Continuation: IIIPRO E4 4-Piston Hydraulic MTB Brakes - Are they to be trusted?

[Tijoe]

   
Since the original thread is over 120 days old, this is new thread regarding these IIIPRO brakes and my experience with them.

Existing thread:  https://chinertown.com/index.php?topic=4049.0

My conclusion after almost 2 years of usage!  No they are not to be trusted.  My trust in them being reliable and safe is gone!!!

Yesterday I finished riding a 300 mile multi-day bike-camping ride.  32K up and 32K descending.   About 100 miles into the ride, the rear brake started losing pressure.  I had to start pumping up the brakes by rapid-pulsing of the rear lever.   This made descending steep sections of slippery gravel roads a challenge.   This is the 5th 4-piston IIIPro caliper that failed, and the front caliper on the same bike is starting to have the same problem.   (FYI, My brother, who I talked into purchasing a set suffered the same failure on one of his calipers.)

After trying, unsuccessfully!, to rebuild my first pair of calipers, failed, this caliper will join 4 others in the "failed parts" bin.     

Every caliper that has failed, appears to start sucking in small amounts of air between the seals and the piston/body.   Over time I can start to see a small amount of air bubbles coming out of the seals when the calipers are activated on the bench.  When too much air works it way into the calipers they loose pressure.   

I really am Pissed off about this overall. 

I will try one more time to try to work with IIIPRO to figure out if any of the calipers can be repaired and trusted to use again!

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804577690212.html

[frnchy]

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

Fool me six times….

Just buy some cheap Shimano brakes, or if you’re hauling heavy loads on a flat bar bike routinely, bite the bullet and invest in some Mavens. Unlike a lot of other components, brakes are an area where Chinese products are not up to par with established brands (not even necessarily western ones; TRP is Taiwanese and they make good brakes too).

[bremerradkurier]

The current AliX price doesn't seem all that great compared to the seemingly identical Clarks branded brakes.

[urlhttps://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/clarks-crs-c4-cnc-4-piston-hydraulic-disc-brake-set-295294.htmlurl]

[Tijoe]

Can you please explain the thought process of buying the same product 6 times? I'm not making fun, I really do wonder how you justified giving the same product another chance, then another, then another, then another, then another?
We have been running ltwoo er9 on five bikes and all but one derailleurs died once, but no derailleur has died a second time, and it was across five bikes.

Also, it's a bummer, because the calipers look similar to the road version that came out recently as reviewed by trace vélo. And I'm tempted.

Actually, I have "4 sets" of the IIIPros, and one set of the 4-piston Bucklos brakes.  (Bucklos = parent company of IIIPro.)

I purchased the IIIPro brakes "2-sets" at a time during Aliexpress sales, about 6 months apart, before I started having problems with the calipers.   (Purchased 3 sets for bikes I built, and a spare set.)
Based on the initial reviews 1-1/2 to 2 years ago, they appeared to be a good modulated feeling lightweight  great brake for the price.   -  They have performed very well overall, but appear to have a short seal life.
 
When I think about the bike that the calipers are failing on,  it appears that on this bike,  I do a lot of  heavy duty long downhill braking, at high speeds, and this is where the calipers don't last.   This is my hardtail that doubles as a bike camping/bikepacker.  I am guessing that heat build-up in the calipers is doing something to the seals.

Since I started this thread, I wrote Bucklos explaining the situation, and to ask if they have a seal kit, versus me purchasing replacement seals based on digital caliper measurements and what I could find online for sale.   

I've had my fair share of premature leaky seal failures on my XT calipers over the years,  so having seal failures on the IIIPros isn't too big of a surprise.

What I would like to know is if IIIPro is using a crappy seal material, or if they have a design flaw in the calipers leading to short seal life.   (When I look at the design of the caliper bore that the seals and pistons fit into, they visually look the same as all the other calipers I have rebuilt over the years.   
of the leaky calipers. I see no signs of wear on the bores or pistons. 

[Fat Larry]

Actually, I have "4 sets" of the IIIPros, and one set of the 4-piston Bucklos brakes.  (Bucklos = parent company of IIIPro.)

