Chinertown

Chinese Carbon MTB => 29er => Topic started by: karstenhorn on April 29, 2016, 10:31:49 AM

Title: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on April 29, 2016, 10:31:49 AM
Hello

The last week I really started to put some km's on my newly built Ip-036 bought from Peter. After the last ride(some 30 km) I realized that there was a bit more play in the rear triangle/rear wheel and today I decided to take the linkage apart in the triangle and quickly found the culprit. On my bike all bushing bolts are 4 mm too short meaning that they only carry on one side of the "fork" they sit in. Also, the bushing bolts on my frame is quite a bit smaller than the female part, I have measured up to 0.14 mm free play..... I find that hilarious as on my rear triangle I now have 1 lower left "fork" that are partially destroyed on the inside. If there are owners out there that have a IP/CS 036 frame I would strongly suggest to check this if not done so already. I will contact Peter as I need new bushing bolts all over in the correct diameter/length as well as the lower part of the triangle. To be honest I'm not very impressed at the moment........

I had some other 8 mm bushing bolts that I could cut and fit in order to continue riding but not a very elegant fix.

Here is a picture of the bushing bolt 4 mm too short and putting all load on only 1 side of the "fork":

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/F8BC1DFD-C34F-44EF-8337-93CD23C917D7_zpsmj7vtabp.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/F8BC1DFD-C34F-44EF-8337-93CD23C917D7_zpsmj7vtabp.jpg.html)

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/8D873107-9BD2-4CC4-9779-62B78DD5F9FC_zpsqjuybchi.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/8D873107-9BD2-4CC4-9779-62B78DD5F9FC_zpsqjuybchi.jpg.html)

Here is a picture of the bushing bolt being 4 mm too short and its quite easy to see the wear marks only on the outside part:

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/C9A97ABA-17A3-4133-913F-5FA62D7E156C_zpsk7jkz4fa.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/C9A97ABA-17A3-4133-913F-5FA62D7E156C_zpsk7jkz4fa.jpg.html)

Here is a couple of pictures of the lower left "fork" and its clear to see that the carbon is already stating to be ripped apart on the outside part of the "fork", as a matter of fact there were lying small pieces of carbon in there when I took it apart:

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/A4F9F668-3B26-4025-9E71-4198F8FF9F81_zpsj3d2s8xr.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/A4F9F668-3B26-4025-9E71-4198F8FF9F81_zpsj3d2s8xr.jpg.html)

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/A7C72C21-231A-47F1-896E-75A0384021D6_zpsrggarut8.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/A7C72C21-231A-47F1-896E-75A0384021D6_zpsrggarut8.jpg.html)

Here is a couple of pictures of my not so elegant fix but it clearly illustrate how the bushing bolt should have been seated in the first place:

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/E3A281D9-5859-4547-A6BB-FEA21B2F7186_zps6hruaiss.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/E3A281D9-5859-4547-A6BB-FEA21B2F7186_zps6hruaiss.jpg.html)

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/47E8FB2E-D1C9-44DC-B2D1-8407BBEF83A8_zpsmog1txyo.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/47E8FB2E-D1C9-44DC-B2D1-8407BBEF83A8_zpsmog1txyo.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: Carbon_Dude on April 29, 2016, 09:48:18 PM
Is the fix a new bushing bolt that you cut down to 8mm?  I'm not sure if I understand how you fixed the problem.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on April 30, 2016, 12:14:00 AM
Is the fix a new bushing bolt that you cut down to 8mm?  I'm not sure if I understand how you fixed the problem.

I had a couple of old bushing bolts in the correct diameter but they were too long so I cut them down to 21 mm length. The bushing bolts that came with my 036 are only 17 mm long meaning that all load is only on the outside part of the fork. Also, the bushing bolts that came with my frame were some 0.15 mm too small in diameter causing a lot of free play in the bushings thus adding to the flex issue. Not only does it destroy the fork quickly but i do also create a huge amount of flex in the triangle. After I did my emergency repair, I have reduced the flex significantly.

