Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => 29+ & 27+ => Topic started by: ibike on July 28, 2015, 09:18:48 PM
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Hello,everyone:
Can 29er MTB frame assembled with 27.5er wheels?Are there any insecurity factors?
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Yes, sure.
See attached pictures, N-SS HR740C 40mm width 27.5er wheels on CS-256 SL 29er frame, 2.8'' front and rear tires mounted on the 27.5er wheels
This bike was built by one customer from the US.
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I actually didn't realize you could do this, or perhaps I just never thought about it. Seems like it'd be an easy way to try out the wheel size and/or bigger tyres.
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Would you really want to do it? It would bring the bottom bracket that much closer to the ground. ???
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Would you really want to do it? It would bring the bottom bracket that much closer to the ground. ???
Yeah good point. I guess it depends on the the geometry of the frame. You're probably right tho, bad idea, in general.
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That 256 frame with 27.5+ tires seems like an awesome idea to me. Standard 27.5 tires would mostly likely change it for the worse though.
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That 256 frame with 27.5+ tires seems like an awesome idea to me. Standard 27.5 tires would mostly likely change it for the worse though.
So with the 27.5 wheels and 3 inch tyres does anybody know if the bottom bracket height would be about the same as if the frame was outfitted with 29er wheels with standard sized tyres? If so, that's something I'd seriously consider and bet a lot of other guys would too. Peter?
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Difference in rim Radius between 650B and 29er is 19mm , you'd have to measure how much higher is 3" tire over standard one, probably around 10mm difference, the rest will be BB height change so around 1cm of it.
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Difference in rim Radius between 650B and 29er is 19mm , you'd have to measure how much higher is 3" tire over standard one, probably around 10mm difference, the rest will be BB height change so around 1cm of it.
The BB height from wheel centers on 29er is usually 15mm lower than on 650B. All the other height measurements would be the same if both frames are equipped with same 650B wheels. So you get the number from frame geometries only, don't need to bring wheels into it.
That means 650B frame with 650B wheels has BB 15mm higher than 29er with 650B wheels. I bet you can get 3 inch tires on both.
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From what I understood the actual issue is the real BB height over ground, which is the equal to the radius of wheel with tire minus bb offset. When the rim size is decreased, the way for the BB to stay on the same height over the ground is either to change frame to a one with smaller offset or have tires with higher profile. Obviously, sticking to the same frame makes only latter viable. As mentioned earlier, change of less than 2cm coming form the wheels shouldn't be a big deal and fat tires should alleviate for at least half of the difference .
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Wheels and specifically tires definitely need to be factored in when determining actual BB height over the ground. Here is some reading material on the topic.
http://forums.mtbr.com/27-5-29/27-5-frame-compatibility-thread-post-your-setup-957906.html
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Length of the front fork will change BB height.
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So with the 27.5 wheels and 3 inch tyres does anybody know if the bottom bracket height would be about the same as if the frame was outfitted with 29er wheels with standard sized tyres? If so, that's something I'd seriously consider and bet a lot of other guys would too. Peter?
It's been in the plans to upgrade to a carbon wheelset for a while now, and I'd definitely consider going with the 27.5 rim and 27.5+ tires option; So long as BB height difference was negligible.
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I would just start with a frame made for whatever wheel size you plan to run. Even if you can get a 650+ into your 29er frame...the tolerance in the rear would be so tight that any debris caught on the tire will go right into the frame. Imagine the rear tire getting packed with mud and only a couple MM's of room between the tire and the frame. ;)
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Sorry, the tires are 2.8'', not 3.0''
Here is the original email record from that guy:
"Hi Peter, here is a couple pictures of
The CS-256 with the 27.5x40mm wheelset
Mounted with WTB trailblazer 2.8 in the rear
And Vee trax fatty 2.8 in the front.
The WTB is slightly slimmer than the Vee tire
And fits the rear nicely, the Vee is to wide for the
Rear but fits nicely in the rockshox SID 29er 100mm fork."
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Peter by any chance could we get some pictures of the rear tire clearance. Would love to see how much room he has left over.
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Finally he sent me couple of pictures.
And this is what he said:
Hi Peter, the 29" 40mm rims
Are working great. I mounted the chupacabra 29x3.0 tires on them for
My wife's bike, a carver gnarvester which
Is designed for 3.0 tires.
I am attaching a few pictures of the
Clearance on the CS-256 with the
27.5x40mm rims and the WTB trailblazer
Tire ( 27.5x2.8 )
The clearance works but is pretty
Tight. The width of the tire is 66mm
And the internal width of the bottom
Chainstays is 70mm so you end up with
About 2mm on each side.
It works but a frame with wider chainstays
I hope these information would be helpful
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Thanks for posting those pictures Peter! Looks a little tight but not that bad, I'd run it on my bike if I wanted to try out the 650b wheel size.
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Hi guys,
I'm going to test it on my 29er hard tail. Just one question, would you go with 40 or 50 mm rims (external width).
I'll go with the WTB 2.8 tires, Reba fork and my rear spacing is >70 mm.