I purchased the IIIPro brakes "2-sets" at a time during Aliexpress sales, about 6 months apart, before I started having problems with the calipers.   (Purchased 3 sets for bikes I built, and a spare set.)
Based on the initial reviews 1-1/2 to 2 years ago, they appeared to be a good modulated feeling lightweight  great brake for the price.   -  They have performed very well overall, but appear to have a short seal life.
 
When I think about the bike that the calipers are failing on,  it appears that on this bike,  I do a lot of  heavy duty long downhill braking, at high speeds, and this is where the calipers don't last.   This is my hardtail that doubles as a bike camping/bikepacker.  I am guessing that heat build-up in the calipers is doing something to the seals.

Since I started this thread, I wrote Bucklos explaining the situation, and to ask if they have a seal kit, versus me purchasing replacement seals based on digital caliper measurements and what I could find online for sale.   

I've had my fair share of premature leaky seal failures on my XT calipers over the years,  so having seal failures on the IIIPros isn't too big of a surprise.

What I would like to know is if IIIPro is using a crappy seal material, or if they have a design flaw in the calipers leading to short seal life.   (When I look at the design of the caliper bore that the seals and pistons fit into, they visually look the same as all the other calipers I have rebuilt over the years.   
of the leaky calipers. I see no signs of wear on the bores or pistons. 

Did you ever get an answer from Bucklos or have you given up Tijoe?

I saw some of these being sold at the moment under the brand Speedone that had a ceramic looking piston in the caliper. Wonder if it would make a difference.

Are you still of the opinion they're not rebuildable with better seals?

[Tijoe]

Did you ever get an answer from Bucklos or have you given up Tijoe?

I saw some of these being sold at the moment under the brand Speedone that had a ceramic looking piston in the caliper. Wonder if it would make a difference.

Are you still of the opinion they're not rebuildable with better seals?

I never hear back from Bucklos and didn't follow up again.

Interesting timing:  I have a ride tomorrow on a very "chunky-rock" 9 mile gravel road climb tomorrow. (Actually today since it is already Sunday)

I decided to ride my slacker Ti Hardtail and pulled it down from where it has been hanging for about 6 months.   I thought I could air up the tires, check shifting and be ready to ride.   The Rear IIIPro brake had absolutely no pad/piston travel when the lever was pulled.
- I went through my normal brake bleeding process (that has always worked on XTs and other brakes),  NOTHING!   No matter what I tried I couldn't get any brake action. 
- On this bike, the lines are external to the frame so I saidl screw-it and I removed the complete assembly off the bike.
- I set it up on a bench fixture I put together a while back.   

(I removed the hose from the caliper and lever and checked the seals and the line fittings - good.)
(I removed the pads and replaced them with a spacer/brake bleed block and pushed the pistons all the way in. - They retraced Ok)
(With my brake bleed syringe I purged a lot of fluid out the line hole into a pan.  No bubbles.
(Then when I started inspecting the lever assembly, I saw that there was no visible mineral oil in the exit to the brake line.  I manually drip filled the line hole with fluid, then connected the brake hose.)
Then reconnected the caliper to the hose and made sure the fittings were tight.

With the lever assembly sitting level in my fixture, I removed the bleed/fill screw in installed a fill funnel then installed a syringe filled with mineral oil in the bleed port of the caliper.
I pushed a lot of mineral oil up into the lever reservoir.  a lot of bubbles came out of the funnel. 
I removed the funnel and pumped the lever.  I started to see a bit of piston action and fluid being moved into the syringe. No air bubbles.
I took the lever assembly and "tapped it" in all sorts of directions while pumping the lever. (Bleed screw installed.)
I repeated pushing fluid through the syringe up into the funnel.  A lot more bubbles!
I replaced the bleed plugs, again, and wow!  Fantastic brake lever action and piston action.

I am beginning to believe that most of my problems are coming from not being able to bleed all of the air out of the master cylinder and reservoir when I bleed the assembly on the bike.   Air must stay trapped somewhere in the reservoir/exit area that later on, migrates into the piston area of the master cylinder.


Regarding the one Caliper I installed new Hope 16mm seals in, it is still working well.

[Fat Larry]

Sounds like a lot of work.

Are you just running the trickstuff knock off levers? I wonder how all the other lever versions fair.

I was about to pull the trigger on this version today after reading that the new oliveless barb has leaking issues. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005008278302009.html? but came across a set of TRPs on local market place for a good deal so went with them instead.

