially the software part for the smart system. I would love to find a software package that support BOTH MTB as well as road riding. Searching the internet I have so far only found  https://www.trainerroad.com/ and that requires me to purchase an ANT+ dongle to my MAC just to check it out as it apparently do not support BT. Any experience with Trainer Road or any other smart software package?

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: Lanz on September 28, 2016, 10:46:57 AM
Trainerroad is great, I was using it last fall to spring and quite enjoyed it. There are a lot of structured programs for mtb, so I'd recommend to pick some that fits you most and that stick to it. Occasional sessions will not give such effect except the suffering from indoor riding  ;D
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on September 28, 2016, 11:10:16 AM
Trainerroad is great, I was using it last fall to spring and quite enjoyed it. There are a lot of structured programs for mtb, so I'd recommend to pick some that fits you most and that stick to it. Occasional sessions will not give such effect except the suffering from indoor riding  ;D

Thanks for the feedback on trainer road and my main goal is just that, follow a realistic training program where I can log my progress(hopefully). Do you happen to know if it is also possible to ride sections via link to a big screen, both MTB and road? It could be fun to ride some longer trails a boring Saturday afternoon and have it presented on a big screen in front of you :D

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: Lanz on September 29, 2016, 04:39:21 AM
You can run their app in a 'compact' mode, so only the panel with intervals will be visible on the down part of the screen an put a video with your favorite race/movie in the same time. I was watching the world cup races this way.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on October 03, 2016, 09:28:22 AM
I'm interested too. Now that I've spend a few week training on my road bike I understand how road-type training will benefit my MTB performance. And indoor trainer is just that. I used to use an elliptical trainer but that's not the same muscles involved.

So, reviewing TrainerRoad, it looks like a good tool. DC Rainmaker blogger likes it, and he's a reference to me! he's got multiple articles on it, here is one:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/02/weekend-wrap-up-trainerroad-cold-dc.html

I found that you can also hook up TrainerRoad together with Sufferfest, which is motivating video.
https://thesufferfest.com/collections/cycling-videos/products/elements-of-style

But then, you need all of that:
- a road bike (I doubt you can use an indoor trainer with a MTB)
- an indoor trainer
- sensors on your bike: speed at the minimum. ANT+ or Smart BT (connects to iPhone)
- TrainerRoad subscription
- Sufferfest subscription

That's a lot for training in the winter! But I consider this  ::)
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 04, 2016, 01:42:09 AM
I like DC Rainmaker as well - He do have some vice down to earth comments about stuff :D

I have ordered a TACX Bushito smart trainer that I will use together with my Garmin Edge(can control the trainer via BT and ANT+). Clearly Trainer Road is the best trainer sw, however as I use Garmin Connect, I do also have all the sensors readily at hand and initially I will check out if that is sufficiently to keep track of my training programme. For the recreational part I will use the BKOOL simmulator as it is clearly the absolutely best cycle simulator and the fact that you in this simulator can ride 1000s of MTB trails, both in live video as well as in 3D. You can even import your own ridden tracks from Strava or Garmin and convert them into 3D sessions in the BKOOL sw package. Also, if you have camera system like GO-PRO or Contour that stores meta-data from a GPS, you can create live video sessions from your favourite MTB trail and ride it again and again. The BKOOL simulator will control your smart trainer with regards to resistance directly in order to integrate fully with the track you are following in the simulator and all information like power, speed, HR and cadence is fully integrated as well. My Garmin will then record all the same data in parallel and I can then use that for the analysing part of my session.

All the Smart trainers that I have been looking at, can be used with a MTB as well, only challenge is your rear axle system but again, most trainers you can buy adapters for just that. As a matter of fact I will use my old Specialized FSR MTB for my trainer as the primary bicycle.

For the smart trainers, TACX seems to get the best feedback on the internet when it comes to the mid-range trainers. DC Rainmaker as a matter of fact highlighted the TACX Vortex as the best buy in that class. The Bushito I bought is one class up from that and the only reason why I bought that and not the Vortex is the fact that it can simulate steeper climbs for a heavier guy like me.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 05, 2016, 11:53:20 AM
Another quick update, I got the TACX trainer today and the installation went smooth an no issues connecting to Iphone app or my Edge 1000. I will go for a testride tomorrow :D

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/406E772B-0EFE-4DB1-AB2A-D168D6BF902E_zpsg71stw3b.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/406E772B-0EFE-4DB1-AB2A-D168D6BF902E_zpsg71stw3b.jpg.html)

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/A7C6D8AF-52FC-4544-B4BC-5C1B1405E070_zpsibn2rle4.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/A7C6D8AF-52FC-4544-B4BC-5C1B1405E070_zpsibn2rle4.jpg.html)

There was absolutely no issues fitting my old MTB to the trainer using a real trainer tire also from TACX.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on October 05, 2016, 05:08:06 PM
...you can create live video sessions from your favourite MTB trail and ride it again and again...
This is a new dimension in home training... Recording a track without mud, and riding it multiple times during the winter :)
If you can make a video, please let us know how it went, and the app/hardware stack needed.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 06, 2016, 03:13:39 AM
...you can create live video sessions from your favourite MTB trail and ride it again and again...
This is a new dimension in home training... Recording a track without mud, and riding it multiple times during the winter :)
If you can make a video, please let us know how it went, and the app/hardware stack needed.

Unfortunately on all the video I have from my resent MTB rides have been with disabled GPS meta data collection as it reduces the the battery time dramatically. However, on my next ride I will experiment with it for sure. Until then I will try to upload all my Garmin TCX files in order for them to be converted into 3D video and after that integrated into the BKOOL simulator.  If I make them public it would be possible to share rides within a community or even ride them together live. During a live session, there will be the possibility to have voice chat during the ride.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: Lanz on October 06, 2016, 03:33:35 AM
I have ordered a TACX Bushito smart trainer that I will use together with my Garmin Edge(can control the trainer via BT and ANT+).

Congrats! I have a question about Bushido, recently I thought about moving to Bushido smart from my old Satori, but I wasn't able to figure out from the reviews, does the new Bushido have built-in "powermeter"? I mean do they provide at least some power estimations? And the second thing which I was interested in - how realistic is the climb simulation in Bushidos?
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 06, 2016, 07:49:29 AM
I have ordered a TACX Bushito smart trainer that I will use together with my Garmin Edge(can control the trainer via BT and ANT+).

Congrats! I have a question about Bushido, recently I though about moving to Bushido smart from my old Satori, but I wasn't able to figure out from the reviews, does the new Bushido have built-in "powermeters"? I mean do they provide at least some power estimations? And the second thing which I was interested in - how realistic is the climb simulation in Bushidos?

I have only just played around a little during setup yesterday but yes, there is a "power meter" based on your body weight, speed etc and it seems to work ok  maybe a little on the low side. Regarding climb simulation, I can tell you more that after I'm done with Alp D'huez later today :D

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on October 19, 2016, 02:22:51 AM
As we get deeper into Fall I look more seriously into the Home trainer. I still plan to ride in the rain (I realize that road riding in the rain is actually a lot of fun, slower but still very nice) but there will be days where it will be freezing or be completely dark (and dangerous even with lights).

