Author Topic: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build  (Read 36994 times)

Carbon_Dude

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IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« on: April 12, 2014, 09:28:16 PM »
General build order that I did:

Prior to build, I found I should have disassembled frame and greased all pivots.  Go ahead and do this before you get started.

1) Install headset, fork, spacers, stem.
    1a) Size fork and cut steer tube
2) Install bottom bracket
3) Install crank
4) Install bars
5) Install rear brake
    5a) Mount brake caliper on frame
    5b) Mount lever on bars
    5c) Route brake line through frame (IP-036)
    5d) Shorten brake line as needed (use no-bleed method)
6) Install front brake
    6a) Mount brake caliper on fork
    6b) Mount lever on bars
    6c) Shorten brake line as needed (use no-bleed method)
7) Install rear derailleur.
    7a) Mount rear derailleur to hanger
    7b) Mount shifter to bars
    7c) Run cable (IP-036 thru frame)
    7d) Cut cable housing as needed, for the IP-036 I ran the cable with housing through the frame.
    7e) Connect cable to rear derailleur (don't cut cable yet)
8 ) Install front derailleur (not needed for 1x setups)
    8a) Mount front derailleur
    8b) Mount shifter to bars
    8c) Run cable
    8d) Cut cable housing as needed. Install ferrules at each end of cable housing.
    8e) Connect cable to front derailleur (don't cut cable yet).
9) Install seatpost & seat
10) Install rear shock
11) Mount tires on wheels
      11a) Install disc brake rotors
      11b) If needed install free hub (for XX1 a XD hub is needed)
      11c) Install rear cassette
      11d) If tubeless, apply rim tape & sealant
12  Install wheels front & rear.
13) Install chain
      13a) Shorten chain as needed, per mfr instructions
14) Install pedals
15) Install remote rear shock lockout
16) Install remote fork lockout
17) Install Fox cable splitter
18) Adjust front and rear derailleurs for proper shifting, cut cables to final length.
19) Check and torque all bolts
20) Check brakes, go for a test ride

Okay, bike is finished, just took it for a quick test ride around the neighborhood.

Brakes:
I was able to shorten the rear without needing to bleed the brake line, not so lucky on the front, some air got in the line, will bleed the brake tomorrow. Still these XT brakes are amazing, noise free with great stopping power.

Shock Remote Cable Routing:
Ended up putting the hard bend in the cable so the shock body is installed facing forward. Things are working fine but I don't like the bend in the cable. Oh well, it's not like I paid $3k for the frame.

Rear Derailleur Cable:
This took much longer than expected. I originally cut the cable housings and rand bare cable through the frame. As I was setting up the rear derailleur I kept having problems with cable tension, then I noticed the ferrules slipped into the frame (I though son-of-a-b8$ch!). I pulled the housings but had two ferrules stuck inside the frame. Luckily I was able to feed a long piece of housing fully into the frame and knock out the ferrules. At this point I determined I could run a full housing all the way from the shifter, through the frame, and to the rear derailleur. This worked great, XX1 shifts flawlessly.

Fox Shock/Fork Cable Splitter:
This took much longer than expected but got them working nicely. One lever sets Climb-Trail-Decend for both the fork and the shock at the same time. Works really nice, just took a bit of time to figure out cable lengths, and such. Fox has a really good installation guide online.

Wheels:
Wheels look amazing, so happy I decided to go carbon. The XD hub was preinstalled from XMIplay so that saved my from having to purchase an XD hub and throw the standard hub away. The 3K gloss finish on the wheels is flawless also. Applied a layer of Stans rim tape, mounted the Geax tires, added some Orange Sealant and the tires aired right up very easily. Just a test ride but the feel really smooth and stiff.

Issues:
1) Issue with shock corrected with 220psi to set sag properly.
2) Issue with a creak in the lower pivot resolved with some grease.  Recommend disassembling all pivot points and applying grease prior to assembly of components.

First Ride Feedback:
1)  Tires have a lot of flex, guess it's the 120tpi casing.  The GEAX Sugauro tires are soft and grippy.
2)  Bike rolls smoothly, suspension works very well.  Bike is fast and smooth on downhill section.
3)  Bike seems to need a bit more effort to climb than my IP-056.
4)  Lockout works well, CTD lever works as advertised.
5)  XX1 rear derailleur gave me some trouble.  The chain dropped off the 42T cog on me twice, came home and adjusted the High Limit Screw.  I think that issue is resolved.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 09:45:59 AM by Carbon_Dude »


2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Sitar_Ned

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Re: IP-036 Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2014, 10:36:06 PM »
Hey Carbon_Dude..

I actually have a couple of questions if you don't mind..