ZTTO have a trickstuff style lever with a bladder in it. Might be easier to bleed. Could also be another point of failure...  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005990805088.html?

[Tijoe]

Another problem...

My 20 mile ride today was an out and back gravel Forest service road ride.  We started out riding up 5 mile long chunky rock climb with up to 15% sections, with an average of about 8% grade.  At the top, we went down a gradual hill for a few miles, eventually meeting up with 2 other riders, to turn around and go back down.

As I wrote in my last post, I was able to get my rear IIIPro brake working again.  Yeah!  My front brake has been untouched since installation and has worked well for over 1000 hard miles, and has had one pad change.   I started the ride out with great front brake stopping power.  Then...

On my way down the mellow downhill, I was working my front brake some to slow down.   Then after coasting at speed for a while before a corner, I pulled the front lever and...   NO stopping power, front lever pulled all the way to the bars!   I had to do a rapid pull many times to build enough pressure for the brake to even slow me down. 

The main climb up was quite interesting descending with only a rear brake, and a front brake that added a little stopping power after I rapid-pumped the lever to build enough pressure to keep my speed in check.

In short,  WTF!   
this is becoming a love-hate relationship with these brakes  (I have already looked for leaks and don't see any leaking fluid.)   

If I could be paid for all of the time I have spent trying to keep these brakes operational, I could purchase the most expensive brakes on the market.

[Fat Larry]

On my way down the mellow downhill, I was working my front brake some to slow down.   Then after coasting at speed for a while before a corner, I pulled the front lever and...   NO stopping power, front lever pulled all the way to the bars!   I had to do a rapid pull many times to build enough pressure for the brake to even slow me down. 

The main climb up was quite interesting descending with only a rear brake, and a front brake that added a little stopping power after I rapid-pumped the lever to build enough pressure to keep my speed in check.

In short,  WTF!   
this is becoming a love-hate relationship with these brakes  (I have already looked for leaks and don't see any leaking fluid.)   

If I could be paid for all of the time I have spent trying to keep these brakes operational, I could purchase the most expensive brakes on the market.

That sounds scary, lucky you didn't have an accident....

Sounds like the levers are best avoided all together. Maybe use the hope seal refurbished callipers with some Shimano levers? Really does sound like they're just too much work though, which is a shame as they're so pretty..

Just get some mt420/520s and be done with it. You can get a set of mt4100/420s on ali for around the same or a bit less than the IIIPro brakes and they're supposed to be plenty powerful and not suffer from Shimanos wandering bite point issues.

[danielG169]

I see there is a new model called the R2X4 on the market. Do you think they addressed any of the issues?

[Tijoe]

In general, for the past 10+ years I have been trying to avoid purchasing from Shimano, SRAM and Campy.  I know that if I have to I can purchase Shimano, except I have typically preferred to not to spent my money on their products.   
My brother, tried the IIIPro E4s.  After about 6 month of usage he mailed them to me said they were garbage and now uses Magura brakes.  He says he loves them.   

Several years ago when I first purchased the IIIPro E4s, I thought they were fantastic! after 6 months of usage I loved my first set.  I purchased 3 more sets for other bikes I was building.   For a while, they all worked well.  then they didn't.   I have 3 sets in operation, and the 4th set has become "spares".
I feel invested in them and want to make them work.
----
This morning I removed the soft levered front brake assembly and put it on the bench.   Took some pictures of the caliper right off the bike, dirt and all, and looked for leaks.  No leaks!   

I want to note that the front brake assembly, as received, are factory assembled, and on this front brake, other than replacing the pads once, I have never exchanged mineral oil, or bled them.  This particular front set of brakes has always worked/stopped really well.  1000+  hard miles.  Then yesterday, they didn't work!


I clamped the lever assembly in place with the bleed port facing the top and level, removed the brake pads, cleaned the caliper and installed a brake block.
when I pulled on the lever it was still soft, and pulled all the way, I couldn't even see the pistons pushing out onto the brake block.

I removed the bleed port and the reservoir was full.