I must say that the quality of the frame I got from Peter sucks and I'm now seriously considering what to do next, If Peter accept the warranty and provide me with a new lower part of the triangle as well as new bushing bolts all around, I might keep the frame. Other vice I might bite the dust and buy a name brand frame  :-\
 
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: kaiser on April 30, 2016, 10:10:23 PM
Faaaak I only just built up a CS-36 from Peter. I did notice the flex in the rear triangle if I push/pull from the top of the wheel but Im not sure what is right and what is not. For example with a 2.2 rear wheel, I can nearly touch the rubber against the triangle. However I can see most of the triangle flex and I have no "play" in any of the linkages and they look firm but now that you have found your bushing bolt problem Ill have a look at mine.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: kaiser on May 01, 2016, 12:07:59 AM
I had a look at my bushings and not as bad as yours. Although at approx 17mm in length and 8mm in diameter, the bush is almost through and about a millimetre or 2 short of reaching the other side. So some of its end is holding the carbon part but not all of it. The total diameter that the bushing needs to go through is approx 20mm. I think a 21mm bushing would be to long. I tightened all the bushings and bolts for all the linkages and it feels I still have flex. It is a little better but not by much. I should upload a video to youtube but I need another pair of hands to help with the recording.

Can you keep us updated on what happens with Peter regarding new bushs, bolts and rear triangle. I to might need longer bushings to get it right.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 01, 2016, 12:25:04 AM
I had a look at my bushings and not as bad as yours. Although at approx 17mm in length and 8mm in diameter, the bush is almost through and about a millimetre or 2 short of reaching the other side. So some of its end is holding the carbon part but not all of it. The total diameter that the bushing needs to go through is approx 20mm. I think a 21mm bushing would be to long. I tightened all the bushings and bolts for all the linkages and it feels I still have flex. It is a little better but not by much. I should upload a video to youtube but I need another pair of hands to help with the recording.

Can you keep us updated on what happens with Peter regarding new bushs, bolts and rear triangle. I to might need longer bushings to get it right.

I guess that there could be slight variances in the width of the fork from frame to frame. My bushing bolt needs to be 21 mm in order to seat perfectly. My bushing inner diameter is 8 mm sharp but outside diameter of the bushing bolt was only 7.84 mm, giving a free play of more than 1 1/2 tenth of a mm witch is way too much. If your bushing bolt is too short you will force the 2 half's of the fork together putting a lot of strength on the carbon and causing the shims to "grind" on the inside of the fork - That's what happened to mine. Bear in mind that there is a lot of force involved in that particular joint.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 11, 2016, 11:43:15 PM
More than 2 weeks gone by and as of now but nothing but lame excuses from Peter :( To be absolutely honest, I do not see any of the support/responsibility from Peter that this site have highlighted - As a matter of fact that was the reason why I bought from Peter and not from any other vendor on Aliexpress.

Peter sold me a poorly manufactured product and so far no support to fix the issue :(


Karsten 
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: Carbon_Dude on May 12, 2016, 06:33:15 AM
What are you asking him to do for you?  What reasons has he given for not helping you?
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 12, 2016, 08:41:14 AM
What are you asking him to do for you?  What reasons has he given for not helping you?


I'm kindly asking for new bushing bolts in the correct length and a new piece of the lower part of the chain stay - funny enough there was n reaction shortly after this..... Even after very well documented damage, they now want me to pay for the return of the damaged chain stay before they decide what to do. That mean that I will be without MTB for one month during the main riding season. I know that all you guys are praising this guy/company but from my perspective the service so far have been lousy :(

Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: Carbon_Dude on May 12, 2016, 12:40:54 PM
I totally understand.  Personally, I think it comes down to what are your expectations.  I had high expectations for one of my local bike shops but ended up with terrible service, the owner lying to me about what he did to fix my bike, and what parts were replaced.  In that case, I lost all respect for that shop.  On the other hand, I've gotten good service from online bike stores in the US.  I know that ordering something from China is always somewhat of a risk.  If I have a problem, I expect I may need to pay shipping costs to something replaced.  I've had a few things from China replaced, half the time I paid shipping, and half the time they paid the shipping.  However, I remember that I didn't pay 4X more for the item, so I'm ahead whether I paid shipping or not.