I'd be tempted to give the 50 mm a try but I'd like to collect your feedback first. What would be the benefit of both width?
Any idea?
Thanks!
Peter, do I qualify for a discount if I'm the first one to qualify the 50 mm setup and report on the forum ;) ?
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70mm is going to be tight if doable at all. The 2.8 Trailblazer is 66mm wide on a 29mm internal rim. I'm going to try it on the 062 frame once it arrives. My rims are 29 internal.
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Agreed, it looks like 43 mm rims would make 70 mm wide tire. Too tight.
It looks like 35 ID is the best option.
I need to make accurate measurements front and rear.
And what about a mix? 43 ID front / 35 ID rear.
Would this show any benefit over a full 35 ID?
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Me again!
Just ordered the 35 ID wheelset (EDITED). I am really excited to give this a ride, all reviews say what I need: it's a lot of fun.
I'll still save my regular 29 inch wheels for proper XC racing but will most likely use these semi-fat most of the time.
I'll post pictures and review
EDIT: too excited, 40 is the OD, not ID. Actual ID is 35.
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Great! keep us posted. Which frame are you running and what tires are planning on going with?
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I am planning on the WTB Traiblazer 2.8. This will go onto a Flyxii (love that name) FR-202 frame.
I have double checked the rear clearance and it looks like 72 mm on the wide point of the tire (the frame is not straight). This should provide 3 mm clearance on each side of the tire... hopefully!!
One key point I have not mentioned before: I don't run single chainring but double. I anticipate that I'll need to tune the rear derailleur a bit to prevent it to rub the tire
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Here we go! I have finally received my 35 ID 27.5" wheelset. First I want to thank Peter from Carbon Speed for the amazing logistic support. Way superior to what you would expect from a local shop.
Anyway, my wheels came in very well packaged, in one piece, this week.
I have already set up the front wheel (I am running out of Notubes tape to seal the rear rim, coming up tomorrow). I have done my first ride today (yes, front 27.5+ / rear 29) and I am VERY surprised. Over the exact same trail 2 days ago I have been quite faster uphill and same speed downhill (pretty steep and technical trail in the Alps). I expected the opposite.
My feeling was that I had a gain in control uphill as the fat tire absorbs everything, but I had not realized that it enabled me to go faster. I did not feel the 200 g added weight over my 29" wheel. Downhill, I had a lot more stability as the speed generated a stronger gyro effect then 29" wheel (again not sensitive at low speed uphill). I could really take lines a lot more straight without being bounced in every direction like it sometimes feel with my light 29" wheel. Still I was not faster! Maybe I lack here the rear wheel.
I'll keep you updated as soon as the rear wheel is setup. I'll highlight how it fits in the frame and with the rear derailleur.
In the meantime here some comparison between 2.8x27.5 WTB Trailblazer on 35ID and 2.25 Nobby Nic on ZTR Crest. See the nice contact patch, and nice profile of the tire on these rims...
(http://s27.postimg.org/luaedw2b3/IMG_1915.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/luaedw2b3/) (http://s1.postimg.org/e8n76hjbv/IMG_1922.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/e8n76hjbv/)
(http://s24.postimg.org/qk8s7lrld/IMG_1920.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qk8s7lrld/) (http://s13.postimg.org/9802s199f/IMG_1919.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9802s199f/)
(http://s2.postimg.org/mkrx0nqb9/IMG_1921.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/mkrx0nqb9/) (http://s12.postimg.org/4gu9rzs61/IMG_1918.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/4gu9rzs61/)
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Final!!!! You can call me Happy Man :) It fits even better then I thought at the rear. 5 mm on the left, 4 mm on the right. That's just a rock solid setup. I plan on keeping the WTB 2.8 at the rear (a fast large tire) and bump up the front to a larger, more grippy 3" when the offer will be better (ideally a Nobby Nic, but a Rocket Ron would do it).
Final built
(http://s15.postimg.org/lu977tk53/IMG_1934.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lu977tk53/)
Drive side, see how the rear derailleur nicely clears on the granny (actually better then with 29" wheel as 27.5+ is a little shorter). 4 mm space. Left side, a safe 5 mm spacing.
(http://s27.postimg.org/3xzfh2w27/IMG_1932.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3xzfh2w27/) (http://s15.postimg.org/gvzgyikhj/IMG_1931.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/gvzgyikhj/)
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Awesome setup. Thanks for the pictures and measurements. What is the clearance between the chainstays on that model? I plan on getting the Trailblazers for my 062 frame once they are back in stock. Right now I am building it up as a 29er but will swap to the 27.5+ setup when the trail bike goes down for winter maintenance.
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Well, it is hard to give a number for frame clearance. As I mentioned before the chainstays are not parallel. On the widest point of my 29" tire (ZTR Crest with 2.25 Nobby Nic) I seemed to have 72 mm. But the 27.5+ being a little shorter, the widest point is closer to the wheel axle so I get a little more clearance then I thought.