So, I'm tempted with the Fluid trainers. As simple as can be, no electronics, quiet with resistance simply modulated by your speed. I'd use it with a training plan (TrainerRoad or Zwift). I already get a cadence meter and a speed meter, so I really don't need a fancy trainer.

Am I missing anything? Do you think that a Smart trainer is really a must? Any comparison between TR or Zwift?
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: Lanz on October 19, 2016, 03:35:35 AM
I have a simplest and non-smart Tacx Satori and it works pretty fine for me in a pack with TrainerRoad. The only thing I'd like to have is the powermeter (but it has nothing related to the trainer). All other trainer options are cool, but you know...whistles and bells, you can still do a lot of work even with a basic functionality.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on October 19, 2016, 05:08:48 AM
I tend to go out by any weather, mainly rain and mud here in Belgium.
However filming some of my usual trails ( sunny obviously ) and riding them virtually at any hour could be fun.
I didn't research the hardware/software list needed, but this clearly smells like a new money hole :o
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on October 19, 2016, 07:57:48 AM
It's not just about rain and mud. It can, I've seen places looking like a swimming pool (10 m long, as wide as the trail, up to 30-40 cm deep). No fun.

Then, it's about available time too. With 2 young kids it can be handy to get an indoor ride in the evening, when I can't leave them alone at home. Sometimes, specifically in the winter, it's too dark outside apart from lunch rides. Weekends are busy!

Looking at cost, here is my rough estimation:
- A basic but still good quality Home Trainer: 200€
- Accessories (floor mat, front wheel stand, fan, etc...): 50€
- Rear tire (in case you don't have a road type tire): 20€
- Sensors (Speed, cadence. You need it unless you invest in an expensive home trainer): 60€

That's already 330€.

Then, TrainerRoad is 12€/month, Zwift is 10€/month. That's about 50€/year as you don't need it all through the year.

I own an elliptical indoor "bike" (which is not a bike). Using it last winter, I've seen a lot of benefit but this is closer to running then cycling. I can see how a Home Trainer could help me to be in shape 2 month earlier and then enjoy a longer period on the bike as soon as the weather is getting better.

Sounds nice, sounds like a new money hole indeed  ;D
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 19, 2016, 11:53:53 AM
I have now had my Home trainer for 14 days and so far it has been raining every single day since I got it so.............. Its been a huge success in many aspects, not only do you train more effectively than trying to get around in rain/mud/heavy winds. You can also jump on the system any time of the day, either early or late - No long transport time, its flat out cycling from minute one. Do I miss real cycling hell yes and this will never be the same as wind in the face, however as a combination with live cycling it can raise your actual level of strength quite a bit.

For all of you that are considering a home trainer I seriously recommend to buy a SMART trainer, they are not that expensive and the benefit from having your trainer software controlling the resistance of your trainer is mandatory I would say if you want to do some serious Watt training. Its also plain fun to upload your favourite track file to the software host and 12 hours later there is generated a 3D environment with all the slopes/resistance incorporated. It is just to jump on the bike, start the trainer software and enjoy your favourite ride.

What I would recommend based on my experience so far:

- A smart trainer for a start - This is the middle class trainer as recommended by DCrainmaker
  https://www.bike24.com/1.php?menu=1000%2C5%2C69;search=tacx+vortex;content=8;product=99376
  It will give you speed, cadence and power so no other sensors are required.
- A trainer mat
- A specific trainer tyre for your wheel size - They are quieter and will last longer
- An ANT+ FEC usb dongle for your laptop/desktop in order to connect with your trainer
- I'm using the Bkool Cycle simulator for the fun-/recreational part and I'm using the TACX IOS app for my power Watt training.
- If you have a Garmin 520/820/1000 you can control your trainer directly from your cycle computer

All in all maybe a few bucks for an initial investment but in the long run I do believe that the benefit will pay it back soon. I must say that I'm very happy with my purchase and in 14 days I have raised my FTP score about 10 percent. One thing you will have to keep in mind is the fact that unless you buy a very expensive trainer with build in free wheeling engine, there are no free riding on the trainer. You will have to pedal ALL the time and I can see, based on history from my Garmin, that I burn 25% more calories in 1 hour compared to normal outside riding.

I have been a good boy :)
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/Bkool_zpsefdrcu0w.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/Bkool_zpsefdrcu0w.jpg.html)

My setup:
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/6EA00D2B-56A5-41B6-BAA3-E286262E198D_zps5vr6sxjc.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/6EA00D2B-56A5-41B6-BAA3-E286262E198D_zps5vr6sxjc.jpg.html)

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/22776CA7-21D5-448F-AC00-C0D17551B20A_zpsz7jmxbtl.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/22776CA7-21D5-448F-AC00-C0D17551B20A_zpsz7jmxbtl.jpg.html)

A rainy Saturday having fun with the wife in front of the big screen   :D
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/BD7628AC-88CF-404E-BA6D-2F0B1484B857_zpsfzr1woxv.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/BD7628AC-88CF-404E-BA6D-2F0B1484B857_zpsfzr1woxv.jpg.html)

https://youtu.be/yt6H10db8wA (https://youtu.be/yt6H10db8wA)

My best investment in a very long time and I look forward to the heavy snowstorms outside now.

Karsten

 
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on October 19, 2016, 03:04:46 PM
Thanks karstenhorn for this detailed feedback! Very interesting.
I think one key point I need is to get a training plan incorporated. I don't want to be messing around and get bored. Your setup looks very fun!

And for those using Strava, I just noticed this: "Premium cyclists get two free months of Zwift every year." Pretty cool. If you use indoor trainer 4 month a year, that's only 2 month of subscription to pay.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on October 19, 2016, 03:13:32 PM
...upload your favourite track file to the software host...
You mean a gpx file of a previous ride?

Very interesting read, thanks!
In 5ºC I'll probably reconsider indoor training :)
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 20, 2016, 12:49:57 AM
Thanks karstenhorn for this detailed feedback! Very interesting.
I think one key point I need is to get a training plan incorporated. I don't want to be messing around and get bored. Your setup looks very fun!

And for those using Strava, I just noticed this: "Premium cyclists get two free months of Zwift every year." Pretty cool. If you use indoor trainer 4 month a year, that's only 2 month of subscription to pay.

Initially I was also very interested in Zwift and I did create a trial account. However I found their software very unstable and I was kicked off randomly(I use a Macbook). Based on the feedback in their support forum I'm not the only one having the same issues and to be honest, I HATE when software like this does not work....... I managed to play around with their training plans and to be honest not impressed at all. I rate Zwift the same as Bkool, 90% fun and 10% serious training. Again, the only system that I have found so far focusing on serious training plans is Trainerroad (Also recommended by DCRainmaker).

I don't use Strava at all so I don't know how well connected they are but in general all the software I have tried do advertise full connectivity to Strava.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: Lanz on October 20, 2016, 12:55:33 AM
I've read somewhere that Strava soon will end cooperation with Zwift, so you'll gonna pay for it.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 20, 2016, 01:08:15 AM
...upload your favourite track file to the software host...
You mean a gpx file of a previous ride?

