MTB Home trainer Software

[SportingGoods]

Reviewing the article it looks like this PowerPod is not a good choice for MTB:

"Finally, one area that doesn’t work well is cobbles.  I recognize this is largely a European problem, and not so much a North American one – but, it’s a valid problem for me since my streets are littered with them.  In my testing, the unit simply doesn’t produce accurate power when riding cobblestones.  Within seconds of hitting such a patch of roadway, the unit pretty much shrugs and gives up.  It’s like this emoticon: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

No obvious choice for now...

[karstenhorn]

Reviewing the article it looks like this PowerPod is not a good choice for MTB:

"Finally, one area that doesn’t work well is cobbles.  I recognize this is largely a European problem, and not so much a North American one – but, it’s a valid problem for me since my streets are littered with them.  In my testing, the unit simply doesn’t produce accurate power when riding cobblestones.  Within seconds of hitting such a patch of roadway, the unit pretty much shrugs and gives up.  It’s like this emoticon: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

No obvious choice for now...

My primary focus with regards to power meter is my road bike and I agree, it seems like it is not the best option for MTB riding. However I guess it is better than nothing - When spring comes I will try it out on a few rides and come back with some feedback.

Karsten

[seahog32]

I've received my Elite Qubo Fluid on Saturday. The equipment is just as I thought: very quiet (the one thing I hear is the sound of my drivetrain, not the trainer), smooth ride. As a premium Strava subscriber I get 2 month free on Zwift. I like it for now. I did a 30 minutes ride on Saturday (rain all day long). It felt short. I did a 45 minutes FTP test on Sunday, felt short again (I wanted a point of reference to track my progress). I feel that 90 minutes ride should be no problem.
Zwift is a lot of fun, the 3D environment is just as good as a real video to me and it's so nice to see "real" virtual people.

The Trainer has no piece of electronics at all (pure fluid roller). I stay on the small ring and get enough range there. I pushed over 600W during the FTP test and can roll easy at 60W for warm up, always in a cadence that is appropriate. I don't need more then that, and if I ever do, I'll just get on the big chainring. That's why I have picked this trainer, you control the resistance through the speed (cadence and gear).

I am probably missing something so be patient with me but I thought Zwift was supposed to be used with so called "smart" trainers to get that close to reality riding feeling (resistance increasing when riding "uphill", decreasing on "downhill" and "drafting" behind other riders. I can't see how your setup could deliver that.
Also, and I am not trying to get into a discussion of "mine is bigger, no way yours so big!", but FTP of 600W seems to be a bit excessive. If I'm not confused Jens Voigt used to have one of 450W. Now, that might have been a full one hour FTP (I am not sure what testing method did you use but most people don't subscribe to the full 60 mins. of torture so I will work with an assumption it was 20 mins.) but even if that was the case and Jens' 20 to 60 minutes FTP drop-off was as high as 50W (unlikely), it would put his 20 min FTP at 500W. In other words yours seems to be 20% better than the former hour record holder's. To me it looks like your testing method might be flawed in a way that would seriously skew your Zwift experience. And don't get me wrong. I don't use Zwift and don't care about any leaderboards there either. Of course it is well possible that those 600W was just a typo and I've wasted my coffee break here.

[karstenhorn]

I've received my Elite Qubo Fluid on Saturday. The equipment is just as I thought: very quiet (the one thing I hear is the sound of my drivetrain, not the trainer), smooth ride. As a premium Strava subscriber I get 2 month free on Zwift. I like it for now. I did a 30 minutes ride on Saturday (rain all day long). It felt short. I did a 45 minutes FTP test on Sunday, felt short again (I wanted a point of reference to track my progress). I feel that 90 minutes ride should be no problem.
Zwift is a lot of fun, the 3D environment is just as good as a real video to me and it's so nice to see "real" virtual people.

