Author Topic: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames  (Read 8493 times)

Smokemachine

  • Guest
Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2025, 02:22:25 PM »
I admire your ambition but I'm not confident about your scraping-based note taking system if you're missing the crucial facts (let alone the subjective pros and cons) of a frame like the LTK266-D-SL even now. @sazikashi has been regularly updating the original post in that thread, for instance, and it has all the information a website like yours should need. Even now you are mixing up the bb standards! BB86 is not T47. The biggest pro of the frame is the price-quality ratio and the WEIGHT which makes it the leader in its class. Cons might be aero-related for many buyers. Weight on hands? Irrelevant.

Im not sure this site is ready to be made public given the major errors for even just one recent open mould frame. If you're doing this for yourself that's great. But you did admit a lack of knowledge about bike buying and building that makes it hard for you to judge your own errors of commision and omission.

You're on to something with this database idea overall, and I like the design principles, but a quick glance based on my own knowledge of a particular frame suggests it's now more of a misinfo source than something 'opening up the black box' of china frames.

My suggestion is that for now the public facing site should be a list of popular frames, paired with industry-suppllied spec sheets, with links to their respective factory pages as well as their respective chinertown discussion threads. You should not editorialize from those threads: instead, prospective buyers should be encouraged to follow the link to read the thread themselves. It doesnt take so much time, and buying a frame is a major purchase decision anyways. Good luck with this project.

I appreciate the feedback, though you seem to be extrapolating from one frame you know well to dismiss the initiative. The site launched yesterday. Errors are being identified and fixed. If you find specific problems beyond the LTK266-D-SL, I'm grateful for feedback and I'll fix those too. But dismissing everything because of correctable mistakes or glitches this early is premature.

On the errors/typos: The BB standard typo is my fault - I can see how I originally logged it in my google spreadsheet as BB86, but it's been corrected today. Calling it wrong "even now" is misleading when the site has been public for less than 24 hours. The LTK266-D-SL entry was admittedly more rushed than others (I abandoned researching it early due to lack of large sizes for my own needs, though I did PM with Sakizashi to bounce some various impressions). These are fixable issues.

On your suggestion: Feel free to glance over the "index" page - it's pretty much what you're suggesting. Maybe you missed it? It lists frames I've followed with some high-level specs like BB type, build/mould method etc. I believe the table should be 95% correct (5% safety buffer inserted  ;D). If someone wants to read hundreds of posts, they can (and probably should do when finalizing their shortlist!). The added value comes from consolidating patterns - my notes fast-track key observations. Adding too many floods the page, adding none...meh (I tried that...). Yes, I made mistakes on the 266-D-SL. That doesn't invalidate the approach.

On iterative development: Maybe you're unfamiliar with this concept, but it's a rather accepted way of working - continuous improvement based on feedback. Much like manufacturers featured here improve their frames over time. Here are two short summaries: https://entrepreneurship.hbs.edu/Documents/Session%20Summary/HBSRockMVPDevelopment.pdf and https://versions.com/topics/iterative-design/

"Rapid prototyping is a core part of iterative design. It emphasizes building just enough to test a hypothesis, not perfecting every detail from the start… Their value isn't in polish, but in speed to feedback. A rough idea, placed in front of users, can reveal more than a week of internal debate." (source: Versions.com link above)

Smokemachine

  • Guest
Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2025, 02:36:30 PM »
Thnx, love the work you (must have) punt in. Unfortunatly I'm not able to reach the site now. Getting a 'page not found'. Hope you're not discouraged by the slightly negative comments :)

Thanks for checking it out - hopefully it'll load now in case you have a moment to try again. I did some updates and took it down for a while as I was swapping code. Would love to hear your feedback.

Re comments, this is not open heart surgery after all. It's an iterative process, and all feedback is helpful. Some input just motivates me to improve the initiative further. It's obviously not going to be perfect (ever), but definitely not 24h after launch. Hence the Who Is America reference I made before - some people will just never be convinced. If one person finds it helpful, I'm happy.

