Author Topic: Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)  (Read 5399 times)

stout_to_carbon

Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)
« on: April 18, 2015, 11:54:02 AM »
I have an IP-256 frame with a FK029 fork.  I ride hard, and the fork broke.

Does anyone else ride a rigid setup with foreign-sourced carbon parts?

« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 06:33:51 PM by stout_to_carbon »



Carbon_Dude

Re: Anyone ride rigid?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2015, 01:17:47 PM »
That's looks scary!  Hopefully you did not get hurt when that fork broke.  Do you think the fork should have been able to withstand the abuse or do yo think you just over stressed it?
2019 Stumpjumper Expert 29/27.5+
2017 Santa Cruz Stigmata
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+) (Sold)
2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

Oolak

Re: Anyone ride rigid?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2015, 02:21:59 PM »
Wow, that does look scary. I think that's one of the first major failures I've seen with the Chinese carbon. Could we get some more details about how this happened? I'm guessing there had to be some impact of some kind for this to happen, and not just normal riding stresses?

325racer

Re: Anyone ride rigid?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2015, 02:32:16 PM »
Eeek,

I ride rigid with mine and do some pretty hard stuff.  I try to find the smoothest lines possible, but doesn't always work out.

I had a pretty hard crash last week, but everything looks fine on mine.  Mine is the IP-FK-052, which looks the same, but is 15mm through instead of quick release.

stout_to_carbon

Re: Anyone ride rigid?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2015, 06:12:43 PM »
Pardon me for cross-posting from that other popular forum, but this should answer your questions.

http://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-discussion/broken-carbon-fork-while-braking-963171.html


Sitar_Ned

Re: Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2015, 09:42:36 PM »
So you believe it was the braking forces that caused the failure? Yeah, that definitely shouldn't happen.

When I built my bike, my strategy was to buy only the frame direct from China, and use top quality name-brand parts everywhere else.. Whenever I do the next build I think I'll stick to that same strategy. Maybe just buy the frame and rims from a China supplier. Maybe my logic is misguided here, but it just seems that components like bars, posts, forks would require the use of thinner carbon as compared to what's used in the frame. If I remember correctly, the thinner the carbon that's being used, the more important quality, and quality testing becomes. My 057 frame I have total confidence in. Tons of those frames have been tested over the past few years and I can't really recall any failures that were'n't caused by impact, or other things that would damage any carbon frame. So if I had a chiner seat post instead of my Easton carbon haven post then I'm not sure how confident I'd be with it. And confidence in your gear is everything.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 10:00:23 AM by Sitar_Ned »

Izzy

Re: Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 09:33:58 AM »
^^ Eh, I think that's pretty decent logic.

Theres's really no way of knowing for sure if this was caused purely from braking forces or not. It could've been stressed or fractured before the actual breakage occurred. I mean, it's a rigid carbon fork that people are using for all mountain riding - I'm sorry, but that's just not smart. Suspension does more than make your ride more comfortable, it hugely reduces the stress to certain components - Especially when it comes to forks as they receive so much direct stress. I honestly think these forks are being misused. I've seen a few of the broken forks but again, don't buy a rigid carbon fiber fork and ride the hell out of it through rocky terrain and then be surprised it didn't stand up to the abuse.

Pardon me for cross-posting from that other popular forum, but this should answer your questions.

http://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-discussion/broken-carbon-fork-while-braking-963171.html

This is why I don't bother with MTBR anymore. Nothing but "buy cheap Chinese and you deserve what you get" comments. I'm all about us as consumers sharing opinions so that we can make more informed purchasing decisions but that's just pure idiocy. There are literally thousands of these Chinese parts out there and very few incidents with them failing. Not to mention, that lots of the "name brand" carbon has the exact same material from the exact same molds, and there has also been FAR more name brand carbon failures than Chinese carbon failures. Yes, I realize one reason is because there are more name brand parts around to break, but the point is: They still fail. It's about choosing the right material and the right component for your riding. If the seller is going to replace that fork I would advise that you promptly sell it and get a suspension fork or heavy duty rigid. Not because the Chinese carbon fork isn't up to par, but because it is the wrong tool for the job.

