Flight of the Replacement Build...a Pack66 debacle.

[Pack66]

So rather than clutter up the WW 062, CS-057 and other threads with questions about each bike, I figured I should make my own thread chronicling my first Chinese Hardtail build.

Last week I found a crack in my 2009 Gary Fisher X-Cal 29er, a bike I thoroughly enjoyed riding. The only other bike available for me is a 1993 17" Rockhopper, which is fun but doesn't fit and is not a 29er. So I'm without bike until I can get this done. Eventually (next tax check), I plan on buying or building a new bike, either a full suspension fat bike or full sus plus bike. Depending on how this goes, I may sell this replacement frame bike to fund that purchase or keep both. As this is a budget build, I'm trying to transfer as many components from my old bike to the new frame as possible. This includes my Fox F80RL fork with G2 offset. I've read here that these G2 forks should be on 69 or slacker bikes (thanks to all I discussed this with on the WW 062 thread). As an aside, I ride in and around Tucson so trail types tend to vary from XC to DH. I ride mostly Honeybee/Rail X which is typical XC, but would prefer an All Mountain build with modern geometry if I can make it work.

I'd like to get the CS-057 from XMCarbonspeed which has the relatively short 440mm chainstays and 69 degree head angle, but it's at the top of my budget and almost priced out of it. So that leaves me with a few contenders from FlyXII and Workswell, who have had good and bad reviews on this site, but it seems generally good. These are:

-The FR202. Has very similar geometry to my 2009 GF. A head tube angle of 69, chainstays of 445mm (same as my Fisher) and 135mm QR dropouts. The dropouts are not changeable, it seems. This bike is the cheapest of the three, has the head tube angle/geo that I like, looks great (from the builds I've seen). I just wish I had the option of changing the dropouts. I have 135mm wheels, but would like the option of getting 142mm wheels on down the line.

-The FR216. Has a head tube angle of 70.5 and chainstays of 440mm. Option for either 142mm or 135mm dropouts, which I like. A little worse angle than the FR202, but shorter chainstays. Not many builds on ChinerTown that I've seen, so it's kind of an unknown. More expensive by $50USD.

-The Workswell 062. Has a head tube angle of 71 (steepest of three) and chainstays of 430mm (shortest of three). Option for 142mm or 135mm dropouts, which I like. A little more expensive than the other two, but the 062 thread here on Chinertown is extensive and it seems like a popular frame. It appears to have the most chainstay clearance of the three for possibly going to 27+ tires later on, which I'd like to do if I keep the bike.

So any thoughts on which way to go? Does short chainstay trump a slack-ish head tube angle? Does having the option of 142mm dropouts enhance the possibility of future sale/upgradeability (even though Boost is "it"), trumping Geometry? Does 1 to 2 degrees of head tube angle really make that much of a difference?

Thanks to all those that have posted their builds/threads. Without the likes of BXCc, Sportingoods and Activ3, I doubt that I would be considering this as an option to replacing my frame. And thanks to whomever made this site, it's been a Godsend for information.

I look forward to hearing any constructive comments/criticisms the hive mind may have.  Thanks!

[bxcc]

Don't forget to check the axle to crown measurement they used to get the HA. Workswell uses a measurement of 497 to attain 71 degree HA. My 100mm RS Sid is roughly 506mm making it 70.5. Running a 120mm fork will put you at 69.5 which isn't too bad. Not really slack but not old school XC steep either. You mention running a 80mm fork for the time being. Just go for it. It may not be ideal but it will still be much better than any XC hardtail from 10 years ago. And when the budget allows, go for 120mm.

[Pack66]

So an update of sorts. I've narrowed my choices down to the the FR202 and the WW 062. I'm a bit concerned by what I've read about Flyxii, but it also seems that some MTBR/CT members have had good luck with them. I like the slacker HT on the FR202 and it mostly mirrors my GF Xcal in geometry. The WW 062 seems to be more popular/polished/better quality, but I don't like the steeper HT. I'm curious if the chainstay (which is phenomenally short on the 062), makes a difference, so I'm going to try and test ride something similar here in town with a short chainstay. The venerable CS-057 has everything I want, but it's just too expensive. For the price of the CS-057, I could purchase the FR202 and have it built by my LBS. I loved dealing with XMCarbonspeed though, and they are definitely on the short list when I do my next build next year...a full suspension fat bike, hopefully.

[bxcc]

WW-062 = Specialized Stumpjumper carbon hardtail
Find one of those to demo and you'll know what the 062 rides like.

[Pack66]

Thanks for all your help and suggestions BXCC. I test rode one last week. Just a quick parking lot ride, but I'll try for a more extended ride this week if I can. Next on the list is to try out a Trek Superfly to see if I can a difference in Geometry. As we discussed earlier, I know I'm overthinking this a bit.

[cmh]

WW-062 = Specialized Stumpjumper carbon hardtail
Find one of those to demo and you'll know what the 062 rides like.

Many of these bikes copy the geometry of the Scott Scale, which my wife has and has been riding and racing for years now. She rode the 041 whose geometry is a number-by-number copy, and found it both harsher and slower than the Scale. Copying the geometry doesn't copy the ride, so I wouldn't project that a test ride of the Stumpy HT would translate directly to the Chiner copy. That doesn't mean the Chiner's a bad bike, but it might set you up for some disappointment if you expect a 1-to-1 comparison.

Most of those frames are designs that have been around for a while, and have proven to be reliable, so should be a safe bet.

[Pack66]

Thanks for the reply cmh. Quite honestly, I'm not looking for weight savings and I'm realistic in what I'm getting. I'm just looking to replace a frame that was broken. The most inexpensive (somewhat) way of doing that, as well as the most intriguing, is to go to a Chinese carbon vendor.  Well, I could go for a cheap nashbar/performance frame, but I don't like any options there really. I've looked at used eBay offerings, but there really hasn't been anything that was of much interest...other than a 2011 Horsethief frame and I think that was a little overpriced. Most likely the cheapest option would be to buy new, but where's the fun in that?

[bxcc]

WW-062 = Specialized Stumpjumper carbon hardtail
Find one of those to demo and you'll know what the 062 rides like.

Many of these bikes copy the geometry of the Scott Scale, which my wife has and has been riding and racing for years now. She rode the 041 whose geometry is a number-by-number copy, and found it both harsher and slower than the Scale. Copying the geometry doesn't copy the ride, so I wouldn't project that a test ride of the Stumpy HT would translate directly to the Chiner copy. That doesn't mean the Chiner's a bad bike, but it might set you up for some disappointment if you expect a 1-to-1 comparison.

Most of those frames are designs that have been around for a while, and have proven to be reliable, so should be a safe bet.

True, the frames do give a different ride, but the geometry is still the same. I have the WW-062 and my buddy has a SJ, I was trying to get him to ditch the super harsh aluminum frame and go for the cheap carbon version so we were swapping back and forth on a ride one day. He ended up getting a 2016 SJ FSR Carbon instead. I can say that this frame is MUCH more compliant than the SJ aluminum frame. Maybe that is good or maybe it's bad because the frame is cheaply made, the verdict is still out on that one. However, the OP is worried about the geometry not being quite what he wants so this will help him decide. And coming from an older aluminum frame, I'm pretty sure it should feel a little better than what he is used to.

[cmh]

Thanks for the reply cmh. Quite honestly, I'm not looking for weight savings and I'm realistic in what I'm getting. I'm just looking to replace a frame that was broken. The most inexpensive (somewhat) way of doing that, as well as the most intriguing, is to go to a Chinese carbon vendor.  Well, I could go for a cheap nashbar/performance frame, but I don't like any options there really. I've looked at used eBay offerings, but there really hasn't been anything that was of much interest...other than a 2011 Horsethief frame and I think that was a little overpriced. Most likely the cheapest option would be to buy new, but where's the fun in that?

Yeah, as long as you're going in understanding what you're getting, there's no reason to not go with one of the proven frames. As I understand it, the 202 has been around for a long time - I almost bought one used on here when I first started looking at Chiner frames - I think it's been around longer than the 057. That probably explains why it's less expensive, but that also means it's well proven.

Regarding the cheap Nashbar/Performance frames, I had the Nashbar aluminum CX frame... no real complaints but honestly I never really loved the bike.  If you compare apples to apples, the Nashbar carbon 29er hardtail is $499 - you could get a better frame for less than that going direct.

