Author Topic: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list  (Read 41639 times)

patliean1

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2025, 10:20:20 AM »
8mm backwards lol
« Last Edit: December 03, 2025, 11:38:50 AM by patliean1 »

voidptr

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2025, 10:32:36 AM »
There is what I wish for, and there is the reality that Peter needs to make money and not take risks beyond what he considers reasonable for his business. I understand why these are the geometries, and while I find it disappointing to see another "me too" bike, it's a very rational choice and almost certainly a better business decision in the near term.
If you look at Velobuild for example, I think their bold moves are paying off.
Their quality and reputation isn't great, but they're selling plenty of AeroGravs and AeroTraces.
Progressive geometries might still be niche right now, but if Specialized is playing the geometry card with the Venge release next summer, then every west and east brand are going to follow.

Pistonbroke

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2025, 11:12:05 AM »
If you look at Velobuild for example, I think their bold moves are paying off.
Their quality and reputation isn't great, but they're selling plenty of AeroGravs and AeroTraces.
Progressive geometries might still be niche right now, but if Specialized is playing the geometry card with the Venge release next summer, then every west and east brand are going to follow.

Yup.
The reason I bought the Aerotrace was to try geometry that isn't really available elsewhere, and do you know what, it's really really nice to ride.

patliean1

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2025, 12:02:53 PM »
We are seeing in real time two modest companies with what I assume very tight engineering, production, and marketing budgets take two completely different approaches to designing a new frame. VeloBuild and XMCS. I'm happy to see there's a place for both to exists successfully. Two completely different demographics.

I imagine having a limited marketing budget means online forums and influencers do most of the heavy lifting to spread awareness. This can be very dangerous if your product is crap. And if you're trying to gain market share to customers/athletes who still hold the traditional values of western brands then going conservative with a "me too" bike is probably the best course for a smaller business.

Peter will have a booth at Sea Otter for 2026. Even with a registered U.S. trademark now it's gonna be an uphill battle. That trade show is pretty much the final boss of who's who in brand recognition and snobbery. Not to mention the various teams and privateers who show up to race the weekend. It appears that Peter is focusing on promoting his actual brand. Rather than his OEM capabilities. Every move needs to be very calculated I reckon.

Requiem84

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2025, 12:06:44 PM »
I like the two models, nice start of a range.

But like others said, to identify XMCS as its own unique proposition, it would help to create a more adventurous design. Even if it doesn’t sell great, it will help in brand positioning.

toxin

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2025, 12:28:01 PM »
If you're trying to grow a brand quickly and break out, this is honestly far too generic. If it were still the early 2020s, it might work, but now I predict these are gonna be written off as just another of dozens of chinese frames. I don't really like the new Incolor SSR, but it's going to do wonders for getting the brand name out into the world. Relying on influencers to praise your manufacturing quality isn't gonna do the trick these days. You need something that makes you stand out at a glance.

If you want to grow and slowly establish yourself as a pillar of the industry like Giant did, it might work, but you'd need a whole lot of patience and resources, which I'm not ssure XMCS have the luxury of.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2025, 12:50:37 PM by toxin »

patliean1

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2025, 01:23:35 PM »
I'm thinking about this from an athlete's perspective based on the frequency of inquires I get about specific frames/wheels. Of course I'm just one person and one sample set. And competitive athletes probably make up a very small percentage of actual buyers. So this is probably a moot point.

Winspace, Tavelo, and QuickPro rule my inbox whenever I get asked/approached about alternative "race" frames. Usually these folks have already done their research and are just looking for confirmation. And for wheel inquires it's Elite Wheels, No.6, and XMCS. Not everyone inquiring is a crit bro. But in their minds "good enough for racing" means they won't explode. It's sad how strong the Chinese brand stigma is, but it's slowly changing.

These brands aren't exactly reinventing the wheel (pun intended). Yet, they've built up enough brand cache and awareness that even the average athlete who doesn't spend hours on the internet like myself might be consider buying from. The Tavelo Arow and QuickPro ER:One aren't some radical frame designs. But they do the important things well yet cheaper than their Western brand counterparts. Same with the Winspace T1500 from a few years ago.

So while yes I would appreciate seeing a more progressive approach to frame design, I also know first-hand how finicky athletes can be. At least here in Chicago-land. They mostly just want budget alternative to brands they are already well familiar with.