Sakizashi

Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2025, 02:49:16 PM »
On your suggestion: Feel free to glance over the "index" page - it's pretty much what you're suggesting. Maybe you missed it? It lists frames I've followed with some high-level specs like BB type, build/mould method etc. I believe the table should be 95% correct (5% safety buffer inserted  ;D). If someone wants to read hundreds of posts, they can (and probably should do when finalizing their shortlist!). The added value comes from consolidating patterns - my notes fast-track key observations. Adding too many floods the page, adding none...meh (I tried that...). Yes, I made mistakes on the 266-D-SL. That doesn't invalidate the approach.
ack. A rough idea, placed in front of users, can reveal more than a week of internal debate."[/i] (source: Versions.com link above)

There is a need for what you are trying to make, so the goal is good, but the current product you've released does nothing to validate your approach. Rather, it suggests that you are consolidating the wrong patterns, prioritizing the wrong information to summarize, and using a method that leads to the omission of important information.

Tijoe

Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2025, 03:02:22 PM »
I wasn't going to comment, but now I am.

Your work on this list will end up being short lived.  The information you generate will be quickly sucked into the realm of the internet and IA processing such as ChatGPT.   I used to make Excel spreadsheets / lists of frames and components  trying to determine what frame would best fit my needs.   More and more, I just have ChatGTP do the general research and then fine tune it.   I input the frame brand, name, and ask about its geometry and available specifications.  Then I ask it to go to "bike Insights" to find all of the other frames with almost the same geometry.  One can quickly refine questions and get great results.  (For Chinese frames, many of the details are taken from Chinertown and thread postings concerning specific frames.

There is another recent thread about making a frame list where the OP uses ChatGTP to help him make his list.
ChatGTP can and does search through all of the public sites gleaning information about what you ask.   It is a whole new world...

I am torn about letting AI tools do the work, versus the pleasure/satisfaction I used to like doing research on "bicycles"   OTOH, I am getting into the last 1/3 of my life, and I'de rather be riding than researching bike frames/parts, therefore ChatGTP has been very enabling to me.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2025, 03:03:54 PM by Tijoe »

klrdd

Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2025, 03:21:05 PM »
I appreciate the feedback, though you seem to be extrapolating from one frame you know well to dismiss the initiative. The site launched yesterday. Errors are being identified and fixed. If you find specific problems beyond the LTK266-D-SL, I'm grateful for feedback and I'll fix those too. But dismissing everything because of correctable mistakes or glitches this early is premature.

On the errors/typos: The BB standard typo is my fault - I can see how I originally logged it in my google spreadsheet as BB86, but it's been corrected today. Calling it wrong "even now" is misleading when the site has been public for less than 24 hours. The LTK266-D-SL entry was admittedly more rushed than others (I abandoned researching it early due to lack of large sizes for my own needs, though I did PM with Sakizashi to bounce some various impressions). These are fixable issues.

On your suggestion: Feel free to glance over the "index" page - it's pretty much what you're suggesting. Maybe you missed it? It lists frames I've followed with some high-level specs like BB type, build/mould method etc. I believe the table should be 95% correct (5% safety buffer inserted  ;D). If someone wants to read hundreds of posts, they can (and probably should do when finalizing their shortlist!). The added value comes from consolidating patterns - my notes fast-track key observations. Adding too many floods the page, adding none...meh (I tried that...). Yes, I made mistakes on the 266-D-SL. That doesn't invalidate the approach.

On iterative development: Maybe you're unfamiliar with this concept, but it's a rather accepted way of working - continuous improvement based on feedback. Much like manufacturers featured here improve their frames over time. Here are two short summaries: https://entrepreneurship.hbs.edu/Documents/Session%20Summary/HBSRockMVPDevelopment.pdf and https://versions.com/topics/iterative-design/

"Rapid prototyping is a core part of iterative design. It emphasizes building just enough to test a hypothesis, not perfecting every detail from the start… Their value isn't in polish, but in speed to feedback. A rough idea, placed in front of users, can reveal more than a week of internal debate." (source: Versions.com link above)

1) I made pretty clear that I was using the one frame thread I knew by heart as an example--so yeah, definitely and purposefully extrapolating. But what I found was terribly wanting. Incorrect or beside the point. It didn't bode well for the other information aggregation. I wouldn't say I'm dismissing everything, by any means. I like the concept.