I think you have a fair point kastenhorn, if they installed the wrong bolts in your frame, I'd think they need to send you replacements.  I think there is an expectation that the frame will at least be assembled correctly.  As for the wear on the frame is a result of the bolts being too short, then maybe they need to replace the frame as well.  Some companies would replace your entire frame, no questions asked, however those are usually the companies that charge 2X-4X for a carbon frame in the first place.  I know the Chinese vendors work on very thin margins so I'd expect their warranty may not be as good ask it would be on a $3,000 frame from my local bike shop.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 13, 2016, 12:13:14 AM
I know that I cannot expect the same quality as a S-Works frame and I know that I cannot expect the same service as if I spent 3000$. If that was the case I would have demanded a brand new frame right away. Here I'm kindly asking for 4 new correct sized Bushing bolts and a small minor part of the frame. Its now more than 14 days since I highlighted the issue but still no bolts on the way to me. The vendor that is being exposed here a lot, have had a few excuses why no time to handle my reasonable request but then I see him post about his painted frames here on the site. I mean, if you post here you must also have time to take care of issues with your customers......

My point is that the vendor have been praised here a lot due to the fact that he supposedly provide service and that was the sole reason why I bought from him in the first place, unfortunately I have yet to see any of that service :(

I have even told him that I was in market for 2 carbon wheel sets but he have not paid any attention to that and now that order will go to somebody else for sure. If I can't expect any service anyway, I might as well go for the best offer on eBay.

Karsten
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: PeterXu on May 13, 2016, 01:05:06 AM
I have to say that Karsten, you are a little unlucky.  We (and our factory) had several May Day holidays from April 30th through May 3rd, then we ( and factory ) went to Shanghai due to the International cycle show (May 6th through 9th). I passed your pictures and problem with frame to factory when I got first email from you, but no response from factory, what should I do ? I had to wait for response from our factory first and I told you even our factory wouldn't offer replacement, then I will, what you need to do is just be more patient. And I told you our factory need you to send the chainstay back.  Usually the warranty process is like this: issue happened - taking pictures and describing what problem is - we pass pictures and descibtions to factory - waiting response from factory and they will decide if they need customer to send the parts back or not - if yes, then sending replacement after checking out the returned parts and the issue was caused by quality itself.

Factory decides if they need customer to send back the warranty issue parts, not our company. Since factoy thinks that some guys may  get their bicycle crashed, and their frames, wheels and other parts may get cracked, even worse, but they tell us the problems were caused by our products' "low" quality.

So it depends, but we offer replacements under almost issues. Anyway, you should be patient, nobody wants this happened, Karsten.

And all our bolts sizes are same on all 036 FS 29er frames. I will send you 4 new ones.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: Jerryno on May 13, 2016, 03:18:26 AM
@ PeterXu

The customer has business with you, not with the factory. If you set your business quality to be dependent on the factory, then you cannot control this and will be bad for your business.

You have $100 bigger margins than your cheaper competition. I suggest from this buy some frames to have for spare parts or when customer needs replacement. Also there are not that many things to check on a frame to see if it is good quality - you should check every frame and not send any that has flaws. You should know the product you sell well and you should know what to check on it. If you send a frame with short bolts it was your responsibility, not the factory.

If you only relay the problem to the factory, you are only a middleman, you have no extra costs (other than communication) from such customer service and ultimately you are not financially motivated to send good product.

I believe you provide the best communication experience, you probably get the better frames from the factory, but you only provide the same customer service as the factory when something goes wrong. For people in US, Europe, etc. such service is not enough and they are willing to pay more to have a better one.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 13, 2016, 03:38:46 AM
I have to say that Karsten, you are a little unlucky.  We (and our factory) had several May Day holidays from April 30th through May 3rd, then we ( and factory ) went to Shanghai due to the International cycle show (May 6th through 9th). I passed your pictures and problem with frame to factory when I got first email from you, but no response from factory, what should I do ? I had to wait for response from our factory first and I told you even our factory wouldn't offer replacement, then I will, what you need to do is just be more patient. And I told you our factory need you to send the chainstay back.  Usually the warranty process is like this: issue happened - taking pictures and describing what problem is - we pass pictures and descibtions to factory - waiting response from factory and they will decide if they need customer to send the parts back or not - if yes, then sending replacement after checking out the returned parts and the issue was caused by quality itself.

