Brands command a premium, for what benefit?
With Giant being the exception (a brand that owns / is the factories), you have factories that make frames for brands, and brands distribute and sell. Each layer needs to eat. The further away from China, the more expensive the layer, and the less relevant (carbon bike market is now so commoditized with all frames looking the same and within 5w of each other). Therefore, the closer to the factory, the better the value & the less bullsh1t.
It is telling that Pinarello has frames made in china and they paint them in Italy. You can get real custom... because of the paint. Factor is the same: their frame looks open mould, but you get to really tune... the paint.
There's something to be said about where the expertise really lies. Take carbon layup. Is it Specialized that's really the expert, or Specialized suppliers? I dont have the answer, but it's important when thinking about light frames: as of now, T700 is ghetto. T800 is the gold standard, most legit carbon things are made with it. And then you go into fancy territory, with T1000, T1100, and increasingly, you see exotic things like M30, M40, and others. As brands brand (ie differentiate), there's also the question of how much a brand is making shit up (what does specialized's Fact carbon actually mean? Ditto with Pinarello's different carbon tiers). T1000 is "known" (rumoured?) to cost about 2x T800, so you will NOT see a frame made with T1000 for $500. If T1000 and $500 are seen on the same page, it means they (at best) INCLUDE T1000 in the frame, but it could be 1% - obviously, that's unregulated, Chinese are known to basically lie, and, maybe most importantly, you can't test it yourself -. The biggest benefit of higher tiers is you can use less of it for the same strength, so frames get lighter.
And so, you're left with the usual questions:
- Do you want to pay extra for a brand? The Chinese market now has brands, including Specialized equivalent brands (ie social media fluff fest). As a westerner, i'd say buying a Chinese brand is the worst choice possible: you pay a premium, but you're not in China, so you can't flex at the cafe your branded bigcock frame that nobody knows, and you can't lean on the bigcock bike shop for help / maintenance / support / warranty / i spent money here please be make me feel important and refer to me as your lordship.
- If you buy a western brand, (1) you (usually) get to rely on your local LBS, (2) you get a frame that's been QCed (questionable truth), (3) and if you buy something high end, you buy a vibe around layup technology, ride properties, the secret sauce that makes it so that when you jump on a specialized, your hair grows back, your biceps get more defined, and the ladies look at you like "ooh myyyy". (3) goes back to my point above on who actually has the layup know how.
So, a rational actor will wonder: how much more over an equivalent spec (features & weight) OEM frame am i willing to spend to benefit from 1-2-3?
- If you buy an OEM frame, you have to trust that (A) the factory / broker actually exists (people on this forum still using paypal insurance scheme to send money to Farsports is money down the drain, as far as i'm concerned), (B) they will ship you what you ordered (when Airwolf on Aliexpress sells you a frame for 12 dollars made of full T1100, spoiler alert, they're lying), (C) they will ship you a frame that's not a dog, and that's been QCed enough (Light carbon shipping cheese, Tavelo with undersized BBs whose shells crack during install, and all the horror stories you can find on here with Airwolf, tantan, workswell, and so on).
- On (C), because a seller will usually tell you not to worry, then ship you swiss cheese anyway, you have to factor in an element of risk: more often than not, seller A (after careful consideration on your part to choose that seller) will ship good frames, but occasionally, they will fuck up, at which point you need to be qualified enough to understand where they fucked up, and complain. Also, let's be honest, in many instances, people complaining about frames is USER ERROR, or such trivial niggles that the factory should indeed ignore the noises you make. And you have to complain loud enough, to a seller that is honest enough / has enough of an incentive to listen and help.
And so, this forum is invaluable in helping identify (a) where the value is, (b) good sellers, (c) and bad ones.
For light frames, it depends on what you deem light (and what tyre clearance you need). A lot of 2024 frames are around or below 1000g in Medium (starting with the Velobuild 268, which really is the standard of value). SP Cycle claims a 880g frame (30C, R025-SL), Yishun has an endurance frame at 900g, Long Teng claims their chonky boy 301 is 980g. I havent mapped out the lighter side of the market, because i'm over 80kg myself, but i would say: reach out to OEM with a good reputation on this forum, ideally order 2 frames and build 1 for a friend (or more), as you will command better care and attention, ask questions, accept the risk that no matter what you do, you may have problems to solve, but deal with someone who will more likely than not agree to help you rather than ghost you, and have fun.
Or buy a Giant TCR, ofc, once you've swallowed the upfront cost, rarely do people regret buying a branded frame.
Notes:
- on light carbon, recent precedents make them look bad (1 example of awful cheese carbon, 1 example of a down tube you could deform by hand, off the top of my head, but they generally have great reputation, and they're linked to Yishun (if i'm not mistaken), which also has great reputation.
- on tantan, plenty of people report horror stories, but they also OEM for big brands, and they are huge (assuming a constant error rate, the bigger you are, the more errors). As such, and because perfection is an ideal, nor a reality, they're probably still a good counterpart.
- Airwolf has an error rate so high it makes errors part of who they are, so you probably dont want to buy frames from them. But i've been buying cockpits from them, and i love their cockpits. So even that is more nuanced than just "avoid airwolf"
What do i know? I've been riding bikes for a long time, most of my friends ride bikes and many of them are champions, and i've built 9 chinese bikes in the last 2y.
These opinions are my own and as a matter of course, i tend to agree with what i say, which doesn't make it truth.
