Author Topic: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?  (Read 7021 times)

offspring_fan

Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« on: November 20, 2025, 04:23:31 AM »
I know there's some serious expertise on this forum, so hoping the hivemind can help me out.

I'm about to order a set of new wheels for my incoming Fauxtor.

I'm light-mid weight (68kg) but will probably go with a T800 rim given the shocking roads round me - I've cracked a rear rim before.

I'm tempted by the DFS R2 hubs given they look so purdy, but the H-Works gravel hub in silver looks like a good option too.

Anyway - my question - straight or sinusoidal rim profile? I'm convinced by the science for wavy rims (such as I can understand it at least), but have read it's not been well executed in open mould rims so far.

I don't mind weight trade off for extra aero gains, and I'm on the fence about looks. Wheels will be raced in crits, gran fondos and sprint triathlons, as well as being used for summer training.

Thank you.



« Last Edit: November 20, 2025, 04:57:01 AM by offspring_fan »

Sander2177

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2025, 05:54:59 AM »
Ok Armchair experts anyway  ;D
You really don’t see wavy rims in the WorldTour apart from Ineos running Princetons, and that says a lot.
If the aero gains were as big as the marketing claims, every pro team would be using them. Most of the fastest wheels tested are still traditional profiles—maybe with dimples like Zipp or Scope but there so much BS now what do you actually believe!

I prefer the clean look and proven performance of straight rims. That’s not to say I’ll never try wavy, but for now I’m happy with my switch from black to silver hubs—small change, big satisfaction.
But if you like the look juts buy them and enjoy them mate!

jfcb

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2025, 06:46:57 AM »
I agree with Sander.
The biggest potential benefit is crosswind stability. Sharing my personal experience, up to 45mm I never experienced issues riding with in heavy crosswinds with normal rims. So something to consider is also how deep you want to go with your rims.
The aerodynamic claims of those rims are, as with every claim in the bicycle industry, questionable and wether the chinese manufactures apply the wave principle right is an unkown.

If you like the looks of it, go for it since the weight trade-off is marginal. If you don't have any prefference, use normal rims. This will increase the available options on the market.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2025, 11:41:37 AM by jfcb »

Gus

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2025, 08:28:29 AM »
I have 38mm straight basic elite wheels on a carbon road bike and 50mm wavy light bicycle turbo 50's on a titanium endurance bike. Crosswind stability definitely better on the wavy turbo 50's despite them being deeper wheels.

With that said, too many variables to say it's from the waves. The entire rim profile is different; they are on different bikes that have different geometries and different weights. I can't swap them to test on the same bike because one bike has a shimano groupset and the other is XDR. So apples to oranges.

offspring_fan

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2025, 08:29:24 AM »
Thanks - I'm on the fence looks wise. Some bikes they look great, some they look overly fussy.

And INEOS riding them is definitely an argument against too ;) .

My TT has a disc wheel/deep ish front and I'm used to riding that in a bit of wind, so straight rims are starting to sound like the answer.

SirBikealot

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2025, 09:01:51 AM »
As someone who lives in area where wind is our substitute for mountains which are non existent in a 350km radius, waivy rims are a nobrainer, at least for me.
Maybe strait ones are a tiny bit more aero but all i had before i got my waivy ones a lot more prone to cross winds.
So for me waivy when windy, otherwise what ever you like the most

Sakizashi

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2025, 09:05:27 AM »
I would go straight. The waves are supposed to manage flow detachment and thus help with cross-wind stability, but I think that there are better solutions out there now, both in terms of rim shapes that work better, but more importantly, tires (i.e., the Continental 111) that are likely to give you more flexibility and speed.

The other thing to consider is that many of the wavy rims (LBs twisted profile an exception) need to be used a 24h hub so that the peaks of the waves each have a spoke on them. As someone who has loved their THR Industries R3 hubs from DFS, I would 100% get them again and would pick the R2 over H Works. It's a nicer hub in terms of designed features, though I doubt you would find either lacking, as the prematurely worn bearings on H Works hubs seem to be a thing of the past.

Scott902

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2025, 09:38:24 AM »
I really like the look, and happy I ordered them. Stands out a bit without being over the top.
-
Domane SL6 G4

dsveddy

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2025, 10:50:35 PM »
I honestly think the wavy rims are a net aero loss. The Princeton 6050 Evolution wheels didn't do particularly well in the 2024 CyclingNews aero wheel test (link: https://www.datawrapper.de/_/n786I/) especially at high wind angles.

My explanation for this is that while the undulations are meant to shed airflow to promote stability, they are bad for drag since airflow shedding/detachment means more of the surface is generating more turbulence across a wider range of wind angles. In other words, wavy rims are designed to deliberately stall the aerofoil unless wind is head-on to reduce side force in cross winds, but this comes at the expense of drag--or at the very least doesn't reduce drag in any way.  Marketing materials for wavy rims seem to implicitly admit this. For example, Zipp's blurb on the NSW wheels states: "[the rim shape] simultaneously reduces both aerodynamic drag and side force"--they're really careful to not directly state that the sawtooth profile reduces drag at high wind angles, only claiming that it reduces drag and side force.

