Seraph Bikes Superlight 836g X68 - Alternative to SL8 Fakes?

[kubackje]

Guys get a room.

this is a subforum about bike builds, components etc. not law, morale and all that's shit. You wanna discuss this, then go somewhere else. I'm tired of reading your essays.

[glepore]

Guys get a room.

this is a subforum about bike builds, components etc. not law, morale and all that's shit. You wanna discuss this, then go somewhere else. I'm tired of reading your essays.

The little tab on the left allows you to scroll past. 

[Sander2177]

Lol, I appreciate the thread topic — it’s always interesting to see discussions like this. The whole “how are they managing to sell this frame so openly” angle is intriguing, but as with most of what we talk about, it’s largely speculation.

If there were genuine trademark or patent issues, I’d imagine the sale would have been shut down by now — but it hasn’t been. That’s probably a topic for a separate thread, and I agree it’s worth exploring.

There are clearly a lot of lurkers following this thread, and I get the messages — especially the comparisons to the SL8 — and I think some people are expecting a straight-up “yes, it’s as good as the SL8.”

But let’s be real: this isn’t an SL8, and it never will be. That said, is it a very good frame? Yes. It’s light, stiff, comfortable, and does what it needs to do.

For all the issues a few people have experienced, when you consider the price, the risk/reward ratio makes this a bit of a bargain — as long as nothing goes wrong, of course. Unfortunately, for a handful of people, it has. But for many others, it’s been a solid buy.

As for the talk about TanTan and how they operate, it’s definitely interesting. But at the end of the day, people really need to manage their expectations when spending $639 USD.

Should you expect great customer service? Honestly, not really but what I have received personally is satisfactory and I have had no issues.
Should you expect good quality? Yes — to a certain degree but nothing to the level of the genuine. I have had to sand down brake mounts and the transition spacer and that is it. Paint finish is not terrible could it be better yes and if I had the opportunity to say spend and other $100 for that I would. But built up the bike looks great and looks no different obviously to the real deal and I have managed to get it to 6.45kgs which is pretty.

However only time will tell how this frame goes and with the many who bought it last year it seems to be going ok for the large majority.

Some OEM frames will be better than others, and that’s just part of the risk we take with these kinds of purchases.

[patliean1]

The ironic usage of the UCI logo is to protect my buddy in case he doesn't want his face plastered on the interwebs. And to test whether or not TanTan will steal my photos 

Anyway, I didn't get a chance to actually ride the X68. I did inspect the bike and chat with my buddy after his championship race for a good hour. Call me vein but I am a sucker for premium components on cheap frames.

What he told me was the paint (which is beautiful in person) scratches easily and you have to be extremely mindful not to strip the screws. Particularly the saddle rail clamps. In hand the bike felt similar to my SL8 including the "sound" test around the carbon. Overall he's happy with the purchase. More comfortable than his genuine SL7.

[glepore]

I thought early on that if what I got was 70% of a real sl8 that'd be ok. I never expected 100%.

I bought the bike b/c I didn't know if at my advanced age I could make a sl8 comfortable. Turns out I can.

I do have a bit of a dilemma now. I really like this bike. If a real sl8 is better, I'd probably like that even more. BUT would I like it $2000 more? I can't imagine that I would. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'm sort of where Patrick says he is-the dollars are out of proportion. OTOH, I do have FOMO. 

I like wine. But I don't like a $350 Burgundy enough to buy one over an excellent $35 Pinot. Is the Burgundy better? Oh yeah, without a doubt. But so long as I'm on retirement savings I simply can't justify it.  But in that case, I've sampled the Burgundies and know what I'm missing. I haven't sampled an sl8.

As far as Tantan goes, in fairness they communicated promptly. They don't always have their facts straight-ie the headset size, what oem parts fit etc but I don't know that's intentional. They shipped me the wrong saddle, the paint shop was backed up and delayed my delivery, but in the end those were minor things. The white paint I have seems durable if heavy. The parts issues are minor.  The fork failure documented here isn't a minor thing, but ask Patrick about his Propel fork. Stuff happens. I do business with them again despite their non transparency on the source of the bike. At least they don't name their store "Taiwan...." when its got nothing to do with Taiwan.

And as far as the shape of the bike goes, nah, I don't think I'd rather have an x70. And would I sell the x68 without guilt? Absolutely, I'd advertise it as a tantan x68, without a second thought.

[Sander2177]

Great to hear some positive feedback from someone actually racing the frame — it’s good to know it’s being properly put through its paces. That said, Patrick, even if it’s just had one outing, everyone would still be keen to hear your impressions — but you already know that.

[EddytheEagle]

Anyone installed ltwoo on this frame? The front caliper doesn't fit and the ltwoo adapters don't work. I'm clueless

Did you solved the problem? I‘m just started to look for the correct adapter (in case there is one)

[Bonus79]

I don't want to be argumentative, but trade dress isn't that simple. First the design has to be so unique that it has what is known in the law as "acquired distinctiveness" ie immediate association with the brand. The shape of an sl8 is so similar to other modern bikes with aero features that, speed sniffer aside, I highly doubt it could be demonstrated to have acquired distinctiveness. Second, as to the one aspect that arguably does, the speed sniffer, it has a functional purpose. Trade dress protection does not extend to any aspect of the product that has functionality - anything that is essential to the use or purpose of the product or that affects its quality. You'd have to file for either a design patent or a full patent to protect that.