Very interesting read, thanks!
In 5ºC I'll probably reconsider indoor training :)

In Bkool you can use any of the common fitness file types like GPX, TCX, FIT etc. Bkool is the only system I have found where you can upload your own completed track and then ride it afterwards where resistance is controlled by the trainer software. The 3D part is fully generic but the slope part is very very realistic. If you have a camera on your bike that also stores GPS data in the metadata, you can create a full video track of your favourite track :D

Here is one of my favourite "racetrack" just around my home and it took 20 min for their system to generate a nice 3D track and it is very realistic indeed.

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/Bkool_linderum%20turen_zpsog1brow2.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/Bkool_linderum%20turen_zpsog1brow2.jpg.html)

If you buy a TACX smart trainer and you have one of the newest Garmins, you can as a matter of fact ride a previous completed track directly out of your bike computer. However, there are lots of spikes in the metadata of a ride and the resistance will jump all over the scale and making it impossible to ride. When you upload the same track to Bkool, they are smoothing out the metadata and it works just perfect.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on October 20, 2016, 02:03:54 AM
That's good information! But now I'm even more confused  ;D

I thought that BKOOL was a package (trainer + software) but I see that you can use their software with any trainer. So it' another option to Zwift and TrainerRoad. I see a free version and a Premium for 8€/month. The cheapest of all 3.
You mention Fun with BKool. That's what I need.

Anyway, the last piece I need now to evaluate the software is... a trainer :)
I was pretty set on a basic trainer, but BKool seems to require a smart trainer to get the real benefits. I was very tempted with the fluid trainers (for their simplicity and silence), but those are not smart...
Undecided!
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 20, 2016, 02:33:03 AM
That's good information! But now I'm even more confused  ;D

I thought that BKOOL was a package (trainer + software) but I see that you can use their software with any trainer. So it' another option to Zwift and TrainerRoad. I see a free version and a Premium for 8€/month. The cheapest of all 3.
You mention Fun with BKool. That's what I need.

Anyway, the last piece I need now to evaluate the software is... a trainer :)
I was pretty set on a basic trainer, but BKool seems to require a smart trainer to get the real benefits. I was very tempted with the fluid trainers (for their simplicity and silence), but those are not smart...
Undecided!

Yes Bkool do produce their own smart trainer now but they actually started out with the Bkool cycle simulator long time before smart trainers. Their simulator is fully compatible with any SMART trainer supporting ANT+ FEC connections. As a matter of fact I do not like trier trainers due to the fact that it is the weight of the rider creating the contact with the roller. In practical that means that you cannot stand in your pedals sprinting or pushing hard up a steep climb. TACX smart trainers are all fully compliant with Bkool.

Look at it this way, you can buy a cheap basic trainer setup for around 200€, that setup will ONLY give you some "dumb" resistance and you will have to get hold of all the other sensors separately. If you don't have speed, cadence or Power, you will have no measurement of your progress. In my opinion the most important sensor is the power sensor, that gives you a clear view of your training progress as well as being a mandatory tool for controlling your training sessions.

On the other hand, spend a little over 100€ more and you will have ALL the sensors build in and show me a Power sensor system that you can get for 100€? - Honestly I think it is an easy pick, the "fun factor" is very closely related to the fact that the software is controlling the resistance and I simply have to ride the bike like I do for real.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on October 20, 2016, 05:29:58 AM
Does the power sensor measure both legs separately, getting some data from a cadence meter or something?
Or just the overall power?
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 20, 2016, 05:51:01 AM
Does the power sensor measure both legs separately, getting some data from a cadence meter or something?
Or just the overall power?

I'm sure that the power readings are an average value as the power sensor is integrated into the electronics of the trainer itself. If you want an individual reading for left and right side I think that we are talking 1000€+ systems(Garmin Vector, Stages etc). :D
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on October 20, 2016, 07:55:03 AM
I'll need to find another way then to clear an existential doubt that my left leg pushes significantly more than the right one :)

For now, the evidences for the doubt are the sole is peeling off from the upper always on the inside of the left shoe(on a Shimano, a Mavic and a Northwave pairs).
And when one pedal had issues(bearing, axle) it was twice the left one.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 20, 2016, 08:04:15 AM
I'll need to find another way then to clear an existential doubt that my left leg pushes significantly more than the right one :)

For now, the evidences for the doubt are the sole is peeling off from the upper always on the inside of the left shoe(on a Shimano, a Mavic and a Northwave pairs).
And when one pedal had issues(bearing, axle) it was twice the left one.

I will put it the other way around, according to many studies it is very uncommon to be equal strong in both sides of your body. I'm about 10% stronger in my left leg as measured on my friends Garmin Vector power meter. As a matter of fact it is not uncommon for proffs to compensate with different length crank arms just to handle that fact. The same goes for the length of your legs, one of them could easily be a little longer :D

I'm debating with myself to buy a dual power meter set but it is a bit expensive :(

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on October 20, 2016, 11:33:34 AM
A real power meter is way beyond what I want to spend! But if you want left/right power, that's the only tool available.

Most smart home trainers providing power values actually do not have power sensors. They just rely on speed/resistance level combo. They know the power curve of their equipment, they calculate it but don't measure it.
So, this is just the same as a basic trainer equipped with a speed sensor. If you use a software which has calibrated your trainer, it will tell you the calculated power.

Then, I thought about smart trainers. And when I say "smart" I don't mean those who tell your speed/power, I mean those being controlled by a software. What they do is change the resistance. But thinking twice about it, that's not really what we want. What is important is to get in the right power zone, and this depends then always on you (how fast you pedal). If the resistance increases but you drop your cadence, or change gears to compensate, then you miss completely the point.

All that to say that I'll most likely just go with a basic trainer, good quality, silent (fluid resistance) and get the smart side of it with my speed/cadence sensors (Smart BT) coupled to a good software, calibrated on my trainer. I'll play with my gear (and legs) to get into the working zone I need to be in.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on October 20, 2016, 12:01:23 PM
A real power meter is way beyond what I want to spend! But if you want left/right power, that's the only tool available.

Most smart home trainers providing power values actually do not have power sensors. They just rely on speed/resistance level combo. They know the power curve of their equipment, they calculate it but don't measure it.
So, this is just the same as a basic trainer equipped with a speed sensor. If you use a software which has calibrated your trainer, it will tell you the calculated power.

Then, I thought about smart trainers. And when I say "smart" I don't mean those who tell your speed/power, I mean those being controlled by a software. What they do is change the resistance. But thinking twice about it, that's not really what we want. What is important is to get in the right power zone, and this depends then always on you (how fast you pedal). If the resistance increases but you drop your cadence, or change gears to compensate, then you miss completely the point.

All that to say that I'll most likely just go with a basic trainer, good quality, silent (fluid resistance) and get the smart side of it with my speed/cadence sensors (Smart BT) coupled to a good software, calibrated on my trainer. I'll play with my gear (and legs) to get into the working zone I need to be in.