Also, it will depend on the profile of the tire. The position of the wide point of the tire will vary.
Anyway, I don't plan to up the rear. I like it safe as it is. But I will definitely get a larger front tire when I find what I want (model, price).
Also, it is a total 400 g added to the bike over the 29" setup. It's totally worth it.
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SportingGoods, thanks for your posts! You've got me really interested in purchasing a set of 27.5 x 35mm ID wheels and throwing them on my IP-057 with some 27.5+ tires. After demoing a few fat bikes, I think I like the in between tire sizes better for the trails in my area. Those fatter +tires should roll over the rocks and roots very nicely.
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Let me try to describe how it feels to ride 27.5+.
1/ With the right (high quality) equipment it is not slower then a good set of 29 wheels. I have done again the same loop I did last week (a short 9 km but very tough and technical loop, uphill and downhill in the Alps).
Full 29 on 8/31: 38"57'
29 rear, 27.5+ front on 9/3: 36"18'
Full 27.5+ on 9/7: 34"33' (I know, it's an amazing difference that needs to be connected to my desire to perform on those wheels, but still, what a difference).
With the front 27.5+ I was faster uphill, same downhill. With Full 27.5+ I am faster both uphill and downhill.
2/ Feeling is in-between 29 hardtail and a long travel full suspension. Right in the middle. It is the exact amount of comfort you need uphill (to climb over roots, rocks). It is NOT enough to enable hard jumps like a full sus would do. From a control stand point, they are different too, a lot of control through grip at low speed (uphill), and a lot of control downhill thanks to the stronger gyroscopic effect (it was a little odd at first, you need to get used to it).
I was used to get people look at my bike, amazed to see a no-brand bike; now I get a double dose with these tires that no-one has ever seen before.
So, I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to push a hard tail further. Still, if you want to ride really hard, a full sus is the only way to go.
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One more update on 27.5+
I have raced yesterday with these wheels, something I never thought I would do. Again, everyone was amazed. It was a very technical trail with plenty of large drops, rock garden, mud, etc... I went through all of that perfectly and felt no weight penalty. Several times I was the only one still on the bike uphill while others had lost grip.
The only question for me now is when will I sell my 29er wheels :)
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The only question for me now is when will I sell my 29er wheels :)
Keep them for a while and switch back and do your test loop again and see if you're slower or faster than your first run on your 29 wheels.
I like the idea of 27.5+ on a 29er. Maybe, sometimes ....
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OK, it's been a few month now that I ride 27.5+. I won't switch back to 29. It's actually better and better.
Schwalbe has started to release Nobby Nic 27.5 x 2.8 and it's a blast. I still use a WTB on the rear but the Nobby Nic on the front is great. Better control and traction then WTB and surprisingly lighter (810g). It sizes 69 mm on my 35 mm rim (internal) which makes it a perfect match for my Reba fork. 3.0 wide would not fit.
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Very interesting feedback! Thank you.
Yet another way to throw more money at my bike ::)
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OK, it's been a few month now that I ride 27.5+. I won't switch back to 29. It's actually better and better.
Schwalbe has started to release Nobby Nic 27.5 x 2.8 and it's a blast. I still use a WTB on the rear but the Nobby Nic on the front is great. Better control and traction then WTB and surprisingly lighter (810g). It sizes 69 mm on my 35 mm rim (internal) which makes it a perfect match for my Reba fork. 3.0 wide would not fit.
I agree with this. Although I am going back to a 29er. But it will be a 29+ bike. For a rigid bike, I definitely liked it better as a 27+ with the 2.8 trailblazers versus 2.2 XR2's on 18mm rims. So the skinny rims will stay on the 062 and some 29+ wheels will go on the new Plus frame.
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Thinking about doing this on my -057. I've sent Peter a note about the 35 mm internal width rims, as I'd like to build up the wheelset. Would these take standard hubs?
I used DT Swiss Revolution spokes on my 29er wheels- any opinions on whether to use the light spokes, or just go with Champion or Competition spokes (or similar)?
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Thinking about doing this on my -057. I've sent Peter a note about the 35 mm internal width rims, as I'd like to build up the wheelset. Would these take standard hubs?
I used DT Swiss Revolution spokes on my 29er wheels- any opinions on whether to use the light spokes, or just go with Champion or Competition spokes (or similar)?
With such beefy rims, they're bringing a whole bunch of strength on their own, so I see no problem going with the Revos, especially if you've used them on your 29er wheels. Smaller diameter, wider rims, all make for a stronger wheel and less need for heavy spokes. I run Revos (technically Sapim Lasers, but the same dimensions) on my fat bike, and it's fine despite my 220lb weight.
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Thinking about doing this on my -057. I've sent Peter a note about the 35 mm internal width rims, as I'd like to build up the wheelset. Would these take standard hubs?
I used DT Swiss Revolution spokes on my 29er wheels- any opinions on whether to use the light spokes, or just go with Champion or Competition spokes (or similar)?
