Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: SportingGoods on July 06, 2016, 03:17:46 AM
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Hi everyone!
This is more a teaser then anything else for now :)
I'm going to upgrade my current MTB soon to Full Suspension. I used to temporarily convert this 29" hardtail into a road bike in the winter (going down to sub-8kg). I was swapping fork (26" MTB carbon rigid fork), wheels (ZTR Crest equipped with Durano 28mm), dropper post (Carbon post) and doing a bit of change in the chain ring.
That was too much work!
So I have decided to permanently convert this hardtail into a disc road bike. I plan to do it properly 8). I have already decided that I'll order:
- a carbon dropbar (B6 from Peter), for a real road bike look!
- Tubular rims, (RM30T-23 from Carbon Speed as well). My wheel sub-plan is the following:
* take the very light Novatec D711/D712 regular hubs from my current MTB wheelset (converting those to Boost hubs)
* Add the super light tubular rims
* Use superlight DT Swiss Aerolight spokes
The wheelset will end up under 1.3kg, which is nice for carbon rims. If you add the gain of tubular vs. tire+tube, I loose over 700g in the wheels compared to my current road setup. That's MASSIVE difference at the most critical place.
I've not placed any order yet but I'll keep this post updated with thoughts and decisions :)
As I'll be transferring most of the equipment to the full-sus frame I will also need to buy:
Drivetrain + brake: unsure if I go with cable or hydraulic brakes. It will be a real road group for sure. Mechanical disc would allow to buy a complete group, which is usually cheaper then buying separate. I would just have to add the mechanical calipers.
EDIT: After looking into some other posts related to disc road bike I think I will go mechanic disc brake instead of hydraulic. The reason is that hydraulic now uses a different mount system (flat mount). I plan on selecting Ultegra drivetrain (Dura-Ace is over what I want to spend). After looking at the weight of these components, I'm heading to a bike below 7.1kg (w/o pedals) for a cost around €1000.00 (parts to buy only, not including parts that are my MTB for now).
It's probably as good as I need!!
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I'm very interested to see how it goes :)
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I just got a "bike fever" 8) I have started to acquire parts for this road disc bike.
And talking about disc, I have finally selected the disc brake. No! better then that, I have selected the best disc brakes. I decided to not go with hydaulic brakes for multiple reasons (high cost, weight, flat mount). I was about to buy Spyre calipers, the best mechanical one, but ultimately ran into this beauty:
(http://www.edgesportsuk.com/store/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/j/u/juin-tech-box-front.jpg)
http://www.edgesportsuk.com/store/juin-tech-r1-hydraulic-cable-pull-disc-brake-set-cyclocross.html
They are now my precious and should be with me in the next 2 weeks. Those are cable actuated hydro calipers. They offer both the power and modulation of hydro with the simplicity of cable shifters. They are very light too, 142g/caliper. Not too expensive either.
I have also found a good deal on an Ultegra 6800 11sp Group. 579€. And I will resell the rim brake (probably 80€). I have selected a compact 50/34 crankset with a 11-28 cassette (my main usage will be riding mountains - I'm 40 km from the famous Alpes d'Huez, and right at the foot of another very difficult mountain).
So, I will end up with a high level disc group for about 680€. Not too bad (Ultegra shifter/hydro brake is 600€ the pair, just the shifter and calipers, not the complete group!).
Oh, and I have also ordered my tubulars. They should look beautiful with a red accent. Vittoria corsa evo CX III. 80€ the pair.
(http://media3.alltricks.fr/medium/5536203755959.jpg)
http://www.alltricks.fr/F-11936-pneus/P-83456-vittoria_boyau_corsa_evo_cx_iii_700x23_noir_rouge
Still waiting on feedback from Peter to proceed with my order for the rims and dropbar.
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Hi guys!
Earlier then I thought, parts start to come in. I've received my brake calipers from UK today. They are just as described:
- Comes with all you need. 2x adapters (I don't need it, my fork/frame are already set for 160 mm), long and short bolts, 2x 160 mm discs (119g each), bolts for discs.
- Calipers weight 143g each.
(https://s31.postimg.org/bm4oj40zv/IMG_2516.jpg)
Mounted on my rigid carbon fork, so far so good!
(https://s31.postimg.org/sdqx4vemj/IMG_2517.jpg)
And I have processed my order to CarbonSpeed for a B6 dropbar and 30 mm deep tubular rims (all-around rims, not too small, not too heavy). Peter is really nice, he understood what I was doing so asked me if I want the basalt brake surface. I confirmed I don't need any. You would not expect such a high level of service from many people.
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I never thought cable disc brake could be any good.
I just replaced them on a kid's Trek by some cheap Shimano hydro, and my kid is very happy of the effortless braking.
You say cost and weight, but another advantage could be to have much more compatible cable brake levers/shifters available.
I'm curious about their modularity and how they perform in your roads.
A friend just came back from the Alps, and told me he spent most of his descending time braking to stay below a safe 60km/h
Great brakes seem vital there :)
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My first disc brake were Hayes mechanical. Not good! Only one piston (so either the disc rubs against the fixed one or is bent when braking). Not much power nor modulation. Really not good.
As you mention, my first motivation to go with cable is that it's a lot more standard (I could buy high-end levers for a very decent cost - Ultegra ; the mount is similar to MTB calipers - when hydro road calipers have a strange flat mount).
Then, these hydro/cable calipers have a very good review
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/components/brake-calipers/product/review-juin-tech-r1-brakes-50248/
Unfortunately I won't be able to provide any feedback before September. I'll be traveling to Missouri next week and will be on vacation most of August. But I should be more then fine as I will be using them with 160 mm rotors (the standard for my frame and fork, no adapter needed) when road standard is 140 mm.
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Another big delivery today! Actually 2.
Ultegra group is now at home. The good thing is that it is awesome, so nice looking and light. Some components are even lighter then planned (like an 87g front derailleur :o). See some pictures of me weighting each component (I don't post all pictures :) ).