My question to you then; how will you know if you are in the power zones that you want to be in?

Digging into the world of power meters and how they actually measure/calculate your transferred energy to the wheel I think is beyond the intend with this thread :D However, if you go out and compare the big known brands into powermeters, you will also see variation in their readings. DCRainmaker have written tons of pages just about that specific subject - He also tested some of the smart trainers(including mine) up against professional power meter systems, and none were off by more than 5% and that is good enough for me. As a matter of fact I don't care how much it is off as I will still have something to train up against. I do rely a lot of his thoughts and comments and I agree with him in that you cannot train in a optimal way without some sort of power readings.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on October 20, 2016, 02:21:37 PM
My question to you then; how will you know if you are in the power zones that you want to be in?
As I mentioned, software calibrated with trainers power curve will provide Power info, just the same as a smart trainer (from speed/cadence/resistance). Zwift and TrainerRoad provide this calibration even for non smart trainers.
The only difference is that the sensor is not necessarily integrated in the trainer.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: tlmadsen on November 02, 2016, 06:51:17 AM
Think it is time for me to put forward my home-trainer experience. “Karstenhorn’s” set-up is what I would call a “full-blown home-trainer set-up” and if you have the money and the space to have it installed permanently it is difficult to say anything bad about it. I wish I had the space for a such a permanent installation.

However, for many people, the price and/or the space for such an installation is the limiting factor. My home-trainer set-up is in the opposite end of the scale, it is a very basic ELITE novo and I think that to some extent, this is more what “SportingGoods” is after.

Let me explain how I use it, so you can get a feeling for it and judge if this is the way you should go. The trainer itself is the ELITE Novo,  it is  just a very basic trainer where you strap in your bike and it apply a “resistance-roller” to your tire. It has 8 levels of “resistance” and that’s it. No electronic, no power -meter ext. nothing beside the resistance to your tire.

I typically strap in my racer or my Tri-bike, never tried with my MTB. A short side remark. A home-trainer, regardless if you have a small or big set-up, is perfect to learn to be in the aerobars of a tri-bike. It takes a couple of month, but then you got it and it is much safer than going on the road.

How do I train, when I am on the home-trainer.  Basically, after my pulse. I have a Garmin Fenix-3 (not the HR, but the strap version). Typically, I make a training session in Garmin Connect, load it up to the Fenix-3 and I am ready to go. I then just adjust the resistance and the gear, so I am at the right pulse-level/zone and a good cadence.

 I do have both cadence and speed measurement on the bikes going to the Fenix-3, but I don’t really use them while on the home-trainer; For cadence, you typically know if you are in a good flow and the speed measurement don’t really make sense unless you compared to the same resistance-level ext.

A typical training session last between one and two hours. It can be interval, long rides at specific pulse-zone (typically on the tri-bike) or whatever you fancy. I typically listen to music. In the beginning, I also watched television, but I somehow became unforced on the training, so I stopped that.
 
I sweat a lot when I do exercise (yes, my fitness level is OK), but when I am on the home-trainer, I sweat like a pig, very much like when you are in a spinning class (you don’t have the cooling effect of the “speed wind”), so if you intent to do your home-trainer indoor, remember to get a BIG fan.

I prefer the home-trainer on the covered balcony, then the fan is only needed in the hottest times. Sometimes I do it in the basement and the fan is a must and you need fresh air in the room afterwards. Putting it up in the living room is basically a no-go, at least for me, due to the sweat and to some extent the noise.

Going more than a couple of hours on a home-trainer is a mental challenge, and even with a full scale set-up I think it is the same. My record is about 3:20 and that was REALLY mentally hard.

What I like about this set-up and the home-trainer is that it is extremely efficient. Beside the bike itself, I only need the trainer and a sleeping pad to go under the set-up. No electronic, no tv, no calibration ext. The Fenix-3 I have for all training session anyway.

The only data you get is your pulse, cadence and “speed”.

You could even use the most basic pulse-watch and just write down your training session and follow that.

No, I don’t know what power I am at, nor can I claim that I did mount Ventoux in 45 min, but does it improve my fitness level: YES.

Having a home-trainer, regardless of scale is very efficient, you don’t have to find out where you want to go, drive to all the traffic light in the city before you can really start ext. and most important, you family can still get in contact with you while you are on the trainer. Quite important if you have smallish children.

BR

Thomas
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 02, 2016, 07:09:25 AM
Thanks Thomas for this feedback. It's nice to see people spending time to write detailed reviews like that!
I'm about to pull the trigger on the Elite Qubo fluid. I can get it for 200€. I don't need it now, weather is really nice, but I really could ride more if I had one (after work, I pick up the kids and it's already dark outside)
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on November 02, 2016, 12:28:16 PM
I totally agree with your points Thomas, the most important part is the ability to conduct structured training. It does not matter so much if train based on pulse or a power output as long as you something to measure up against. Me personally I prefer to use power as the factor I measure up against as my pulse is jumping around due to the medicine I have to take day in and day out.

About the easiness of getting access to training, I will just point out that during the last month here locally there have only been 1 day where weather and my work schedule made it possible to have a decent ride in the forest. Still I have completed 18 bike rides, about 600 km(almost 400 miles) of hard concentrated training and I would say that my fitness level is as good as it has been for many years. That is only possible due to the ability to jump on the trainer any time of the day when you have 1 hour in spare. As a matter of fact I managed to set a new record on my local mtb racetrack that I have done 100s of times. Until now the record was 1h 10 min and last Sunday I did it in 1h 03 min with an average pulse 7 beats lower than the last record ride. The day before I had spent 1 1/2 hour on the trainer so my legs was as a matter of fact a little heavy on that record ride and the trail was extremely heavy due to 3 weeks of heavy rain. All in all hard facts that the investment I made is one of the best investment I have ever made related to my fitness focus. Will I still use it in the summertime when the sun is shining - Hell yes as the efficiency is higher and it is so easy and a very flexible tool. In the end I think I will ride a lot more next season :D

Karsten

Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 07, 2016, 02:34:33 AM
As the Strava members might have noticed, I'm onboard  ;D

I've received my Elite Qubo Fluid on Saturday. The equipment is just as I thought: very quiet (the one thing I hear is the sound of my drivetrain, not the trainer), smooth ride. As a premium Strava subscriber I get 2 month free on Zwift. I like it for now. I did a 30 minutes ride on Saturday (rain all day long). It felt short. I did a 45 minutes FTP test on Sunday, felt short again (I wanted a point of reference to track my progress). I feel that 90 minutes ride should be no problem.
Zwift is a lot of fun, the 3D environment is just as good as a real video to me and it's so nice to see "real" virtual people.

The Trainer has no piece of electronics at all (pure fluid roller). I stay on the small ring and get enough range there. I pushed over 600W during the FTP test and can roll easy at 60W for warm up, always in a cadence that is appropriate. I don't need more then that, and if I ever do, I'll just get on the big chainring. That's why I have picked this trainer, you control the resistance through the speed (cadence and gear).