What do you have for CS clearance on the 057? My WTB Trailblazer's on i29 rims (65mm roughly) are about as big as i would want to go on my WW 062 which has 75mm of clearance. If you're interested, I would let the Trailblazer's go for relatively cheap. Less than 150 miles on them.
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Thinking about doing this on my -057. I've sent Peter a note about the 35 mm internal width rims, as I'd like to build up the wheelset. Would these take standard hubs?
I used DT Swiss Revolution spokes on my 29er wheels- any opinions on whether to use the light spokes, or just go with Champion or Competition spokes (or similar)?
My rims (35 mm ID from Peter) are mounted on standard hubs. No issue at all. I still run WTB Trailblazer in the rear (about 65 mm wide) and Nobby Nic up front (they have now expended to 70 mm wide). I can't safely fit any larger either rear or front.
Grip is just fantastic. It's probably not the right place to share it but you can check here how it performs on snow (my bike is the SR, I'm the guy in blue, the poor rider :)).
https://vimeo.com/153423986
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Grip is just fantastic. It's probably not the right place to share it but you can check here how it performs on snow (my bike is the SR, I'm the guy in blue, the poor rider :)).
https://vimeo.com/153423986
Wow, that video was awesome, and those trails were even more beautiful. Where was that? Most videos folks share, I'll watch it, but if it's over a minute long I'll just skim through and probably not watch the whole thing, but that one was great. Must have been a huge amount of work getting all the different angles. Love the music selection, too. I guess it was to show off your tires, but I just enjoyed watching it.
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Thanks! Indeed, it's good to see the 27.5+ in action. It tells a lot more then words.
That's in the French Alps (near Grenoble). The snow session is 25 minutes drive from home. The second one you added a comment is my lunch ride, no car, just get out and ride. That's actually the trail I used to benchmark 27.5+ vs. 29". I know, I'm lucky :)
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Awesome video- thanks for sharing! Makes me want to move to Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Tahoe, etc...
Looks like you stayed in the ski tracks most of the time- did you ever get off into untracked snow? That's probably hard to find in the ski area, but just wondering how well it does in soft snow. How do your regular 29er tires compare on the packed snow?
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Thanks Patrick. Very easy to answer that:
- Forget about fresh snow. Even a fat bike can't handle 3 feet of powder. Well, even a snowboard can't handle that without speed/slope. No way a bike will, whatever the tire width. You immediately plunge into the white :)
- My buddy was on 29er, pretty aggressive tires and was doing fine too. Going up I still had more traction then he did. Going down his skills made up 10x for the tire width :)
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SportingGoods, thanks for sharing, that was a really nice video of riding in the snow. I think it would take me some time to learn how to ride packed snow with the lower amount of grip. I may even want spikes on my tires :).
Also, nice choice of music, I'm also a big fan of Daft Punk.
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Also, nice choice of music, I'm also a big fan of Daft Punk.
Agreed - when the second song started, I just smiled - perfect choice. Was also listening to the Ki: Theory today after the other video. :D
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SportingGoods, can you tell me how far from the axle the widest part of the Nobby Nic is? I'm starting to order parts to build up the plus size wheels, and want to see if the NN might fit on the -057 frame.
Also, did you go with the XC or All Mountain Version of the rims?
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I'm also getting more interested in adding some 27.5+ wheels to my stable. I'm just hesitant with clearance on either of my frames.
So far from SportingGoods he has posted the following info:
SportingGoods 29er to 27.5+ Conversion Summary
Frame = FR202
Fork = Rockshox Reba Solo Air
Carbon Wheels = 27.5" x 35mm (internal width), 40mm outer width (HR740C from Peter)
Tires =Schwalbe Nobby Nic 27.5" x 2.8" Front (70mm actual width), WTB Trailblazer 27.5" x 2.8" Rear (65mm actual width),
Widest part of tires occurs 34.3 cm from the front axle on the Nobby Nic, 32.4cm on the rear axle for the WTB Trailblazer.
Clearance on the rear chain stays 4mm drive side /5mm non drive side
Rides great, faster setup, he prefers the 27.5+ over his 29er wheels.
Given the above information, we should be able to determine how much clearance any frame and fork would have with those tires and carbon wheels.
On my IP-057 frame:
I have a CS measurement of 71.5mm. (71.5-65)/2 = 3.25mm clearance each side. Seems like I better have a rear wheel that stays true, that is about as little clearance as I would ever like to see.
Rockshox Reba RLT Dual Air Fork, I have a measurement of 74.5mm. (74.5-70)/2 -= 2.25mm clearance each side, even tighter than the rear if I use a Nobby Nic tire.
On my IP-036 frame:
I have a CS measurement of 76.5mm. (76.5-65)/2 = 5.75mm clearance each side. This bike might be able to take a wider tire in the back. If I were to put a Nobby Nic on the rear, I might have only 2-3mm clearance on each side.
On my Fox Float 32 CTD Evolution Fork, I have a measurement of almost 90mm. (90-70)/2 = 10mm clearance on each side. I may easily fit a 3.0 tire up front on this bike.
