Chinertown
Chinese Carbon MTB => Fat Bikes => Topic started by: element on August 01, 2016, 11:15:54 AM
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I am looking to upgrade my Aluminum full suspension eFat Bike to a carbon Full Suspension using the CS-001 newest full suspension fat bike frame 26er for 177*12mm axle.
My current E-ride is the 19" BikesDirect Sniper with a Bafang BBS-HD pulling 52v from HobbyKing LiPo's... SEE ATTACHED
The plan is to build a 21" Xiamen CS-001 full suspension fat bike frame 26er for 177*12mm axle using a 3000 watt electric motor
http://xmcarbonspeed.com/Productinfo.asp?f=1402
If someone has experience with this new frame, it would be nice to hear comments
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No experience with the frame, but out of curiosity why would you want to upgrade to a carbon frame? What is this bike used for primarily?
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I am looking at carbon because I can't find another full suspension Fattie that meets my motor mounting configuration. I like the sniper and after riding it, my hard tail Fatties feel like log trucks.
I only trail ride and having a second full suspension Fattie is my only excuse... and I never owned a carbon bike before.
Logic has not been part of the thought process
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I only trail ride and having a second full suspension Fattie is my only excuse... and I never owned a carbon bike before.
Logic has not been part of the thought process
Sounds valid enough to me! Honestly if the frame fits your specifications I wouldn't be hesitant to order from Peter. I'm pretty sure most people on here would agree that he stands by his products. If you're more worried about components fitting I would just see if there are any other threads on other sites like pinkbike, mtbr.. etc, where someone has built one. I've never seen an E-Mountain bike before. I did a little reading and it sounds like if you don't mind a little extra weight they can be a blast. I hope you build one up and share with us what it's like. I haven't been through all the threads on here, but as far as I know you're the only one to have mentioned building one on a chiner frame!
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I have had the pleasure of building this bike up with two different builds.... one with a Bluto Fork and then with the Lefty. It is by far the best bike I have ever owned and I have owned some pretty nice bikes... I had a Santa Cruz Tall Boy LTc Enve Package and then also a Bronson (same build).... this bike is more stable descending and it climbs like a beast. If I had it all to do over again, I would order this bike again without question... Peter has been very professional and always got back to me very quickly with all of my questions. There is not another bike on the market currently that I know of that is built this good and for the price there is absolutely nothing that compares. I am recommending this bike to all of my friends... currently my bike is taken apart because I just added a Carbon Supermax Lefty Fork for it and I am installing the new Eagle XX1 next week on it... I can't wait to get out on this thing again and ride... it really is a true work of art.
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Thanks, and now I am excited about building my eCarbon....I sent an email to Bella ask for a quote.
Another question.... should I consider xm carbon wheels for my Pennsylvania woods and trails or will aluminum be more durable?
Either way I will need a rear wheel because I don't have any 177x12 stuff
FYI, I will be using 120mm Bluto...
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Awesome choice with the Bluto. I haven't heard anything bad yet. You might want to check out this thread http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,756.30.html. The frame didn't have enough clearance for the fork, so he had to get this crown race / spacer combo machined. It sounds like it was affordable and works well! Honestly, reading through all these forums and talking with people around the trails I'd say go carbon on the wheel set if your budget permits. A lot of people make good claims that carbon is actually stronger and better. I'm waiting on my set to arrive from Peter this week, but I've heard nothing but good things.
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Why carbon, attached are better pictures of an Aluminum Full Suspension Fattie.
Consider those the BEFORE pictures
The Purple Mountain Majesty (BikeDirect Sniper) is an awesome bike and the attached pictures show the small LiPo batteries next to a dollar bill... carried in a hydration backpack.
These batteries when connected to the Bafang HD gives a 10 to 20 mile woods ride that is best described as silent Motor Cross or a very exciting mountain bike ride!
Ok, so where the the XM carbon come in?...
1. I liked riding the eSniper but they are no longer available and it's a fairly heavy bike
2. Because I carry the LiPo batteries in a backpack, means any real weight reduction of the fat bike improves it handling dynamics
Bottom Line, going from an alloy bike to a carbon bike that weighs nothing when compared to the Sniper
eCarbon... ;D It is going to be hard to take the smile off my face
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Wow... that looks like a post oil era motocross bike :)
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You are correct, XM has good service.
They shipped the frame and gave a tracking number the same day as receiving payment. :)
I also ordered seat tube, headset and a spare derailleur hanger, to avoid fitment problems
I did not order XM wheels because of their long lead times, but little did I know wheels would not be the problem... see below
Now the bad news...
I cannot find any bike local shops that stocks a 37mm seat tube clamp so I needed to order from Ebay
Unfortunately that means the eCarbon project stops until late August when the clamp is scheduled to arrive from China
This is the same lesson as posted before on this forum. It is the little stuff that can makes building a Carbon bike more difficult.