Zwift knows what I do thanks to 3 sensors: my HR band, a speed sensor and a cadence sensor. All Smart BT. Zwift shows cadence, speed, climb, distance and power (because he knows the power curve of my trainer). I get a wide screen to display the 3D world (the external screen of my MacBook) and I get my iPhone mounted on my bike (as usual) to give me controls (pause, send message to buddies, turn left/right, show as well the metrics).
The one thing I miss now is a big fan. I sweated a lot during the FTP test.

Now my plan is to follow the 12 weeks winter plan. You don't have to stick to it, you just load the session you want, that way you can still mix outdoor and indoor. I'll see in 2 month if I want to pay 10€/month. I'll have the option to test other softwares, they all offer some sort of free test.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on November 07, 2016, 05:32:10 AM
...because he knows the power curve of my trainer...
This is as good and much cheaper than a power meter to measure improvements. Great.

... I get my iPhone mounted on my bike (as usual) to...  turn left/right...
What? You turn right/left with the phone :) ?
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 07, 2016, 07:58:03 AM
I'd say that this is exactly how the smart trainer work. They don't have any single strain gauge! That would be too expensive. They just calculate power from speed and the known power curve. Instead of paying the trainer company to tell me Power, I pay a sensor company and a software company. All the same at the end.

And yes, in Zwift you can go where you want! When there is a cross road you can tap on your phone which direction you prefer (uphill, follow the shore, get into the city). I'm really liking Zwift for now. The kids thought I was playing a video game and I had to explain them why they can't play. Even my wife wants to try Zwift. It's so nice that I was a bit disappointed that the weather was so nice today and I could not consider riding indoor. Shame on me  :-[
Today was probably my last day out for a week, we have snow coming tomorrow!
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on November 07, 2016, 08:44:33 AM
... Today was probably my last day out for a week, we have snow coming tomorrow!
Too bad for you, but comforting for some of us in about 8 weeks :)
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 09, 2016, 07:38:08 AM
I wanted to post a picture of my setup and found nothing best then my security cam  :)
Not great quality but you see the point. I just push my chair against the desk. I put Zwift on the center screen. My bike right in front of it, with my phone mounted on the stem. A bottle in the cage. A towel nearby (hang on my elliptical bike, which is now useless!). Again, I miss the fan, but I've ordered one on Amazon.
You see it's not a permanent setup but it takes 5 minutes to install. Fast enough for me, my office is located at the ground floor, just the same as my bike shed.


50 minutes felt really short last night. Did that while my son was at his rugby training, and I had my daughter at home (no way to get out and ride).

(https://s15.postimg.org/8m65lw85n/00606_E60002_E_Bureau_1_20161108184446_28622.jpg)

PS: I confirm that snow is now falling!

EDIT: I forgot to confirm that indeed Zwift and Strava end their partnership. I will benefit from Nov and Dec free on Zwift but then it's gone. I might try Bkool software then, even though I really like Zwift and have started a 12 weeks build-FTP training program.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on November 10, 2016, 02:54:54 AM
I might try Bkool software then, even though I really like Zwift and have started a 12 weeks build-FTP training program.

Hello

Just a heads up regarding BKOOL, their workout section sucks and from my perspective completely useless. Even you do a FTP test, it does not incorporate that in a work out plan. You cannot type in your FTP value manually if you have it by other means. You can only create a workout plan with maximum 3 training passes per week. The training plans BKOOL suggest is plain stupid; for example I created a plan to improve my endurance power and it came up with a training plan where I should stay in power zone 1 and 2 for the first 14 sessions. That would kill my fitness level and 5 weeks of training down the bin. You cannot create a specific workout based on either power or pulse, they clam that it will come in the future but lets see.

They just did a huge update to their system and not for the better if you ask me. BKOOL I now only use for recreational/fun rides and all my training I do in Trainerroad. 

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 10, 2016, 03:30:30 AM
Thanks Karstenhorn! I won't waste my time with BKool software then. The 2 softwares that really seem the best are TrainerRoad and Zwift. And I realized last night that I still get my 14 days of test for free on Zwift. It does cumulate with the 2 month from Strava Premium. So, I get 2 month and 1/2 free of charge to go through the winter, it might be enough. Worse case I'll pay 10€ for one more month.
The good thing is that you can suspend your subscription to Zwift till the next winter and then you still have everything when you join back (history, level, unlocked jersey, bikes, wheels - which effect the speed!).

One thing I forgot to mention about my trainer. For now I just use my regular tire and I see no issue. It does not get hot even after 60 minutes ride, it is not damaged in any way (people were reporting on forum some rubber bits flying around  :o). Not sure if that's because it is a tubeless that is very soft and comfortable, or if that's the polymer coating on my trainer, but I don't plan on a trainer-specific tire.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on November 10, 2016, 06:40:17 AM
I think that specific trainer tires are overrated and I know that many people are using their ordinary road tire and that they are as good as any other tire. I just bought the new Michelin Power and did not want to waste them on a trainer winter season so I bought a specific trainer tyre as they were less than half prize of a good quality road tire. For the upcoming winter seasons, I will save my old road tires and use them up on the trainer. So far I have done more than 1000 km on my swalbe trainer tire and it still looks like new.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 11, 2016, 09:24:09 AM
I have just discovered something very interesting... Cyclocross tires is a no-go!

My wife asked me to try the trainer (the complete experience, with software). So I put the sensors on her bike (quite easy with the Wahoo sensors - no magnet). I swap the rear axle (common axle don't enable a secure grip on the trainer). Put the bike on and... it sounds like a jet engine  :o
Those are continental CX 35 mm tires, with a very subtle structure (diamond-like dense structure). I really thought it would be OK, but it's absolutely not!

I have mounted a spare wheel with my Durano 28mm, and it's now as quiet as my Pro One tubeless.

So, it appears that you absolutely need a slick tire, the least structure the quieter.

EDIT: these are the CX tires
http://www.probikeshop.fr/continental-pneu-speed-cx-700x35c-souple/61172.html
(http://www.probikeshop.fr/images/products2/64/61172/600x600-61172-pb12305-2-add1.jpg)
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 17, 2016, 10:09:40 AM
A quick update on home trainer. I get a couple key points I'd like to share with you:

1) It's pretty impressive how it helps to progress.
I've cycled a lot more then I would have w/o a trainer. It shows when I'm back on the road. Today I went for a relaxing ride over lunch, nice sunny cold day, and still pushed on the way back up home, but not as much as I have in the past. I was surprised to cross a reference point at 28km/h, around the top of the climb, where I know I'm usually around 24-26km/h. Checking the log on Strava, I have indeed beaten my PR, not trying to!

