Tavelo Aero Frame

[PLA]

In the comment section of both YT clips

I can't find either of Tavelo's replies you speak of sir

[Nomuetze]

Sorry for you Sir….
But hey….here to help, hope I do not infringe copyright:

Tavelo Official Response to Peak Torque  Concerns

Peak Torque Concerns

I have some more issues about the engineering:
1.   The bb shell is slightly undersized (40.87 to 40.92) but i will confirm a more accurate measurement
2.   The fork expander is very tight in the fork (even when loosened bolt)
3.   The black steerer shim does not fit in the gap. Too tight
4.   The seat post wedge clamp edges arrived damaged and are very sharp. They have damaged the seat-post. I always mention in videos that sharp corners that clamp on carbon need to be smoothed and chamfered on the engineering drawings.
5.   The one-piece headset top cap has too much friction and is difficult to preload. A separate bolt and cap would be better in my opinion.

[Nomuetze]

Tavelo’s  Response:

We would like to extend our gratitude to Alex for his time and thorough review of our Tavelo AROW frame set. Although the initial impressions of his two early production framesets were not entirely satisfactory, we have since addressed several of the issues he highlighted. Additionally, we are incorporating many of the constructive suggestions he mentioned in his video for further improvements. We take Alex’s feedback seriously and are committed to refining our product based on his valuable insights.

1. The production of Peak Torque’s frames was expedited to ensure the quickest delivery. However, this haste led to a lapse in quality control, particularly in the bottom bracket (BB) area. Improperly fitted BB covers allowed leakage of the transparent curing putty, which, once hardened, behaves like epoxy resin. (This putty is applied after sanding off the mold release agent and serves as a paint primer.)

The leakage compromised the BB area, leading to potential issues with tolerances and shape. To address this, we now use properly sized rubber sleeve covers for the BB area, preventing contamination of the BB surfaces. Our updated mass production process includes a 100% inspection of all installation surfaces to ensure they meet the required tolerances.

Additionally, regarding our supplied Bottom Brackets - we have worked with our BB supplier to implement rigorous tolerance and quality control procedures, preventing future complications with their products.

2. This issue arises from the O-ring on the expander, which necessitates high design accuracy. We aim to maintain a precise fit; however, if the installation is performed according to the provided instructions, the process should remain straightforward without complications. To enhance aerodynamic performance and achieve a sleeker head tube profile, we opted for a D-shaped steer tube. This decision necessitated the design of a custom D-shaped expander plug. The expander requires a specialized installation process, which we will detail in a comprehensive "User Instruction Manual" to facilitate proper installation and disassembly.

3. We were not anticipating any tolerance issues with the CNC steer shim from our supplier. Unfortunately, as Alex discovered, the shim was oversized. We have since addressed this by implementing a rigorous testing process to ensure each shim fits correctly.

4. As Alex noted, the seat post wedge was damaged during shipment, resulting in sharp edges on the wedge,the damage of BB plastic shell was also damaged during shipment.We have since enhanced our packaging to better protect all components during transit, ensuring they arrive in perfect condition and preventing similar issues in the future.

5. Future frame-sets will be shipped with two-piece headset cap & bolt, as well as the one-piece unit.Using one-piece headset cap requires adding grease according to "User Instruction Manual"

[PLA]

Easy for them to hide behind the usual stuff they say, it's "oh we wanted to get the frame to you ASAP!" and "all the issues are fixed and our product is perfect now!".

Yep! There it is. Their response is exactly as I called it 2 pages ago. Same old bullshit.

..

And, seat post wedge damaged in shipping? hmm, not sure I buy that to be honest.

[Takiyaki]

yeahhhh nah chris couldn't build a bike if his life depended on it. i'm sure he has had bikes built for him, but he's definitely never built one lol

OK, had a lot of bikes built. Point is they have a lot of user experience with bikes, which I think is relevant to a wider audience. Most cyclists are not building their bikes piece by piece, and most definitely aren't checking BB hole tolerances etc.

The good news is these guys actually explain their rationale for their criticism. The BB issue has been explained ad-nauseam by PT, Hamboner, and even the BBright dude. It's not hard to understand: if the hole is too small or egg shaped, the bearing is not going to roll right and will eventually destroy itself. Hambini in particular has pretty much put up tutorials that explain how to figure out the tolerances you need. PT is right, most punters who buy Chinese frames aren't going to be able to properly correct a bad BB.