I never guessed a $12.00 part would halt this expensive $$$ project. I assume that is why some carbon frame builders include the seat tube clamp :-\
Found a cool Stainless Steel clamp
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Wow, really fast shipping from Bella and Peter
Frame was packed very well and what you see in the picture only took one hour to assemble
:D very-very please with the frame, I can recommend it 100%
Using Aluminum Rims until the Carbon wheels ship, the Aluminium wheels will be used for muddy trails
The Carbon wheels will have a less knobby tires for summer dry tail riding, the carbon wheels are being built by team Peter
The knobby mud tires are not mounted on the aluminum wheels because the Orange 75mm Tubeless rim tape has not arrived
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Very impressed with XM, Peter and Bells
As noted in previous replies the frame is amazing, but the 80mm x 35mm Club Carbon 80 wheels are the best
Yes they are light and the excellent tolerance relating to rim dimensions made tubeless setup a breeze.
One layer of 75mm Orange Seal Fat Bike Tubeless Tape, 46mm American Classic Bicycle Tubeless Wheels Valve Stems and and 4 oz of sealant... done
NOTE: Only use one layer of thin Orange Seal Tape, Gorilla Tape would be too thick and the valve stems must be 46mm or longer
Bottomline,
For a large size frame FULL SUSPENSION FAT BIKE... this is a light fattie thanks to Peter and Bella
21" frame
4.7" Sno Tires
120mm Bluto forks
200mm Rear Shock (120mm RW travel)
SUSPENSION SEAT
Front and rear fenders
heavy duty aluminum handle bars
120mm high-rise stem
many headset spacers
only weighs 32#
... change the seat and bars it would be around 30#... But with rider weight of 255# light handle bars are risky
Motor in transit, stay tuned
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Looks really good so far. I'm glad you decided to go with the carbon wheels. Yesterday my dad and I were loading bikes into the car and he picked up one of my wheels and it blew his mind. I'm convinced and very happy with mine. Your build looks really slick. Do you have your cranks yet? Will it be a 1x11? Where will you mount batteries for this build?
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See attached picture of the 48# wheelie monster.
Just finished making the custom brackets and installing a Cyclone 3000 inside the frame
The only testing was in the shop using 34t to 11/36 cassette and a backpack battery holding Hobbyking 1600M ampHr lipo's
eCarbon wheelies very easily at 48v and gets wild with 52v... feels like it could climb a tree
Can't imagine 72v... concerned the huge torque could break something :-\
Bike is surprisingly light at 48# ... when compared to my other ebikes,..
IMHO, This Full Suspension eCarbon fattie with carbon wheels, 4.7' tubeless tires, 3000 watt cyclone motor and a high amperage Lipo backpack has all the right elements to be the ultimate woods bike...
As it now stands, nobody can keep up with the now "old and obsolete" PMM (Purple Mountain Majesty) so the eCarbon will be like a Star Wars in the woods... but it needs a name ...
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I'm afraid you crossed the motorbike border with this monster :)
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I now have questions ;)
My girlfriend wants an e-bike, and I remembered your post.
I won't go with the Cyclone, but probably with the BBSHD at 1000w.
How does it ride after a few months?
The only testing was in the shop using 34t to 11/36 cassette
What cassette/chain/number of speeds did you put in the end?
a backpack battery holding Hobbyking 1600M ampHr lipo's
eCarbon wheelies very easily at 48v and gets wild with 52v... feels like it could climb a tree
Can't imagine 72v... concerned the huge torque could break something :-\
How do you connect the 1600Ah lipo's together, and what voltage do you use in the end?
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It is a good idea to safety wire the rear axle nut on the rear 12mm axle... if it get loose it could destroy the cassette freehub
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58.8v/52v Hobbyking Lipo picture
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Thanks !
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My girlfriend wants an e-bike
Hi carbonazza, don't invest into LiPo technology and definitely not into Hobbykings own brand batteries. They are cheap with good stats on paper, but that's about it.
Why not Lipo: they are not durable, have short life span (low amount of charging cycles - at best 500) and have to be charged very carefully not to over voltage them with very expensive charger - else their life span drops rapidly.
What to get as powersource - LiFePo: best power to weight ratio (but not as good capacity to weight ratio as LiPo), very good durability - can be overcharged, under depleted, 1000 charging cycles with almost no capacity loss during cell's life, can be charged with cheap chinese chargers so that makes up for their higher price compared to LiPo.
Why not no-brand batteries (Hobbyking, etc): Batteries are made with different grades and are sorted as they leave the factory. The grade is usually determined by the internal resistance of the cell. Low grade cells loose capacity faster, reach less charging cycles, can get puffy easier and they get hotter drawing current from them. These cells usually end up in cheap LiPo packs.