2) No need for the pedantry on iterative development. The problem is not with any of the mechanics of the site itself--the engineering part--but rather with your human-all-too-human curation process and the faults therein. YOU are the one doing the identification of pros/cons, what is important/unimportant to buyers, and so on. It's not the coding/development of the website that is lacking. It's in another kind of expertise, of which a more patient approach to compiling documentation, personal anecdotes, and experiential knowledge from the threads would be the guarantor of a quality, public-facing compendium of our hard-won collective knowledge and expertise.

Not dismissing this at all -- it's really cool and the site is slick. But making it trustworthy is going to require a more careful approach, in my opinion. Keep at it.

Smokemachine

  • Guest
Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2025, 03:38:00 PM »
I wasn't going to comment, but now I am.

Your work on this list will end up being short lived.  The information you generate will be quickly sucked into the realm of the internet and IA processing such as ChatGPT.   I used to make Excel spreadsheets / lists of frames and components  trying to determine what frame would best fit my needs.   More and more, I just have ChatGTP do the general research and then fine tune it.   I input the frame brand, name, and ask about its geometry and available specifications.  Then I ask it to go to "bike Insights" to find all of the other frames with almost the same geometry.  One can quickly refine questions and get great results.  (For Chinese frames, many of the details are taken from Chinertown and thread postings concerning specific frames.

There is another recent thread about making a frame list where the OP uses ChatGTP to help him make his list.
ChatGTP can and does search through all of the public sites gleaning information about what you ask.   It is a whole new world...

I am torn about letting AI tools do the work, versus the pleasure/satisfaction I used to like doing research on "bicycles"   OTOH, I am getting into the last 1/3 of my life, and I'de rather be riding than researching bike frames/parts, therefore ChatGTP has been very enabling to me.

Very interesting reflections, thanks for sharing. There's always a personal trade-off to be made and I think you seem to be prioritizing your time well by focusing on riding your bike!

In terms of AI, some of the models might also end up being short lived. Here's a fitting article, if you see beyond the SEO layer, it becomes evident that these limitations will restrict various AI models significantly - they just won't reach far enough and Google is the internet. Enter Gemini.
https://www.webpronews.com/googles-10-result-limit-disrupts-seo-tracking-tools-and-inflates-costs/

Merry

Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2025, 03:39:40 PM »
I like this concept. I just have two requests:

1) Would you be able to create a category for disc and rim brakes? Yes, I know pretty much every frame today are running discs, but I just enjoy rim brakes for no particular reason lol.

2) Would you be able to make it community run? Like Wikipedia on how users can edit pages, maybe you could make it community-ran like here. That way, the information presented is more accurate and ideally, contributed by first hand accounts. To prevent trolls, maybe you could give editing permissions to specific users that request for it?

Smokemachine

  • Guest
Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2025, 03:47:08 PM »
I like this concept. I just have two requests:

1) Would you be able to create a category for disc and rim brakes? Yes, I know pretty much every frame today are running discs, but I just enjoy rim brakes for no particular reason lol.

2) Would you be able to make it community run? Like Wikipedia on how users can edit pages, maybe you could make it community-ran like here. That way, the information presented is more accurate and ideally, contributed by first hand accounts. To prevent trolls, maybe you could give editing permissions to specific users that request for it?

Cool feedback, thanks for sharing.

1) Of course it would be possible, and frankly quite simple for me to do under the "index" table. Very few rim brake builds featured on here (more on Weight Weenies), but there's lots of them amongst various suppliers (example: https://www.ltbikes.com/index/products/index/cid/18.html)

2) Yes, that is an idea. Could be done similarly to how the contests here are run (like the recent Tideace frame), meaning a contributor would need for example a minimum number of posts, time on the forum or whatever is a reasonable denominator. Votes could be done by means of "liking" their contribution. I am completely open minded  :)

If you, or anyone would like to share a particular feature or even make a blog post i'd be happy to publish it.