Factory decides if they need customer to send back the warranty issue parts, not our company. Since factoy thinks that some guys may  get their bicycle crashed, and their frames, wheels and other parts may get cracked, even worse, but they tell us the problems were caused by our products' "low" quality.

So it depends, but we offer replacements under almost issues. Anyway, you should be patient, nobody wants this happened, Karsten.

And all our bolts sizes are same on all 036 FS 29er frames. I will send you 4 new ones.




Honestly Peter, I did not buy the frame from the factory but you, whatever factory decides cannot fall back on me :(

Fact is the following came from you when I bought the frame, a frame assembled with bushing bolts about 3 mm too short and about 0.15 mm too narrow in diameter.

The new bolts you are sending should be around 20.5 mm in length and 7.95 to 7.97 mm in diameter - Please check that before sending them out !


Just to recap what happened, after only a few hundred km's of easy riding I was experiencing more and more play in the lower joint close to the rear axle and this is what I found:

Hear is a picture of the bushing bolt still sitting in the frame and it is very clear that its only supporting on the outside of the fork, making the upper part of the chain stay(the part that connects to the rear shock absorber) twist and rub the outer inside part of the fork:

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/F8BC1DFD-C34F-44EF-8337-93CD23C917D7_zpsmj7vtabp.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/F8BC1DFD-C34F-44EF-8337-93CD23C917D7_zpsmj7vtabp.jpg.html)

Here is a picture of the bushing bolt itself where you can see the length of the bushing bolt and it is also VERY clear to see the, based on the rub mark, that all the force have been only onthe outside part of the bolt:

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/AD3C352B-96E6-468B-952E-0650F4ED76A9_zpsnilrrthf.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/AD3C352B-96E6-468B-952E-0650F4ED76A9_zpsnilrrthf.jpg.html)

Here is a picture of the outside diameter of the bushing bolt clearly shoving around 7.84 mm. The bushing in the upper part is 8.02 mm giving more than 0.15 mm of free play witch is a LOT and contribute to the "loose" feeling of the rear end:

 (http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/C1C1FF88-270E-437B-8342-664668172C1B_zps9punipok.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/C1C1FF88-270E-437B-8342-664668172C1B_zps9punipok.jpg.html)

Here is a picture of the lower left inside part of the fork where it is very very clear to see cracks and carbon breaking up in big pieces - bear in mind that this is caused after only a couple of hundred km. The reason for the cracks and breaking up is due to the fact that the upper part is twisting inside the fork and the inside shim on the outside is grinding inside the carbon:

(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a419/karstenhorn/cycling/A7C72C21-231A-47F1-896E-75A0384021D6_zpsrggarut8.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/karstenhorn/media/cycling/A7C72C21-231A-47F1-896E-75A0384021D6_zpsrggarut8.jpg.html)

From my perspective you don't have to be an Einstein Engineer to analyse what happened and the fact that your "factory" want it back before decision whether warranty or not, I simply find ridiculous and must be with the sole purpose of hoping that I give up on the hassle ahead of me :(

Try to see it from my side, I spent a lot of money and time putting this bike together and most importantly, I'm in the middle of my main riding season and now you are requesting me to dismantle my frame and stuff should start to flow back and forth between China and Denmark taking months. If your store is a responsible one, you should ship me the correct bolts as well as a new painted lower part of the chain stay immediately and then I would ship the wrong bolts as well as the damaged chain stay part back to you.

Even the fact that I have to write numerous mails in order to argue for my rights makes me kind of annoyed and it clearly tells me what I'm up against :( 

Karsten
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: carbonazza on May 13, 2016, 04:14:12 AM
Karsten, we buy direct (well almost), as Carbon_dude said, their margin are thin, it is cheaper for us but it has risks.

I followed the same process described by Peter, with a crack that appeared at the back of the seat stay of my CS-041.
Sent pictures, cut the part and sent it back. Wait. Then wait patiently. And received a new frame.
So for me Peter and his factory stand behind their product.
Just the "buy direct" make it more complicated and takes weeks.

At the same time I went to an even worse hassle for a warranty repair of my Lefty by Cannondale.