I have very good experience with A123 LiFePo cells. They have also multiple grades, get the A grade as directly from the factory as you can. The longer the battery sits in warehouse the worst it is (some batteries can be old as 2 years then sold cheaper). Make sure all cells in the battery pack are the same age (so the whole pack ages the same and all cells have same properties). Have the cells professionally be welded together (not soldered but welded - some HobbyKing packs are soldered). This way you can have a pack much cheaper than buying it already made.
Now about the voltages and power:
E-bikes are powered by brushless DC motors. The torque of the motor is determined by the current flowing through, the max rpm is kv * Volts. Kv is a constant specific to each motor. So voltage influences the max reachable speed.
If your pack is connected in series then raising the voltage will not raise the current the pack is able to give.
Each motor has a limit how much current it can handle - else it will get burned. Adding additional cooling to the motor does increase the maximum torque it is capable of (granted the batteries can supply the current needed).
Looks like the Cyclone 3000 uses this motor controller: http://www.ebikes.ca/c-phaserunner.html (http://www.ebikes.ca/c-phaserunner.html). It is able to handle 90V max and 40A max current with a 96A peak. These controllers have programmable limits and they have to be paired to the motor with PC (each motor requires different parameters to run smoothly). Maybe there are lower current limits programmed in not to overload the Cyclone 3000 motor.
It is also worth noting that supplying too much current for higher torque can damage the transmission even if the motor can handle it. The transmission has plastic wheels inside: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1054349#p1054349 (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1054349#p1054349).
Increasing the voltage will increase the max speed and the power, but not the torque. The max power happens at half the max rpm: http://motors.vex.com/introduction/ (http://motors.vex.com/introduction/).
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@Jerryno, it looks I opened a new Pandora Box :o
Thank you for the advices and providing all these resources to read.
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Hobbyking batteries are cheap, light, powerful and work good... been using them for many years....
I don't recommend them for the inexperienced novice because they have very high current that can be dangerous
Bottomline, this ain't rocket science but basic electrical and workshop skills are required
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Hobbyking batteries are cheap, light, powerful and work good... been using them for many years....
I don't recommend them for the inexperienced novice because they have very high current that can be dangerous
Bottomline, this ain't rocket science but basic electrical and workshop skills are required
I know from playing with quadcopters that Lipo batteries can be fragile to charge/discharge
You have a good charger or do not care that much?
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I bulk charge them, but watch for heat or swelling... individual cells are monitored periodically and bad ones are removed.
I have not notice that cell matching is critical as some profess and swelling or heat usually predicts that a cell internal resistance is too high
IMHO, not over discharging HobbyKing lipos is the key to safety. I found little benefit building packs with BMS units so I stopped using BMS.
Commercial packs have one BMS lead monitord 6 to 8 welded cells in series they call one cell. So the BMS can only tell when the larger group is failing, not each individual cell
With HobbyKing packs, generally 6 cells pack have 6 cells and each single cell can be monitor with a cell tester.
I have some commercial packs, but but for my high performer ebikes I use HobbyKing Lipo's. The cost to performance ration has been excellent
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The orginal XM Carbon Speed has matured and had a child.
There is a second XM Carbon Speed full suspension and it has gown up to be like its daddy with a Cyclone 3000w.
http://www.xmcarbonspeed.com/Productinfo.asp?f=1402 (FYI, Peter at XM Carbon Speed is a very good person do work with)
IMHO, a carbon full suspension bike with Cyclone 3000w very close to being the ultimate woods bike and here are some of the reasons.
1. Versatile mounting options: Relatively speaking it was easy to make longer/stronger brackets to facilitate inside the frame mounting for improved ground clearance
2. Good power to weight ratio: The BBS-HD feels like it is broken or has dead batteries when compared to the Cyclone 3000w
3. Reasonable noise levels: Few people have noticed or commented on the sound.... the mini cyclone was obnoxious and not useable on public areas
4. Low Cost: When compared to the cost of carbon components, Lipo batteries, BBS-HD the Cyclone 3000w is a bargain
5. Dependable: Maybe it because the mounts are well made, but nothing has broken during deliberate nasty thrashing rides in the woods... that not to say something won't break, but it was surprising that efforts to ride hard and break something... nothing broke
Bottomline, the Cyclone 3000 is awesome, but don't let anyone tell you that weight doesn't matter on ebikes... A full suspension carbon ebike in the woods using a battery backpack is another world when compared to the weight and mass of an aluminum BBS-HD ebike... Bafang is now boring...
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There's a lot of wiring going on an e-bike, but in your case they are very well hidden. Congrats!
And thanks for the additional details about the LiPo's.
One thing worries me with the Cyclone 3000w is the rider's leg is quite exposed to the chain/chainring/cog, although they could be hidden by some plastic cover.
And probably 3000w is quite oversized for my girlfriend needs :)
Just curious. How do you attach the engine to the carbon frame?
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custom made bracket, see picture