Smokemachine

  • Guest
Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2025, 03:59:17 PM »
1) I made pretty clear that I was using the one frame thread I knew by heart as an example--so yeah, definitely and purposefully extrapolating. But what I found was terribly wanting. Incorrect or beside the point. It didn't bode well for the other information aggregation. I wouldn't say I'm dismissing everything, by any means. I like the concept.

2) No need for the pedantry on iterative development. The problem is not with any of the mechanics of the site itself--the engineering part--but rather with your human-all-too-human curation process and the faults therein. YOU are the one doing the identification of pros/cons, what is important/unimportant to buyers, and so on. It's not the coding/development of the website that is lacking. It's in another kind of expertise, of which a more patient approach to compiling documentation, personal anecdotes, and experiential knowledge from the threads would be the guarantor of a quality, public-facing compendium of our hard-won collective knowledge and expertise.

Not dismissing this at all -- it's really cool and the site is slick. But making it trustworthy is going to require a more careful approach, in my opinion. Keep at it.

I read your points with great interest and am sure some improvements can be made, but this will also never become a work on par with Robert Caro and the site won’t satisfy your needs, that’s OK.
Re iterative development, the concept extends beyond code, by which I mean that content can be amended (documentation, personal anecdotes and the experiential knowledge you have in mind). Some of the comments are illustrative but will never be exhaustive or the best representation of absolute pros/cons to everyone. I’ve aimed for some (sometimes trending ones) to trigger thoughts  like “ah, I’ll need to consider possible headset issues with this frame, let’s dig into that before I make my order”.

Tijoe

Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2025, 04:23:01 PM »
This makes me begin to wonder if one of the "greater minds" on this forum should start a thread on how to research Chinese bicycle frame/ parts using AI tools.   If we all band together, we could create a standard SOP that we agree on to compile a frame and/or component database.   

One example I learned 5-6 months ago was this generic Google search method/syntax;   

site:chinertown.com "your search terms here"

(Since Chinertown's search feature is limited, I have used this many times to go back and research postings on Chinertown.)

I have not found Google's top ten limitation as being a hindrance in my recent searches.

Here is an example of what I will search out:   I will open several new windows to search on 2 different frames, say Carbonda or Speeder
In each window I will type a specific website search

site:chinertown.com geometry compare Carbonda 505 vs 707
site:forums.mtbr.com geometry compare Carbonda 505 vs 707
Site:  (weightweenies)
Site: (Reddit)
Site: (Pinkbike)
(you get the gist)

I look at the results on each page to see what forum specific results get displayed.

Then I will do similar searches for price, quality, and other things on my mind about the frame/s.

When I get a general feel for what I am researching and a general perspective, I will write up a more specific query to ChatGTP asking it to provide me with specific information, or details where the response ends up being generally very informational.   
I am aware that garbage-in often means garbage-out, so I end up on a "learning curve" iterating with additional questions in order to get back information I am willing to believe, or can confirm as good data. 

-I have found that when I do initial research using the Google search engine, ChatGTP will pull from all the sites I visited at what appears to be a higher priority versus, it doing its own "from scratch"  search.



« Last Edit: October 13, 2025, 04:24:52 PM by Tijoe »

Tijoe

Re: Bike Frame Index - My database on Chinese carbon frames
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2025, 04:33:45 PM »
One other piece of a "bike ranking/rating"  list is that many of the complaints or compliments regarding a certain frame manufacturer/model is based on an individual's forum posting, and most often, there is not data provided to substantiate the claim, so to me it becomes an "opinion" and not fact based.

Perhaps, if we actually go down a frame/component rabbit hole, we create a thread that lists specific problems  in a format, that our forum members detail  the specific problem, and its solution/resolution.   This list will grow over time, and an AI tool could read and evaluate this list, and populate the frame/component database.