Another Aethos clone coming soon UDH/T47

[jonathanf2]

FYI - I found this frame on Chinese social media. For the past few weeks, I've been chit chatting with the local cyclists in China using the built-in app translator. They've been super friendly and my old TFSA frame is a big hit with the DIY enthusiasts. Also I like looking at the bike builds and their local ride locations. I'm trying to get more info from the vendor who's selling this frame. I found it amusing that in the comments, the locals weren't really interested and just thought it was another Aethos wannabe! 

[Serge_K]

I like that you make contacts with Chinese forum users, sounds very useful, and i saw your comments about the Chinese market also feeling that LTWOO is unreliable and gives no F
I have 2 friends on (real) Aethos frames. They're hopelessly slow on the flat, and smoke me like i'm standing still uphill. Which is to say, they'd benefit from being on aero machines, which is the case for virtually 100% of people. This is a proven slow design, physically can't be that stiff given the little meat around the BB, and comfort would be better achieved with dropped seat stays. I know everyone likes a light bike, but just a reminder for the casual reader of this forum that unless you're really going very slow uphill, 100% of the rest of the time, a rider benefits from a more aero optimized frame. It's not w/o reason that Specialized teams ride SL8 and not Aethos (and the SL8 isn't even THAT aero). Now for reasons i dont get, the Aethos has a cult following, but from experience, there's a lot of value in having a bike that will at all times save you a few watts, especially when you're doing a long loop, there's headwind on the way back, you're out of food, riding alone, it's flat, and you question your life choices :p
And a note on headwind. If you're going 25kmh into a strong headwind, your frame is fighting air at 40+kmh, and wind resistance goes up by the cube of speed, so it looks (and feels) pretty much exponential. Aero does matter, it's not a conspiracy to sell bikes. And no, i'm not saying everybody should be riding system six bikes in the mountains.

[hugovl]

Sorry mate, just watch the latest Nero Show on the aero matter please.
I'm not repeating or agreeing fully on their opinion, in case of factory/brand claims. But honestly, aero just comes into play for speeds of at least 40k/h (the pro's speed).
For us ordinary mortals riding at 30k an hour, it does not make the impact you are suggesting.

Therefore a much bigger impact will be a lighter bike for many cyclists.

[casper.f]

aero just comes into play for speeds of at least 40k/h (the pro's speed).
For us ordinary mortals riding at 30k an hour, it does not make the impact you are suggesting.

Well it does, maybe try some GCN before suggesting the Nero show

[jfcb]

I believe Serge's point is you'd be better off with a "do it all" bike which is semi-aero/semi-lightweight like the SL8 than a non-aero, lightweight bike like the Aethos. The difference between both frames is only 150gr. That will not make you much faster uphill and you'll be slower when going on the flats/downhill. 

[Serge_K]

I believe Serge's point is you'd be better off with a "do it all" bike which is semi-aero/semi-lightweight like the SL8 than a non-aero, lightweight bike like the Aethos. The difference between both frames is only 150gr. That will not make you much faster uphill and you'll be slower when going on the flats/downhill.

Exact. Except 150g weight difference even up a 2h climb results in a rounding error. Your body weight will fluctuate more than that over such a climb.

But honestly, aero just comes into play for speeds of at least 40k/h (the pro's speed).
For us ordinary mortals riding at 30k an hour, it does not make the impact you are suggesting.
Therefore a much bigger impact will be a lighter bike for many cyclists.

1. wrong, literally by definition / mathematically.
2. wrong, i guess you dont do much riding.
3. wrong as proven even by GCN IRL, i think they did the same mountain pass with / without an extra bottle and couldn't see a difference. Or mathematically, you can input a gradient, 2 different weights, and see the watts difference required to get up. it system weight is 85kg vs 85.2kg, good luck finding a difference IRL.

You might be a troll given this is your first message, idk. If you really mean your message, truly, you're years behind the curve.

[jonathanf2]

BTW - They nicknamed this frame the "Aether" which I found pretty funny. 

Besides weight, I prefer climbing with bikes that have high seat stays. If you do a search, the science does say it's better optimized for uphill pedal efficiency. A round seat post seems more practical if aero isn't a big concern. Also looking at the geometry, this bike is more upright, so it doesn't look as awkward as an actual Aethos. To me it looks to have the traditional bike shape with all the updated aspects of modern bikes.

Though my SPcycle R088 SL8 clone did come in at 790g with all hangers attached! I think it comes down to it, if you want a dedicated climbing bike and prefer a more traditional looking bike. 

[zxcvbnmjm]

Not sure if its been mentioned on this forum yet but a frameset released in china a few months ago and has been somewhat popular on chinese social media

Vook v8

XS claimed weight is 690g for frame. Not sure if its including paint or raw but ive seen someone post a S at 749g

Geometry is more upright compared to aethos. Shorter reach and higher stack. Im pretty interested but theres only one colourway released at the moment and its not really my thing.