I mean, how valid is that hypothesis. DTC Chinese frames have been out for a while now- by show of hands who here has had a BB destroy itself from an out of round BB mount? The worst I've heard is of BBs incessantly creaking. If this was a legit issue, we would have seen it in the real world, which gets at another thing with engineers- a lot of us get so attached to theoretical minutae that we lose sight of what issues are actually relevant in practice rather than theory.

Not to mention, with Hambini in particular, there is a material interest in pushing the narrative of BB failure- for the low low price of $300+, Hambini can sell you bottom bracket salvation. What a nice guy.

I'll admit both PT and Hambini are kind of insufferable "well ackchuhlly" types who often overanalyze to the point of venturing into "wanketeering" themselves. My favorite instances are Hambini claiming that the Ribble water-bottle-shielding downtube was dumb because "you can just run aero bottles", and similarly PT's "analysis" of Paris Roubaix bikes, claiming that everyone should be on full-aero full-suspension Cannondale Topstones, when the Dogma FS and K8 already exist--and have proven the gain is just marginal if nonexistent. 

I mean another key tenet of being a good engineer is knowing your area of expertise. I'm a mechanical engineer who specializes in HVAC. I can't go get a license as an electric engineer in transmission power. But with the magic cocktail of pedigree, technical dazzling, and condescension, they can feign that expertise and get no pushback. It's not a bad gig at all.

On the other hand, PT and Hambini have ample examples of "I told you so" moments: PT's criticism of open spoke holes (not exactly a cutting-edge call since this was already an issue 15 years ago), PT's catch with the CRW front hubs, Hambini's criticism of Shimano cranksets, etc.

Really, the way to receive these guys is to forget they're engineers, listen to their analysis, understand it, and decide for yourself if you agree.

I think the way people enjoy listening to these guys is as authorities to feed them thoughts and opinions, and to tell them who to hate. Their biggest fans are doing no such critical analysis, they don't want to. You see that in some of the impassioned defenses in this thread. It's more about finding enemies to go after, be it Big Bike or other Youtubers who dare to respond to being called out lol. The whole thing is kind of a joke honestly.

[dsveddy]

I mean, how valid is that hypothesis. DTC Chinese frames have been out for a while now- by show of hands who here has had a BB destroy itself from an out of round BB mount?

Me! I bought a Lightcarbon frame with an out-of-round and undersized bottom bracket, with an epoxy run across one of the cups. Funnily enough, the same frame model Hambini bought and waxed poetic over.

Couldn't get a BB in at all. Had to sand it a bit to get it in. Then had the issue where one of the cups deformed the BB bearing, making it VERY hard to install my crankset, and it seized after a season of CX racing. Pretty much banking on the fact that any BB I throw in there will creak and eventually go kaput, unless I get a one-piece. Hambini has a similar example of an undersized Cannondale BB. It happens.

[patliean1]

I think the way people enjoy listening to these guys is as authorities to feed them thoughts and opinions, and to tell them who to hate. Their biggest fans are doing no such critical analysis, they don't want to. You see that in some of the impassioned defenses in this thread. It's more about finding enemies to go after, be it Big Bike or other Youtubers who dare to respond to being called out lol. The whole thing is kind of a joke honestly.

Your point really is highlights the parallel I made earlier about the online red pill community and subsequent incel culture. What starts as fair and objective criticism eventually morphs into hatred and negative confirmation bias. Character attacks and racial undertones. But drama/grifting generates views and ad revenue so I understand. I speak to most of these folks offline, so my opinion will be waste of time.

What nags me the most is just how badly Tavelo messed up their Arow rollout to the public. Almost a year ago when I purchased my Attack frameset, I had a few minor issues that Tavelo wasn't exactly empathetic or reactive over. So to see worse QC woes a year later and having it take a large YouTube channel to finally get noticed, is very troublesome for the consumer. Even just the divisiveness online is ultimately terrible optics for Tavelo.

My Attack bike is lovely out on the road. I expect to the Arow to be the same or better once built. It's just extremely difficult to win the customer back once the reputation is tarnished. This reminds of Yoeleo a couple of years ago with their horrendous 9 month fulfillment delays.