1) I know you said you ran the full housing all the way through the frame.. I'd love to do that on my 057 but I've read about having to drill out a couple of spots on the frame to do so. I was wondering how you ran your rear der cable for your 056?

2) Wheels. Daammmnnnniitt!! You're making me seriously consider sending my charger expert wheelset back and hit up Light Bicycle for some carbon rims. Now, did you get them from Light Bicycle or Peter at xmiplay? I think he's offering them now as well?? Almost went that route but the price difference is rather high considering I payed $275 for the Chargers Experts. Too cheap for me to pass up on a respected wheelset that has 15mm front and 142 x 12mm rear. The carbons were going to be about $350 more than that depending on what hubs I went with. When you've had more time on them, I'd love to hear you thoughts on them.

3) So... You have both of the bikes I considered building.. Went with the hardtail.. I dunno.. I just like the idea of a simple carbon, 1x10, light weight, fast, fat tired mtb. I eventually plan on building a full suss as well.. Again, after you get a feel for the bike on some proper trails.. Would be awesome to hear your comparison of the two. Which you like better and why. I know they're different types of bikes but it would still be interesting.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 09:12:39 AM by Sitar_Ned »

Carbon_Dude

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Re: IP-036 Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2014, 08:09:03 AM »
Hey Carbon_Dude!

I actually have a couple of questions if you don't mind..

1) I know you said you ran the full housing all the way through the frame.. I'd love to do that on my 057 but I've read about having to drill out a couple of spots on the frame to do so. I was wondering how you ran your rear der cable for your 056?

On the IP/FM-056/057 frames you should not need to run full housings as the entry and exit points should have the proper opening size to run cable only with a ferrule at each end.  You would only have the housing from the outside of the frame to either the lever or derailleur.  If you you are having a problem with the cables, as I guess some have, only then would you drill out the holes (hollow metal inserts) at each end and run full housing.  It really should not be an issue either way, do what you feel most comfortable with and what works best for you.

2) Wheels. Daammmnnnniitt!! You're making me seriously consider sending my charger expert wheelset back and hit up Light Bicycle for some carbon rims. Now, did you get them from Light Bicycle or Peter at xmiplay? I think he's offering them now as well?? Almost went that route but the price difference is rather high considering I payed $275 for the Chargers Experts. Too cheap for me to pass up on a respected wheelset that has 15mm front and 142 x 12mm rear. The carbons were going to be about $350 more than that depending on what hubs I went with. When you've had more time on them, I'd love to hear you thoughts on them.

I purchased the wheels through XMIplay (30mm wide bead hook rims, Sapim Spokes & Nipples, Bitex Hubs), Peter told me these are not from Light Bikes so I'm not sure where they are actually fabricated.  Yes, the pricing is in the neighborhood of ~$600 for the complete set.  It's a great price, and seem to compare favorably against other big name (or Lightbike) wheel sets.  My other choice was going to be a set of Stans Arch EX wheels but the cost would have been about the same, the weight would have been 200g more, and they would not be as stiff as a carbon wheels.  On my IP-057, I went with a set of DT Swiss Spline XR1450 wheels.  The are super light (1450g) and cost about $475 with the XX1 XD Freehub.  I've already bent the back rim and had to have it replaced.  Peter is coming out with some hookless carbon wheels in the near future.  I may consider ordering those rims and rebuilding my IP-057 wheels and reuse the DT Swiss 240 hubs in the future.

3) So... You have both of the bikes I considered building.. Went with the hardtail.. I dunno.. I just like the idea of a simple carbon, 1x10, light weight, fast, fat tired mtb. I eventually plan on building a full suss as well.. Again, after you get a feel for the bike on some proper trails.. Would be awesome to hear your comparison of the two. Which you like better and why. I know they're different types of bikes but it still be interesting.


Okay so I've done one 10mi ride on my local trails with the IP-036.  Since it was the first time out, I spent some time adjusting things while out on the trail.  Things like seat height, angle, front/back position, lever angle, etc.  I had one issue with the rear derailleur and the chain jumping off the 42T cog.  I now have all those little issues sorted and plan on doing another ride today.  Here are my riding impressions as compared to the IP-057:

1)  Geometry feels very different between the two bikes.  The IP-036 feels more like the Specialized EPIC Carbon I demoed a few weeks back.  The wheelbase feels shorter, giving the IP-036 a quicker steering response.  The front wheel just feels a little more tucked under the frame.  My relative position between where I sit on the seat and the cranks also feels a little shorter.  The effective TT length on the IP-036 is a few mm longer so I went with a 90mm Thomson stem w/ 0 deg rise.  It's possible that I may like a 100mm stem more but it's difficult to say at this point.

