Author Topic: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset  (Read 41730 times)

toxin

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2025, 12:14:37 PM »
So why is it that it worked for them, and not the other independent mechanics and why do they not want to release any video to prove them wrong? Frankly I don't buy their excuse of not wanting to encourage improper use.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2025, 03:06:24 PM by toxin »

cyruscycles

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2025, 12:17:30 PM »
magene's report has been translated to english here:

https://imgur.com/a/magene-qed-braking-test-report-ynboGn7
ig: @cyruscycles

toxin

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2025, 12:31:14 PM »
That's great and all, but it only addresses the situation which led to the accident, not the problems that were found independently after the fact.

Sakizashi

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2025, 12:39:43 PM »
I have absolutely no stake in this, so this comment is purely academic.

Magene’s report basically says *we tried to replicate this and we couldn’t* and also *we looked through our reports on manufacturing quality and saw no potential issues that would cause this*.

Their conclusion though that therefore this must be user error is far from airtight, though it’s possible. If for legal reasons, the cyclist wants to ensure his groupset can be used as evidence in a lawsuit/ some sort off regulatory action; Magene should be inspecting the test units from those independent mechanics to understand what they are doing that led to the replication of this issue. This could still be a manufacturing quality issue or a design issue there envelope for the correct specs was made too wide and parts that meet spec when assembled together don’t always perform as expected.

This also could be widespread user error. We have seen it before with the Sram FDs: its very possible to publish detailed videos, make specific setup tools and still have large numbers of users and mechanics fail to set things up properly because they are on autopilot and doing what they are used to for Shimano. However, I also think that that issue *should* have been more aggressively addressed by Sram and given this on brakes should also be aggressively addressed here too.

Tijoe

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2025, 01:41:20 PM »
From my perspective...   If I was Magene, the first thing I would have done is go back to my Engineers and take a look at the brake system design.  I would double and triple check that the basic design is mathematically sound, and has a built in "performance safety factors".  Then I would take a look at all of the machined parts tolerance studies versus actual machined parts QA reports and perform a quick machined parts tolerance stack to determine if there is any combination of assembled parts that could be put together that would cause a 1 in XXX failure rate.  Then I would look at how the brakes have to be bled versus how the "average mechanic of hobbyist" would bleed the brakes.  (What effect do small bubbles, or air intrusion have on the function of the design.)   Can air bubbles accumulate or migrate to a place in the system that will reduce performance or cause a massive failure.   I would also look at thermodynamic tests and what effect heat has on the brakes. Thermal cycling versus brake fade and what happens under long continuous heat loaded braking.   

With all of this information/data in hand and understood, I would then defend my product accordingly.    My public response would be based on my internal findings.
If my ducks are all in a row, then I would take one approach, versus if I discovered that my product was lacking in an area, I might take another approach/response.   If they have cut corners somewhere in the part quality and machined part tolerances such that there is a 1 in (some tolerable to them failure rate), then I might be more arrogant in my defense of the design and blame the user, while I tighten up QA of the assembled system and quietly fix the very small problem,  versus if I discover I have a substantial problem on my hands , a different approach may be used.

cyruscycles

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2025, 04:42:04 PM »
Coming from MTB, there might be parallels to the tinkering solution called "Shigura" which describes Shimano brake levers paired with Magura calipers. The problem is that the calipers need much more oil volume than the shimano ones (and compounding that, Magura has 2.0mm brake rotors compared Shimano's 1.8mm), so the reservoir in the levers is too small. So if you use a Shimano rotor and the brake pads (or/and disc) are worn, you are getting to the point that you can no longer build up pressure, because you run out of oil. The tinkerers running this combo normally are aware of this and often bleed the brake at like half-pad-wear (actually overfilling the brake - resetting it like this would pop the reservoir) to not run out of braking juice. So yes, too small a reservoir can lead to brake failure.

That said, I agree that both brakes failing at the same time is still strange. It might be that one brake stopped working properly, leading to the rider compensating and overusing the other one and actually boiling the liquid or destroying/glazing the pads. But that's pure speculation.

At any rate, any trustworthy company would launch a serious investigation after something like this happened. On the other hand, in days of social media and viral stories destroying companies/lives with little regard for truth, I can somewhat understand Magene's "official" reaction to not react in any way that could construed as an admission of guilt. If this happened with Shimano and Sram groupset, they wouldn't react with "Yeah, might be our fault". How long did it take Shimano to admit their cranks were falling apart? I would expect that internally, they are looking into this really carefully, but maybe I'm just naive.  Time will tell.

I suspect they didn't actually fail at the same time. The rear likely failed first and the user didn't realize it as they likely used both levers when braking and the front brake is what you primarily feel and focus on modulating to avoid going over the handlebars.

The excuse Magene gave for not allowing Luke to show the video of the backing plates grabbing the rotor doesn't make a lot of sense. No judge is going to find Magene financially liable for a crash with pads worn down to the backing plates. Demonstrating a basic last ditch safety feature that exists on every other hydraulic braking system wouldn't change that, and would reassure us that if we're negligent, their brakes will warn us and do what they can to bail us out.

Additionally, not publishing the fluid volume(and brake line length) in the system doesn't instill confidence. How bad was the brake bleed? I've done a subpar brake bleed before which resulted in a bit of a spongy shimano lever. Would that bleed have taken out my brakes on the QED groupset? If the measured volume of oil was egregiously low, nobody would worry, knowing they could follow the Park Tools tutorial reasonably well. If this piece of information were published, we could also replicate the issue ourselves and be sure of the cause.