While I understand that folks are offended by copies, they don't automatically infringe IP.

I'm following the discussion with interest.
I don't presume to judge other people's choices but, correct me if I'm wrong, are you saying that the shape of the X68 doesn't recall Specialized and that the SL8 is similar to most modern bikes?
If so, I disagree: the X68 is clearly a 1:1 copy of the SL8 and that most modern bikes resemble the Tarmac SL, not the other way around. 

[glepore]

Did you solved the problem? I‘m just started to look for the correct adapter (in case there is one)

There isn't. Ltwoo uses their own adapters and the spacing is non standard. Folks use Shimano, z race etc to make it work. If you're in the usa I have a pair of very low mile Wheeltop calipers I'd let go cheap (I put Campy Ekar on my x68 with Wheeltop).

[glepore]

I'm following the discussion with interest.
I don't presume to judge other people's choices but, correct me if I'm wrong, are you saying that the shape of the X68 doesn't recall Specialized and that the SL8 is similar to most modern bikes?
If so, I disagree: the X68 is clearly a 1:1 copy of the SL8 and that most modern bikes resemble the Tarmac SL, not the other way around. 

I believe that if you cut off the speed sniffer and set the x68/sl8 in a "lineup" of other modern aero bikes they'd all share pretty similar feature-dropped rear stays, narrow seatubes with tucked wheel etc. The round tubes of the sl8 might be unusual but I wouldn't call them unique. As to who was first, that's not the point when discussing "trade dress".  The usual example cited of classic trade dress is a Coke bottle, a unique shape of a functional object that consumers immediately associate with the brand (or at least did, maybe less so in the can era). Other than the headtube the sl8 shape isn't so unique that it shouts "Specialized!" (IMHO)

[pandinoyoung]

sorry, I have to get the frame, I would like to mount it with L.Twoo erx, the LTwoo brake calipers are not suitable for this frame? did I understand correctly? Ltwoo does not provide a specific adapter for sl8 and tan tan does not have the adapter to mount any brake caliper?
let me understand

[glepore]

sorry, I have to get the frame, I would like to mount it with L.Twoo erx, the LTwoo brake calipers are not suitable for this frame? did I understand correctly? Ltwoo does not provide a specific adapter for sl8 and tan tan does not have the adapter to mount any brake caliper?
let me understand

https://chinertown.com/index.php?topic=4964.0

The spacing of Lwtoo's calipers is 70mm (everyone else uses 34), supposedly to avoid shimano's patent. Because the sl8/x68 requires a specific adapter to work with the fork, you can't use an Lwtoo caliper as the adapter isn't available. The frame bolt spacing flat mount standard is 70 fork/34 rear. The sl8 spacing is 68 mm on the fork, so you can't even use the Lwtoo directly mounted with their spacer - you'd have to fabricate something. The spacer that Specialized and tantan supplies is designed to mount a 34mm flat mount caliper to the fork with height for a 160 rotor.

Campagnolo users have a similar issue in that Campy's front caliper is a native 160 with a built in 70mm spacer, the workaround is to use a rear caliper with the specialized spacer.

Some ali sellers even substitute zrace calipers to get around this issue. https://www.aliexpress.com/i/3256805199194907.html

The beauty of mineral oil systems though is that you can substitute in just about anyone's caliper into the system with the appropriate barb and olive installed. 2 or 4 piston zrace, shimano with lwtoo or wheeltop, or Campy with Shimano or.... I put Campy calipers on my wheeltop build-the wheeltop calipers work great, but I wanted to save some weight and I prefer Campy's engagement point and feel to  Shimano's (which is what Wheeltop emulates).

[Bonus79]

I believe that if you cut off the speed sniffer and set the x68/sl8 in a "lineup" of other modern aero bikes they'd all share pretty similar feature-dropped rear stays, narrow seatubes with tucked wheel etc. The round tubes of the sl8 might be unusual but I wouldn't call them unique. As to who was first, that's not the point when discussing "trade dress".  The usual example cited of classic trade dress is a Coke bottle, a unique shape of a functional object that consumers immediately associate with the brand (or at least did, maybe less so in the can era). Other than the headtube the sl8 shape isn't so unique that it shouts "Specialized!" (IMHO)

I think instead that the first to introduce something new that is then copied by others becomes the "benchmark".

The rear seat stays were introduced by BMC and for years it has been a feature of their frames...just as the Tarmac SL7 was the first all-around aerodynamic frame that many manufacturers have then taken inspiration from.

If I see an X68 obviously I shout "Specialized"....but also R088/X70 (even if they have some differences in the front part) and many other frames strongly recall Specialized.

Obviously there are also other frames that recall other models: Pinarello, Cannondale, Cervélo....brands that have introduced or are also distinguished by certain characteristics.

[tiz92]

https://www.strava.com/activities/14733262692


I raced the frame yesterday for 7h across the alps and clearly it didnt hold me back.

[EddytheEagle]

There isn't. Ltwoo uses their own adapters and the spacing is non standard. Folks use Shimano, z race etc to make it work. If you're in the usa I have a pair of very low mile Wheeltop calipers I'd let go cheap (I put Campy Ekar on my x68 with Wheeltop).

Highly appreciated but I currently already have the Ltwoo groupset mounted and just the adapter is missing. I already wrote ltwoo directly and panda podium. Let’s see if they can solve it with an accurate adapter and I will give you a feedback on this.