2)  Standing up and pedaling also feels different, I don't feel like I'm getting as much leverage as with the IP-057.  It might be the flat bars I chose to install this time.  I also purchased a set of riser bars from Peter in case I wanted to switch.  So I plan on riding a bit more with the flat bars and if I continue to feel like I may like the riser bar more, just switch out to the riser bar and see if I like them more for my riding.

3)  The obvious reason to build a IP-036 over the IP-057 is the full suspension.  I initially built the IP-057 for the simplicity of having no rear shock to service and no pivot joints to maintain.  I had a 26" Epic and it did require more of my time to maintain and having a proprietary Brain shock I would need to spend some money sending the shock into Specialized to have it rebuilt every few years.  I eventually got tired of that and just wanted something with low maintenance so I built the IP-057 and I have to say, I've ridden that bike for about 750mi and the only thing I've done to maintain it is re-grease the bottom bracket.

I would expect the IP-036 to need more maintenance over the next year of riding, but there is plenty of information online on how to rebuild the Fox rear shock, and the pivot points are pretty simple to clean and re-grease or replace the pivot bearings.

I also decided to do lockouts on the front fork and rear shock.  The Scott Scale 910 (which this bike is very similar too) has one lever to lock the front and rear shocks, I was able to do something similar using the Fox Cable Splitter, it allows you to use the lockout lever that comes with the fork to also actuate the lockout on the rear shock.  This took a bit of fiddling but works pretty well.  My biggest complaint with the lockout is with the cable routing to the rear shock, the exit point of the internal routing is very close to the shock causing a hard bend in the cable.  It works but is not ideal.

4)  Ride difference between a Chinese FS and Chinese HT:  The IP-036 rides very smoothly, you can look down and see the pivot moving and working for you while you are on the trail.  With the Fox CTD (Climb, Trail, Descend) modes you can change the suspension settings from full open "D", which gives you some pedal bob, to partially locked "T", which removes most of the pedal bob but still allows the suspension to work (this setting is good for pedaling over bumpy terrain).  When set to mostly locked, "C" mode, the front fork is fully locked out and the rear shock is mostly locked.  There is no pedal bob, and the bike feels very stiff and efficient.  Having all these settings allows you to taylor the ride for the varying terrain, it just adds another dimension to your ride that you cannot get with a hard tail.

I will post more on my riding impressions once I get some more miles under me on this new bike.

« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 07:11:45 PM by Carbon_Dude »
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Izzy

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2014, 11:03:47 AM »
^^Very informative write up!

Just like Sitar_Ned, I'm opting for the hard tail purely out of the sake of simplicity. I also like to throw on some road wheels and hit the pavement every once in a while and the hard tail is obviously better for that. Currently trying to decide between the ip057 and ip256 frames.

I will admit to being tempted by this full suspension tho! Will def be following your build thread.


Carbon_Dude

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2014, 02:57:22 PM »
Just got back from riding the IP-036 a second time.  Here are more riding impressions:

1)  I still loving how this bike smooths out the trails.  We have lots of rocks and roots here in GA and with the suspension fully active it's like the rocks and roots are half the size, you roll over things and they are just way less harsh than on the IP-057.  Both frames do a great job with damping small bumps and vibration compared to AL framed bikes I've ridden.

2)  I'm starting to trust the new bike a bit more and I'm starting to go even faster downhill.  The IP-036 is noticeably more maneuverable than my IP-057 and the rear tire soaking up the bumps just allows for more control and rough downhill sections.

3)  Now that I have my seat and controls a bit better adjusted I just felt more comfortable on the second ride.  My seat felt better, reach to the brake levers is now exactly right.  I'm also starting to like the flat bar a bit more although I do notice that I'm leaned forward a bit more than on my IP-057 with the riser bar.  Again, good for downhill action but not as nice on my back as a little more upright position.  My stem has 0deg rise so possibly a 6-8deg rise would be helpful.

4)  Standing up and pedaling was better this time, and I notice I tend to stand up a bit more on the IP-036 since it's not climbing quite as well as my IP-056 which just feels like it needs a bit less effort to shoot up a moderate incline.

5)  My shifting issues are resolved, no more dropping the chain off the 42T rear cog.  Not sure why I didn't notice this when I was setting up the derailleur but now when I'm up in that gear my lever travel is topped out, before the lever was pushing the derailleur over just enough to feed the chain beyond the larger rear cog.

6)  Braking is still flawless, love the Shimano XT brakes.

7)  I do get an odd snap of what feels like the chain once in a while under high load, not often, only one or two times during the ride.  Almost like something is sticking and then breaks free.  It's a very small snap but I can hear and feel something, just now sure what combination of gear/suspension/terrain seems to cause it.