2) There is a lot to learn from Power metric.
Real power meters are more expensive then what I want to spend, so I don't have any. But trainers enable to visualize Power easily. I've experimented that many factors impact output Power:
- the pedaling technique can save a lot of watts. You have to force yourself to push less when pedaling properly or you exceed the power target.
- my position on the bike is important. I generate more watts in the drops, w/o meaning to.
- cadence. There is really a sweet spot that is efficient. That's about 85 rpm for me (it could actually be a different real value, but that's what my sensor tells me)
- Mind focus. During a recovery section I have to focus on the watts or I push too much. When I see a change in the landscape (turn, approach a climb or a descent or a group...Zwift enables all that) I immediately start to push stronger. I have to force myself if I want to stay at the power target.
This tells me that a power meter would be cool on the road, but I'll wait till a product comes in at a reasonable price!
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on November 18, 2016, 06:25:01 AM
Hello

Without doubt I will be riding with a power meter on my road bike next spring, however until now I have been reluctant to pay for a $1000+ solution until I read a DCRainmaker article about the new "PowerPod". Here we are talking a reasonable prizing and according various tests also remarkably accurate compared to the cost.

Link to Powerpod: http://www.powerpodsports.com/
Link to DCRainmaker article: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/03/powerpod-depth-review.html

As a matter of fact quite easy to swap between road- and MTB and I'm just about punch the buy button :)

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on November 18, 2016, 07:47:15 AM
Thanks Karstern! This is a very interesting discovery.
I'm surprised the wind can be measured precisely enough to match other power-meters( despite side winds, aerodynamics/size of the rider, standing on the pedals vs. seated, etc. ).

I'm not particularly interested of knowing precisely my watts.
But having a relative measurement to do some exercises, to know if I'm improving after a particular training or if I'm too long in the red.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 18, 2016, 09:54:36 AM
Reviewing the article it looks like this PowerPod is not a good choice for MTB:

"Finally, one area that doesn’t work well is cobbles.  I recognize this is largely a European problem, and not so much a North American one – but, it’s a valid problem for me since my streets are littered with them.  In my testing, the unit simply doesn’t produce accurate power when riding cobblestones.  Within seconds of hitting such a patch of roadway, the unit pretty much shrugs and gives up.  It’s like this emoticon: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

No obvious choice for now...
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on November 18, 2016, 10:34:33 AM
Reviewing the article it looks like this PowerPod is not a good choice for MTB:

"Finally, one area that doesn’t work well is cobbles.  I recognize this is largely a European problem, and not so much a North American one – but, it’s a valid problem for me since my streets are littered with them.  In my testing, the unit simply doesn’t produce accurate power when riding cobblestones.  Within seconds of hitting such a patch of roadway, the unit pretty much shrugs and gives up.  It’s like this emoticon: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

No obvious choice for now...

My primary focus with regards to power meter is my road bike and I agree, it seems like it is not the best option for MTB riding. However I guess it is better than nothing - When spring comes I will try it out on a few rides and come back with some feedback.

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: seahog32 on November 18, 2016, 04:50:11 PM

I've received my Elite Qubo Fluid on Saturday. The equipment is just as I thought: very quiet (the one thing I hear is the sound of my drivetrain, not the trainer), smooth ride. As a premium Strava subscriber I get 2 month free on Zwift. I like it for now. I did a 30 minutes ride on Saturday (rain all day long). It felt short. I did a 45 minutes FTP test on Sunday, felt short again (I wanted a point of reference to track my progress). I feel that 90 minutes ride should be no problem.
Zwift is a lot of fun, the 3D environment is just as good as a real video to me and it's so nice to see "real" virtual people.

The Trainer has no piece of electronics at all (pure fluid roller). I stay on the small ring and get enough range there. I pushed over 600W during the FTP test and can roll easy at 60W for warm up, always in a cadence that is appropriate. I don't need more then that, and if I ever do, I'll just get on the big chainring. That's why I have picked this trainer, you control the resistance through the speed (cadence and gear).


I am probably missing something so be patient with me but I thought Zwift was supposed to be used with so called "smart" trainers to get that close to reality riding feeling (resistance increasing when riding "uphill", decreasing on "downhill" and "drafting" behind other riders. I can't see how your setup could deliver that.
Also, and I am not trying to get into a discussion of "mine is bigger, no way yours so big!", but FTP of 600W seems to be a bit excessive. If I'm not confused Jens Voigt used to have one of 450W. Now, that might have been a full one hour FTP (I am not sure what testing method did you use but most people don't subscribe to the full 60 mins. of torture so I will work with an assumption it was 20 mins.) but even if that was the case and Jens' 20 to 60 minutes FTP drop-off was as high as 50W (unlikely), it would put his 20 min FTP at 500W. In other words yours seems to be 20% better than the former hour record holder's. To me it looks like your testing method might be flawed in a way that would seriously skew your Zwift experience. And don't get me wrong. I don't use Zwift and don't care about any leaderboards there either. Of course it is well possible that those 600W was just a typo and I've wasted my coffee break here.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on November 19, 2016, 01:27:21 AM

I've received my Elite Qubo Fluid on Saturday. The equipment is just as I thought: very quiet (the one thing I hear is the sound of my drivetrain, not the trainer), smooth ride. As a premium Strava subscriber I get 2 month free on Zwift. I like it for now. I did a 30 minutes ride on Saturday (rain all day long). It felt short. I did a 45 minutes FTP test on Sunday, felt short again (I wanted a point of reference to track my progress). I feel that 90 minutes ride should be no problem.
Zwift is a lot of fun, the 3D environment is just as good as a real video to me and it's so nice to see "real" virtual people.

The Trainer has no piece of electronics at all (pure fluid roller). I stay on the small ring and get enough range there. I pushed over 600W during the FTP test and can roll easy at 60W for warm up, always in a cadence that is appropriate. I don't need more then that, and if I ever do, I'll just get on the big chainring. That's why I have picked this trainer, you control the resistance through the speed (cadence and gear).


I am probably missing something so be patient with me but I thought Zwift was supposed to be used with so called "smart" trainers to get that close to reality riding feeling (resistance increasing when riding "uphill", decreasing on "downhill" and "drafting" behind other riders. I can't see how your setup could deliver that.
Also, and I am not trying to get into a discussion of "mine is bigger, no way yours so big!", but FTP of 600W seems to be a bit excessive. If I'm not confused Jens Voigt used to have one of 450W. Now, that might have been a full one hour FTP (I am not sure what testing method did you use but most people don't subscribe to the full 60 mins. of torture so I will work with an assumption it was 20 mins.) but even if that was the case and Jens' 20 to 60 minutes FTP drop-off was as high as 50W (unlikely), it would put his 20 min FTP at 500W. In other words yours seems to be 20% better than the former hour record holder's. To me it looks like your testing method might be flawed in a way that would seriously skew your Zwift experience. And don't get me wrong. I don't use Zwift and don't care about any leaderboards there either. Of course it is well possible that those 600W was just a typo and I've wasted my coffee break here.

If SG can push a FTP of 600W he should not be here but on the SKY team - That would be better than Froome and properly close to a world record  ;D

I think that SG mean that he can peak at 600 watts witch I also can but only for less than a minute. My FTP value is a tad past 200 watts and that, based on the BKOOL rating, places me in the highest level of amateurs. As long as your trainer software don't know what resistance you have on your trainer, the numbers you get will always be vague at its best. Speed, HR and cadence are not enough to calculate accurate power numbers if the calculator don't now the power curve of your trainer. I guess that the power curve of the trainer SG have, is known by SWIFT and therefore  able to calculate the power output. A smart trainer I would say is a tad more accurate but also a tad more expensive.