50/34 compact crankset
(https://s31.postimg.org/gdk9nc3ez/IMG_2522.jpg)
11/28 cassette
(https://s32.postimg.org/8xbcqehd1/IMG_2524.jpg)
Beautiful levers (weighted with shifting cables)
(https://s31.postimg.org/xzaobn82j/IMG_2528.jpg)
The sad thing is that I had missed one obvious part in my component listing. The brake cables/housing were not included in any weight recorded. They were part of the Ultegra group though... and they weight a lot. About 180g. I'm now heading to 7.2 kg total bike (w/o pedals). Still not bad!
The second box was my tubs. 520g the pair, 20g heavier then announced, still pretty light and nice looking.
(https://s31.postimg.org/bvceqticr/IMG_2518.jpg)
PS I also had a SRAM GX 11 speed shifter in this box that I am returning to the shop as I have ordered my Eagle group for my MTB.
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11/28 cassette
That is quite brave, to ride in the Alps.
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Well, not really brave. I took a long time to think about it and discuss with friends, read forum. The conclusion is that almost no one uses both a compact chainring (50/34) and a long range cassette 11/32 for the Alps. Here is what people do (as I understand):
- Most people don't use a compact, because they don't live in the mountain and don't need it.
- Most people who do have a compact use it with a very short range cassette. This way they benefit from a well staged cassette but don't have to push too hard on the hills (with 34 chainring)
- People who visit the Alps change either their cassette (for a 11-32), or the chainring (not always as low as 34). Not both.
So, as I live in the Alps I thought I had to go with a compact (I'll use the 34 very often), but 11-32 cassette would be an overkill (in France we call it "ceinture-bretelle" :D that's wearing both a belt and suspenders :) ). But I will only know if it was the right decision after my first climb!
And it's an important decision because the RD that comes with the 11-32 cassette group is a medium cage when the one of the 11-28 group comes in short cage.
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The last delivery before my vacation! The rest (frame, dropbar) will be at the end of August.
So, this came from Smud-Carbon. Very nice looking parts. Not cheap, but still a very good cost/quality ratio.
Saddle is just amazing. Nice looking (custom painted) and crazy light.
(https://s31.postimg.org/4pflxiry3/IMG_2579.jpg)
Then, 2 parts for a full 3K/Glossy finish. The braze-on clamp (my frame is a MTB frame, not equipped) will look like it's part of the frame. The top-cap with a red bolt to match the design of the bike.
(https://s31.postimg.org/lkx390uln/IMG_2581.jpg)
(https://s32.postimg.org/d1g9ximj9/IMG_2580.jpg)
Just 2 comments about Smud-Carbon. No rush order! It takes weeks to order, get the parts made and shipped. And I was surprised to see the parts come into a bubblewrap envelop. This looks risky to me, but no damage with my parts. I just wonder what would have happen if the saddle had been damaged. Problems for sure...
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Smud makes really nice parts. But as you said, communication is quite hard(I tried for a longer seatpost), maybe they are overwhelmed by demands.
72g for a saddle... wow, that is very light
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I have received 2 boxes from Peter. One was my MTB Frame and hubs, but I also got some interesting things for my road bike...
B6 Bar. 190g. Really well made, with grippy section for the stem and levers, with a nice aero profile and routing for cables under the bar. Size is 42 cm. I already love it!!
(https://s22.postimg.org/wscuctjgh/IMG_2652.jpg)
Rims. 303g each. 30 mm deep, for tubular. I will fit those on my Novatec hubs currently on the MTB. I plan on DT aerolight spokes. See how nice the surface is, w/o brake surface.
(https://s22.postimg.org/ky1k2hpxd/IMG_2648.jpg)
(https://s21.postimg.org/mjakxj5xj/IMG_2649.jpg)
My plan for the wheels is to start with my MTB 29" ZTR, currently mounted with Durano 28 mm. This way I will still have one pair of wheels while I'll be building 4 wheels (these tubular and my boost MTB wheels)... :o
I will keep those for "gravel" type of rides. I'll use the Carbon tubular for real road ride (mountain).
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Progress Update:
I have just been enrolled (by a friend) into a 120 km road race! September 25th :o Better hurry!!
So I have started to put the bike together (before I get into the MTB):
(https://s17.postimg.org/3qglr3yfz/IMG_2688.jpg)
Big bummer, I never realized that road bike crank axle are a lot shorter then MTB... Ultegra cranks are already on "Leboncoin" (the french Craigslist).
(https://s4.postimg.org/yjj23ca8d/IMG_2689.jpg)
The plan now is to keep my XT cranks on the road bike and just buy chainrings (middle 34 and outer 48 teeth). I'll first run a test with 32-44 chainrings, then I'll buy the 34 and 48! With that... I'll have to buy a crankset for the MTB :)
As you see, those are my 29" wheels. No time yet to put together the carbon Tubular wheels.
EDITS: I forgot 2 important points for those who plan to do something similar (MTB frame used as road bike):
- Road Front derailleur are bottom pull. Most MTB frames are top pull. Won't work. My Ultegra FD is on "Leboncoin" as well... I use my MTB FD, that was going to be useless on the 1x MTB anyway.
- Hubs >:(. I've spent quite some time this week end to modify my free wheel (I'll have to do it again on the tubular wheels). MTB free wheel are all cross-compatible unless you use SRAM Xd driver, that's 9-10-11 speed. It's not true for road driver. 11 speed is wider then 9-10 speed. As there is no 11sp driver compatible with my hub I pulled out the file, and filed away 1.5 mm of each spline. I worked out a setup with my power tools, but it didn't work well, not precise enough. The file (the right one) is all you need, easy enough to remain straight and remove the same quantity of each spline.
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I've been considering doing something similar with my 057 if I ever decide to get a 29+ frame. I'm still just not sure about the drop bars though. I had a road bike for a couple of months that I ended up selling because the positioning was just too aggressive for me and I contributed/associated that with the drop bars but knowing more about bikes now, it was in large part simply due to the very aggressive geometry of the road bike, in general.. I've been thinking that maybe drop bars fitted to my 057 would be a bit more of a relaxed road cruiser type bike rather than an ass in the air road bike like the one I sold. Hmm.
Definitely sucks about the Ultegra cranks! Would've been nice to get them on. Maybe just getting some nice road rims and tires for my 057 would be the best route.