The Trainer has no piece of electronics at all (pure fluid roller). I stay on the small ring and get enough range there. I pushed over 600W during the FTP test and can roll easy at 60W for warm up, always in a cadence that is appropriate. I don't need more then that, and if I ever do, I'll just get on the big chainring. That's why I have picked this trainer, you control the resistance through the speed (cadence and gear).

I am probably missing something so be patient with me but I thought Zwift was supposed to be used with so called "smart" trainers to get that close to reality riding feeling (resistance increasing when riding "uphill", decreasing on "downhill" and "drafting" behind other riders. I can't see how your setup could deliver that.
Also, and I am not trying to get into a discussion of "mine is bigger, no way yours so big!", but FTP of 600W seems to be a bit excessive. If I'm not confused Jens Voigt used to have one of 450W. Now, that might have been a full one hour FTP (I am not sure what testing method did you use but most people don't subscribe to the full 60 mins. of torture so I will work with an assumption it was 20 mins.) but even if that was the case and Jens' 20 to 60 minutes FTP drop-off was as high as 50W (unlikely), it would put his 20 min FTP at 500W. In other words yours seems to be 20% better than the former hour record holder's. To me it looks like your testing method might be flawed in a way that would seriously skew your Zwift experience. And don't get me wrong. I don't use Zwift and don't care about any leaderboards there either. Of course it is well possible that those 600W was just a typo and I've wasted my coffee break here.

If SG can push a FTP of 600W he should not be here but on the SKY team - That would be better than Froome and properly close to a world record 

I think that SG mean that he can peak at 600 watts witch I also can but only for less than a minute. My FTP value is a tad past 200 watts and that, based on the BKOOL rating, places me in the highest level of amateurs. As long as your trainer software don't know what resistance you have on your trainer, the numbers you get will always be vague at its best. Speed, HR and cadence are not enough to calculate accurate power numbers if the calculator don't now the power curve of your trainer. I guess that the power curve of the trainer SG have, is known by SWIFT and therefore  able to calculate the power output. A smart trainer I would say is a tad more accurate but also a tad more expensive.

Here is a good article about FTP values between amateurs an PRO's: https://decaironman-training.com/2013/12/09/powerlevels-ftp-pros-vs-humans/comment-page-1/

Karsten

[SportingGoods]

That's funny 
Communication is difficult, and written communication is so difficult! So easy to misunderstand, sometimes I don't even understand what I meant to say when I read what I wrote

So, no my FTP is not 600W. What I meant to say is that, staying on the small chainring, I managed to push anywhere between 60W and 600W during an FTP test. 60 W being the warmup. 600W being the final sprint. My FTP, measured on Zwift is around 265W. It is probably lower then the real value. I could have pushed more. And my Strava numbers (not real measurements, but based on climb profile/speed/weight) tell me that I'm closer to 300W (but not there yet).
I'm not a pro but I'm not a newbie either. I've participated in the French National XC Marathon championship this year. Not the best for sure 

Anyway, as I mentioned, my setup is still very nice on Zwift. I get 3 sensors telling Zwift what I do (speed/cadence/HR). Then Zwift displays the power and my target power. And whatever the climb, 200W is 200W, only the speed changes. I change the resistance myself with my gear. The output power is just a combination of what I'm pushing (cadence) and the gear ratio. What you need to understand on that Fluid trainer is that the resistance increases with the speed of the rear wheel.
It's not as good as smart trainer but it's only 200€! And so far the experience is excellent to me. In the short time I've had this tool I've already sweated over 8 hours on it! It's all that matters.

[seahog32]

That's funny 
Communication is difficult, and written communication is so difficult!

Anyway, as I mentioned, my setup is still very nice on Zwift. I get 3 sensors telling Zwift what I do (speed/cadence/HR). Then Zwift displays the power and my target power. And whatever the climb, 200W is 200W, only the speed changes. I change the resistance myself with my gear. The output power is just a combination of what I'm pushing (cadence) and the gear ratio. What you need to understand on that Fluid trainer is that the resistance increases with the speed of the rear wheel.

Yeah, I had a feeling the 600W was just some sort of a miscommunication.