Here is a good article about FTP values between amateurs an PRO's: https://decaironman-training.com/2013/12/09/powerlevels-ftp-pros-vs-humans/comment-page-1/

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 19, 2016, 05:04:24 AM
That's funny  ;D
Communication is difficult, and written communication is so difficult! So easy to misunderstand, sometimes I don't even understand what I meant to say when I read what I wrote :)

So, no my FTP is not 600W. What I meant to say is that, staying on the small chainring, I managed to push anywhere between 60W and 600W during an FTP test. 60 W being the warmup. 600W being the final sprint. My FTP, measured on Zwift is around 265W. It is probably lower then the real value. I could have pushed more. And my Strava numbers (not real measurements, but based on climb profile/speed/weight) tell me that I'm closer to 300W (but not there yet).
I'm not a pro but I'm not a newbie either. I've participated in the French National XC Marathon championship this year. Not the best for sure  ;D

Anyway, as I mentioned, my setup is still very nice on Zwift. I get 3 sensors telling Zwift what I do (speed/cadence/HR). Then Zwift displays the power and my target power. And whatever the climb, 200W is 200W, only the speed changes. I change the resistance myself with my gear. The output power is just a combination of what I'm pushing (cadence) and the gear ratio. What you need to understand on that Fluid trainer is that the resistance increases with the speed of the rear wheel.
It's not as good as smart trainer but it's only 200€! And so far the experience is excellent to me. In the short time I've had this tool I've already sweated over 8 hours on it! It's all that matters.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: seahog32 on November 19, 2016, 09:18:09 AM
That's funny  ;D
Communication is difficult, and written communication is so difficult!

Anyway, as I mentioned, my setup is still very nice on Zwift. I get 3 sensors telling Zwift what I do (speed/cadence/HR). Then Zwift displays the power and my target power. And whatever the climb, 200W is 200W, only the speed changes. I change the resistance myself with my gear. The output power is just a combination of what I'm pushing (cadence) and the gear ratio. What you need to understand on that Fluid trainer is that the resistance increases with the speed of the rear wheel.


Yeah, I had a feeling the 600W was just some sort of a miscommunication.

However, to the Zwift: You are right that 200W is always 200W and only the speed is changing. That gives you speed x on a flat road. When you start to climb at the end of the flat road, your speed drops to speed y, assuming you are still holding your 200W, and y<x. Obviously, you are on a trainer, the incline does not change and the resistance of the flywheel in your case does not change either. So if I understand it correctly this time, the Zwift's "brain" knows that you are climbing and drops your displayed speed appropriately to the incline of the virtual hill. Then, if you want to maintain your perceived speed in the virtual world constant when hitting the hill, you need to upshift to a harder gear and pedal harder to increase your power output. That is the difference comparing to the real world or a smart trainer where you just need to pedal harder without the upshift part! So in conclusion, with your settings if you are recording your training session both in Zwift and, let's say, with a Garmin head unit, at the end you will get too different readings regarding the ridden distance and the speed profile.

As I said, I am a little slow but hopefully I got it right this time. So proud of myself  ;)
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 19, 2016, 11:30:47 AM
You got it 100% correct  8)

But again, the key point with Zwift is that it makes indoor ride 10x more enjoyable. Time flies, really. And the 3D environment, with everything around (avatar of real people, change in weather, sounds, etc...) succeeds to cheat my brain enough that I react like in a real environment (slightly leaning when cornering, pushing a bit more when reaching the top of a climb, getting in the drops after the pass of the mountain...).

Getting back to the power reading, it's most likely inaccurate but I don't race in Zwift, so I don't care! But the relative power reading is extremely useful to someone who never had a power meter. It's really educating and shows the benefit of the real life power meter.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 25, 2016, 03:14:28 AM
Wow, it's oh so quiet (Bjork inside)! I guess it is because of Thanksgiving.

I get some content to share here, Home trainer related. Yesterday, I did an indoor ride (rain outside, was not feeling great, coughing, cold...). I still did a workout of my FTP builder plan, 1:23 minutes on the trainer, not bad. All that to say that after workout, I told myself:

"This feels very similar to an outdoor ride I've done recently. I feel just about the same after the ride!"


So I've crunched the numbers, for your delight  ;D

                                     Indoor                                Outdoor
DateNov. 24thNov. 17th
Distance41.2 km41.1 km
Time1:23:041:25:33
Elevation425 m546 m
Avg Power188 w192 w
Avg HR142 bpm148 bpm
Avg Speed29.8 km/h28.9 km/h

I'm shocked by this incredible matching. The 2 rides are very similar except that the Outdoor ride showed a bit more elevation, that is reflected in every other parameter (time, power, HR, speed). And again, my body told me that these 2 efforts were similar.
So, this really shows that trainers provide reliable data (in term of power, distance, elevation, speed). It also shows that when it's not possible to ride outside you can really get the same workout indoor. And honestly, I feel bad to admit it, it can be almost as fun as riding outdoor...  :-[  I've enjoyed riding in London (I really do) or on this Watopia Island, I enjoyed riding in a group (I plan to repeat that), I'm connected to many riders from all around the world now (Asia, EU, USA) and we exchange during and after the ride. I will miss that social aspect after the winter, I will try to find groups to ride with.
Also, structured training is a lot easier on the trainer where the big screen in front of you tells you what to do. I haven't found a good way to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) training outdoor. Ideally I'd like to take some of my Zwift FTP-building plan to outdoor rides, but I haven't found a tool to tell me the sequence of the workout while on the bike (apart from a sticky note and a timer). Any advice is appreciated.

Enjoy the Holiday!
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on November 25, 2016, 09:09:01 AM
I haven't found a good way to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) training outdoor. Ideally I'd like to take some of my Zwift FTP-building plan to outdoor rides, but I haven't found a tool to tell me the sequence of the workout while on the bike (apart from a sticky note and a timer). Any advice is appreciated.

Easy HIIT is the only reason, I'm still considering and indoor toy( the weather stays in check for now, a second reason will probably come soon... ).

I'm trying(in a lazy way) to locate on the map around here a good track to do HIIT outdoor, a well sized climb followed by a come back loop to rest and repeat.
To do about 8-10 times.
I'm using strava to find the good spot based on my recorded times, but didn't find it yet...

A lot of cognitive effort just to see if HIIT improves me
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 25, 2016, 09:14:51 AM
a second reason will probably come soon...
Now you told too much or too little! Are we talking about a baby?!
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on November 25, 2016, 02:34:29 PM
a second reason will probably come soon...
Now you told too much or too little! Are we talking about a baby?!
[/quote]

Thanks god no ;D I have more than enough kids around already.
The weather may not stay as nice and dry as it is now, giving me a second reason to make the jump to indoor.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: karstenhorn on November 26, 2016, 02:54:38 AM
I haven't found a good way to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) training outdoor. Ideally I'd like to take some of my Zwift FTP-building plan to outdoor rides, but I haven't found a tool to tell me the sequence of the workout while on the bike (apart from a sticky note and a timer). Any advice is appreciated.