Either way, I'm glad to hear you didn't get hurt by the failure or the snake! Could've been a far worse day that's for sure.

Carbon_Dude

Re: Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 11:52:32 AM »
I totally agree Izzy!
2019 Stumpjumper Expert 29/27.5+
2017 Santa Cruz Stigmata
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+) (Sold)
2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

RS VR6

Re: Anyone ride rigid?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2015, 02:56:49 PM »
Pardon me for cross-posting from that other popular forum, but this should answer your questions.

http://forums.mtbr.com/bike-frame-discussion/broken-carbon-fork-while-braking-963171.html

Skimmed through the post...now you're making me nervous about the frame I just ordered. ;D

The fork looked like it stood up to the pounding...and it just couldn't handle the braking forces or the combination of both.

Even if the Chinese makers did provide "test" results...how the heck would know you its real? How many of the buyers would even be able to make use/translate of the test data? The risk you take is the unknown QC on the parts...but at the same time how do you know the QC is up to par with the big brand makers? Guys on MTBR make it sound like parts don't fail from the big brands. Both Trek and Cervelo have had recalls with breaking carbon forks. Thomson had stems where the face plate would crack and fail.

Only consolation with a big brand is that if a part does break...there is someone to contact and possibly take responsibility if that broken part hurts you.

When ordering anything from China at a huge discount...you have to pretty much assume that if the part you bought fails...you are SOL. :-\
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 04:12:47 PM by RS VR6 »

MTNRCKT

Re: Anyone ride rigid?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2015, 06:13:33 PM »

Only consolation with a big brand is that if a part does break...there is someone to contact and possibly take responsibility if that broken part hurts you.

When ordering anything from China at a huge discount...you have to pretty much assume that if the part you bought fails...you are SOL. :-\

Maybe before, but it seems most guys that have issues with a chiner part are taken care of by the vendor. Especially when ordering from Peter bc this forum keeps him fairly accountable from what I can tell. And that's a good thing.

Took this quote from the linked MTBR thread:

Quote
The supplier is really tops. Sending a new fork without question. I dearly would like to reward a dealer like this with repeat business.

He's not SOL at all.

RS VR6

Re: Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2015, 07:43:38 PM »
The sketchy part to me are the vendors. What if the fork broke a year from now? Who knows where these guys will be in a year? Who's to say that they don't shut down and start another company under a different name?

All these open mold frames don't seem to be exclusive to one single vendor. Most of them are nothing more than trading companies buying from the same source. New vendors pop up on eBay all the time selling the same parts. Who knows...it just might be the same guys with multiple accounts. The ones I bought my frame from seems to have more than one.

I'm not saying that all the vendors are shady...some do own up to what they sell...and that is a good thing if these vendors plan to stay around for more than a couple years.

All I'm saying is that you just have to know what you're getting into when you purchase an item from across the planet from an largely unknown source. :)

I bought my frame (which should be here any day) from a new eBay vendor with 17 feedbacks. My frame carries a "two year warranty"...I honestly don't think they'll be on eBay for that long. If my frame busts after one year...I'll just buy another one...they are cheap enough to replace often.  ;D

MTNRCKT

Re: Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2015, 08:01:26 PM »
The sketchy part to me are the vendors. What if the fork broke a year from now? Who knows where these guys will be in a year? Who's to say that they don't shut down and start another company under a different name?

All these open mold frames don't seem to be exclusive to one single vendor. Most of them are nothing more than trading companies buying from the same source. New vendors pop up on eBay all the time selling the same parts. Who knows...it just might be the same guys with multiple accounts. The ones I bought my frame from seems to have more than one.

I'm not saying that all the vendors are shady...some do own up to what they sell...and that is a good thing if these vendors plan to stay around for more than a couple years.