Interesting thread, thanks for sharing. Interested to hear your thoughts on how it rides.
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The file (the right one) is all you need, easy enough to remain straight and remove the same quantity of each spline.
Wow... that is a very brave, no fear, activity!
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I will post a ride report tomorrow (I forgot to buy a chain quick link :-[ and I had to mess multiple times with the Front derailleur, so I had to open the chain once closed. Now closed with a 9 speed quick link!).
But, as we say in France: "Voila!"
(https://s21.postimg.org/55s44xy4n/IMG_2691.jpg)
(https://s14.postimg.org/tsz0bar41/IMG_2690.jpg)
(https://s17.postimg.org/qemspfiu7/IMG_2693.jpg)
Very happy with the result. Very proud of it 8)
Now I really need to ride it!
EDIT: I forgot to post a drive-side of the bike. I like the look of the XT, even though I still miss the Ultegra... And that reminds me of one more important point:
I have used the middle/outer chainrings. Alignment is fine. No way to find 34 teeth on the small position anyway (64mm arms). I bought 48 and 34 (I had 44 and 32 in stock, too small). 50 is difficult to find, but 48 with a 11 sprocket is plenty fast, and the jump from one ring to the other will be better. Also, I could only find 48 ring in 9 speed. 10 speed is 46 max. That is not important, as the inner dimension of the chain is the same (9 to 11 speed), only the outside is different. So, we really don't care for the rings to be 9, 10 or 11 speed. I made sure to buy the same brand/speed for middle/out, as this is important, it enables a good sync while shifting.
(https://s16.postimg.org/cfa5h1ymt/IMG_2697.jpg)
(https://s21.postimg.org/rskq5dwnb/IMG_2696.jpg)
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Congrats! I look forward for the ride report :)
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Nice pics, the -057 makes for a nice looking road bike! If I still had my -057 and wanted something to ride on the road, I'd probably just buy a set of compatible road wheels and tires. I guess I'd also want a front derailleur and chainrings but then I'd need a new crank instead of the 1x specific crank I had on the bike. It all gets complicated really fast and I'd end up with extra parts to sell. Sometimes it's just easier to sell a bike and build a new bike.
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Thanks! This is actually a FR-202 frame, not a -057. Not sure what the difference is (I haven't seen -57 geometry).
I gave it a quick ride over lunch. It was just a short test ride (I still get a 9 speed quick link). It confirms:
- geometry looks good. Not too aggressive, not too relaxed
- 44 big chainring is too small. I'll get 48 tomorrow.
- B6 handlebar is very nice. The wide top area is really comfortable.
- saddle from smud-carbon is very comfortable too. It was a few minutes ride but I had regular shorts, and it pleased my bums :)
- I need to raise a bit my seatpost, adjust saddle then
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Wow nice job mate, that looks awesome. Wouldn't mind having something similar myself.
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You are right FR-211 is a bit different than the -057, but yes, your bike looks really good SportingGoods.
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Sorry, no ride report yet (I'll ride over lunch). I had to work some more on the bike yesterday, but I got it completed. I've installed the 48-34 chainrings (and the 11sp quick link). Then, shifting was not as good... ??? Tried to modify a bit the FD position, cable tension, but no, it would not shift properly. By the way, a road bike has some tensioners to adjust the FD, not a MTB. I need to buy one and add it at the end of the cable housing, right before the stop in the seat tube.
I was about to give up, consider that I need to buy a new FD (but why??) and then I observed what's going on. And I realized that the spacing in the front of the FD was too large (either you don't push enough on the left or you don't hold enough on the right). So I have bended the front of the FD plate to reduce the local spacing from 1.1 to 0.95 mm. And now it works perfectly! It really makes sense as it is a 9 speed FD (3x9, those with the largest plates that accommodate better the large chainring, and I had that in my stock!) and 9 speed chains are wider. An 11 speed chain needs a shorter spacing.
Anyway, here is how it looks like now (I bought French rings from " Specialites TA", very nice looking, not expensive at all).
(https://s10.postimg.org/gfd9g67fd/IMG_2700.jpg)
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I suspect that in a few episodes, you will use some piece of woods or rock to solve an issue :)
Congrats on beating so much adversities! The bike looks great.
Now the question is how does it ride?
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Here we go, ride report :)
(https://s12.postimg.org/qk0xqkl59/Screen_Shot_2016_09_08_at_14_06_42.png)
Numbers first:
- 42 km, 540 m climb (mostly at the end - not sure why it did not record properly the profile). An easy ride.
- 1:28:15, 28.2 km/h. That's 6 minutes faster then my best time (same wheels, same fork, flat bar, regular MTB drivetrain).
Numbers says it's a much better bike then the flat bar version of the same bike.
Feeling:
- I'm not a roady, I can't really compare and be smart (frame stiffness, power transfer, etc...).
- I felt great on the bike, could push strongly
- I never felt any pain in the back, neck. Actually this has removed a knee pain I had from not cycling (I'm serious)
- I'm aero enough when in the drops, no need for a more aggressive position
- I felt comfortable out of the saddle too
- I'm relaxed enough when on top of the bar (I really love this wide platform of the B6).
- Road cassette: what a joy to have short range cassette, 1 tooth at a time. Always in the right gear.
- 48-34 chainrings: I was most of the time on 48. I topped the 48/11 in the descent. I could do with a 50 but... why? I'd be 2% faster, maybe, but I appreciate to get the range I need with the 48 ring (maybe I would have to drop more often to the 34 with a 50). Then 34 ring with 28 sprocket seems plenty, I used the 34 for the final climb but only so that I could use the first 4 sprockets to maintain a speed >20 km/h (never moved to the upper side of the cassette). I anticipate to be OK in my local "Hors catégorie" climbs (but I'll wait a bit before I tackle that one).
- Brakes: honestly there is nothing to say for now. They enabled me to stop, slow down, just as I needed. Feeling is right. I haven't got close to their limit, so it's hard to say more then that.
- Tires: 28 mm is very comfortable. I'll still build the light 23 mm tubular for more hilly rides, I'll need it.