Retail price is 4000rmb with 5 year warranty and 1 year crash replacement

[zxcvbnmjm]

BTW, heres comparing 'Aether' to sl7 geometry

In each size for the exact same stack, Aether has 10mm more reach than the SL7

SL7 has pretty racy geo so thats a no from me, dawg

[jonathanf2]

I like that you make contacts with Chinese forum users, sounds very useful, and i saw your comments about the Chinese market also feeling that LTWOO is unreliable and gives no F

This is what I gathered from talking to cyclists in China. 105 Di2 is cheaper over there (in the $600+ USD range), so they've been critical with LTwoo to improve their product and service. I even had some comments asking why would I even use ER9 when 105 Di2 is better?  Also domestic demand for well-priced quality frames is pushing manufacturers to step up their game. As I mentioned, TFSA has almost a cult following over there. One mention of a TFSA bike, and your comment section gets flooded with TFSA owner bike photos. I noticed SEKA bikes to be well-received and titanium manufacturer Laget is one to watch. They're producing beautiful 3D printed ti framesets with seamless joints and no welds. One road bike I saw came in at 7.4kg and that's titanium!

It's similar to being a car guy in the 90s looking at Japanese modified cars. It's just a different scene over there!

[Sakizashi]

[...] titanium manufacturer Laget is one to watch. They're producing beautiful 3D printed ti framesets with seamless joints and no welds. One road bike I saw came in at 7.4kg and that's titanium!

Laget or TSB is one of the coolest 3d printing companies in bike space IMO. I suspect that most of their work is B2B--and in that sense, they feel like the Silca of China. Their principal is relatively well published in terms of 3d printing metallurgy as well. Not sure how much bike experience they have, but they were at Sea Otter and looks like their staff did the sportive / event there too.

Exact. Except 150g weight difference even up a 2h climb results in a rounding error. Your body weight will fluctuate more than that over such a climb.

You are right; aero is the most important, but it's the aero of the system, not the bike, that matters.

I fall in the camp of folks who think that frame aerodynamics have had more importance attached to them than there should be because people have started to think of them as "free speed." But, if you wind that back and look at CDA numbers and testing protocols you start to see a lot of inconsistency that suggests that aero shaping of a frame has a lot less effect in real world racing than working out the right position or even using a dual layer skinsuit vs. a traditional skinsuit.

A frame like this one probably has a relatively low A in terms of CDA, but more importantly, that extra length, 75-degree seatpost, and low stack allow for the rider to achieve a really low A as well. The round post even opens up the option of using a forward offset post. For the riders that find an improvement from those fit attributes, the change is likely a few multiples more than what an aero frameset with a more traditional geometry would allow when in that fast attack position. A bike that's faster when attacking might be a better fit for riders than one that is optimized for riding efficiently in the flats, depending on the rider's goals. If you were working towards the fastest setup you could get, even within a generous budget, you might be better off getting a frame like this that is easy / cheap to tinker with and spending the money on high-end or even custom skinsuits.

Overall I love the idea of this frame. The geo is unique even compared to the higher-end Chinese and western brands. The only weird thing about this frame is the 43mm offset fork. With this geometry, I would have expected them to use a 47mm.

[hugovl]

Exact. Except 150g weight difference even up a 2h climb results in a rounding error. Your body weight will fluctuate more than that over such a climb.

1. wrong, literally by definition / mathematically.
2. wrong, i guess you dont do much riding.
3. wrong as proven even by GCN IRL, i think they did the same mountain pass with / without an extra bottle and couldn't see a difference. Or mathematically, you can input a gradient, 2 different weights, and see the watts difference required to get up. it system weight is 85kg vs 85.2kg, good luck finding a difference IRL.

You might be a troll given this is your first message, idk. If you really mean your message, truly, you're years behind the curve.

Sorry, not trying to troll here. And maybe I didn't explain myself at best, fair enough.
But what I'm trying to say is, aero gains are not only determined by the bike but also by the rider and the rider's position.
You can ride an aero bike, but if you can't maintain an aero position on it for a few hours, which I think most ordinary people can't, what's the point then?

[Serge_K]

Sorry, not trying to troll here. And maybe I didn't explain myself at best, fair enough.
But what I'm trying to say is, aero gains are not only determined by the bike but also by the rider and the rider's position.
You can ride an aero bike, but if you can't maintain an aero position on it for a few hours, which I think most ordinary people can't, what's the point then?

Ah, that i agree with 100%, but it's not at all what you wrote or meant in your previous message
When i say aero matters, i'm not saying that only the frame matters, and you can ride upright, w 50cm bars, panniers on the sides of the fork, wearing a baggy open jacket and an afro the size of Jupiter. I'm saying, aero matters

[jonathanf2]

Some of the easiest aero gains I've found is swapping out to narrower bars (34cm or narrower) and using an aero'ish helmet with minimal vents + attachable lenses. It's like free speed which is most noticeable on the downhill. In fact, one of my bikes have 38cm bars and now they feel wide to me. Also drafting buses or big cars are a great speed boost when on the streets! 

I think with the geometry of this Aether frame, you could set it up a bit narrow and use some mid-depth dish wheels. It can still be optimized for climbing, but you won't have to be a wind sail on the flats.

[hugovl]

Ah, that i agree with 100%, but it's not at all what you wrote or meant in your previous message
When i say aero matters, i'm not saying that only the frame matters, and you can ride upright, w 50cm bars, panniers on the sides of the fork, wearing a baggy open jacket and an afro the size of Jupiter. I'm saying, aero matters

Point taken