As it stands, it's still possible that this user

1) Picked some lightweight rotors that the brakes should be able to handle
2) Picked some official magene resin brake pads
3) Wore down said pads to a reasonable level for a hydraulic brake system to be able to handle
4) Performed an imperfect but not egregious bleed job.

If that's possibly the cause for totally losing your brakes flying down a mountain, I'll stick to my Shimano brakes. I like my resin pads, and if my LBS leaves a few bubbles in my lines I don't want my brakes to go out the before I even wear off the pad material.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2025, 11:24:21 AM by cyruscycles »
ig: @cyruscycles

70Herald

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2025, 04:58:21 AM »


Magene tried pads worn to the backing plate on a different QED groupset with a proper bleed, and the brakes worked

I would REALLY like to know what their protocol for this test was.... If they put worn out (or partially worn out) pads on and THEN did the bleed.. no question the brakes should work --- because they compensated for the additional fluid needed.

From what I understand from the information released by "independent mechanics" (and the same method Luke tried on the systems he had) the protocol was Bleed with normal pads, replace with worn out pads and then see if the brakes work.   Since probably most users are very unlikely to bleed their brakes on any sort of regular basis this would be a far more realistic test.

By the way as a word of background I am a mechanical engineer... I have been an engineer in failure analysis (semiconductors so admittedly a bit different) for the last 20 years....  have restored an antique car (1970 Triumph),  do all my own brake work (cars / bikes etc) ..


stepahin

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2025, 07:13:34 AM »
Besides this brake issue which has not recurred for anyone else, what are the opinions and news about Magene QED? Which would you choose among Magene / L-Twoo eRX eR9 / Wheeltop EDS-TX ? Or 105 Di2?

I watched a couple of videos on bilibili with ai translation and it looks really good.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1vAs2zPErV/
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ZcjJz3EpA/

Tijoe

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2025, 05:52:32 PM »
Besides this brake issue which has not recurred for anyone else, what are the opinions and news about Magene QED? Which would you choose among Magene / L-Twoo eRX eR9 / Wheeltop EDS-TX ? Or 105 Di2?

I watched a couple of videos on bilibili with ai translation and it looks really good.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1vAs2zPErV/
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ZcjJz3EpA/
I am invested in Wheeltop EDS systems in that I own 4 sets installed on bikes, one used set off the bike, and a second brand new set of TX series with hydraulic brakes.  Posted in the EDS TX thread is the "close-as-it-comes" account of my original EDS TX hydraulic levers both locking up at the same time heading into a corner at luckily lower speeds in a pack, such that as I pulled on the levers, they froze/locked up and did not push fluid down to the calipers.  I was able to get to the side of the other riders, go off the shoulder of the road, all the while pumping/forcefully pulling on the levers, then pop, they started working.  This happened again a second time to both levers and at higher speed on a corner. They started working again just before I could have crashed.  The third time only one lever locked up.  I purchased a new set of TX levers from XZX Components.  I installed them, and the RH lever wouldn't shift correctly, so Jerry replaced this lever.   After replacing the original pair of levers, the brakes have worked perfectly for thousands of miles.   The bad levers have been sitting in a box for the past year+.   

I am  having almost constant issues with my IIIPro E4 MTB brakes I started purchasing 3+ years ago. (Another thread on this forum.)  I see parallel problems to what happened with my IIIPro brakes, and the OP, except I have been lucky and have only had one brake fail at a time.   

I have gradually been studying, measuring and examining my failed IIIPro brakes.  I listened again to the video posted in this thread.  Based on my growing experience with my problem brakes,  I believe that in the next month or so, I will have a Q&A spreadsheet put together that could help with some post-forensic study of the OP's original failure.   

Every time I suffer another problem with my rear IIIPro brake,  I believe I have resolved the problem, but then the brake fails again in a short period of time.   I want to blame these brakes basic design, but then in theory,  bicycle hydraulic brakes are actually a very simple design.  Hydraulic brakes have been around since the 1920s for cars and the 1970s for motorcycles.  Bicycle hydraulic brakes are scaled down motorcycle brakes.

So I ask myself, what is the differences between Shimano, SRAM, HOPE Tech versus contemporary Chinese based designs.  To me, it ain't rocket science!

cyruscycles

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2025, 12:37:21 AM »
So I ask myself, what is the differences between Shimano, SRAM, HOPE Tech versus contemporary Chinese based designs.  To me, it ain't rocket science!

Hydraulic brakes are indeed relatively simple systems. Established Western brands have huge legal exposure and reputation risk if a brake fails, so they tend to over-engineer, over-test, and simplify wherever possible. Every design decision passes through layers of QA, failure analysis, and compliance testing before release. That sort of caution slows innovation but also removes a lot of unknowns

Chinese brands don't have the same incentives. There's less material liability in China, and there's significant cultural differences between the west and east. You begin to pick up on it as you develop relationships with OEMs and brands. You could sum it up as China having an engineering heavy culture, whereas the west has a litigation heavy culture. Working as a western engineer, every team I've been on has naturally developed a culture of speaking your mind and playing things safe. There's nearly as much clout in stopping something for good reason than creating something

Ultimately this is a broad generalization, and China regularly releases great products, but I think it's an important answer to your question
ig: @cyruscycles

gribs

Re: Better hold off on the Magene QED electronic groupset
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2025, 07:11:27 AM »
So I ask myself, what is the differences between Shimano, SRAM, HOPE Tech versus contemporary Chinese based designs.  To me, it ain't rocket science!

You say that but for mtb brakes Shimano have the wandering bit point problem and their callipers seem prone to leaks. For SRAM the code brakes have problems with the plastic part in the master cylinder swelling so the brake stops working.