If you run the same setup as SportingGoods, 27.5"x35mm IW Carbon rims, Nobby Nic up front, WTB TB out back, I should be able to use the new wheels with plus tires on either frame.
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I'm also getting more interested in adding some 27.5+ wheels to my stable. I'm just hesitant with clearance on either of my frames.
Distance from axle to widest part of front and rear tires? Need this measurement to check where on my frame/fork to measure the width.
My 062 has 75 to 76mm in of clearance and the Trailblazers worked fine. From my experience and from what I've read, 30 to 31cm's from the axle is where you will want to take your measurements. Another thing to remember is what you are looking to gain. More float for snow/mud/sand riding or more traction for trail riding? From what I can decipher on the interwebz is that trail riders tend to go narrower with rims and bikebackers and soft terrain riders like wider rims. I used 29mm internal and couldn't imagine going narrower. I find 29mm to be perfect with my 2.35 tires, so to me it just seems foolish to go up in tire width and not increasing rim width.
I'm still not sure how I feel about 27.5+ FS bikes. Seems like a lot of weight gain, especially in the tires, for more traction. Which for me, isn't my problem, lack of skill is. So far, I'm in the "plus is for rigid and HT's" camp. But to be honest, I've never ridden a FS plus bike. Riding style and location probably plays a pretty big role in the results too. I remember the first time I swapped wheel sets and lost over 600 grams of wheels between two rides. The difference was very noticeable and heavy wheels is something I know I do not like.
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My riding is mostly trail/XC, I'm already using 2.35" tires (actual measurements is about 56mm wide) and feel that even wider tires would work better in the mix of sand, hard pack clay, roots and rocks that we have in Georgia. Traction is a nice thing to have more of on the trails around here. More skill is also never a bad thing either.
I know there is a small weight penalty, about 400 grams. Which would then make my hardtail weigh in at around 20.5 lbs, or my FS bike weigh in at around 25 lbs. Not bad in my opinion. There is a slight drop in bottom bracket height of 0.25"-0.40", not huge but I wonder if it's a little more when riding given the flex of the tire.
I've been looking at the Trek Stache as well as the Chinese Carbon 27.5+/29+ frame that Peter has available. However, I'm not really wanting to build another bike, but swapping wheels onto an existing bike might be fun. I may even prefer the 27.5+ tire over my 29er tires.
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Oops, I see some questions for me here! I was out in the last 10 days (spent a week in USA :) and then Easter break).
I'll make some measurements for both WTB TB and NN, both in 2.8, and get back to you.
I have clearly moved away from a pure weight weeny and I keep my Reverb dropper post as well as my 27.5+ wheels. Despite the weight addition, these 2 make me way faster (and we talk about XC Marathon here, where weight does matter).
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My riding is mostly trail/XC, I'm already using 2.35" tires. However, I'm not really wanting to build another bike, but swapping wheels onto an existing bike might be fun. I may even prefer the 27.5+ tire over my 29er tires.
This is pretty much where I was at. Luckily I already had the 27.5 wheels with 29mm internal rims so all I had to get was the tires. The WTB Trailblazers were 66 to 67mm wide at the widest point on my wheels.
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Also, measure 32 cm from the axle and if you 75mm or more you should be good for the 2.8's on 30mm-ish rims.
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No worries, SportingGoods. Hope you enjoyed your trip to the US. Were you able to ride anywhere?
I got impatient and ordered all the bits to build up the wheelset and the Nobby Nic 2.8 tires. I found a few measurements on MTBR.com that gave me a little more confidence that it would fit. It's tough to get a good measurement, but it looks like I should be OK. I will definitely have less tolerance for dishing that with a normal tire, though. If it doesn't fit, I guess I have to buy a new frame to go with the wheels. :)
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Patrick, I'll let you go first, let me know how much clearance you end up with on your -057 and how much your bottom bracket height changes.
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OK, I pulled out the measuring tape and found:
- WTB TB 2.8: 32.4 mm from axle, for the widest point of the tire. This is the side of the tire. 65mm wide.
- Nobby Nic 2.8: 34.3 mm from axle. The reason of the difference is that it is not the side of the tire that is the widest point but the tread. The widest point of the side of the tire is approx the same as WTB (which is about 1 mm thinner then the tread). 70 mm wide.
PS: I did not manage to ride any bike in US but made some plans for my return trip in July! I'll need to pack my shoes, pedals, helmet and kit!!
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Thank you for posting those measurements SportingGoods. I will check both my Chiners when I get back from riding this evening and report back if I think your setup will fit on either my -057, -036 or both.
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The -057 frame is going to be very tight :(
I may have to switch to a WTB in the rear, which is disappointing since my 29er 2.4 Continentals are 59 mm wide. I guess an extra 3 mm all around is a lot more volume, but it doesn't sound like it.
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Currently my Suguaro tires are 57mm wide so for me it would be a 10mm increase in the rear. On my -057 frame, I am measuring 74mm at 13.5" from the axle. So that would give me 3-4mm per side of clearance. That's a bit tight but at least a WTB TB would fit.