Full disclosure: my emphasis on getting something that's a proven design comes from getting an 041 that cracked at the seat tube under a light rider on a very tame trail. It was a fairly new frame design, and I get the idea that the early adopters also get to be beta testers. Older frames like the 057, I know several folks who have that one and they aren't light and they don't ride easy trails and they have no complaints. So, my opinion is let some other fool (like me) be the beta tester, stick with something that's older and has been proven to work.

Buying used is always a crapshoot. I've had mixed results on that front as well. Some good bikes that got years of reliable service, some that weren't as good as expected.

Now as for geometry? I can't help ya there, seems to be a black art, and I find just riding the bikes to be the biggest thing. Kinda hard to do in your case!

[SportingGoods]

I own a Flyxii FR-202 frame. Almost 2 years now. I love it, it's a very good frame. Very strong, nice geometry. I had no issue either technical or logistic (well packed frame, fast delivery). It's also extremely cheap.

On the down side:
- the shop owner is very difficult to interact with, most likely because of language.
- it's already old style: no thru-axle, HTA > 69°, long chainstay

I'm now moving to a 27.5+ frame and I'm recycling this FR-202 into a road disc bike. So, this is really a frame I like and trust.

Your option: if you like the FR-202 geometry and cash is a big factor, go for it. If peace of mind is top of your list (ability to discuss with the vendor and have a real service and support) then go with CarbonSpeed products. Peter has sorted me out of logistic problems twice already. A dependable vendor costs about 50% of the frame you buy

[Pack66]

@SportingGoods: I've read a lot of your posts on the FR202, thanks for sharing your build. One question, I thought the HTA was 69° on the 19" frame?

*edit:  And at $265 shipped w/headset and seatpost collar, it's extremely tempting, even w/o the 142mm dropouts.

[SportingGoods]

19" is 69.5° HTA with a 100 mm fork. I use a 110mm to lower it a bit, BB height compensated by smaller diameter wheels (27.5+ vs. 29)

I should have picked a 17.5" size. I kept reducing my stem. My reverb dropper post is almost down to the max. I made sure to pick a better fitting frame this time (496 in 17")

[trekcarbonboy]

Older frames like the 057, I know several folks who have that one and they aren't light and they don't ride easy trails and they have no complaints.

What the hell?!?!?! 

[Pack66]

So a quick update. I noticed a 2011 Salsa Spearfish for sale locally. Super tempted to go for that instead, even though it's 5 years old. So I'm going to test ride it and decide this weekend. If I don't buy it, I think I'll be going for the FR202 from an eBay seller (88bike or Bikemall). I'm concerned that if I go the frame swap route, more parts than I expect won't fit the FR202 from my Gary Fisher. I'm fairly sure the BBs are the same, but maybe the GF BB is shot? 

On top of all this, I truly do want a FS bike and I can't afford to build one now. If I go FR202, I'll wait til next year to either buy or build a nice FS. If I go the Spearfish route, I'm probably waiting a fair while longer. I'm concerned about the travel on the Spearfish, but in all honesty, most of my riding here in Tucson isn't that Technical...and up until my frame broke, ridden with a HT.  All that said, having never had carbon and enjoying the one ride I did have with it, I'm still intrigued greatly by the FR202.  Especially with the price.  Did I mention that I ran across a custom builder that looks like they use the FR202 (or similar geo frame), the Leopard 29er. Paralysis by analysis...decisions, decisions.

[Pack66]

Well, one final update. Yesterday my wife made a comment which she's learned to regret...All these used bikes and talking about building bikes...why don't you just get what you want?  So I did.  I'd also like to say that I was a little inspired by Carbon_Dude and his 6Fattie Stumpie. Sweet bike.

I ended up buying a 2017 Trek Fuel EX 8 27.5 Plus. I found a killer deal at a LBS on a demo they've had for just a few months and I couldn't pass it up. Feels good to support a LBS and the bike is literally everything I want in a bike. Full suspension with a good amount of travel. Plus size tires. Dropper post and BOOST (although that's not as big a deal, but I'd rather have it than not at this point).

At some point, I may still try and build up a carbon HT. It really does intrigue me quite a bit. But that will have to wait til at least next year.