[Sakizashi]

I mean, how valid is that hypothesis. DTC Chinese frames have been out for a while now- by show of hands who here has had a BB destroy itself from an out of round BB mount? The worst I've heard is of BBs incessantly creaking. If this was a legit issue, we would have seen it in the real world, which gets at another thing with engineers- a lot of us get so attached to theoretical minutae that we lose sight of what issues are actually relevant in practice rather than theory.

Not to mention, with Hambini in particular, there is a material interest in pushing the narrative of BB failure- for the low low price of $300+, Hambini can sell you bottom bracket salvation. What a nice guy.

I think it’s important to note that conflict of interest. However, most people dont have a bore gauge, to be able to check out of round BBs, so it comes down to people thinking the BB has issues.

That said, I have Guerciotti (it’s a flybike catalogue bike) that was killing BBs on a yearly basis due to the left and right hand side being out of alignment. You couldnt get the spindles in and out without a mallet. Replacing the bearings with solid oil bearings stopped the wear issues and while it doesnt spin freely it wasn’t bad enough to go to a one piece solution. After 30k+ miles those bearings are still good, but the bike is really flexy in the BB area. Not sure if there is another cause, but its being retired and will not be re-sold.

After watching the video, Tavelo looks like a train wreck looking at it from the outside. They simply either cut corners or missed a lot of details on the design that they should have caught. This is on the product team as these issues sure don't sound like production variance or bad QA. They literally were doing the wrong thing with bad design in multiple areas. I can’t believe I agree with PT, but bike reviewers shouldn’t be doing design reviews for frames.

[Takiyaki]

Your point really is highlights the parallel I made earlier about the online red pill community and subsequent incel culture. What starts as fair and objective criticism eventually morphs into hatred and negative confirmation bias. Character attacks and racial undertones. But drama/grifting generates views and ad revenue so I understand. I speak to most of these folks offline, so my opinion will be waste of time.

What nags me the most is just how badly Tavelo messed up their Arow rollout to the public. Almost a year ago when I purchased my Attack frameset, I had a few minor issues that Tavelo wasn't exactly empathetic or reactive over. So to see worse QC woes a year later and having it take a large YouTube channel to finally get noticed, is very troublesome for the consumer. Even just the divisiveness online is ultimately terrible optics for Tavelo.

My Attack bike is lovely out on the road. I expect to the Arow to be the same or better once built. It's just extremely difficult to win the customer back once the reputation is tarnished. This reminds of Yoeleo a couple of years ago with their horrendous 9 month fulfillment delays.

Not to give Tavelo a pass, I really have no dog in this fight... but they're hardly alone in botched launches. Even Western brands get it wrong sometimes, and without much recourse. Like with your Giant purchase (cant remember the details). Even with a bike store purchase it can still be bad.

I think it’s important to note that conflict of interest. However, most people dont have a bore gauge, to be able to check out of round BBs, so it comes down to people thinking the BB has issues.

That said, I have Guerciotti (it’s a flybike catalogue bike) that was killing BBs on a yearly basis due to the left and right hand side being out of alignment. You couldnt get the spindles in and out without a mallet. Replacing the bearings with solid oil bearings stopped the wear issues and while it doesnt spin freely it wasn’t bad enough to go to a one piece solution. After 30k+ miles those bearings are still good, but the bike is really flexy in the BB area. Not sure if there is another cause, but its being retired and will not be re-sold.

After watching the video, Tavelo looks like a train wreck looking at it from the outside. They simply either cut corners or missed a lot of details on the design that they should have caught. This is on the product team as these issues sure don't sound like production variance or bad QA. They literally were doing the wrong thing with bad design in multiple areas. I can’t believe I agree with PT, but bike reviewers shouldn’t be doing design reviews for frames.

I honestly feel like some of these quality issues just come with the territory. Though honestly it's dumb that we've got away from threaded BBs.

I listened to more of the Nero Show on my school pick up run and had e more very basic thoughts. One, the idea that someone responding to being called a shill and a liar makes them a Karen is hilarity. Some of yall are absolutely shameless. Two this is a $1500 frameset, not a $2000 frameset like PT kept saying. Still pricey enough to not have all these issues, but meaningfully cheaper than an equivalent Western brand. Three IIRC PT specifically said he ordered this anonymously, and it's supposedly the first copy in his size. Again not making excuses; they should have made some runs in every size to catch issues. But serial #00001 is prob gonna have issues.

Id be curious to see how other $1500 framesets compare. Maybe the extra $ western brands charge helps avoid these kinds of problems. I don't think this will be the end of Tavelo though, they have a huge domestic market.

[erallen30]

Not to give Tavelo a pass, I really have no dog in this fight... but they're hardly alone in botched launches. Even Western brands get it wrong sometimes, and without much recourse. Like with your Giant purchase (cant remember the details). Even with a bike store purchase it can still be bad.
I honestly feel like some of these quality issues just come with the territory. Though honestly it's dumb that we've got away from threaded BBs.

I listened to more of the Nero Show on my school pick up run and had e more very basic thoughts. One, the idea that someone responding to being called a shill and a liar makes them a Karen is hilarity. Some of yall are absolutely shameless. Two this is a $1500 frameset, not a $2000 frameset like PT kept saying. Still pricey enough to not have all these issues, but meaningfully cheaper than an equivalent Western brand. Three IIRC PT specifically said he ordered this anonymously, and it's supposedly the first copy in his size. Again not making excuses; they should have made some runs in every size to catch issues. But serial #00001 is prob gonna have issues.

Id be curious to see how other $1500 framesets compare. Maybe the extra $ western brands charge helps avoid these kinds of problems. I don't think this will be the end of Tavelo though, they have a huge domestic market.

It is $1880, not $1500.

[PLA]

That's about $3000AUD once converted using a credit card or PayPal exchange rate.

My Cervelo Soloist frame cost the same! (rrp is $3700, but most dealers sell below rrp if you have the decency to talk to them for 5min).

I know which I'd pick...

[repoman]

Not to give Tavelo a pass, I really have no dog in this fight... but they're hardly alone in botched launches. Even Western brands get it wrong sometimes, and without much recourse. Like with your Giant purchase (cant remember the details). Even with a bike store purchase it can still be bad.
I honestly feel like some of these quality issues just come with the territory. Though honestly it's dumb that we've got away from threaded BBs.

I listened to more of the Nero Show on my school pick up run and had e more very basic thoughts. One, the idea that someone responding to being called a shill and a liar makes them a Karen is hilarity. Some of yall are absolutely shameless. Two this is a $1500 frameset, not a $2000 frameset like PT kept saying. Still pricey enough to not have all these issues, but meaningfully cheaper than an equivalent Western brand. Three IIRC PT specifically said he ordered this anonymously, and it's supposedly the first copy in his size. Again not making excuses; they should have made some runs in every size to catch issues. But serial #00001 is prob gonna have issues.

Id be curious to see how other $1500 framesets compare. Maybe the extra $ western brands charge helps avoid these kinds of problems. I don't think this will be the end of Tavelo though, they have a huge domestic market.

That does nothing excuse the issues or make them less significant. If it was a 500 dollar frame, then yeah maybe you could mention that, but $1500 puts it in a different league open to much more intense scrutiny.  And you can't buy the frame for 1500, so it's more like a 1880 frame they are throwing the bars in for free.   

[Takiyaki]

It is $1880, not $1500.

With a $300 handlebar. In any case, not the 2K PT claimed and people believed

[Bigbobby1482]

With a $300 handlebar. In any case, not the 2K PT claimed and people believed

PT says that you can't run this frame without that proprietary bar, due to top bearing cover only fits that bar shape. So It's still 1880$ no way around that...

[Serge_K]

Video of my crankset spinning in a 10 eur BB in my sub 500$ LTK268 frame. And it's actually spinning funny because of the one sided vector pedal is much heavier than the drive side pedal.

So we have PT with 2 Arow frames with BB holes that can't take a "normal" BB. And Jesse the same. And the miami bike shop guy the same. I shouldn't have to use a ghetto plastic sleeve BB because nothing else will fit in the hole of my 1880$ frameset. I would accept that on a trifox, maybe (i actually wouldnt because that's such a red flag, but presumably many people would).
Would I pay top dollar for that? Would I trust these people to make proprietary parts? Well, no.

Most bikes, even shit, dont break. But as far as i'm concerned, the raison d'etre of this forum is to find the good factories and weed out the bad ones. and tavelo, at this moment, doesnt appear to be a good factory.

The Jesse-Karen monster, the PT-is-a-dick, the oh yeah but people are racist incels, it's noise. The signal i hear is: dont buy Tavelo, especially at this price point.