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I just want to highlight that you need minimal clearance with WTB as the wide point is the side of the tire. It won't catch mud and get wider. On the other hand, the NN's wide point will get even wider with mud as it is on the tread. You need a lot of clearance for the NN.
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Looking at the WTB Trailblazer tire, the tread isn't exactly my choice for grip, the pattern appears like it would roll fast but I can see the grip would not be as good as a Nobby Nic or the WTB Trail Boss 3.0.
Would be nice if there was a 67mm wide choice that had the tread blocks spaced a little further apart.
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WTB TB is definitely a rear tire (fast rolling). The NN at the front made a great difference in control on the DH sections. Honestly, if my frame was wide enough I would use a NN in the rear as well. But 65 mm is the max that will fit.
My current dream bike is CS-M04 frame with Eagle drive train, Pike fork and 2 Nobby Nic. I am convinced that a short travel FS is ideal with 27.5+. But that's a lot of money (frame + drive train + fork + hubs) :'(
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After removing my wheels and taking careful measurements, I have updated my post #46.
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Well, they are definitely fatter, but I have not had a proper ride yet so I can't tell how much difference it makes. I ordered the HR740C rims from Peter at xmcarbonspeed.com and built them up with XT M8000 hubs and DT Swiss Revolution spokes. Front tire is the 2.8 Nobby Nic, and the rear is the 2.8 WTB Trailblazer. I got the hubs, spokes, and NN tires from Bike24.com- good prices and everything was correct. Shipping time was a few days longer than a US store would have been, but it didn't delay anything.
I considered using DT Swiss 350 hubs for these wheels like I did on my first set, but in the end decided to go with the XT hubs. The M8000 freehub is 36 POE and about 30 g heavier than the DT Swiss 350; the XT front hub is also about 30 g heavier than the 350 counterpart. Of course the big difference is price- the pair of XT hubs was under $70, or a little less than a DT Swiss 350 front hub. The trade off here is about 60 grams for about $200. I have not taken the hubs apart yet, but I plan to open them up and make sure everything is greased properly before I take a real ride.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3141_zpsyldlhz8d.jpg)
Building the wheels was about the same as the first time- this is only my second set, with about a year and a half in between. It wasn't fast, but I can brag to everybody at the trailhead that I built these wheels. (of course, I won't be bragging if I'm walking back :) ) I didn't run into any problems. The given ERD number of 545.6 is good (though I question the significant figures)- I measured it at 546. I had to dig quite a bit to get all the measurements for the XT hubs, but eventually found what I needed in Shimano's online manuals. I used the DT Swiss calculator and ordered spokes before getting the rims or hubs in hand so I was taking a bit of a risk, but all of the given measurements were correct so the spokes fit. I used 1" wide Gorilla tape with a couple of inches overlap on each side of the valve. This leaves a bit of a gap on the edges, but it completely fills the center channel.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3176_zpscm5k6cqy.jpg)
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3174_zpsd88ehbji.jpg)
The rims both weighed in at 455 g. The hubs were 170 g and 320 g, finished wheels were 790 g and 945 g, or 1835 for the set. Tape, valve stems, and skewers brought them up to 865 g and 1025 g. The 2.8 Nobby Nic is 825 g, the Trailblazer is slightly more (a little over 900) but apparently I didn't write it down.
The 2.8 Nobby Nic is tight in front with a 2014 Rockshox SID. Same in the back with the Trailblazer- your wheels better be true and dished properly. Getting the tires on the rim was hard, but not unreasonably so. No swearing was required. They take A LOT of sealant- I put about 4 oz/100 ml of homebrew sealant in each. I started with 2 oz in the NN and it wasn't holding, but 2 more seems to have done it.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3173_zps5xtulfs6.jpg)
Geometry seems to be pretty much the same- I'm not confident in my BB height measurement, but it is very close. The front fork angle (measured with the level on my phone) is the same with the 27.5+ in the front and the 29 wheel in the back as with both 29 wheels, so the final tire circumference is very close to the same.
Continental 2.4 X-King and 2.8 Nobby Nic comparison-
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/Attachment-1_zpsoxui2zmu.jpeg)
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3179_zpstce47c2t.jpg)
It started raining before I could take a quick ride through the woods- maybe tomorrow.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3177_zps2wpl0cgq.jpg)
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Forgot to add, service from Peter was excellent as always. I received the rims 2 weeks after ordering. Well packed and protected.
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Great post Patrick C! Thanks for sharing. Another future purchase of mine will be a set of 40mm 27.5 wheels from Peter and some 2.8" tires. Now that I know I can use them on either my -036 or my -057 (just like your frame).
Let us know what you gained in tire width and how much extra grip you feel. Also, let us know your impressions of ride quality. Those bigger tires should provide a noticeable improvement.
Lastly, what is your measured clearances front and rear?
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:) you can do it , but what my sugestion is pleaes do not do like that. why the 29er frames be mounted with 29er wheelset ? because the control.