My read on this is that stability vs low cda is something of a zero-sum game. Just as an airplane wing generates lift (a lifting force on a horizontally oriented aerofoil) your rim is a vertically oriented aerofoil that efficiently generates side-force when it hits wind at an angle; the better your wheels are at keeping airflow attached, the more side-force they generate before the aerofoil stalls, and when they do, that side-force you were counteracting to keep your handlebars straight suddenly disappears. Conversely wavy rims stall the aerofoil at wind angles where you aren't counteracting so much side force, so the wheel feels stable, but theoretically this costs drag.

I believe wavy rims are a bad solution to the stability problem. The design introduces a lot of parameters to be optimized (and to screw up)--not only aerodynamically but also from structural and production engineering standpoints. I also agree they look pretty kooky and gimmicky.

I think a better ideal is you find a rim profile that stalls more slowly and predictably (against the natural tendencies of air), and the marketing on pretty much every non-wavy rim these days says something suggesting that their wide/bulbous/toroidal/blunt/whatever shaped rim profile enhances stability in this manner. Under the assumption that I can't see aero and correctly identify what such a rim looks like, I think everyone is just better served running slightly shallower and wider rims if you want more stability.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2025, 10:56:17 PM by dsveddy »

hubba

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2025, 03:21:39 AM »
It's quite complicated LB testing showed reduced drag for their x-flow profile. And if you can run 10-20mm deeper wavy rims vs normal I'm sure they will be more aero. As we've seen in many materials smooth surface is not always the most aero one.

offspring_fan

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2025, 06:15:07 AM »
I honestly think the wavy rims are a net aero loss. The Princeton 6050 Evolution wheels didn't do particularly well in the 2024 CyclingNews aero wheel test (link: https://www.datawrapper.de/_/n786I/) especially at high wind angles.

Thanks for taking the time to write that, really helpful - and I wasn't aware of the CyclingNews testing.

dsveddy

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2025, 07:37:49 AM »
It's quite complicated LB testing showed reduced drag for their x-flow profile. And if you can run 10-20mm deeper wavy rims vs normal I'm sure they will be more aero. As we've seen in many materials smooth surface is not always the most aero one.

Do you have a link to the data?

As far as running deeper wheels, sure, but look at the chart I linked. The 6050s performed worse than nearly every 50mm rim in test at high wind angles. I think the original argument is that these bumps act as vortex generators that help keep airflow attached, but I’ve never actually seen a test demonstrate that by showing a wavy rim performing better than an equivalent non wavy rim at high yaw angles

hubba

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2025, 09:26:52 AM »
Just their own data, their wheels are different though to other wavy rims as the depth doesn't change. https://www.lightbicycle.com/newsletter/Introducing-Falcon-Pro-AR375--AR465.html
« Last Edit: November 21, 2025, 09:28:44 AM by hubba »

Sakizashi

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2025, 10:23:28 AM »
It's quite complicated LB testing showed reduced drag for their x-flow profile. And if you can run 10-20mm deeper wavy rims vs normal I'm sure they will be more aero. As we've seen in many materials smooth surface is not always the most aero one.

I've never seen testing done on those wheels, only CFD, and it was rim only. University students also did it as a sponsored class project, which is not good or bad, just context for why it was limited in scope.

My read on this is that stability vs low cda is something of a zero-sum game. Just as an airplane wing generates lift (a lifting force on a horizontally oriented aerofoil) your rim is a vertically oriented aerofoil that efficiently generates side-force when it hits wind at an angle; the better your wheels are at keeping airflow attached, the more side-force they generate before the aerofoil stalls, and when they do, that side-force you were counteracting to keep your handlebars straight suddenly disappears. Conversely wavy rims stall the aerofoil at wind angles where you aren't counteracting so much side force, so the wheel feels stable, but theoretically this costs drag.

I believe wavy rims are a bad solution to the stability problem. The design introduces a lot of parameters to be optimized (and to screw up)--not only aerodynamically but also from structural and production engineering standpoints. I also agree they look pretty kooky and gimmicky.

I think a better ideal is you find a rim profile that stalls more slowly and predictably (against the natural tendencies of air), and the marketing on pretty much every non-wavy rim these days says something suggesting that their wide/bulbous/toroidal/blunt/whatever shaped rim profile enhances stability in this manner. Under the assumption that I can't see aero and correctly identify what such a rim looks like, I think everyone is just better served running slightly shallower and wider rims if you want more stability.

Agree that the time for wavy rims as a "good" solution has passed.

I also agree with the framing of the trade-offs if we consider the shape of a rim in isolation. Rims exist as part of a wheel with tires on a bike, though. In that light, there is not a clear trade between stability and CDA.