EDIT: Any thoughts about a name for these frames? In my head I was thinking something like the AERO 1 and GT 1, respectively. This is above my pay grade clearly.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2025, 01:37:18 PM by patliean1 »

Sakizashi

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2025, 02:37:35 PM »
If you're trying to grow a brand quickly and break out, this is honestly far too generic. If it were still the early 2020s, it might work, but now I predict these are gonna be written off as just another of dozens of chinese frames. I don't really like the new Incolor SSR, but it's going to do wonders for getting the brand name out into the world. Relying on influencers to praise your manufacturing quality isn't gonna do the trick these days. You need something that makes you stand out at a glance.

If you want to grow and slowly establish yourself as a pillar of the industry like Giant did, it might work, but you'd need a whole lot of patience and resources, which I'm not ssure XMCS have the luxury of.

Your point about differentiation is a good one, and I did post a whole geometry for where I see the fits headed in a few years, with more stack differentiation than you see today with longer fits. Most people react as I saw here, with skepticism and the assumption that it could never work for them. A lot of people who ride my bike are surprised to find how well it does work, as it's closer to an endurance-focused tri bike fit than to a proper UCI TT fit.

I started my learning journey on this type of tri-bike fit geometry in 2022 with both a custom bar and laying out the case to make track-style bars for the road in the HB24. Neither were original ideas, but even after three years have elapsed, I have yet to try to raise the funds to have a frame made for a couple of reasons.

First, because there is still a lot of learning about this concept left to do, and a lot of potential UCI regulations that could reduce your investment to rubble overnight. I look at VB, and I do not see that kind of bike unless you are looking at the larger two sizes. If anything, it's more of a toe dipped into the water to create some differentiation. I DO see it with Ridley, and there is a lot to learn by looking at how people are actually riding the Noah Fast 3.0 in real life, but those bikes are pretty rare outside of situations where you see riders sponsored by Ridley.

But the bigger issue is that even with the Ridley existing, it's still mostly a novel and niche concept. On the average 30-person group ride, 0-1 persons are thinking about this. In my experience, that one person is either a serious crit racer or a high-level triathlete.

XMCS could have been part of creating that conversation, but it would also have been a lot of work and required a significant marketing budget. Probably not the best place to start for a small brand looking to build its rep, but would have been BOLD AF. Unfortunately, bold doesn't = $$$.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2025, 02:42:18 PM by Sakizashi »

Vasegaard

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2025, 02:52:27 PM »
Your point about differentiation is a good one, and I did post a whole geometry for where I see the fits headed in a few years, with more stack differentiation than you see today with longer fits. Most people react as I saw here, with skepticism and the assumption that it could never work for them. A lot of people who ride my bike are surprised to find how well it does work, as it's closer to an endurance-focused tri bike fit than to a proper UCI TT fit.

I started my learning journey on this type of tri-bike fit geometry in 2022 with both a custom bar and laying out the case to make track-style bars for the road in the HB24. Neither were original ideas, but even after three years have elapsed, I have yet to try to raise the funds to have a frame made for a couple of reasons.

First, because there is still a lot of learning about this concept left to do, and a lot of potential UCI regulations that could reduce your investment to rubble overnight. I look at VB, and I do not see that kind of bike unless you are looking at the larger two sizes. If anything, it's more of a toe dipped into the water to create some differentiation. I DO see it with Ridley, and there is a lot to learn by looking at how people are actually riding the Noah Fast 3.0 in real life, but those bikes are pretty rare outside of situations where you see riders sponsored by Ridley.

But the bigger issue is that even with the Ridley existing, it's still mostly a novel and niche concept. On the average 30-person group ride, 0-1 persons are thinking about this. In my experience, that one person is either a serious crit racer or a high-level triathlete.

XMCS could have been part of creating that conversation, but it would also have been a lot of work and required a significant marketing budget. Probably not the best place to start for a small brand looking to build its rep, but would have been BOLD AF. Unfortunately, bold doesn't = $$$.

Mind sharing the post on geometry. I’ve Got no idea what to search for

Sander2177

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2025, 03:05:02 PM »
get that this frame isn’t bringing anything new to the table. Honestly, in the bike space—whether Western or Chinese brands—everything starts to blur together; there’s not much real innovation on either side of the fence. The Y1RS looks radical, but I think that’s more about being different and standing out to drive sales than genuinely pushing the limits.