Honestly speaking, I used my 27.5er wheelset on my 26er frame, but it is not very comfortable to control it when you riding, especially when turning.
and like some guys said, the BB will be closer to the earth. it is easy to damage it .
anyway, it is a interesting idea.
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First ride was good- I started with around 18 psi in the front and 20 in the rear, which was a bit too high as the bike was still too bouncy over roots and rocks. I got a bit of tire rub in the rear after I hit the first rough section, and had to stop to re-true the wheel. There is almost zero margin for error- I don't have a good set of feeler gauges to check, but I probably have about 1 mm on each side of the tire. After a couple of adjustments I had no more problems with rub, and after lowering the pressure a bit it felt better going over roots and rocks- it's still rough, but the extra air volume definitely takes the edge off and smooths out the ride.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3182_zpsofwewmtv.jpg)
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3184_zpsswvcel33.jpg)
The bike felt great- handling and grip were awesome. Control is excellent- it feels very similar to the 29er wheels, but just a bit heavier to steer and lift the front wheel.
For the second ride (today) i decided to drop the pressure to 15 f /16 r which might be too low for me (200 lbs). It felt great for the first two miles or so- I was definitely taking rougher lines that I would have before. So of course, I cut the rear WTB tire. I did it on this rock, riding over the top of the three instead of going beside them. As I hit the last one it didn't feel that bad, but I felt sealant spraying my leg right away. The tire has a small puncture on the tread and a small cut on the sidewall near the bead. There was no damage to the rim, but it looks like the tire got pinched all the way up to the rim. I walked back to look at the rock and it doesn't look that bad- it has a bit of a sharp edge, but I must have been going at just the right speed over the wrong section.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/IMG_3192_zpsmryoewdt.jpg)
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3193_zpswbem6h0y.jpg)
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3195_zps1vqukwzx.jpg)
The tire wouldn't seal and I wound up walking back to the car, but it was less than a half mile so it was easier to just walk back than to try to put a tube in. It held air, but any time I pumped it above 5 psi or so it would start leaking again. Neither hole looks too bad, so I'm hopeful the latex will seal up overnight or the tire can be salvaged with a patch.
So far I think the mid-fat tires are a nice change, but I'm not going to get rid of my 29er wheels. They do look skinny to me now, though :)
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Curious if the new Stan's race formula would have sealed that larger hole. Got some and started testing it.
http://www.notubes.com/Stans-Race-Sealant-Quart-P1977.aspx
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"Comprised of natural material" means the ammonia smell is gone?
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Tire is holding pressure fine this morning. Looks like I need a larger syringe or some way to get the chunks in there- I'm using the homebrew blend from this thread http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/best-tubeless-brew-406115.html , but the syringe I use to put it in through the valve won't suck up the largest chunks from the auto tire slime.
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I'm using the homebrew blend
You mean the receipt from 2008 ?-)
Since 5/04 I been running:
1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water
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Yes, a lot to go through in that thread :)
I didn't make any changes, such as adding glitter or mica. I read through several pages but never found a definitive change to the recipe.
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I've come to the conclusion that the 2.8" tire on a 34 mm inside width rim is just too wide for the -057. I had been switching back and forth with the 29er wheels, but was using the 29er wheels more due to concern about damaging the chainstays. At best I had less than 1 mm clearance on each side of the WTB 2.8 tire, and in many spots it was closer to 0.5 mm clearance. I bought a dial indicator to put on my truing stand and got the rim to within 0.25 mm, but this combined with runout on the tire is just too much. The tire rubbed through the paint on one side, but the black underneath is perfectly smooth. I already got a couple of weep holes on the sidewalls, so hopefully the tire will wear out before the frame :(.
For anyone considering plus tires on an -057, get a narrower rim in the back. I don't know how narrow you'll have to go- maybe 25 mm inside width? Not sure if I will try to rebuild the wheel or what- anyone know what the biggest 'normal' 27.5 tire is? Or is there a new plus tire that really isn't? :)
I still like the feel of plus tires, and for anyone starting from scratch you should certainly consider plus. With that said, I don't know if I would do it again. Maybe if more in-between tires come out a 34 mm inside width rim will be perfect, but today it just doesn't fit.
While I can tell a difference in the softness of the ride, I think that any improvements in speed were due to improving my skill- I never really ride 'on the edge'. I don't care about having the fastest time, but with the plus tires it was absolutely easier for me to lean into turns and get a feel for how hard you could push it. This has improved my riding on the 29er wheels, such that I feel smoother and can carry more speed through the turns.
I'll continue to ride them, but will have to true them on the bike before every ride, and will not trust them on any long distance rides.
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Thanks for the update Patrick! I look at the small amount of clearance I already have on my -057 with 30mm rims and 2.4" tires so I understand why you had only 1mm per side of clearance with 2.8" tires.
I would still consider getting a set of 27.5"x35mm rims and put them on my -036 like SportingGoods did, he said he has adequate clearance in the rear. Or, I could upgrade my frame and wheels to go full on Plus size.