I very carefully and very slowly pulled the lever all the way until it stopped, about 2/3 of the way pulled, some fluid was flowing out the bleed port so I gradually released the lever, then all of the sudden, the rest of the fluid in the reservoir sucked back in and the reservoir looked almost empty.  WTF!    I added drops of mineral oil until the reservoir was full. (Quite a few drops) I put the bleed plug back in and pulled the lever a few times and I could see and feel some motion on the caliper pistons.

I pulled the lever numerous times, and the resistance on the lever gradually improved.  I removed the bleed port and the reservoir took a few more drops of brake fluid.   When I replace the bleed screw and pulled on the lever, it was felt firm and responsive.  I put the pads back in and installed the assembly back on the bike.
Braking action feels right back to how it felt before yesterday's ride.

What is driving me crazy, is how can a closed hydraulic system, that has no leaks, and worked well for a long long time, all of the sudden stop working and develop a  "void" inside such that pulling the lever doesn't move any fluid to the caliper. 

And, that this happened without any warning over time, it suddenly stopped working*!

*Note:  The 3 rear brake problems where the back brake stopped working, all started giving me symptoms before they stopped working gradually failing during the ride.

[Tijoe]

I see there is a new model called the R2X4 on the market. Do you think they addressed any of the issues?

I don't think that IIIPro believes they have any problems or issues with the E4s.   I complained to them once and they weren't very helpful at the time.

I am beginning to believe that there is some problem with the E4 levers that somehow develops a void or air somewhere in the lever hydraulics.   Could be caused by "improper" bleeding, or lack of technique by me.   Who knows.   I haven't seen many complaints about the E4s other than me.

I am also beginning to form an opinion that for some reason on my bikes with rear brake internal hose routing, I am unable to get all of the air bubbles out of the system and this come back to haunt me later.   Seems like when I bleed the brake off the bike such that I can freely move the lever assembly and calipers in all sorts of directions, I am able to get all the bubbles out.

[danielG169]

I don't think that IIIPro believes they have any problems or issues with the E4s.   I complained to them once and they weren't very helpful at the time.

I am beginning to believe that there is some problem with the E4 levers that somehow develops a void or air somewhere in the lever hydraulics.   Could be caused by "improper" bleeding, or lack of technique by me.   Who knows.   I haven't seen many complaints about the E4s other than me.

I am also beginning to form an opinion that for some reason on my bikes with rear brake internal hose routing, I am unable to get all of the air bubbles out of the system and this come back to haunt me later.   Seems like when I bleed the brake off the bike such that I can freely move the lever assembly and calipers in all sorts of directions, I am able to get all the bubbles out.

The new R2X4 and R3X4 have different levers and seemingly the same calipers. I can't seem to find information on whether I can use BH90 brake hose, compression nuts, olives for them. They are advertising a reusable no olive system, but I am sure that will leak, I don't trust it.

Have you tried bleeding with the lever at a 45 degree angle? I know some brakes have to be angled rather than level, I can see how at certain angles air wouldn't be able to escape. But I don't understand how that air could suddenly pop up in the system, must be a really poorly designed master cylinder.

[Fat Larry]

The new R2X4 and R3X4 have different levers and seemingly the same calipers. I can't seem to find information on whether I can use BH90 brake hose, compression nuts, olives for them. They are advertising a reusable no olive system, but I am sure that will leak, I don't trust it.

Have you tried bleeding with the lever at a 45 degree angle? I know some brakes have to be angled rather than level, I can see how at certain angles air wouldn't be able to escape. But I don't understand how that air could suddenly pop up in the system, must be a really poorly designed master cylinder.

Wrote this in the other thread but.. I spent ages looking at them a few days ago and spotted a review on one of the Ali listings saying that the new barb leaks..

Shame, the levers look great.

I'm curious about the Frog Wake brakes now, similar looking callipers, with three different lever shapes I've seen. Still I'm not going to be the test subject as i'm sorted for brakes.

[danielG169]

Wrote this in the other thread but.. I spent ages looking at them a few days ago and spotted a review on one of the Ali listings saying that the new barb leaks..

Shame, the levers look great.

I'm curious about the Frog Wake brakes now, similar looking callipers, with three different lever shapes I've seen. Still I'm not going to be the test subject as i'm sorted for brakes.

I wouldn't trust that barb as far as I can throw it, but if you could replace it with BH90 and olives, then I would use them.