Trusted 150mm 29er suggestions

[Boybiskit]

My son is growing fast, so time to expand my positive Airwolf YFM-026 Chiner hardtail experience and build him a new bike!

He is nearly 15, 168cm tall and riding mostly on the North Shore in Vancouver, CA. For reference, he currently rides a 2007 Heckler with 150mm rear travel, 150mm fork and slacked geo (offset shock bushings).

I am finding I care more about his safety than my own: I was quite happy to go with anything for my own bike, but for my son I would hate him to hurt himself on a problem frame. He's also not as fastidious with maintenance as me! My research led me to Carlton Reid's interesting book (if you haven't read it: https://bikebiz.com/cream-competent-or-cowboy-which-factories-are-faking-it/) and putting suppliers into 'Cream, Component, Cowboy' categories.

I don't want a 'Cowboy' frame for my son. Component or Cream would be fine. I suspect this will mean dealing with a manufacturer directly rather than through AliExpress. Anyone's thoughts on who the Component manufacturers are - and how to contact them - appreciated.

The frame: we are looking for a ~150mm travel 29er. I do not want flex stays. Would prefer a simple 4 bar / Horst design to anything funky. I have a pathological hatred for anything with bearings in the line of fire from the back wheel. Modern-ish geo, so <67 head angle and >73 seat angle. Although I am posting this in the carbon forum, we would be happy with alloy if you know of options.

Your suggestions and personal experiences (always love pics!) appreciated.

[FullCarbonAlchemist]

100% absolutely the Carbonda FM1002. Best option out there right now IMHO and I’ve been very happy with mine.

One pro tip though: don’t buy the headset from Carbonda. Get an FSA No.55R instead.
The OEM headset started rusting internally and developed play after just a few (admittedly hard) rides.

I run it with a 170 fork and would recommend at least a 160.

We’ll see how it holds up over a full season of big mountain enduro rides, but so far it’s the best bike I’ve ever owned. I went into it with low expectations and have been consistently impressed.

[FullCarbonAlchemist]

Here are a couple of pics in its current state:

[lilbigmacky]

I've seen people run 150mm forks on the FM1001 as well so that is also an option depending on what you want to do with the bike.

[Boybiskit]

Excellent start - thanks both!

I have enquired but don't have pricing back on the 1001 and 1002. Is there a price difference? I think we'll end up with a 160 fork just because they are more common than 170 (and my son seems happy to go 160 front / 150 tear like I have on my Genius).

@FullCarbonAlchemist: Did you buy yours direct through the Carbonda website? and... are those Wolfpack tires!? It's the first time i've seen any on a bike! Disappointing to hear about the headset. The one I got with my Airwolf was really cheap and has been excellent.

[veeTee1Pah]

The most modern candidates seem to have some concessions compared to mainstream-branded frames. Do these issues give anyone else reservations?

FM1002 Quirks.

• The bottom bracket drop is 20mm if I'm reading the geo chart correctlty. This is pretty high for a 29er. Maybe appropriate for a mullet?
• FM1002 kinematics are not progressive. Leverage curve is pretty flat (<10% progression) with a regressive section at bottom out. It seems like most mainstream brands have moved to a smoother, more progressive leverage curve.

AM831 Quirks.
Another recent frame that seemed promising, but has been plagued by design problems.

• The fork hit the frame in some sizes, so a spacer was needed under the fork.
• The first generation rear triangle was badly designed. If flexed badly, and bearing retention was an issue.
• A new rear triangle was released for the AM831 that may have solved problems with the v1 design, but more feedback from actual owners is needed to verify

I, too, would consider an aluminum frame, but it seems modern geometry aluminum frames just aren't lucrative enough to offer to the public. Carbon frames are the default mountain bike frames available. I've also seen a video about a bad injury sustained when a Chinese frame snapped under a rider. I guess the reputation of a frame matters.

[Boybiskit]

The most modern candidates seem to have some concessions compared to mainstream-branded frames. Do these issues give anyone else reservations?

FM1002 Quirks.

• The bottom bracket drop is 20m if I'm reading the geo chart correctlty. This is pretty high for a 29er. Maybe appropriate for a mullet?
• FM1002 kinematics are not progressive. Leverage curve is pretty flat (<10% progression) with a regressive section at bottom out. It seems like most mainstream brands have moved to a smoother, more progressive leverage curve.

AM831 Quirks.
Another recent frame that seemed promising, but has been plagued by design problems.

• The fork hit the frame in some sizes, so a spacer was needed under the fork.
• The first generation rear triangle was badly designed. If flexed badly, and bearing retention was an issue.
• A new rear triangle was released for the AM831 that may have solved problems with the v1 design, but more feedback from actual owners is needed to verify

I, too, would consider an aluminum frame, but it seems modern geometry aluminum frames just aren't lucrative enough to offer to the public. Carbon frames are the default mountain bike frames available. I've also seen a video about a bad injury sustained when a Chinese frame snapped under a rider. I guess the reputation of a frame matters.

With some careful research, you can figure out who the reputable manufacturers are that are often also making frames for others. In the case of Carbonda and the 1001/1002 this includes KHS, Sherpa and NS Bikes. My son and I have a spreadsheet running. So far, without diving into the geo detail, we are down to Dengfu, Ican, Carbonda / Flybike and TanTan / Seraph. More research is required so any knowledge of trusted manufacturers over resellers from here is greatly appreciated.

[Jotegr]

The most trusted is probably the one that Evolve uses at this point, no? FM-1002/AM831 are both too new IMO to truly tell.