I still think 3.0" tires are the new standard and 2.4" tires will be for those that have older bikes.
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After more adjustments I now have spots worn through the paint on both chainstays. For now it is just cosmetic (the paint is thicker than I thought!), but if I continue to ride these I'm sure I'll damage the chainstays eventually.
I think I'll have to shelf these wheels until I get a 2.6 or 2.5 for the rear. Specialized is coming out with a 2.6" Slaughter, which may be just what I need.
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Makes me wonder just how wide of a tire I could even run on my 29" wheels with the -057. The Vittoria Saguaros claim they are 2.4" but measure in at 2.25". Maybe a 2.6" tire would fit, I'd say the -057 has about 2.75" of clearance. I've measured it but don't remember the exact number.
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Mine is 70 mm or 2.76", so I'd say your memory is pretty good.
or mine is bad too.
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Has anyone tried the 2.8 Rocket Rons? I'm going to use a 29mm ID rim with a 2.8" tire on my M062 frame but I'm liking the weight of the Rocket Ron for the rear... just want to make sure it'll fit!
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I haven't tried it. I will, when my WTB will be worn out and I get my new frame. Surely a very good rear tire.
I have a Nobby Nic 2.8 at the front. Spot on 2.8"-70mm. I'd expect the Rocket Ron to be very close.
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Past due for an update on this one- I was pretty bummed that the 2.8 tires wouldn't fit the rear on my -057, and decided to try and find the biggest tires that would fit. On the MTBR plus bike forum there is a thread on 27.5+ tires that has a spreadsheet of estimated tire widths on different rim sizes by Craigsj (http://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-plus-bikes/27-5-tires-931412-post12516812.html#post12516812 (http://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-plus-bikes/27-5-tires-931412-post12516812.html#post12516812)) that gives an idea of how different tires will compare based on the bead-to-bead measurement, or how wide the tire casing is. My measurements for the b2b width and mounted tire width are all wider than his measurements/calculated values, but it does give a good idea for ranking the tires.
His formula predicts that the 2.8 Trailblazer should be 64 mm wide on a 34 mm internal rim, whereas I measure closer to 68 mm wide on mine. Pretty close, but since the chainstays on the -057 are 70 mm it makes the difference between "enough clearance" and "rubbing through the paint". The next smaller tires by b2b measurement are the 2.4" Geax Goma, WTB Trail Boss, and Continental Trail King. I decided to go with the Trail King, and so far it works well. I got a wider b2b measurement, but the actual width of the mounted tire came in just under 64 mm, just 2 mm above his calculated width. This gives me just over 3 mm (1/8") clearance on each side. I'll still need to keep an eye on it (and not ride in thick mud, but I wouldn't do that on trails here anyway), but this is probably the fattest tire that will fit. My 29" rims are 25 mm internal, and Continental X-King 2.4's on them measure 58 mm wide (3 mm wider than Craigsj's prediction).
The bottom bracket clearance is about 1/2" less with the 27.5 wheels than with the 29" wheels- dropped from about 10.75" (27.3 cm) to 10.25" (26 cm). I do get more pedal strikes, but that will probably change as I get used to the lower clearance. The feel is almost the same as with the 2.8 tire on the rear- it certainly is smoother than my 29" wheels, due to the lower pressure. My 29" rims are 25 mm internal, and Continental X-King 2.4's on them measure 58 mm wide.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20160809_13_39_37_Pro_zpsfz5yewiw.jpg)
Tough to see, but there is clearance
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20160809_13_41_45_Pro_zpskl1bngoo.jpg)
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20160809_13_41_38_Pro_zps2sccaxtn.jpg)
No problem going up this if you pedal at the right time :)
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20160809_13_48_06_Pro_zpsjq1vwaen.jpg)
Summary of my numbers-
29" wheels-
25 mm internal, X-king 2.4- 58 mm wide
27.5" wheels-
34 mm internal, Nobby Nic 2.8- 69 mm wide
34 mm internal, Trailblazer 2.8- 68 mm wide
34 mm internal, TrailKing 2.4- 64 mm wide
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Thanks for the update Patrick. Even though I don't have my Chiner anymore, it's still interesting to hear about your bike. As you know, I am definitely a fan of wider tires.
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Patrick, that last photo is one of the coolest trail-side photos I've seen. Damn nice work using the rock to prop up the bike. I really enjoy that photo.
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Thanks! My wife is a photographer, I'll have to ask how many compliments she got on her pictures today :)
Like most photos, it still doesn't capture the whole scene. It doesn't really show the contour of the rock- in the foreground it is an easy roll up, but the other side (behind the bike) is a really good step. Mother Nature makes the best alt lines.
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One more from today. I guess I should put these in the Recent Ride thread...
This one is a great rock. The other side is an easy slope with no step, so anyone can ride up it. You can turn and roll off the side, or wheelie off if you're up to it. The smaller rock in front doesn't connect, so you can't really roll down this side.
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac332/patrick_clemensen/WP_20160811_12_30_35_Pro_zpsykkt1icp.jpg)