- Forgot to say that the smud-carbon saddle is incredible. More comfortable then my padded Selle Italia. I had the feeling to get my butt suspended in the air, feeling no pressure at all.
So feeling says it's a great bike that I'll enjoy riding.
Oh, finally, I will not be racing on this bike at the end of the month. My wife kindly reminded me that our daughter will play piano that day and that I will NOT be on my bike ;D
The good thing is that I will then take it easy and get started sooner on the CS-496 build (I still need to ride a bit, it was painful to not have a bike at home...).
EDIT: 2 more rides with this bike over the weekend. Still great:
- Saturday: gravel ride :)
I went for a short slow ride with the family (youngest is 6, so not fast!). We went on isolated roads, and then into some gravel trails along the river. The 28 mm tires were superb. They qualify for gravel riding :D
- Sunday: steep climb, fast descent
It was crazy hot but I thought I need to test the limit of the cassette. I went for an hour ride (an ideal lunch ride) in a place where I know there is a VERY steep climb. Steeper then you would expect even in a 1st category or Hors category climb. But a lot shorter :) I managed to go through on the 34/28. There was another climb, similar gradient as a difficult climb (but only about 2 km long), that I cleared with about 3 sprocket left.
Then, on the way back home, there is a long (not too steep) descent. I have MAXed at 64 km/h, pedaling (strange that after exporting the MapMyRide log to Strava it says 67km/h). So, 48 chainring is big enough, I don't need to go faster then that!
All this tells me that my gear range selection looks good.
Today, over lunch, I'll test the brakes. I'll go up Chamrousse (previous stage of Tour de France, regular stage of Criterium du Dauphiné), not to the top but I'll go down then on tight hairpins turns where you gain speed and have to slow down at every turn. This will tell me if the brake are good enough!
As I was walking in the forest with the kids last evening I captured a view of the mountains that I cycled that day. I did a loop around that hill you see in the middle, the closer one. It was nice :)
(https://s16.postimg.org/5i342gw6t/IMG_2703.jpg)
(https://s18.postimg.org/4dc80r7op/IMG_2705.jpg)
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This is probably my last ride report before I build my tubular wheels (in quite some time as I'll build my MTB first). So... BRAKE REPORT !
I'd say it's 100% good. Nothing I'd want to change.
- Levers: Ultegra levers have adjustable reach. I like a short reach, probably from my MTB preference. I can get it the way I want. Also, the touch of the carbon is very smooth, specifically with short gloves.
- Calipers adjust: there is no contact point adjustment on the Ultegra lever, so it's great that the calipers get it. Actually there is 2 knobs on each caliper. I like that you can easily match the feeling of both brakes.
- Caliper power and modulation: one word to describe it: Impressive. And my MTB brakes are SRAM Guide RSC, so I know what power and modulation is. I felt very comfortable in the hairpins turn, very safe. I'd even consider this for XC MTB.
Then, one thing I had not expected. Dropbar makes hairpins turns a lot faster then with my flatbar :o. Surprising. I could lean a lot better, carry more speed through the turn thanks to a good position. Also the levers make it easy to control brake and shifting simultaneously. This bike is made to descend!
Hopefully I'll be able to add that it's made to climb when I'll get my tubular wheels and drop 700g in the wheels+tires. Still, I have been 5'30" faster on this route then last April, so it's already not bad at all.
EDIT: I've uploaded the trace to Strava (forgot again to turn it on with Mapmyride) and it's very interesting. I'm in the 500-1000 on each segment (and honestly the KOM must be pro-riders or use e-bikes!!!!), except on the DH section, where I'm... 59th 8). This really tells a lot, I'm a lot better DH then going up, and the brakes and bike fitting have a lot to do with it. I would stand on the pedals and reach behind the seat, hold it with my knees ; just like I would on my MTB! It seems to be pretty efficient on road bike too ;D
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Thank you for the brake report, I'll definitely look about them for my coming build.
Can you share some more details of the type of wheels you will build. 700g will make a huge difference.
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The difference between these JuinTech (what a funny name! "Juin" is June in French) and the Hayes I had in the past is night and day. It's hard to tell these are not full hydro.
And to answer your question about the wheels:
Gravel wheels (those were my 29" MTB wheels): ZTR Crest on XT hubs
Front: 759g
Rear: 919g
Total: 1678g
Tires: 278+293=571g
Inner Tubes: 2x110g=220g
Grand Total: 2469g
Road wheels: 30mm deep carbon tubular on Novatec hubs (from my MTB carbon wheels)
Front: 303 (rim)+140 (hub)+140 (light spokes)=583g
Rear: 303 (rim)+271 (hub)+140 (light spokes)=714g
Total: 1297g
Tubulars: 2x260=520g
Grand total: 1817g
Difference=652g. And some more in favor of the carbon wheels due to disc that will be lighter.
It should really be great climbing wheels!
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One more brake update. Yesterday, I was coming from a short ride back home. There is a very narrow road right before I arrive at home and a big truck in front of me :o
I was going fast, over 40km/h, on that flat narrow section. Not the smartest thing of the day ::)
So, I've hit the brakes and I've locked the rear wheel. Just a split second, I could then modulate to slow down. All that to say that there is plenty of power in the JuinTech brakes! More then I thought. I'm still not 100% comfortable with those road levers, that wheel lock was really my fault. But now I'm even more confident in my brakes, they are really strong.
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another quick update on my road bike. I've just converted my winter wheels (the ZTR Crest) to Tubeless. I had tubeless compatible rims (already equipped with tape), valves and sealant. It was a shame to not convert!
In a nutshell: I highly recommend tubeless to anyone who has compatible components.Yesterday I've beat more then 10 Strava PR in one single ride
There are not many official Tubeless tires, I've picked the Schwalbe Pro One, 28 mm. My previous tires were Schwalbe Durano, 28 mm, mounted with tubes. Here is my review:
- MOUNTING: difficult. I'm experienced with tire mounting and tubeless setup but those were difficult. I had to fight to mount the tire on the rims, but that's probably because my rims are MTB, not road rims. The profile is probably higher on my rims. Tubeless setup was easy then.
- BENEFITS:
* The first benefit is comfort. There is a huge improvement, even though I start from 28 mm tires. Same pressure but the tires are a lot more supple. I used to feel a hit when rolling over road cracks, bumps. It's all gone now. Everything is absorbed by the tire. I even rode on cobblestone, crossed railway. Smooth.
* The next benefit is grip. I went down hairpin turns, long descent and felt more secure then ever. I have beat my PR on a descent yesterday.
* Then, amazingly, there is a rolling resistance benefit, very noticeable. This is odd as it does not fit with added comfort and grip, but hell it does! Schwalbe claims that Durano with tubes suck 29 Watts when Pro One suck only 17 Watts. My ride yesterday tell me this is real. And what a sound, as Simon and Garfunkel sang, the sound of silence.
*Weight. There is a benefit here. 80 g / wheel, with 30 ml of sealant (half of what I use in my 27.5x2.8 MTB tires). Does it make a difference? It should. Did I feel it? No! But it's there and it's better this way then an added weight!
I don't mention the obvious benefits of tubeless but they apply here as well as in MTB: no more tube pinching, ability to reduce the pressure to what you need (rather then what will prevent punctures), auto-repair of punctures.
So, I'm sold to tubeless for road bikes now. I will keep these wheels all winter and will mount my mountain wheels (carbon tubular) next Spring.
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It's been a long time since I have posted here. The bike has over 1200 km now and is just great. I really love it.
The reason I post now is because I've been brave yesterday and ordered some "exotic" stuff for the bike (you can call that "stupid" as well, the limit is very narrow ;D). So, as I'm getting closer to building my carbon tubular wheels I considered a post on weightweenies forum about Ceramic/Carbon disc. I thought it would look incredibly cool on my already-all-Carbon bike. It would also save 160 g total. Then I looked at the price and... it was not that bad. So I ordered those discs (absolutely untested by anyone reliable and from a Spanish company that I never heard of and that I could barely read, because I don't speak Spanish - now you get the "stupid" part of it ::)).
Then, I thought that carbon wheel with carbon disc would look stupid with steel bolts. So I did a 2 minutes search on Aliexpress and found a lot of 12 Ti disc bolts for 13 bucks. 2 seconds later I had pressed on "order". Now you really understand what I mean with... brave ;D
I would never take such a chance on my MTB, but hell this is a road bike with 160 mm disc brake, it will do it (and look so cool!!)
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In your area, the descents are so flat and soft, you do not take any risk with relatively unknown discs( in cycling ) and unknown Ti bolts :)
Do you have a link for the discs? I speak Spanish, so I can have a look.
At Aliexpress tarif, I was wondering if I wouldn't convert all my screws to Ti, just for the weight weenies sake of it ::) ::)
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Absolutely! Here is all the references:
Ti bolts from Aliexpress (note that you always get a slightly better price when ordering from the phone app):
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/12pcs-Titanium-screws-disc-brake-bicycle-parts-t25-m5-10mm-Ti-Rotor-Bolts-Screws-For-Mtb/32734581115.html
And the Carbon ceramic rotors
https://www.alphamotocicletas.com/en/tienda/
Here is what they claim, the only section in English:
The lightest ceramic rotor brake for bikes in the world.
Enjoy the latest technology for manufacturing ceramic discs created by Alpha for superior performance and long life.
Alpha carbon brakes are available for any type of bike, Trial, Cyclocross, Road, Enduro, Downhill…
-More powerful and progressive braking.
-No vibrations.
-Ultra lightweight.
-Better resistance to high temperatures and exhaustion compared to conventional discs.
-Superior performance.
-Efficiency dry and wet.
-1.9mm thickness.
Manufactured in Spain.
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I might try it on the rear brake first :)
Thanks for sharing all the pics and reports on your conversion!
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Hold on any purchase till I confirm it is OK! I have just received the rotors. I plan to test it tomorrow, but it's so cold and the road are so frozen that I don't plan on hard braking :o
So far so good, rotors came very quickly from Spain (1 week), they are perfectly flat, nicely cut and they weight 41 g (160 mm) as announced. The big question now, do they actually brake!!
Nice box
(https://s27.postimg.org/98tus114z/IMG_3046.jpg)
Interesting marketing claims on the back of the box (I hope it is 100% true!)
(https://s23.postimg.org/4liyx9bob/IMG_3047.jpg)
The rotors!
(https://s27.postimg.org/rr3zq0403/IMG_3048.jpg)
Close-up
(https://s29.postimg.org/utkor6ppj/IMG_3049.jpg)
As flat and true as can be
(https://s29.postimg.org/g6c57n5hj/IMG_3052.jpg)
1.9 mm thick, as announced
(https://s27.postimg.org/50i931fbn/IMG_3053.jpg)
82g the pair
(https://s28.postimg.org/qzngvtuel/IMG_3054.jpg)
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Neat design. I look forward to see a picture when mounted.
Take care to not over-torque them :)
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So... last night I got started to prep everything for a quick test today. I pull out the rotors, torque wrench, T25 fitting. I take the front wheel off the road bike and... Oops, those are Centerlock :-[
I get 5 pair of wheels at home. 3 are centerlock hubs (I prefer this design, but moved away because the offer is not as large as 6-bolts). 2 are 6-bolts: the hubs to build my carbon tubular (un-built) and my MTB wheels. One more with my son's bike (24" MTB).
So, I get 2 options to test. The rear wheel on my MTB (front is 180 mm), or my son's bike :o
You already know that this test will be poor, at best. I'll try anyway, not sure yet which test will tell me more about the quality of the rotors. Or... I mount my son's wheel on my road bike. It would fit (remember it's a 29" MTB frame :) ).
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Test completed. I don't recommend Carbon rotors.
Not a catastrophic failure but I understand now why rotors are made of metal. That's because metal can be bent. As I mentioned and showed in my pictures, the rotors are perfectly flat, on the table. But once mounted on the hub they are out of true. I used my torque wrench to tighten the bolts evenly at 6 Nm (recommendation from Alpha). Could be that my hub is not perfectly true or that when you compress the rotor the constraint causes warp. Don't know. The only thing I know is that because it is made of Carbon you can bend it. You just can't fix it. Period.
