Author Topic: Light, reliable & aero benchmarked. DFS wheels w/THR R3 Hubs, long-term review  (Read 11936 times)

Sakizashi

I encourage folks to stop using depth alone as a proxy for how aero something is going to be. It's bullshit logic. The first-order aero variables should be frontal area reduction and flow attachment. Flow attachment depends on the shape (size and relative dimensions) and the surface. Depth is just one variable when thinking about shape, so it's a third-order variable. Yes, depth is influential when shape and rim width are relatively consistent, but assuming that is the case is no longer safe.

The reason we see a lot of wheel clusters in terms of performance isn't due to depth alone. Once you have achieved a laminar flow condition, the system's efficiency will not change significantly. The marginal gains from going from a 50mm wheel to a 60mm wheel should be similar to the performance envelope of most 50mm and 60mm wheels. Most data shows this, but people tend to overlook it because of how the charts are presented. What tends to be different is the yaw angle at which you see the flow transition from laminar to turbulent.

A good front wheel, IMO, needs to more effectively manage flow over a wider range of yaws while a good rear is more aerodynamically efficient across a smaller range. This isn't just about marginal aero gains. If the designers do their job right, they are also trying to manage the center of pressure of the system when the flow does detach, reducing the effect of the turbulent flows on the front end. I've looked at the new Rovals now and I think that the shape of the rear is designed for low yaw performance, and the reason it's not deeper is that accounting for the higher yaw angles the front sees, they don't care much about the flow once the front has detached. This is not significantly different from the logic used by Enve when examining the mismatch between front and rear in their SES range, and how they differ in both depth and shape. What is different is that Roval thinks their tradeoff, given the current trend in rim construction, will result in a lighter rear wheel than Enve's at a similar performance level.

Aside from closely matching the profiles, attempting to compose a reverse mullet from generic rim shapes is likely to be an unpleasant experience for most people.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2025, 08:22:29 AM by Sakizashi »

Dark17

Hello,

I might need some help for my decision on what spec of wheels to buy. I am already set on buying carbon spoke wheels from DFS then I read somewhere that cx rays performs better on aerodynamics than carbon spokes.is this true to some extent? I also buy from DFS and I hope someone can help me with my decision.

Sakizashi

I tried to do the math on this. I figured that steel spokes with internal nipples would be faster than the carbon spokes typically used, but by fractions of a watt to the point where I think for an allrounder wheelset, the tradeoff would be like the same number of steel spokes with internal nipples would be better if the overall system were less than 50g heavier, assuming like a marginally hilly route. The alternative should be to look for a carbon wheelset with ~20% fewer spokes than the steel-spoked wheels.

However, Scribe seems to have actually tested this, and the results are a lot more significant than I would have expected. https://www.scribecycling.com/en-us/blogs/journal/bladed-carbon-spokes-vs-aero-steel-spokes-which-is-faster. Worth noting that DFS did not offer the Alpine Hyperlight Aero, though I did ask a few times for it. The CXRay shouldn't be that different aero-wise.

If Scribe's test is correct, steel spokes with internal nipples are enough of a difference-maker to help branded wheelsets move from the middle of the pack to the top quartile, which might explain why they, Enve, and SwissSide have stuck with steel spokes with internal nipples.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2025, 11:17:22 PM by Sakizashi »

Dark17

The link you provided and also this site (https://wheellabkr.imweb.me/Blog) were my references on my decision to think about it all over again. I also tried to check if DFS offers Alpina but they don’t. However, Zen offers them but it’s significantly expensive though it’s still within my price range. The studies on wheelabkr shows that cx rays are still more aero than all types of carbon spokes that’s why I am now back to 0 again lol.

And one factor of my decision to go back to 0 is, no big brands such as enve, roval etc have gone to carbon spokes. They still use steel spokes on their flagship products rather than carbon spokes.

I am no expert in aerodynamics and picking the right spec for wheels are really hard compared to frames lol
« Last Edit: November 26, 2025, 12:12:32 AM by Dark17 »

toxin

The wheellab studies are a bit flawed, but the general idea behind them is solid. Caden also tested his newest lineup of wheels in a wind tunnel and the 21/24 steel spoke and internal nipple version was faster than the 16/18 carbon spoke version, with the same rim.

Dark17

Do you have a link or video regarding Caden’s studies? I’m curious if what’s the result with external nipples, but wheellabkr said that 50mm internal nipples and 55mm external nipples are just basically the same. Now I am thinking if I go 55/60 or stick with 50/55.

toxin

Didn't test steel spokes with external nipples though.

Sakizashi

The Caden report is here: https://carbonbikewheels.com.au/storage/sakuicms/img/250724_ACSA_WT_test_report_Caden_wheels_v2_final.pdf

My observations
  • Carbon spokes vs. steel spokes is not a difference to worry about in terms of aero
  • Hidden nipples are an advantage in CDA terms they are saying 0.0005, this is aligned with Wheellab
  • Hidden nipples vs. low spoke carbon count is very similar, to the point where I think you could expect similar performance between a 21/24 hidden nipple steel spoke wheel and a 16/18 low profile carbon spoke wheel
  • Low spoke counts help a lot when looking at the 21/21 vs. 16/18 tests
  • The Caden wheels are faster with a 30mm tire than a 28mm tire, but see a huge benefit Aero 111 29mm tire


Still happy with how I built up these wheels, except that I should have splurged on the RX hubs for CL instead of 6 bolt. The XMCS 16/18 hadn't been released yet, and I like these rim profiles better.

Hopefully, we see more THR hubs and DFS wheels on this forum soon mostly because I am curious to hear what others (besides Sanders) think.

Sander2177

The Caden report is here: https://carbonbikewheels.com.au/storage/sakuicms/img/250724_ACSA_WT_test_report_Caden_wheels_v2_final.pdf

My observations
  • Carbon spokes vs. steel spokes is not a difference to worry about in terms of aero
  • Hidden nipples are an advantage in CDA terms they are saying 0.0005, this is aligned with Wheellab
  • Hidden nipples vs. low spoke carbon count is very similar, to the point where I think you could expect similar performance between a 21/24 hidden nipple steel spoke wheel and a 16/18 low profile carbon spoke wheel
  • Low spoke counts help a lot when looking at the 21/21 vs. 16/18 tests
  • The Caden wheels are faster with a 30mm tire than a 28mm tire, but see a huge benefit Aero 111 29mm tire


Still happy with how I built up these wheels, except that I should have splurged on the RX hubs for CL instead of 6 bolt. The XMCS 16/18 hadn't been released yet, and I like these rim profiles better.

Hopefully, we see more THR hubs and DFS wheels on this forum soon mostly because I am curious to hear what others (besides Sanders) think.


😂
Well should be getting my set with R2 hub soon 😂

Looks like the RX hub has had a redesign for 2026 look good.
Will get some photos maybe others the colour not sure

Few peeps on FB have purchased with R2.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1A7pLWNiPM/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/17XfvcLy8R/?mibextid=wwXIfr

There are load more but people don’t post
DFS have go other profiles available if you ask.
Everyone is doing the same profiles

Dark17

I am decided with DFS now but I am unsure if i will get R1 or R2 hubs lol.

Sander2177

I am decided with DFS now but I am unsure if i will get R1 or R2 hubs lol.


What’s the difference between these two hubs?

Dark17

I think R1 is only for steel spokes while r2 can accommodate steel and carbon spokes. I chose steel spokes/sapim cx rays for my order. And R1 is just the price of h-works hub, so much cheaper than r2. But i am really interested in r2 hubs lol. I enve hubs got the same concept.