These experiences made me realise I needed two frames/fork if I want to ride without interruption.
Switching the parts between them if needed.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: PeterXu on May 13, 2016, 04:16:56 AM
@ PeterXu

The customer has business with you, not with the factory. If you set your business quality to be dependent on the factory, then you cannot control this and will be bad for your business.

You have $100 bigger margins than your cheaper competition. I suggest from this buy some frames to have for spare parts or when customer needs replacement. Also there are not that many things to check on a frame to see if it is good quality - you should check every frame and not send any that has flaws. You should know the product you sell well and you should know what to check on it. If you send a frame with short bolts it was your responsibility, not the factory.

If you only relay the problem to the factory, you are only a middleman, you have no extra costs (other than communication) from such customer service and ultimately you are not financially motivated to send good product.

I believe you provide the best communication experience, you probably get the better frames from the factory, but you only provide the same customer service as the factory when something goes wrong. For people in US, Europe, etc. such service is not enough and they are willing to pay more to have a better one.

Thanks for your suggestion, Jerry. I am running business, I know I need to offer best service. And I had personally promised him that I would offer him replacement chainstay for sure since he bought the frame from me, not from our factory, but I need response from our factory as well.  And as I said, we had holidays and then were focused on cycle show for past few days, I am so sorry we can not make everyone happy in any time with our service, if you got problem with your frame or rims during Chinese New Year holiday, you might get crazy :)

And we pay more than other competitors on better quality frames, so I don't have extra $100 margin more than those competitors, and you guys get what you pay for, but you should know our products are not big brands, and even big brands, their products sometimes have these issues also, but they have more than 100% margin so that they can offer replacement immediately. 
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 13, 2016, 04:59:29 AM
Karsten, we buy direct (well almost), as Carbon_dude said, their margin are thin, it is cheaper for us but it has risks.

I followed the same process described by Peter, with a crack that appeared at the back of the seat stay of my CS-041.
Sent pictures, cut the part and sent it back. Wait. Then wait patiently. And received a new frame.
So for me Peter and his factory stand behind their product.
Just the "buy direct" make it more complicated and takes weeks.

At the same time I went to an even worse hassle for a warranty repair of my Lefty by Cannondale.

These experiences made me realise I needed two frames/fork if I want to ride without interruption.
Switching the parts between them if needed.

I fully understand that we are not up against a known brand, however I could have bought my IP-036 100$ + free shipping(I paid another 80$ for shipping) cheaper from Aliexpress directly knowing that I was 100% on my own in case of issues. I decided to buy from Peter as I could read here that there was good service on his products. what I have seen so far is not good service - Its not about replacing a frame but only a minor part of it + 4 bolts, My frame is literately brand new and defective out the door. My issue is very well documented and still they want me to send all parts back first before they will decide anything - When I bought my frame I was not advised to buy 2 up front due to the fact that quality is so bad that it will fail sooner or later :(

For Peter its not if you get issues with the products you sell its a matter of when - This situation could have been handled differently from Peter when he got my first mail, he could have said "I'm sorry" and shipped me the new parts right away. This arguing back is not good for neither me nor his future business and in the end I will end up with the parts or Peter will end up with some bad reputation.

As a matter of fact I have a mail from Peter sent yesterday that he would ship a new chain stay + bushing bolts right away and I thought all was good - 10 min later I receive another mail from Peter saying now stating that I have to return the defective parts first due to the claim from the "factory" Hell, I did not buy from factory but from Peter !!

Again, we are talking minor parts and not a whole frame.........

Karsten

Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 13, 2016, 05:14:05 AM
@ PeterXu

The customer has business with you, not with the factory. If you set your business quality to be dependent on the factory, then you cannot control this and will be bad for your business.

You have $100 bigger margins than your cheaper competition. I suggest from this buy some frames to have for spare parts or when customer needs replacement. Also there are not that many things to check on a frame to see if it is good quality - you should check every frame and not send any that has flaws. You should know the product you sell well and you should know what to check on it. If you send a frame with short bolts it was your responsibility, not the factory.

If you only relay the problem to the factory, you are only a middleman, you have no extra costs (other than communication) from such customer service and ultimately you are not financially motivated to send good product.

I believe you provide the best communication experience, you probably get the better frames from the factory, but you only provide the same customer service as the factory when something goes wrong. For people in US, Europe, etc. such service is not enough and they are willing to pay more to have a better one.