They don't rub badly, but they do. I could certainly massage them to stop rubbing (by a perfect alignment of the caliper and some magic spells) but this is not a robust solution.
Then, they seem to stop me (tried the front brake of my son's bike). I guess there is some breaking in that needs to happen, but they are a bit noisy (dry) and vibrate. Hopefully this is just because they are new.
So, again, I don't recommend Carbon rotors. Never, ever would I use these on a MTB. You hit a rock and they most likely break, leaving you w/o brake. I'll try to fit them on my road bike once I have my carbon wheels built, but if I had the option to send them back I would.
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So, again, I don't recommend Carbon rotors. Never, ever would I use these on a MTB. You hit a rock and they most likely break, leaving you w/o brake. I'll try to fit them on my road bike once I have my carbon wheels built, but if I had the option to send them back I would.
Wow... that didn't pan out as planned :(
Did you contact the builder about these issues?
For breaking the disc, I would have been more optimistic.
If you hit a metal disc it would probably bend enough to not be rideable nor fixable.
So not a big difference in the end.
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Test is over, and I've already requested my money back :-[
For those who don't speak Spanish they can use Google translate.
http://www.foromtb.com/threads/discos-de-freno-de-carbono-alpha-rs-cuidado-con-ellos.1366597/
Not taking any risk. Lucky I paid with my American Express card, if they don't send the money on their own I'm protected 90 days past the purchasing day.
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The pictures speak for themselves. The disc explosion is scary.
I understand why you don't want to test them any further.
I didn't read the whole 22p thread.
But at the end a guy talks about some other brands that can be trusted more:
WREN:
https://www.bikerumor.com/2015/09/16/ib15-wrens-ultralight-ceramic-alloy-disc-brake-rotors-pass-testing-head-to-market/
SICCC:
https://www.bikerumor.com/2014/07/09/kettle-cycles-redesigns-siccc-carbon-fiber-brake-rotors-adds-colors-new-metallic-pads/
http://www.cxmagazine.com/cyclocross-kettle-cycles-sfl-siccc-ceramic-carbon-disc-brake-rotors
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Thanks for the link to potentially working Carbon discs but... I'll look into metal disc for now :)
I just want to mention that I recommend American Express credit card. Just got them on the phone and they have already locked the paiment. I just need to email them proof of communication with vendor and proof that the product is dangerous and they are going to contact the vendor on their own. Anyway, I keep my money!
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was the right kind of brake pads being used? those rotor were completely destroyed ...
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Alpha was never clear about pads in their communication. Before purchase I could only read they recommend "ceramic", "ceramic-organic" and "no metal". The problem is that "ceramic-organic" does not exist (at least I've never seen such thing), "ceramic" contain metal most of the time (so it is no good).
After purchase they finally replied to me, ignored my questions and just sent me that:
1-The Alpha RS disks are compatible with ceramic or organic ceramic pads; they should never be used with neither a metallic or synthetic compound nor Kevlar.
2- The disk was created to be used exclusively in six lock systems.
3- The disk can be mounted in any direction, although it is advisable to follow the instructions on our "use and rotor rotation" video.
4- The 6 screws applied on the disk must be of a tightening torque of up to 6 Nm.
5-When installing the brake pads, make sure the brake pad covers the entire ceramic track length.
6-For a safe installation and maintenance, make sure you keep your fingers away when the disc is operating.
7-Like any brake disk, it may reach high temperatures, be sure not to touch the disk when you get off after driving, note the disk can burn. To handle the brakes, make sure the disks are cold.
8- Before driving, check the disk and the braking system to assure all breaking operations are working properly.
9- When the disk is worn and it is 1.6 mm thick or less or when it is damaged or broken, the disk must be replaced.
10-Before driving, make sure that your brake pads are 0.5 mm thick or more
11- We suggest replacing the disk after 3 years of use or when observing a wear like the mentioned in the point 8.
12- Keep the disk away from grease and dirt, since these can cause the brakes fail.
13- It is advisable to use the brakes simultaneously and only when it is necessary, never
overheat the brake pad.
14-it is mandatory to use ventilated pads to ensure the proper operation of the disk.
15-Always perform a test drive when the pads are recently installed, we recommend to drive at least 40 km.
16- It is dangerous to jump with the brakes applied before reaching the ground, it can cause some damage.
So, now you see #14: ventilated brake pads are mandatory! Even more difficult to find. Impossible. So I emailed back, sending a link to 2 pads (on a Spanish website to make sure they understand). The first one (ceramic, not ventilated), the second organic and ventilated. They dropped one line to say I need to use the second one. Oh... so now, organic is recommended ?!?
I also ask a link to the video mentioned on #3. They never replied to me.
Also, they never got back to me since I asked for my money back. I had to ask AE to block the payment.
Honestly, whatever the pad you use these rotors will fail. Looking into these in more detail, they are not ceramic discs. Ceramic brakes, it does not delaminate.
A Spanish MTB website has also tested the rotors, same results after 2 rides!
http://esmtb.com/2016/12/16/discos-espanoles-ultralight-carbono-demasiado-bonito-para-ser-cierto/
These are just good for the trash. I believe it is made of carbon sheet and resin (maybe simply epoxy!).
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And the bike is as finalized as can be :-X
I've build my carbon wheels. Not even tested yet but you can already enjoy some pictures! You can also see the new bottle cage (carbon with a painting that fits my bike - not custom painted though) from Aliexpress. I finally find that the red line on the tires is too much. I'll probably won't repeat when they are worn out. They won't last till next year anyway (the bike already has 3000+ km, mileage goes fast on road bikes!).
And the bike as pictured is 7.5 kg. This includes pedals, bottle cage, latex in the tires and... a pump (hidden in the seatpost). My spreadsheet tells me 7235g w/o pedals, bottle cage and pump. That's most likely light enough for what I will do. And it's a disc brake bike, which is always a bit heavier, and don't forget it's a MTB ;D
Pictures now!