However, to the Zwift: You are right that 200W is always 200W and only the speed is changing. That gives you speed x on a flat road. When you start to climb at the end of the flat road, your speed drops to speed y, assuming you are still holding your 200W, and y<x. Obviously, you are on a trainer, the incline does not change and the resistance of the flywheel in your case does not change either. So if I understand it correctly this time, the Zwift's "brain" knows that you are climbing and drops your displayed speed appropriately to the incline of the virtual hill. Then, if you want to maintain your perceived speed in the virtual world constant when hitting the hill, you need to upshift to a harder gear and pedal harder to increase your power output. That is the difference comparing to the real world or a smart trainer where you just need to pedal harder without the upshift part! So in conclusion, with your settings if you are recording your training session both in Zwift and, let's say, with a Garmin head unit, at the end you will get too different readings regarding the ridden distance and the speed profile.

As I said, I am a little slow but hopefully I got it right this time. So proud of myself 

[SportingGoods]

You got it 100% correct 

But again, the key point with Zwift is that it makes indoor ride 10x more enjoyable. Time flies, really. And the 3D environment, with everything around (avatar of real people, change in weather, sounds, etc...) succeeds to cheat my brain enough that I react like in a real environment (slightly leaning when cornering, pushing a bit more when reaching the top of a climb, getting in the drops after the pass of the mountain...).

Getting back to the power reading, it's most likely inaccurate but I don't race in Zwift, so I don't care! But the relative power reading is extremely useful to someone who never had a power meter. It's really educating and shows the benefit of the real life power meter.

[SportingGoods]

Wow, it's oh so quiet (Bjork inside)! I guess it is because of Thanksgiving.

I get some content to share here, Home trainer related. Yesterday, I did an indoor ride (rain outside, was not feeling great, coughing, cold...). I still did a workout of my FTP builder plan, 1:23 minutes on the trainer, not bad. All that to say that after workout, I told myself:

"This feels very similar to an outdoor ride I've done recently. I feel just about the same after the ride!"

So I've crunched the numbers, for your delight 

	Indoor	Outdoor
Date	Nov. 24th	Nov. 17th
Distance	41.2 km	41.1 km
Time	1:23:04	1:25:33
Elevation	425 m	546 m
Avg Power	188 w	192 w
Avg HR	142 bpm	148 bpm
Avg Speed	29.8 km/h	28.9 km/h

I'm shocked by this incredible matching. The 2 rides are very similar except that the Outdoor ride showed a bit more elevation, that is reflected in every other parameter (time, power, HR, speed). And again, my body told me that these 2 efforts were similar.
So, this really shows that trainers provide reliable data (in term of power, distance, elevation, speed). It also shows that when it's not possible to ride outside you can really get the same workout indoor. And honestly, I feel bad to admit it, it can be almost as fun as riding outdoor...    I've enjoyed riding in London (I really do) or on this Watopia Island, I enjoyed riding in a group (I plan to repeat that), I'm connected to many riders from all around the world now (Asia, EU, USA) and we exchange during and after the ride. I will miss that social aspect after the winter, I will try to find groups to ride with.
Also, structured training is a lot easier on the trainer where the big screen in front of you tells you what to do. I haven't found a good way to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) training outdoor. Ideally I'd like to take some of my Zwift FTP-building plan to outdoor rides, but I haven't found a tool to tell me the sequence of the workout while on the bike (apart from a sticky note and a timer). Any advice is appreciated.

Enjoy the Holiday!

[carbonazza]

I haven't found a good way to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) training outdoor. Ideally I'd like to take some of my Zwift FTP-building plan to outdoor rides, but I haven't found a tool to tell me the sequence of the workout while on the bike (apart from a sticky note and a timer). Any advice is appreciated.

Easy HIIT is the only reason, I'm still considering and indoor toy( the weather stays in check for now, a second reason will probably come soon... ).