Thanks for your suggestion, Jerry. I am running business, I know I need to offer best service. And I had personally promised him that I would offer him replacement chainstay for sure since he bought the frame from me, not from our factory, but I need response from our factory as well.  And as I said, we had holidays and then were focused on cycle show for past few days, I am so sorry we can not make everyone happy in any time with our service, if you got problem with your frame or rims during Chinese New Year holiday, you might get crazy :)

And we pay more than other competitors on better quality frames, so I don't have extra $100 margin more than those competitors, and you guys get what you pay for, but you should know our products are not big brands, and even big brands, their products sometimes have these issues also, but they have more than 100% margin so that they can offer replacement immediately.

Quite funny that you just edited this post from initially stating that you offered me a free new chain stay to removed it again - What was the reason for that ?
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: bxcc on May 13, 2016, 07:35:29 AM
Here is an option. What if Karstenhorn buys the replacement parts for a small fee and waits for them to arrive. Once they arrive, he then sends the faulty parts back to Peter. While Peter sorts the mess out with the factory, Karstenhorn can be riding his bike. Once the situation is resolved, Peter can then refund the money for the parts purchase. Or send some replacements and karstenhorn would have a spare in case something happens in the future. There will still be some down time until the replacements arrive but no one will be out any significant money and Karstenhorn will be riding sooner. I know it's not the best solution but there is minimal risk on both ends. If the factory can't replace them, at least the bike is up and running and Karstenhorn isn't out $750 or more on an unusable frame.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 13, 2016, 10:11:20 AM
Here is an option. What if Karstenhorn buys the replacement parts for a small fee and waits for them to arrive. Once they arrive, he then sends the faulty parts back to Peter. While Peter sorts the mess out with the factory, Karstenhorn can be riding his bike. Once the situation is resolved, Peter can then refund the money for the parts purchase. Or send some replacements and karstenhorn would have a spare in case something happens in the future. There will still be some down time until the replacements arrive but no one will be out any significant money and Karstenhorn will be riding sooner. I know it's not the best solution but there is minimal risk on both ends. If the factory can't replace them, at least the bike is up and running and Karstenhorn isn't out $750 or more on an unusable frame.

For a start I find it wrong that I have to pay for something that I truly believe should be a no-nonsense task. If Peter wants a deposit prior to shipping of the new parts that clearly are defective/wrong, fine by me but hello - Is that fair ?

Karsten
 
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: bxcc on May 13, 2016, 10:45:55 AM

For a start I find it wrong that I have to pay for something that I truly believe should be a no-nonsense task. If Peter wants a deposit prior to shipping of the new parts that clearly are defective/wrong, fine by me but hello - Is that fair ?

Karsten

I'm not saying I would be super excited about this option either, just that for me it would be acceptable. Well that depends on the cost of the chainstay. I would hope that it would be well under $100 and that would be acceptable to me to get it up and running in a timely fashion. I've had two Santa Cruz frames break. They have great customer service and took care of me quickly. But I still had to send the frame back on my dime before they would send a new one. Thankfully the second time I was able to cut the BB area out and send in just the BB shell with the serial number on it. But back on track, I do agree that for something like this, it should have went smoother.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: gangels on May 23, 2016, 10:14:00 PM
Bought a 057 from xmcarbon this winter and built it up this spring. 4 rides in a crack appeared in the center of the top tube.

Some correspondence and exchange of pictures with Peter and he is sending out a new frame. You would be hard pressed to get customer service like that from any American company. I had friends wait 6 months to replace their carbon frames from US companies. Disappointed the crack appeared but Peter was quick to rectify.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: RS VR6 on May 23, 2016, 10:58:31 PM
Bought a 057 from xmcarbon this winter and built it up this spring. 4 rides in a crack appeared in the center of the top tube.

Some correspondence and exchange of pictures with Peter and he is sending out a new frame. You would be hard pressed to get customer service like that from any American company. I had friends wait 6 months to replace their carbon frames from US companies. Disappointed the crack appeared but Peter was quick to rectify.

For real? Come on now. I had a paint crack on the top tube of my Cervelo S2. I had a new frame within two weeks.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: JohnSpeed on May 23, 2016, 11:41:50 PM
For real? Come on now. I had a paint crack on the top tube of my Cervelo S2. I had a new frame within two weeks.