(https://s22.postimg.org/mdeo76be9/IMG_3354.jpg)
(https://s27.postimg.org/e1484hvyr/IMG_3356.jpg)
(https://s8.postimg.org/8tgbrm7xh/IMG_3358.jpg)
(https://s12.postimg.org/9lnom45b1/IMG_3353.jpg)
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That's not heavy.
I've seen loads of top disc bikes with this weight.
Still waiting for the latest tech to build mine( either Shimano 9107 or SRAM HRD ).
I'm afraid their general availability will come like the Eagle last year, at the end of the season.
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I did a carbon wheel test ride today. Amazing, really :o
- Good grip: weather was bad, pouring rain, but the narrow 23 mm tubular demonstrated a good grip. No hairpin turn today, but I never felt unsecured when crossing "swimming-pools".
- Supreme comfort: comfort was very similar to my 28 mm tubeless tires, which is a real reference in term of comfort. I still might give a try to 25 mm tubulars when I need to change but there is nothing more I really need. You really need poor roads to feel a need for better then that.
- Weight: I was not ready to feel such a difference, I haven't tackled a large climb today but the small climb I took felt surprisingly easy. And acceleration was a pure pleasure. I also found that it makes easier to maintain a sustained effort too (probably because you don't waste energy in the acceleration phase - you don't have that energy drain before the sustained effort). And note that my reference is not too bad, winter wheelset is 1.68kg with the best tubeless tires.
So, it's a big success. Next is longer, steeper climbs and it's associated descent (fast, hairpin turns) but I need to build confidence in the wheels first, I mean for the descent.
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I did a carbon wheel test ride today. Amazing, really :o
I though you had already carbon wheels on it. I guess you built them yourself :)
Do you mind to give some details: which spokes, hubs, rim size and final weight?
Something special for tubulars, and impressions vs. tubeless?
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Well, I had most of the components for a long time (except the spokes) but I had to wait for my MTB wheels to be build to free the hub! Till then I was using ZTR Crest rims on XT hubs (my former 29" wheels). Those are good wheels, below 1.7 kg. I've been using those all through the winter with Schwalbe Pro One tubeless tires, 28 mm. It makes a really good set of wheels. On winter dirty, slippy roads, they've been fantastic.
Now the Carbon wheels :)
- Rims: carbon, 30 mm deep, 23 mm wide, specific for tubular (a lot lighter then for tires). 300g each. From Peter who made them special for me w/o brake surface, all shiny, so beautiful! Very affordable product!
http://www.xmcarbonspeed.com/Productinfo.asp?f=1470
- Hubs: Novatec D711/712SB. Those are the hubs that were mounted on the 27.5+ wheels I bought from Peter. Cost is zero!
- Spokes: I gave a try to flat spokes, CX-Ray. They are expensive, even though Peter got a good price for me (more expensive then the rims...). I don't regret it, they are very light and look nice.
Overall, 604g front, 737g rear. It could be lighter with fewer spokes but my hubs were 32 holes, I thought it would be stupid to buy new hubs just to reduce spoke counts. But if you pick 28/24 combo you can save another 40-50g.
Tubulars are Vittoria Corsa CX III, 23 mm. I was a bit worried to get down from 28 mm to 23, but I have no regret so far. I wanted these wheels to be as light as reasonably possible but they also prove to be of very similar comfort to tubeless 28 mm (a lot better then regular tire/tube). Gluing process is scary at first, but honestly there is nothing difficult. I carry a light and compact tubular in my saddle bag, in case the latex doesn't work. Changing the tubular is actually faster then putting a tube in my tubeless wheel.
As you might have seen on Strava, I got more confidence today and topped 71 km/h in a descent, but I was very careful, light on the brakes, paying attention to any suspect noise. And I trust that these nice wheels made my climb a bit less painful. 10%, 10 km climb :'(
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Thank you for sharing the details.
It intrigues me now, I could go too for tubulars instead of tubeless too.
You are putting sealant in them right?
Do you see already the fat/wet spots(plugged holes) we see on our MTB tires when they dry?
Since there are many roads with cobbles here, that hurt hard, I would have liked a 25 or 28mm instead.
Was it for the weight you took 23mm?
I reached my record too this weekend at 70Km/h, but the bar started all of a sudden to shake strangely, and I thought I was going crash hard.
The same evening I was still feeling that bad impression :o
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It's a tough call for you... I would pick 28 mm for Northern France/Belgium. Not sure tubeless or tubular (both are good options). The reason I selected tubular for my carbon wheels is really because I wanted a very light set of wheels, for the nice season, for the mountain (with 60 minutes climbs). Tubular themselves are not lighter then tubeless tires but the rims are. My rims are 300g, tubeless/clincher rims are closer to 400-420g.
I selected 23 mm tubular because they provide good comfort and light weight, but I'll try 25 mm tubular next (with a 20-30g/tubular weight penalty) for even greater comfort.
If you think about repair/setup pain, I think tubular is better. I have some latex in my tubular so I should be good for small punctures. Replacing a tubular on the road is fairly easy. The only pain is that it takes several days to put a tubular on when the rims are new (then just 24 hours of drying time when you replace a new tubular). Tubeless are as easy for small punctures, but they are a big pain when sealant doesn't work. Tubeless tires are difficult to mount, potentially impossible when stressed, under the rain, frozen, on the side of a dirty road. I don't want to face the day when sealant doesn't work on my road bike or MTB (I have used "mèches" once successfully though, no need to demount the tire). Removing and replacing a tubeless tire is one big pain.
PS: I agree that past 70 km/h is scary. It requires full focus on what's going on. My bike was still very stable at that speed and that's because it's a MTB frame, with a longer wheel base. The phenomenon you mention is called "guidonnage" in French. You can Google this key word for advices to fix the problem.
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About 16 or 17 years ago when I got my first trail worthy HT XC for only a couple of months, I hit 70kph going downhill (road). It was such a rush and exciting I might add. It didn't scared me. I actually loved it. Even talked about it for a few days. But it got me thinking hard and eventually got myself on a self-imposed speed limit. No over 40kph downhill and no over 55kph on flat. I still abide by this rule to this day although I do get tempted to break the downhill limit once in a while. Reason for this speed limit... I always knew my strenght was endurance riding not speed, not agility and not concentration, my simple goal was to be able to keep on enjoying cycling way past retirement age. Be safe.