For example, you can gain stability and lower CDA by tuning your rear wheel profile to be optimized for the lower yaws it will see. This is the same principle behind the observation that many TT and tri riders have that a rear disc wheel makes the system feel more stable when flow detaches from the front but stays attached in the rear. Following this principle has made the Enve SES wheels among the best for over a decade now (and the 4.5 design is nearly 10 years old now too!). This is the same concept Roval has also been using in their last few generations of wheels. Despite their latest rim profile being shallower in the rear, if you look carefully, they are still following this principle.

Another product that breaks this is the Aero 111 tire. Nearly every test finds that it makes less wind stable wheels more stable while also testing consistently faster in the tunnel, granted, faster in these cases is within the error of the individual tests. I think the reason this works has a lot to do with the top of the tire moving faster relative to the front as the wheel both rotates and moves translationally through the air. With some bikes, this effectively helps with poor aero areas around the fork crown, so it's doing more than you would see in a wheel-only analysis.

My armchair guidance if someone were to want to buy a steel spoked wheelset would be to get the DFS wheels on straight rims with the R2 hubs (since you cant get wavy rims for those hubs anyway). I would pick either their wide shoulder 50mm deep profile for the front or their 50mm deep CX profile (and match with the Aero 111 like I did), and then go for a UV shaped rear. You can see the writeup on my choices here: https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,6243.15.html I don't think it's outdated yet, and I believe the rim profiles I used are pretty similar to what CRW ended up using on their second-gen 5060

dsveddy

Re: Wheel nerds: please help me decide, straight or wavy rims?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2025, 11:18:58 AM »
I've never seen testing done on those wheels, only CFD, and it was rim only. University students also did it as a sponsored class project, which is not good or bad, just context for why it was limited in scope.

Agree that the time for wavy rims as a "good" solution has passed.

I also agree with the framing of the trade-offs if we consider the shape of a rim in isolation. Rims exist as part of a wheel with tires on a bike, though. In that light, there is not a clear trade between stability and CDA.

For example, you can gain stability and lower CDA by tuning your rear wheel profile to be optimized for the lower yaws it will see. This is the same principle behind the observation that many TT and tri riders have that a rear disc wheel makes the system feel more stable when flow detaches from the front but stays attached in the rear. Following this principle has made the Enve SES wheels among the best for over a decade now (and the 4.5 design is nearly 10 years old now too!). This is the same concept Roval has also been using in their last few generations of wheels. Despite their latest rim profile being shallower in the rear, if you look carefully, they are still following this principle.

Another product that breaks this is the Aero 111 tire. Nearly every test finds that it makes less wind stable wheels more stable while also testing consistently faster in the tunnel, granted, faster in these cases is within the error of the individual tests. I think the reason this works has a lot to do with the top of the tire moving faster relative to the front as the wheel both rotates and moves translationally through the air. With some bikes, this effectively helps with poor aero areas around the fork crown, so it's doing more than you would see in a wheel-only analysis.

My armchair guidance if someone were to want to buy a steel spoked wheelset would be to get the DFS wheels on straight rims with the R2 hubs (since you cant get wavy rims for those hubs anyway). I would pick either their wide shoulder 50mm deep profile for the front or their 50mm deep CX profile (and match with the Aero 111 like I did), and then go for a UV shaped rear. You can see the writeup on my choices here: https://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,6243.15.html I don't think it's outdated yet, and I believe the rim profiles I used are pretty similar to what CRW ended up using on their second-gen 5060

I agree 100%. I think a better phrasing of the trade-off would have been that "side-force vs low cda is something of a zero-sum game". Side-force is really a red-herring in the stability discussion, which I think is illustrated by the fact that Conti 111 tires make wheels feel more stable, despite all the data I've sheen showing they enhance airflow attachment, which means they will generate more peak side-force.

The actual threat to stability is a combination of high side-forces and how deterministic/chaotic airflow attachment/detachment is at the limit. I realized this many years ago riding a set of 404 firecrest tubulars in a crit, and feeling that at a very specific point in a corner transitioning from cross-wind to head-wind my front wheel would repeatedly get sucked into the headwind and then jerk away at seemingly random times. I later realized this was because at that point in the corner, the rim angle relative to the wind was at a critical point for airflow attachment, and that the state of airflow attachment was determined by chaotic dynamics.

This is why I said
Quote
I think a better ideal is you find a rim profile that stalls more slowly and predictably
--the wheel will feel stable despite a lot of side force as long as whether the airflow attachment is predictable, and especially if the stall characteristic is gradual, not sudden. If you really think about the word stable, it refers to not only the magnitude of change, but also its frequency and predicability.

My understanding is the Conti 111 improves the predicability and suddenness of the stall characteristic is because those little scoops are vortex generators that energize airflow (and help it stay attached longer over wider yaw angles), but with regards to stability these vortices are a more deterministic dynamical regime that stalls more predictably than in the absence of vortex generators.

In the end I really agree with your "armchair" guidance. A deeper rear wheel is also stiffer, which means you can run fewer spokes and have an equally strong wheel (I'm running a 21 spoke setup on my handbuilt deerobust wheels)