Not sure what you mean by "for real?".. are you implying that it's unreasonable to say that you wouldn't get that kind of service from an American company? If so, I agree that is a bit of a generalization, but in my experience, its pretty accurate.  Of course not all companies,  mainly the larger ones. Many of them even outsource warranty services. Perhaps the more accurate statement would be don't assume bc you buy from a name brand that warranty service will be superior.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: RS VR6 on May 24, 2016, 01:30:07 AM
I'm saying that is a pretty big exaggeration.

Friend of mine had some paint chip on the dropout of his Specialized Roubaix. Bike shop emailed the pics to Specialized...they sent him a new frame. I find that it's more uncommon for big brand to give bad customer service.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: JohnSpeed on May 24, 2016, 07:09:24 AM
I'm saying that is a pretty big exaggeration.

Friend of mine had some paint chip on the dropout of his Specialized Roubaix. Bike shop emailed the pics to Specialized...they sent him a new frame. I find that it's more uncommon for big brand to give bad customer service.

Yeah , fair point but I have seen it go both ways. I think that's the advantages of a bike shop.. dealing with Specialized yourself would be far less effective I bet. But yeah.. your point stands.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: two-one on May 27, 2016, 11:04:29 AM
So, has anyone got an IP-036 with longer bolts yet? I've got a FM036 (same frame) with short bolts, and I would like to improve the stiffness by replacing the 17x7.85mm bolts by some 19x8mm ones.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: pyre on May 27, 2016, 11:38:13 AM
I pulled mine and have the same problem as karstenhorn.  Only one side of the bolt has visible contact with bearing/pivot. Initially I thought the noises and flexing were due to a lack of spacers on either side of the bearings, but on closer inspection its the pivot bolt only contacting one side. 

Karstenhorn, where did you get those longer "sex bolts"?  I have searched the internet and hardware supply stores and have come up empty handed.   
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 27, 2016, 11:40:06 AM
So, has anyone got an IP-036 with longer bolts yet? I've got a FM036 (same frame) with short bolts, and I would like to improve the stiffness by replacing the 17x7.85mm bolts by some 19x8mm ones.

Any suggestions?

I do have new bolts under way from Peter(as well as a new chainstay) but I do need longer bolts than 19 mm. The chainstay I have right now would need 20.5 mm bolts in order to sit perfectly. What I did was to get some other bolts originally intended for a rear shock installation and I shortened them in order to fit my chainstay. My best guess is that there is a difference in the overall thickness of the lower rear fork on the 036 chainstay and only one size of bolts.....

Karsten
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: two-one on May 27, 2016, 01:48:50 PM
I do have new bolts under way from Peter(as well as a new chainstay) but I do need longer bolts than 19 mm. The chainstay I have right now would need 20.5 mm bolts in order to sit perfectly. What I did was to get some other bolts originally intended for a rear shock installation and I shortened them in order to fit my chainstay. My best guess is that there is a difference in the overall thickness of the lower rear fork on the 036 chainstay and only one size of bolts.....

Karsten
I'm very curious about your new bolts, don't forget to measure them before you mount hem :)
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: Patrick C. on May 27, 2016, 04:01:17 PM
McMaster Carr has them, around $4 per set.  There should be a similar industrial supply website in other countries.  Also try searching for "binding posts".


These are in inch sizes, so you'd need the 5/16" (7.94 mm) OD barrels.  They have 3/4", 7/8", and 1" lengths (19, 22, and 25 mm).   You may need to grind down the end or put a washer under the head to get the correct length.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#sex-bolts/=12lhuor
(http://www.mcmaster.com/mva/library/20130902/92463a415l.gif)
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 30, 2016, 03:07:03 AM
McMaster Carr has them, around $4 per set.  There should be a similar industrial supply website in other countries.  Also try searching for "binding posts".


These are in inch sizes, so you'd need the 5/16" (7.94 mm) OD barrels.  They have 3/4", 7/8", and 1" lengths (19, 22, and 25 mm).   You may need to grind down the end or put a washer under the head to get the correct length.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#sex-bolts/=12lhuor
(http://www.mcmaster.com/mva/library/20130902/92463a415l.gif)

Thanks for the tip and btw they could also be used for the rear shock mounting bolts(longer version). Do anyone have experience if they are precision made or if there are tolerances to be expected ?