Overall I'm very happy with the IP-036, the goal was to have a second bike that is different from the IP-057, something with full suspension, something that rides smooth and fast.  I think I accomplished my goal with this build.
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Carbon_Dude

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2014, 05:38:57 PM »
Okay, backing up a bit.  Here are pictures of my 19" IP-036 frame prior to assembly:

Unboxing:


I like the way the B&W paint scheme came out.  With the white Fox fork I will be adding, the B&W paint scheme will flow better.


Frame weight ended up at 2250g (4.95 lbs) as you see it here.  XMIplay lists the weight at 1950g which must be for the medium or small size.


Would have been nice to see a smoother curve on the edge of the white paint, but hey the price was right.


Carbon Fiber Layup Looks REALLY good.


The seat tube has more curve than I expected.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 05:40:36 PM by Carbon_Dude »
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Carbon_Dude

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2014, 05:45:25 PM »
In this post I will provide some more detail of the build:

This is how I did  my cable routing:

Rear Derailleur (not going to have a front derailleur with the XX1 drivetrain).  Ended up running full cable housing through the frame.






Rear Brake.







Rear Shock Remote Cable:

Entry into the frame is shown in the same pic as the rear derailleur.
Here is where the cable exits.  Unfortunately, for the Fox shock, it ends up being a bit tight and puts a sharper bend in the cable.



The remaining external cable run would be used for the front derailleur.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 06:42:35 PM by Carbon_Dude »
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Carbon_Dude

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2014, 06:40:14 PM »
Here are some pictures of the bike with the build complete.  Finished build weight is 24 lbs (10.9 Kg).

I know if I really wanted to I could easily knock a pound off if I went with lighter (race weight) tires like some Racing Ralphs.  The Geax Saguaro TNT tires weighed in at 1590g vs the RR are typically 1100g for a pair.  So, 23-24 lbs for a FS bike is pretty nice.  My last FS bike was a Specialized Epic 26er which weighed over 28 lbs.  Nice to have a bigger bike that's also lighter.









« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 07:32:21 PM by Carbon_Dude »
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Sitar_Ned

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 01:18:44 AM »
Holy crap, man.. No exaggeration.. That thing is bad ass looking!

I'm jealous!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 06:55:09 PM by Sitar_Ned »

Sitar_Ned

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2014, 01:25:48 AM »
Not to nit pick your riding style or anything... But you say you notice you stand up on the climbs more with the 036.. Am I mistaken when I think that standard mtb riding advice is that you should sit and spin on a full suss, and stand and mash on a hard tail..

I know I've read that more than once, that of course doesn't mean that it's true.. Just thought I'd throw it out there.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 06:55:24 PM by Sitar_Ned »

Carbon_Dude

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 07:01:47 AM »
Not to nit pick your riding style man... But you say you notice you stand up on the climbs more with the 036.. Am I mistaken when I think that standard mtb riding advice is that you should sit and spin on a full suss, and stand and mash on a hard tail..

I know I've read that more than once, that of course doesn't mean that it's true.. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

Ned, I would agree with you, normally I would expect to stand up more on the hardtail, and sit and spin on the FS but with this bike I am just finding it easier to stand up on some of the short up hill sections.  Why?  I think because I'm losing more momentum on the FS than I would the hardtail.

However, I need to remember, this is a different bike and as such I need to change my riding style to take advantage of having full suspension.  As I get a better feel for the new bike I ams sure I will get faster and learn how to better maintain my momentum on the trail.  My second ride felt much better than the first and I was a bit faster.  I time all my rides with a Planet Bike Protege 9 bike computer.  For the trail I ride here in GA, Chicopee Woods, I can turn a 10 mile loop in about one hour, so I target a 10mph average speed.  Given the uphills, rocks, roots, creek crossings, ruts, and washed out sections, this is not an easy loop.  Now that I have the FS, I can continue to hone my skills and improve me riding.   
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Sitar_Ned

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 09:38:51 AM »


The seat tube has more curve than I expected.


Looking at these pics again.. What am I looking at here? Is it supposed to be curved from left to right like that? Doesn't seem like it should be but maybe my perspective is off or something.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 09:40:46 AM by Sitar_Ned »

Carbon_Dude

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 01:59:55 PM »
That's a view from the rear dropouts looking toward the head tube.  This shows just how curved the seat tube is left to right.  Pictures don't do it justice.
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Andy

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2014, 07:04:14 PM »
Say CD Question for you.  Do you think this frame would work better with a 100mm or 120mm travel front fork?

Thanks,
Andy. :)

Carbon_Dude

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Re: IP-036 29er Full Suspension Carbon Frame Build
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 07:29:47 PM »
I think it would work well with either 100mm or 120mm fork, I think the amount of travel should depend on the trails you ride.  I almost bought a 120mm fork for my build but found a 100mm Fox Evolution w/remote for $400 on eBay.  For the trails I ride, 100mm seems to be adequate.
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+)2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA