Seraph Bikes Superlight 836g X68 - Alternative to SL8 Fakes?

[glepore]

Ordered one today, Wheeltop with the standard 50mm carbon wheels. $2500 delivered to USA. Not expecting this to be s works level, but in a 49 hope it rides roughly lie a pro/expert level sl8. We'll see.

[WWcyclist]

Ordered one today, Wheeltop with the standard 50mm carbon wheels. $2500 delivered to USA. Not expecting this to be s works level, but in a 49 hope it rides roughly lie a pro/expert level sl8. We'll see.

Interesting that the WT build is more expensive than the 105 build. Crossing my fingers for you, it looks like a great option!

[A.V.G]

... Carbon frames aren't spaceships.

And definitely not submarines. 

Sorry couldn't resist.  No offense intended.

[dovh]

Hello guys, i'm about to order this frame but im a bit confused by this thread with regards to other brand frames mentioned. Is this supposed to be better than those other frames mentioned or its the same? I saw some comments here that people think its the same but then there are some differences mentioned like the bearings and so on. I've seen quite a lot of good stuff about tantant but im not sure if this is really from them and im hesitant because of that a bit.

[WWcyclist]

Hello guys, i'm about to order this frame but im a bit confused by this thread with regards to other brand frames mentioned. Is this supposed to be better than those other frames mentioned or its the same? I saw some comments here that people think its the same but then there are some differences mentioned like the bearings and so on. I've seen quite a lot of good stuff about tantant but im not sure if this is really from them and im hesitant because of that a bit.

It's a different frame, there are lots of similarities though since they are copying the same original design. That other gentleman just posted thinking this was an SL8 fake thread

[glepore]

Has this test been done with anonymized frames? I rode a friend's bike today that i built for him. It's basically my exact spec, but with a different frame. The fit and coordinates are a bit different, so i'm more comfortable on my bike because it fits me better, but i really dont think i can tell them apart while riding.
There's so much vested interest in maintaining the mystique around high end frames, i really feel that it's largely BS. Carbon frames aren't spaceships.

I'm unaware of anyone thats ridden a real sl8 back to back with a "clone", let alone blind. I don't doubt that there are layup differences between the two, whether they make a difference who knows. There is a fair amount of research that the big brands do on various layups etc., how much of that is an actual factor in real world ridefeel is another matter entirely.

As far as the pricing comments go, its somewhat opaque as mine increased by a couple hundred bucks between initial quote and final quote due to "an error" whatever that means, and i didn't ask for an item by item breakdown. My build was actually around the same price as the 105 build in this thread, but that build had lighter wheels, so i don't really know. I was a little disappointed that tantan couldn't source a Magene pm to swap out for their crank, even if I had to pay full price for the Magene. No powermeter options apparently...didn't ask about shimano's as theirs have such a terrible reputation.

[patliean1]

The assumption to justify part of Specialized's SL8 pricing is that the higher grade carbon they use is stronger, stiffer, while also being lighter than something like T800. And there's consideration to the carbon layout to provide a responsive yet agreeable riding experience.

I would be satisfied with this X68 if at the very least it wasn't a noodle overall to ride. I'm just not sure how TanTan would achieve a decent level of stiffness at the advertised weight and price point. The frame weight similar to the real SL8 Pro.

If TanTan can come even 70% close to the SL8 in terms of riding dynamics (stiff head tube, compliant seat stays and BB, fantastic crosswind stability) then it's probably a solid value. On paper.

[glepore]

Yes, exactly. I’d actually be happier if it wasn’t overly stiff in a 49. I think one area where the dollars get spent is in different layups for different sizes. I m 60 kg and 5 5 so my concern is probably the opposite of yours and both are valid. But I wasn’t buying a 6k bike anytime soon anyway.

[dovh]

Soo you wouldn't suggest getting this frame for a heavier rider, i asked tantan on instagram and they respondend that the weight limit is 130kg but i assume thats a default answer for everything I'm personally at 98-100kg range so could it be a `noodle` as patliean1 decsribes it?

[WWcyclist]

Soo you wouldn't suggest getting this frame for a heavier rider, i asked tantan on instagram and they respondend that the weight limit is 130kg but i assume thats a default answer for everything I'm personally at 98-100kg range so could it be a `noodle` as patliean1 decsribes it?

I don't think anyone here can answer that question for you since most are lighter and patliean1's comment is supposition.

If Tantan told you that then you should be fine,  I don't think they would just make up a number. If you are concerned you should tell them your weight and ask if it will flex a lot or remain stiff.

My boss is 275lbs and rides a carbon (orbea) frame with no issues

[glepore]

No,  agree its not just the materials. Its also in the additional handling and complication of a more detailed layup. More pieces or different fiber and orientation. And also a premium markup. How much to attribute to each factor is highly secretive for obvious reasons.

[patliean1]

I definitely need to do a deep dive research on carbon fiber and educate myself better...

https://www.instagram.com/p/DBkmr8loXYn/?img_index=1

TanTan shows a size 52 matte black weighing 836g. My Tarmac L8 Pro in a size 56 weighs 827g. Now let's say a size 56 TanTan x68 comes in at 900g for comparison sake. How are they able to produce a comparable weight with less fragile (ie: stronger) carbon? And at a $600 price point? Is the difference between a $600 frame versus $3500 all in the marketing, engineering, tooling, staff, and frame size-specific layup?

ICAN's FL1 frame (Aethos lookalike) comes in at 783g unpainted in a size 54. No aero design details so less carbon needed, but obviously the Chinese brands are capable of making lightweight frames. My Winspace SLC3 weighs 829g. I'm just curious why we don't see more of these brands offering deep sub-1000g frames. Most of them seem to fall between 1050g to 1200g.

In the past I've said my theory as to why Chinese frames are heavier is because it's a built-in insurance policy by making the frames, in theory, more robust. But why would they need to do this if an 836g frame is strong enough without cutting corners?

Obviously I like what TanTan is doing by offering such a wide variety of frames across different disciplines. So I'm not trying to scare anyone away from this particular frame. I really want one myself. My curiosity lies in TanTan's ability to offer this frame at such stellar specs and price as a reputable factory. With minimal compromise.

[jonathanf2]

My SPcycle R088 in size 52cm comes in at less weight at 760g with no metal hardware and about 790g with UDH and FD hanger. Only difference between the R088 and TT-X68 is the lack of the beefier aero-sniffer head tube and they actually added an FD hole for mechanical cabling. SPcycle looks like they opted for their own off-the-shelf fork to accommodate 32c tires. With my climbing wheelset, I've gotten my R088 build down to 6.87kg (cheap 45mm depth aero wheels 7.2kg) and that's without going full weight weenie. I still have lots areas to cut weight on my build and I'm basically running cheap parts (ER9 groupset, Riro crankset, Magene PM, Xpedo pedals). Bike rides fine and I'm packing a ton of holiday winter weight. Plus my riding includes mostly urban climbing, sh**ty roads, yelling at cars, hopping on sidewalks and pot hole ridden descents.

[glepore]

I

ICAN's FL1 frame (Aethos lookalike) comes in at 783g unpainted in a size 54. No aero design details so less carbon needed, but obviously the Chinese brands are capable of making lightweight frames. My Winspace SLC3 weighs 829g. I'm just curious why we don't see more of these brands offering deep sub-1000g frames. Most of them seem to fall between 1050g to 1200g.

In the past I've said my theory as to why Chinese frames are heavier is because it's a built-in insurance policy by making the frames, in theory, more robust. But why would they need to do this if an 836g frame is strong enough without cutting corners?

Manufacturing technique, largely. One of the benefits of EPS is that its precision results in both a better finish with greater compaction, but also it follows that the precision allows for the end product to have less need for a "safety factor" through overbuilding. The minor weight differences between an actual SL8 and the bikes under discussion are likely down to minor details and even the resin used, along with the fact that all weights are quoted as +/- (tantan says +/- 40g for both frame and fork, so up to 80g variance).

[nis240sxt]

Should it be a surprise that these manufacturers are able to offer these replica frames at such a low price? We do know that the industry in Xiamen is tight knit. People move from factory to factory so intellectual property can leak, people can be bribed, etc.. If they have the cad files and layup schedule of a particular frameset, I don't think it would be that difficult to offer such as you see now. All that upcharge the big brands levy is to recoup all the sunk costs into research, design and marketing. Those that offer these framesets incur hardly much of that.

I have one of these replicas (not seraph) and I couldn't believe how good they are. I'm 190lbs and have beat the sh*t out of it with zero issues. It's currently cold as heck here but as soon as it warms up, me and my buddy with a real S-works both size 52 will do a test ride. Unfortunately, parts are not identical but I wouldn't be surprised if the ride is very similar.