Cheaper doesnt always mean better value

Regarding Pat it's probably a little unfair. But carbonazza has a point: The more companies like winspace see how they are seen as reputable brands delivering higher quality, the higher their prices will rise. Even more so, if they pay something for the marketing and being named and shown by "influencers". And the whole point of buying those Chinese frames is to spare all the cost for marketing-bullshit. Not buying a name, but just the frame for just riding. I would prefer to keep it that way.

That's well within those brands' rights IMO. Similarly, as a consumer it's your/my right to not buy from brands that don't deliver what you deem to be good value.

But it's not an industry-wide thing. On one side you have Winspace hiking up prices (from high to insane IMO). On the other side you have brands like Velobuild who have barely increased prices for years, while still updating their lineups and providing decent service. And then you have the whole spectrum in between. So painting the whole industry as one extreme, and then blaming that perceived change on influencers just doesn't seem correct or fair to me.

Takiyaki I agree with you on those points. In particular the average cyclist hasn't a clue to look at these options.  95% of people who buy a bike are looking to the big brands for a variety of reasons the biggest of which they just don't know enough and want a carry away product.

Personally I appreciate people who are early adopters and willing to share their experiences on here or YT so I'm not sure why the knock.

Lightbicycle, nextie, etc kind of opened the doors to these less expensive direct options. They make great products, but if I'm being frank, their prices are slowly rivaling some of the more mainstream brands and the value isn't what it used to be.  That's not bad or wrong. It's just what it is and I think likely what their business goal was in the first place. Can't fault them for wanting to make an actual profit on what they're doing. I still consider them every time I'm looking, but end up just buying a similar product for less on Ali. 

To each their own I guess. I have no issues with either side as it's just opinion.   

I think there's still a value proposition for getting Light Bicycle wheels vs equivalent Bontrager/Zipp etc. Especially when you factor in customization.

Plus everything is just getting more expensive. A lot of the Chinese brands price increases have been way below inflation. I think I bought my Dengfu frame for $550 in 2018-2019. That's not far off for an equivalent frame today. Western brands haven't been anywhere near as conservative in their price hikes.

I work in data/engineering so I have a pet peeve for anchoring opinions to real information. We can perceive anything how we want but if someone wants to levy accusations or criticisms they have to be rooted in reality IMO.

I'm going to be brutally honest here as well.

I'm likely one of the "super experienced members" you mentioned.
For about a decade, I've been assembling frames and wheels directly from China.
My journey began with discovering groups like MTBR, iPlay, Pieter, etc., and eventually led me to chinertown.com
Infinite thanks and love to Sitar_Ned!!
I hope my contributions have helped build this fantastic forum and gave something back from what I learned here.

I'm fortunate to have a well-paying job that allows me to build bikes for friends and family as a hobby, at no cost to them.
My goal is to provide them with great bikes at fair prices and to make them happy.

I'm historically particularly biased towards Carbonda and Lightbicycle, brands that you amusingly never mention.
This isn't because they pay me (they don't). It's because, among all the providers I've tested, they have never let me down.
Their products are neither the cheapest nor overly expensive.
Moreover, if anything goes wrong, their customer support surpasses that of any Western brand I've dealt with.

I understand that some people, like Trace Velo, Joe, to some extent Hambini, many others, maybe you, chasing followers to carve out a living on YouTube and social media.

However, this has turned on the marketing machine around here.
No-name frames are suddenly sub par, while stickered frames selling at double the price, or even worse, branded frames are the real deal.
Persuading folks they need some stiffness and aero benefits only pros might need.
And it works! People are seeking broader validation and rely on branded visuals to reassure themselves they're not making a misguided decision.

It doesn’t bother me people trying do their thing on YouTube and elsewhere.
But your arrival here has sadly contributed unintentionally to the spoiling of the pristine wilderness that Chinertown once was 

This is unfair and kind of wrong IMO.

1, Pat does not make a living off of YT. I know first hand what YT pays creators. His channel is def a labor of love.
2, some of Pat's recommended frames are exactly the kind of no name brands you claim influencers dunk on.
3, even if YT influencers were as bad as you claim (which they aren't), they have no material effect on you. Carbonda & Light Bicycle still exist (and Light Bicycle is a brand Peak Torque loves). So you can keep buying and building their stuff, and enjoying their products and service no differently than before
4, Chinese bike stuff was going to get more popular and mainstream w/o influencers. The Chinese bike industry WANTS to grow and become mainstream. Them offering high quality stuff at great pricing was going to make them popular no matter what. So the growth of the industry as well as popularity was a foregone conclusion as long as the product and service provided satisfactory value.

I feel like you are unhappy that Chinese bikes aren't a secret anymore.... IDK, on one hand they kind of never were- the long existence and growing popularity of this forum is proof of that. But on the other hand, they still are- I'd wager the average road cyclist doesn't know much about Chinese bike brands outside the fact that they exist. I'm really not sure what your issue is or why people like Pat are to blame 

COVID market conditions are a good point. It's a lot easier to get a big brand bike now, and if you aren't too particular about specs some of them aren't that much more expensive. I'm pretty sure Giant bikes undercut midrange Chinese builds on price now, especially if you get one on sale.

Bump, this still drives me crazy.

I havent ridden the Eglath but it and the VB-R-066 are at the top of my list for next builds

I did find that going to narrower bars (42 to 38) and turning the hoods in really helped shorten reach. I never got a fit (I know I know) but I went through some iterations... once I got the seat height and setback right (pulling the saddle back + away from bars actually took weight off my wrists and helped me engage my glutes/hamstrings more) the fit has been great. I have an old FM098/FM208 which is kind of a quasi-endurance frame geometry wise. An Eglath/VB-R-066 would let me keep the same fit with a slammed stem (which is important).

I'm interested in an e-bike with the look and geometry of a road bike. Any ideas?

This frame is my pick of Elves lineup... love the look and the geometry. Been waiting to see one of these built up for a while