The market is saturated. Brands are struggling, and everyone is playing it safe. The SL9 trademark has been registered, so it’ll be interesting to see what Specialized brings to the table. They led with the “one bike does it all” concept, which everyone else has followed to some degree, and the new Rovals, in my opinion, were a dead duck.

The bloody UCI is half the problem with its archaic rules, which stifle real innovation.

Either way, I’m still very interested in this bike. The 54 cm has geometry very close to the SL8. I really miss my old Venge and want a full-on aero bike back in the stable.

I was considering the Quick Pro ER One, but the branding is just so sh1t. I love the bike—I just don’t want “Quick Pro” splashed across the downtube. The XMC is a good-looking alternative. I just hope the frame isn’t a total beast; around 900 g for the lightest UD finish would be a good target, but I fear I might be clutching at straws. Regardless, we at least know the quality will be there.

I didn’t even clock the new S5 until a month or so ago, and it’s a great-looking bike—except for those bloody handlebars. The deep head tube looks fantastic, though. So I’m hoping the bar aesthetics work with the XMC. On a lot of bikes with shallower head tubes, the integrated bars look odd and a bit lost.


bremerradkurier

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2025, 03:09:12 PM »
Your point about differentiation is a good one, and I did post a whole geometry for where I see the fits headed in a few years, with more stack differentiation than you see today with longer fits. Most people react as I saw here, with skepticism and the assumption that it could never work for them. A lot of people who ride my bike are surprised to find how well it does work, as it's closer to an endurance-focused tri bike fit than to a proper UCI TT fit.

I started my learning journey on this type of tri-bike fit geometry in 2022 with both a custom bar and laying out the case to make track-style bars for the road in the HB24. Neither were original ideas, but even after three years have elapsed, I have yet to try to raise the funds to have a frame made for a couple of reasons.

First, because there is still a lot of learning about this concept left to do, and a lot of potential UCI regulations that could reduce your investment to rubble overnight. I look at VB, and I do not see that kind of bike unless you are looking at the larger two sizes. If anything, it's more of a toe dipped into the water to create some differentiation. I DO see it with Ridley, and there is a lot to learn by looking at how people are actually riding the Noah Fast 3.0 in real life, but those bikes are pretty rare outside of situations where you see riders sponsored by Ridley.

But the bigger issue is that even with the Ridley existing, it's still mostly a novel and niche concept. On the average 30-person group ride, 0-1 persons are thinking about this. In my experience, that one person is either a serious crit racer or a high-level triathlete.

XMCS could have been part of creating that conversation, but it would also have been a lot of work and required a significant marketing budget. Probably not the best place to start for a small brand looking to build its rep, but would have been BOLD AF. Unfortunately, bold doesn't = $$$.

Is there any similarity in the tri-bike adjacent geometry to this concept from around 1991?

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1293665-road-test-bike-review-1991-clark-kent-ax-1-alexi-grewal.html

toxin

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2025, 03:13:57 PM »
I wasn't even talking just about geometry, that's just my biggest personal pain point. From a commercial POV, these designs are just not something that's going to set you apart aesthetically in 2025(6), they look like "just another bike" to me.

Winspace was pretty much a pioneer, even if they were just selling rebranded open mould frames. They were the first brand out of china that came out with a decent marketing push and more affordable prices (compared to mainstream) at a decent quality level. Tavelo came a bit later, but there was still enough room in the space and, crucially they had Joe and Panda Podium behind them and they were sponsoring a lot of local riders with bikes. Quick Pro came relatively late and the AR:One was a bit of a standout by weight, but they were pushed hard by Joe and again, were on Panda Podium from the start and are a name sponsor for a pro team (I've heard they will be sponsoring Euskaltel next year, but that's rumour). Are XMCS ready to to go to such lengths? There are also other emerging Chinese brands that have already shown standout prototypes. The space is getting really saturated with competition now. I wouldn't count on the methods that worked for Winspace to work now, unless they get REALLY aggressive with pricing.

So to catch up from scratch you either need a huge marketing push or something that sets you apart. We'll have to wait for the pricing, because if there will be a marketing push, the money for that has to come from somewhere.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2025, 03:51:21 PM by toxin »


Pistonbroke

Re: XM Carbon Speed Race Frame - The wish list
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2025, 04:12:34 PM »
 Peter, I'm hoping you find all this constructive in some crazy way :o :P :)