As a matter of fact the rear shock bolts that came with my 036 was completely useless as they were about 4 mm too short - I solved that issue buying some bolts for a Ghost frame via Bike24.com

Karsten
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: carbonazza on May 30, 2016, 03:31:31 AM
Hello Karsten,
Could you please post the link from bike24.com ?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on May 30, 2016, 04:30:01 AM
Hello Karsten,
Could you please post the link from bike24.com ?
Thanks.

Sure, this kit fits in the 036 linkage together with my Manitou rear shock - I had to arjust the length of the bushing bolts a bit but no big deal: https://www.bike24.de/p1133690.html

Karsten
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: carbonazza on May 30, 2016, 02:35:02 PM
Thanks. It is strange that nobody had this issue before.
I just ordered a 036 for my brother, so I'll order this with all the pieces, and return it if not needed.
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: Patrick C. on May 30, 2016, 10:53:43 PM
Karsten-
Sorry, no idea how tight their tolerances are.  My guess is that on the diameter they are fairly good (+/-0.25 mm?) but I would be looking for a backup plan until I got the bolts. :)
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: OffRoadTriGuy on December 28, 2016, 07:30:13 AM
Im thinking of getting a 036 soon. Which bolts did you end up buying? And

Thanks. It is strange that nobody had this issue before.
I just ordered a 036 for my brother, so I'll order this with all the pieces, and return it if not needed.

Did you need the new bolts? Was the frame bolts still too small?
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: karstenhorn on December 29, 2016, 01:28:46 AM
Im thinking of getting a 036 soon. Which bolts did you end up buying? And

Thanks. It is strange that nobody had this issue before.
I just ordered a 036 for my brother, so I'll order this with all the pieces, and return it if not needed.

Did you need the new bolts? Was the frame bolts still too small?

If you are not a very light person or if you ride the 036 like it is intended to be - You should reconsider your choice of frame. In my opinion the flex in the rear triangle is just too much.

Karsten
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: turboenterprise on June 12, 2017, 07:26:02 AM
Did you find a place to get new bushing bolts? I snapped the head off the small screw on mine. Peter says they don't have them anymore. 
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: adbl on June 12, 2017, 02:55:01 PM
Hey people, i have been following this thread for a while now and i have some thoughts that I'd like to share. I bought a CS-057 hardtail from Peter. Upon deciding what frame to build (i already have a Giant FS 26er) i relied a ton posts here on Chinertown. I bought the CS-057 mostly based on the fact it was my first China frame and didn't know what to expect. I figured a hardtail would be a safer choice.

It is apparent the quality control of the FS frames is not up to name brand specs. Yes, the frame designs and geometry are more in step with what's going on in the industry but there is a reason these Chinese frames are a fraction of the cost as name brands. The quality control just isn't there. With FS frames there are numerous connection points and the issues are not with the hardware it's with the consistency of the carbon construction. There is no way in hell these manufacturers are going to hand fit bolts to go with each individual frame. They are going to supply you with the hardware that should fit. If it doesn't it's because of the variances in the layup process.

So, having said all of that, my suggestion to anyone buying a FS China frame would be to totally take apart the frame, inspect the suspension points and be prepared to custom fit all of the hardware yourself. If you feel you don't have the knowledge or tools or ability to perform this work yourself then DO NOT buy a China FS frame. Plain and simple!!!
Title: Re: Design flaw/quality issue IP-036
Post by: Carbon_Dude on June 12, 2017, 09:00:44 PM
I had an IP-036 for nearly 3 years, put several hundred miles on the frame, sold it about a year ago, and it's still going strong with the second owner.  The frame only cost $700, not $3,000 like the big brand frames so for me, spending 1/4 the cost and still getting a decent frame that didn't give me any troubles was worth the effort.  Not saying there haven't been some buyers that haven't been 100% happy with the IP-036 but my experience was a positive one.  The only reason I sold my IP-036 and IP-056 was I wanted something different that, at the time, wasn't offered in a Chinese frameset.