All I'm saying is that you just have to know what you're getting into when you purchase an item from across the planet from an largely unknown source. :)

I bought my frame (which should be here any day) from a new eBay vendor with 17 feedbacks. My frame carries a "two year warranty"...I honestly don't think they'll be on eBay for that long. If my frame busts after one year...I'll just buy another one...they are cheap enough to replace often.  ;D

Good points and I mostly agree. But that's why ordering from someone like Peter who has at least some degree of accountability - in that if he totally screwed someone over on this forum he'd likely lose some future business by doing so - is a bit better than going the random eBay route. Now, I'm not knocking the eBay route at all. It's slightly cheaper and like you said, at that price, just order another in the unlikely event of a failure and still come out ahead. I'm also not pushing for Peter. It's just that he's the only one really involved at all on the forum. If another seller came in and was active and built some trust with the community then I'd prefer them over the eBay route as well.

But you're right about not knowing where the molds/frames come from. If a seller could be open about these topics and educate potential customers about where their frames come from, who manufacturers them, etc.. It'd be a good way to build business by building trust.

Carbon_Dude

Re: Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2015, 08:25:33 PM »
When I ordered my IP-057 from XMIplay, I did research on MTBR.com to see who were the top sellers.  I could have gone to eBay and gotten the frame cheaper, mostly just free shipping but I chose to go with a vendor that seemed to be involved on MTBR.

At the time XMIplay, DongFu, and HongFu were all recommended sellers and here we are two years later and they have done nothing but grow their businesses.  I think as long as you don't order from a vendor with zero reputation, they will be around and most likely stand behind their products.
2019 Stumpjumper Expert 29/27.5+
2017 Santa Cruz Stigmata
2017 Trek Stache 9.8 (29+)
2016 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Carbon Comp 6Fattie (27.5+) (Sold)
2016 Trek Stache 9 (29+) w/upgrades (Sold)
2014 -036 Full Suspension Chiner (Sold)
2013 -057 Hardtail Carbon Chiner (Sold)
Atlanta, GA

seahog32

Re: Anyone ride rigid? (broken fork)
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2015, 03:36:21 PM »
Just a few thoughts, mostly answers to the claims on the advantage of brand carbon parts in comparison to the no-name Chinese carbon.

Unlike metals and alloys, carbon fibre coposites' strength characteristics change depending on orientation of the fibres. Layout of the carbon sheets should be adjusted to the direction of forces that the parts (in this case the bike parts) will be exposed to. Looking at the photos of the broken fork it looks like the fibres simply follow the usual basic crisscross pattern. That is of course hard to say based just on the pictures. What the big name bike manufacturers state is that their designers spend significant amount of time and brain power measuring and/or calculating those forces and applying the ensuing knowledge to the bike design. That well may be true in the top of the line products but allow me to be a little skeptical when speaking about anything other that the WC level stuff. IMO in most cases the layers of the material are more likely simply multiplied in the areas of increased stress.
This can be probably done even without any real engineering expertise simply using common sense, preferably of someone who spends at least some time riding and thinking about bicycles. That is what we should and possibly even can expect from the better of the generic carbon fibre parts made in China. We can also assume that these parts are made in the same factories where the big brands are having their parts made or at least in operations started and run by people who were at some point involved in manufacturing of the brand name products. In other words, they should possess the necessary know-how and skills.
The other issue is the QC. The big brand manufacturers likely do test their products on regular basis as they claim to to assure the manufacturing does not drift too far from the original designer's vision. Frankly, this is unlikely to happen in operations with a limited margin of profit and this will always be and inherent risk in buying inexpensive no-name parts.
However, whoever thinks that his particular fork or frame passed the same stress testing he can see in youtube videos, is badly mistaken. And he better be! Carbon composite materials are all subjects to material fatigue and the tests are intended to expose the products to the use and abuse they can expect over their life time ( as in "life time warranty", i.e. products life time, not yours). I certainly would not like to ride a fork that passed that testing.
Which brings me to the bottom line. Nothing lasts for ever. Neither me nor you nor this whole universe. Not even that newest shiny carbon fibre thingy you've bought for your hard earned cash. Even the big name products fail and sometimes they fail quite spectacularly. Yes, you get what you pay for and no, you can never have all the information you would like to.  There is no reason for bashing the no-name made-in-China stuff as there is no reason to idolize it. Everybody's decisions must be conscious but nobody can know everything. Ultimately, life is a game of chance. One needs to handle his chips wisely but everybody will have only as much fun as he dares to. As long as the laws of thermodynamics are right, at the end the house always wins anyway.