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OK, I found the limit of 23 mm tires: cobblestone. I had crossed railways, it was fine (modern ones, as flat as can be). But I've tried a short section on cobblestone this week, at a descent speed. No good. I couldn't do that for extended time. 28 mm tires was way better on the same section.
It interesting that I can only tell a real difference on such a difficult road. All the railways, potholes, speed bumps felt about the same with 23 and 28 mm tires.
So, Carbonazza, it suggests that 23 mm is a no-go for you. You want either a very comfortable 25 mm tire or 27/28 mm.
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So, Carbonazza, it suggests that 23 mm is a no-go for you.
I should expect some pain at the tour of Flanders tomorrow then :o
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Check this bike out. I'm thinking about building one up like this one.
http://www.gravelcyclist.com/bicycle-tech/featured-bike-sette-eldorado-monster-cross-bike/
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Hi Everyone, it's been a LOOOONG time since I posted on this forum. I've been pretty busy and tried to make the most out of my free time. Anyway, now is a good time to share the sad news that the bike described in this post is now DEAD, completely. A car crashed into me as I was descending a mountain road last month at 56km/h (according to my GPS, at the moment of the crash). Good news is that I'm alive ;D, still in a bad shape after a month but I'm recovering (broken hand, nose, teeth...). No bike for me before at least 2-3 month and I'll start on home trainer.
Anyway, this was a fantastic bike, which took me a lot of work but after checking it in details with the insurance expert it can't be repaired. Multiple cracks in the frame, front rim cracked (I had laced these carbon rims myself :'( ), saddle destroyed (a 70g full carbon saddle from Smud Carbon :'( :'( :'( ), huge shock on the handlebar and fork (no crack but I'm not taking any chance with such vital parts), scratched seat post. There is not much left, and standards have changed (my brakes were standard, not flat mount).
Insurance didn't want to deal with the 30+ invoices that made this bike, so they asked me to produce a single invoice, from the person who put the bike together. So, "I" put an invoice together for... 5000€. That's the bare minimum value of a 7.1kg, full carbon, disk road bike with carbon wheels.
Now, let's see what the insurance say. If they give me enough money I'll probably just buy a bike on the shelf (not top range, something like Ultegra group set range, 8kg, disk brake - probably 2500€) and use the rest of the money to build a nice pair of carbon wheels, and buy another Smud Carbon saddle (expensive, 149€, but so much worth it ::) ). If there is money left I'll upgrade my home trainer to a Smart Trainer.
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...broken hand, nose, teeth...
Didn't know it was that bad, I'm sorry to read this :-\
I hope you recover well.
So, "I" put an invoice together for... 5000€
Do you think it will work ? That is interesting for us to know in case our beloved chiner is broken.
I thought it would be very hard to get something out of it.
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I'm just glad that you're okay but ecstatic that you're still thinking about cycling!!! ;D ;D ;D
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My wife is pretty scared about me going back on a bike but I never ever considered that I could quit. Even as I was at the hospital, in E.R., I was already thinking about my next session.
The same week I bought a new helmet, gloves and bike glasses (there was a 50% discount :) ). I'm still waiting on the insurance to tell me how much they give me but I already bought a (very) nice home trainer. I had an offer on Wahoo equipment, so I bought a Kickr Core and a Kicr Climb (for a total of just €1150.00 8)). I can't wait to use it on Zwift (which will be my main workout till Spring). I still expect that the insurance will give me enough money to buy a decent bike. Worse case I'll buy a frame/Fork/seatpost kit and equip it with the groupset from my destroyed bike (I've seen postmount to flatmount calipers adapters). I probably can rebuild a bike with €1200 (frame kit + wheels + bars)
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Good news! Insurance just offered €3000 for the bike (and some €500 more for the rest of my equipment). They indeed considered a €5000 value bike (the invoice I made), even though I had only injected about €2500 of parts in this bike. The bike was already over 3 years old so that's an acceptable value drop.
Bonus is that I keep the damaged bike. I would never ride it again on the road but I will repair and refurbish it as a Home Trainer bike, so that it remains permanently on the trainer while my new bike will only be used on the road. With the KICKR Core and Climb I don't even need any wheels.
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Good news! Insurance just offered €3000 for the bike
Congrats! So finally some luck in the end, no permanent injury and you get some decent money out of it.
...I will repair and refurbish it as a Home Trainer bike, so that it remains permanently on the trainer...
I did that few years ago, with the first 256 frame I did break a seatstay.
Hopefully we'll ride one day together in the Alps or near Leuven ;)
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And here is the 3rd life of this FlyXii frame! First it was a hardtail MTB (that I raced), then a Road/Gravel (raced as a Gravel) and now a bike trainer. The frame repair is raw from epoxy/carbon wrapping (no sanding and polishing yet) but it looks good and solid. Note that I would still NEVER put this bike again on the road as there is probably some hidden damages in the handlebars, fork and frame. Very happy to get this frame dedicated now to home trainer. I plan on fixing some bars on the wall to hang it here, in my office.
(https://i.ibb.co/rfbKZnN/IMG-1006-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rfbKZnN) (https://i.ibb.co/4sv09JG/IMG-8386-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4sv09JG)
First test ride today! I haven't been on a bike in about 80 days now :-[
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Nice repair, it looks great in picture !
I did the same kind of repair at the exact same place, and did ride the bike after that.
So for a home trainer, it is probably good enough.
Are you happy with the Kickr Climb?
Is it worth the climbing experience it provide ?
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Well, I have used it only once so far! I switch from a non-Smart trainer to a Kicr Core+Climb, so it's a big upgrade. Climb is definitely nice, but the reason I bought it is because I used money from the insurance and got a 15% discount (it clearly offsets the high price). Also it is a nice setup for me as the bike is more compact this way (no wheel on at all), so takes less space when not installed. If I was using my outdoor road bike for that it would be different (I'd have to take both wheels off and then on every time, which can be a pain).
So, it is the right product for me now, but maybe not for everyone.
And yes, I still believe we'll ride the Alpes or Leuven together! Just give me time to recover a bit more :)