I'm trying(in a lazy way) to locate on the map around here a good track to do HIIT outdoor, a well sized climb followed by a come back loop to rest and repeat.
To do about 8-10 times.
I'm using strava to find the good spot based on my recorded times, but didn't find it yet...

A lot of cognitive effort just to see if HIIT improves me

[SportingGoods]

a second reason will probably come soon...

Now you told too much or too little! Are we talking about a baby?!

[carbonazza]

a second reason will probably come soon...

Now you told too much or too little! Are we talking about a baby?!
[/quote]

Thanks god no I have more than enough kids around already.
The weather may not stay as nice and dry as it is now, giving me a second reason to make the jump to indoor.

[karstenhorn]

I haven't found a good way to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) training outdoor. Ideally I'd like to take some of my Zwift FTP-building plan to outdoor rides, but I haven't found a tool to tell me the sequence of the workout while on the bike (apart from a sticky note and a timer). Any advice is appreciated.

You can set up HIIT based training in the Garmin Edge series(520, 820 and 1000) and the cycling computer will guide you through your phases including warm up and cool down.

https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge520/EN-US/GUID-51E58923-AD73-48A0-A72A-6EBC29910DB8.html

Karsten

[carbonazza]

You can set up HIIT based training in the Garmin Edge series(520, 820 and 1000) and the cycling computer will guide you through your phases including warm up and cool down.
https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge520/EN-US/GUID-51E58923-AD73-48A0-A72A-6EBC29910DB8.html

Karsten

Thanks Karsten.
If Garmin offers it, there must be an app for that too. I'll look for it.
I use my phone to navigate/record.

I'm afraid I'm just delaying HIIT as I'm not really a fan of programmed suffering
Suffering by attacking a surprising climb is ok, it doesn't last.
But here, knowing it will happen, and doing it multiple times, is another step.

[SportingGoods]

I think I'm getting closer to what I need to complete an effective winter prep.

The home trainer is definitely a key part of the equation. Zwift is the motivation side of the HT. Then, you need a plan, because w/o a plan you are ineffective. So I started a plan on Zwift. As long as the weather was poor it was OK, I would spend enough time on the trainer to get the plan done. Now, the week is going to be cold but very dry and sunny! No way I ride all time indoor.

But my plan!!

It's a pain, cause my plan is really just within Zwift. So, After 2 weeks warming up with Zwift's FTP plan I'm going to switch gears. I've just subscribed to CTS "60-minutes climb" plan. This is really my road goal, I plan on 60 minutes climbs (Chamrousse, Alpe d'Huez...). So, I plan to follow this program either indoor or outdoor. You basically receive instruction for the next day by email, every day. I've downloaded an interval timer on my iPhone (https://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/interval-timer-timing-for/id406473568?l=en&mt=8`), the free version.

I still plan to insert some normal rides if I have the opportunity, but I'll try to follow this plan.

FYI, CTS program comes free of charge to Strava Premium members. They offer a wide range of plans. For each plan you decide how long you will spend on the bike each week. I'll report on this plan, but I plan to get started after new year. I'll spend the last 4 weeks of 2016 exploring Zwift further (group rides, why not races), experimenting HIIT session on the road, why not on the MTB, and just riding!
I can provide some feedback on the Zwift FTP building plan. I could be wrong but I find the sessions a bit too relaxed to me. I wish I would push harder. I'm afraid I don't get all the benefit I could from the session because the intensity is a bit low.

[seahog32]

Also, structured training is a lot easier on the trainer where the big screen in front of you tells you what to do. I haven't found a good way to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) training outdoor. Ideally I'd like to take some of my Zwift FTP-building plan to outdoor rides, but I haven't found a tool to tell me the sequence of the workout while on the bike (apart from a sticky note and a timer). Any advice is appreciated.

Enjoy the Holiday!

Not sure about Zwift but you can get a mobile app from TrainerRoad (and possibly others) that you can use outdoors. Then you ONLY need a real powermeter, one that is Bluetooth capable so that it works with your phone (should not be a problem, most of them are dual BT/ANT+ these days AFAIK).