You can set up HIIT based training in the Garmin Edge series(520, 820 and 1000) and the cycling computer will guide you through your phases including warm up and cool down.

https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge520/EN-US/GUID-51E58923-AD73-48A0-A72A-6EBC29910DB8.html

Karsten
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: carbonazza on November 27, 2016, 08:17:40 AM
You can set up HIIT based training in the Garmin Edge series(520, 820 and 1000) and the cycling computer will guide you through your phases including warm up and cool down.
https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge520/EN-US/GUID-51E58923-AD73-48A0-A72A-6EBC29910DB8.html

Karsten

Thanks Karsten.
If Garmin offers it, there must be an app for that too. I'll look for it.
I use my phone to navigate/record.

I'm afraid I'm just delaying HIIT as I'm not really a fan of programmed suffering :)
Suffering by attacking a surprising climb is ok, it doesn't last.
But here, knowing it will happen, and doing it multiple times, is another step.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 28, 2016, 03:47:58 AM
I think I'm getting closer to what I need to complete an effective winter prep.

The home trainer is definitely a key part of the equation. Zwift is the motivation side of the HT. Then, you need a plan, because w/o a plan you are ineffective. So I started a plan on Zwift. As long as the weather was poor it was OK, I would spend enough time on the trainer to get the plan done. Now, the week is going to be cold but very dry and sunny! No way I ride all time indoor.

But my plan!!

It's a pain, cause my plan is really just within Zwift. So, After 2 weeks warming up with Zwift's FTP plan I'm going to switch gears. I've just subscribed to CTS "60-minutes climb" plan. This is really my road goal, I plan on 60 minutes climbs (Chamrousse, Alpe d'Huez...). So, I plan to follow this program either indoor or outdoor. You basically receive instruction for the next day by email, every day. I've downloaded an interval timer on my iPhone (https://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/interval-timer-timing-for/id406473568?l=en&mt=8`), the free version.

I still plan to insert some normal rides if I have the opportunity, but I'll try to follow this plan.

FYI, CTS program comes free of charge to Strava Premium members. They offer a wide range of plans. For each plan you decide how long you will spend on the bike each week. I'll report on this plan, but I plan to get started after new year. I'll spend the last 4 weeks of 2016 exploring Zwift further (group rides, why not races), experimenting HIIT session on the road, why not on the MTB, and just riding!
I can provide some feedback on the Zwift FTP building plan. I could be wrong but I find the sessions a bit too relaxed to me. I wish I would push harder. I'm afraid I don't get all the benefit I could from the session because the intensity is a bit low.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: seahog32 on November 28, 2016, 11:21:20 AM
Also, structured training is a lot easier on the trainer where the big screen in front of you tells you what to do. I haven't found a good way to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) training outdoor. Ideally I'd like to take some of my Zwift FTP-building plan to outdoor rides, but I haven't found a tool to tell me the sequence of the workout while on the bike (apart from a sticky note and a timer). Any advice is appreciated.

Enjoy the Holiday!

Not sure about Zwift but you can get a mobile app from TrainerRoad (and possibly others) that you can use outdoors. Then you ONLY need a real powermeter, one that is Bluetooth capable so that it works with your phone (should not be a problem, most of them are dual BT/ANT+ these days AFAIK).
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: seahog32 on November 28, 2016, 11:35:42 AM
I can provide some feedback on the Zwift FTP building plan. I could be wrong but I find the sessions a bit too relaxed to me. I wish I would push harder. I'm afraid I don't get all the benefit I could from the session because the intensity is a bit low.

Maybe you were just slacking a little on your last FTP test. Did you puke at all at the end of your test? Just dicking around. ;) I have no personal experience with Zwift. I feel I would find it a little distracting for the sweetspot/threshold/VO2max indoors training. But then, it may be just my personality. I am the kind of guy who is perfectly happy just to concentrate on keeping my output power within 5 Watts (the closer, the happier) of the prescribed curve. OCD is likely the diagnosis.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 29, 2016, 04:36:31 AM
You are perfectly correct  ;D I was absolutely not at 100%. it's not easy to determine the proper power you can sustain for 20 minutes.

I know for sure that my FTP is somewhere between 250W and 300W. I have already done a climb that was almost 60 minutes at 251W. Then I had some more strength to keep riding for another 60 minutes (and I did not puke!). But all my numbers show that I'm still <300W. That's Strava power.
Then the next question is: is Strava power accurate?

Well, after watching a GCN video where they ask the same question about Powermeters I get my answer. The short answer is "Yes, Strava power is pretty accurate on pure climbs provided that you have properly logged your weight and bike weight". Don't rely on it for flat or descent.
If you know a climb (length, elevation) that you have timed yourself on, you can calculate pretty accurately your power, here (look in the "hill climbing menu):
http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/
GCN used this tool to validate their powermeter!
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on November 29, 2016, 08:47:42 AM
This previous post made me think. There is a cool way to use this power simulation. It will answer the following question: "Am I ready to climb l'Alpe d'Huez in less then 60 minutes?"

With 13.2 km, 1071m climb, the simulator tells me that an 81 kg mass (that's me+bike+water+shoes+helmet...) needs to develop 268.4W to climb this in 60 minutes. If I drop 1 kg (let's say my future mountain wheels + a few grams on me) it will then take 265.2W.

Very good! It is doable. That's one of my goal for 2017.

PS: Marco Pantani owns the record. 36 minutes 40 seconds. That would take me 468W  :o 
With Marco's weight (57 kg) and a 6.8 kg bike that's still almost 400W.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: seahog32 on November 29, 2016, 01:40:07 PM
Well, after watching a GCN video where they ask the same question about Powermeters I get my answer.

Yeah, I watched that show too. More important though than the accuracy of your powermeter in absolute terms is its consistency. Of course, if the powermeter is absolutely accurate then it is consistent too. But even if it over- or underestimates your power it is still perfectly usable for training purposes as long as the error of measurement is always the same, and assuming your FTP has been established using a proper methodology AND the same (inaccurate) powermeter.

As an example, my FTP values are with a 99.9% certainty too high (4.75 W/kg, 356W) but I tested twice in two consecutive days and the results differ within the 10 Watts range. So that tells me where my power zones are and as long as I don't try to use them to compare myself to other people, whether in the real or the virtual world, the absolute numbers don't matter. Also, they make me feel quite warm and fuzzy inside looking on them. And I did not puke either and neither did I pass out after the test but sure was not too far from that point.
Title: Re: MTB Home trainer Software
Post by: SportingGoods on December 07, 2016, 08:11:04 AM
I've entered into a drawing on Zwift last night. Price is a Specialized road disc brake bike (Roubaix with Ultegra Di2 or the equivalent for women, Ruby model - $6500). To enter the contest all you need to do is a 50k ride. So, as soon as the kids were in bed I jumped on my home trainer and logged 50k. I wanted to do a relaxed ride (below threshold), I sticked to it for 40k but could not help pushing the last 10k  ::)

We'll see if my luck has left me  ;D