[lilbigmacky]

The ican p9 frame was a go-to reliable 150mm frame and many stateside "brands" slapped their name on it and sold it, but the geometry has become dated. The fm1002 is slacker and has a steeper seat tube, and it doesn't have a ridiculously long seat tube that limits dropper length like the p9. Check the FM1001/1002 threads, there have been very little issues with the frames other than bad cable grommets and low quality factory headset and bottom brackets. Its a simple frame design so you dont get the benefits of vpp or other fancy suspension designs but you also dont have to worry about a lack of stiffness, your rear triangle breaking, and a shady seller trying to sell you parts to fix your frame that they knew was poorly designed.

[FullCarbonAlchemist]

Excellent start - thanks both!

I have enquired but don't have pricing back on the 1001 and 1002. Is there a price difference? I think we'll end up with a 160 fork just because they are more common than 170 (and my son seems happy to go 160 front / 150 tear like I have on my Genius).

@FullCarbonAlchemist: Did you buy yours direct through the Carbonda website? and... are those Wolfpack tires!? It's the first time i've seen any on a bike! Disappointing to hear about the headset. The one I got with my Airwolf was really cheap and has been excellent.

I believe the 1001 is in the $700 range and the 1002 about $900.

Yes, those are Wolfpack Enduro 2.6s! Definitely not the fastest rolling tread pattern or toughest casing but surprisingly good for ~$55. They handle really well in aggressive riding and are relatively light.

I decided to try them out with this build to help keep the initial cost down and because I’d heard good things…performance so far is very close to the $90 tires I’m used to, and definitely lighter. If the 2.6 version of their Trail tire (mentioned in a few review articles) was available I’d probably be running those for the rest of the season but alas in a few weeks I’ll probably have to put some lower-profile tread Schwalbe or Maxxis on to cut back the rolling resistance.

The Enduro is kind of halfway between a Hans Dampf and a Magic Mary in terms of rolling resistance so somewhat overkill for most trails once mud season is over.

[FullCarbonAlchemist]

FM1002 Quirks.

• The bottom bracket drop is 20m if I'm reading the geo chart correctlty. This is pretty high for a 29er. Maybe appropriate for a mullet?
• FM1002 kinematics are not progressive. Leverage curve is pretty flat (<10% progression) with a regressive section at bottom out. It seems like most mainstream brands have moved to a smoother, more progressive leverage curve.

On point 1, I honestly like this about the 1002. My other bike is kind of stupid-low and I’ve been trying for years to get it higher off the ground (longer forks, 27.5x2.8 tires) without totally compromising the handling. The next (and probably final) thing I’m going to try is making it MX with a 29in front end and only 10mm less travel than the full 27.5 setup.

I don’t find the 1002 problematically high at all, but pedal strikes haven’t been much of an issue which is refreshing.

As to point 2: my experience with a DVO Topaz (a fairly linear air shock) has been that this isn’t much of an issue either. We’ll see how things are when it’s mid season and I’m trying to land the biggest jumps of my 30 year riding life…but so far I’ve launched a few pretty decent ones and come nowhere near bottoming out. No weird feeling on landing from hitting that regressive dip in the last 20mm of wheel travel, because I haven’t reached far enough into it yet.

I’ve actually considered removing one of the two positive chamber volume spacers I installed, to see if I can get into that part of the travel. I’d say with two spacers, you’re pretty safe from any noticeable symptoms of the regressive dip unless you send *HARD* to flat.

[Jotegr]

We're slightly derailing, but progressive-regressive curves were extremely common when designers were exclusively designing bikes for use with air shocks. As the shock ramps up, the curve turns regressive to keep it smooth til the last bottom out. Now that modern shocks like the Super Deluxe have excellent final-stroke bottom out protection, I'm kind of surprised we don't see more progressive-regressive curves, except that a portion of the riding population love to have the ability to slap coil shocks on their trail bikes. It's a "quirk" sure, but if you're running a modern mid to high end air shock, you can almost ignore it. Perhaps even a feature? You can easily tune around it and I can't see it being an issue except for those wishing to run a coil.

[Boybiskit]

Well all my questions are in with Wing  at Carbonda and with Ican. When I get responses I'll make a call although current preference is for Carbonda.

It's funny you talk about progressivity, because this relates to my next question - shock tune recommendations for both the P9 and the FM1002. Any real-world experiences? Shock will likely be an OEM take-off Fox DPS because there are plenty for sale, they're good value and they work!

[escyb]

I believe the 1001 is in the $700 range and the 1002 about $900.

Yes, those are Wolfpack Enduro 2.6s! Definitely not the fastest rolling tread pattern or toughest casing but surprisingly good for ~$55. They handle really well in aggressive riding and are relatively light.

I decided to try them out with this build to help keep the initial cost down and because I’d heard good things…performance so far is very close to the $90 tires I’m used to, and definitely lighter. If the 2.6 version of their Trail tire (mentioned in a few review articles) was available I’d probably be running those for the rest of the season but alas in a few weeks I’ll probably have to put some lower-profile tread Schwalbe or Maxxis on to cut back the rolling resistance.

The Enduro is kind of halfway between a Hans Dampf and a Magic Mary in terms of rolling resistance so somewhat overkill for most trails once mud season is over.

Thanks for your review on these tires! I m looking to give them a try too. Probably an Enduro for my front n Trail for my rear. Just a little more work to get them as I m in Singapore. 

[Boybiskit]

FM1002 ordered!

Wing has been really helpful (as were Ican), and this forum proving to be a great resource again. Thanks all!

Now, as I gather parts for the build I have 2 suspension questions on the 1002:

- Fork offset. What are people running? What would you all recommend?
- shock hardware. The frame ships with hardware for trunnion but Wing also recommended eyelet bearings, as used by Rocky Mountain. In an ideal world I would run a regular eyelet shock with adapters. What are others running? Recommendations?
- bonus question on rear shock! Is the recommended 55mm stroke the max? Has anyone tried 60mm stroke?