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Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: adriaanm on March 03, 2021, 02:02:57 PM

Title: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: adriaanm on March 03, 2021, 02:02:57 PM

I've built half a dozen wheels before with J-bend spokes and aluminum rims, but now I'm looking to expand my horizons with some novatec d411/412 straight pull hubs laced into speedsafe carbon rims (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32826616369.html).

(It's a budget build to shed some weight from my steel gravel bike 8) I'm planning to use Pillar 1423 PSR aero (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32914510465.html) spokes and sapim polyax nipples.)

I've been trying to find the dimensions for the hubs online to plug them into the dt swiss spoke calculator, but I can't find the hub's spoke hole offset. I ordered them and will measure myself using this nice guide (https://spokecalc.io/measuring-a-straight-pull-hub.html), but I figured I'd ask here already since this seems to be a pretty popular hub.

While I'm at it, any other pro-tips for building a wheelset like this (assuming I already know the basics)? Thanks!

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: carbonazza on March 04, 2021, 03:33:55 AM

Here are dimensions I remember copy/pasting few years ago from.
https://issuu.com/novatecwheels/docs/catalog_2017_novatec_hubs
Insure which 411/412 models you have.

D411CB
28 hole (also available with 24 hole)
OLD: 100mm
PCD 34mm
FTF 63.6mm
Offset: 3.2mmm

D412CB
28 hole (also available with 24 hole)
OLD: 142mm
PCD: 34/47mm
FTF: 68mm
Offset: 6.3mm

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: adriaanm on March 04, 2021, 04:13:08 AM

Thanks! Sorry, I should have mentioned I found those dimensions. Note that the offset in those specs is about the flange distance, not the spoke hole, which is probably somewhere between 0-2mm.

(I ordered the SB model, but I guess the hub shell material doesn't impact much. I do have 6-bolt and not centerlock, which may change things.)

This missing *spoke hole* offset dimension is key: this offset (Y in the image below) has a 1x impact on spoke length, as explained on https://spokecalc.io/measuring-a-straight-pull-hub.html

(https://spokecalc.io/img/articles/measuring-straight-pull-hubs/straight%20pull%20hub%20spoke%20offset.jpg)

I also just realized the lacing pattern is determined by the hub, and of course 2-cross versus 3-cross has a big impact on spoke length :-) From what I can see from prebuilt wheels around these hubs, it's 2-cross. The spoke crossing count is a bit confusing to me, especially because spoke holes are paired on straightpull.

I've reached out to the hub vendor, and will also contact Novatec. I'll be sure to keep the thread updated with all the specifics!

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: carbonazza on March 04, 2021, 04:30:27 AM

If I remember well, the offset was 0, hopefully you get a more reliable info.
It is 3 cross.

You may note I didn't actually cross the 3rd.
As a test, since I tension them by ear, the sound was cleaner.
And to see if it would impair the stability. Apparently not.

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: adriaanm on March 04, 2021, 07:56:15 AM

Thanks, that's super helpful!

I wonder if they've changed the lacing pattern over the years. Maybe I'm getting cross-eyed from staring at this image for too long, but this looks like 2-cross to me: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32824613259.html ??

Anyway, CSC was super helpful on chat. I assume they'll be able to tell me the spoke lengths.

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: carbonazza on March 04, 2021, 03:45:45 PM

Quote from: adriaanm on March 04, 2021, 07:56:15 AM

... Maybe I'm getting cross-eyed from staring at this image for too long, but this looks like 2-cross to me: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32824613259.html ??

I'll stop staring at it, as I see 2 cross too :D

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: adriaanm on March 05, 2021, 02:27:34 PM

I confirmed with novatec usa customer support that 2-cross lacing is required for these hubs.
The front hub has 0.5mm spoke hole offset, and 1.25mm for the rear hub.

For my 594mm ERD rim, I'm going to order 25 * 294mm and 25 * 296mm. I'll let you know how it goes :-)

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: adriaanm on March 16, 2021, 03:07:27 PM

By the way, I read the excellent https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php this weekend and it explains that a 24h hub *has* to be 2-cross (not counting radial ::)). I guess it's logical that the number of crosses you can do depends on the number of spokes. So, 24-hole hubs are 2-cross. 28-hole either 2 or 3.

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: carbonazza on March 16, 2021, 03:28:16 PM

Mine are the 28h.
As Roger Musson advise to store them, I found back my calculation sheet, it says... 2 cross and zero offset :o
However when I look at them today, as per the pictures here, I see 3 cross.
So, being able to build and still ride them hard 3 years later seems to be a kind of miracle ;D

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: adriaanm on April 15, 2021, 05:43:49 AM

The build went well! Only 0.5g over my target weight 8) (see attached pic -- no rim tape/valves yet)

I would say the straightpull hubs were easier to build with than a regular hub, but it took me a while to figure out the key spokes visually. After that, pretty smooth!

spoke calculation

left

right

pillar 1423 psr aero

354 g

SPOKES front

295.64 mm

294.95 mm

corrected for nipple, rounded up to even

296 mm

294 mm

CN brass nipple

12 mm

25 g

SPOKES rear

297.06 mm

294.36 mm

corrected for nipple

296 mm

294 mm

CN brass nipple

12 mm

25 g

hub specs

front

D411SB

flange diameter

F.T.F / flange to flange

63.6

OFFSET

3.2

flange to center

28.6

crosses

spoke hole offset

0.5

rear

D412SB

flange diameter

F.T.F / flange to flange

OFFSET

6.3

flange to center

40.3

27.7

crosses

http://chinertown.com/index.php/topic,3163.0.html

spoke hole offset

1.25

rim specs

Type

Hookless

ERD

594mm

Spoke Holes

24H

Outer Width

28mm

Inner width

22.7mm

Depth

22mm

Nipple Position

External Nipples

Weave

Finish

Matte

Weight

299±15g/pc

actual rims within spec (298g, 297g)

Max Weight Limit

90kg

Max Spoke Tension

180KGf

Max Tyre Pressure

55psi

price (incl shipping)

CHF491.25

1,377 g

HUB REAR

D412SB

QR, shimano

CHF90.00

243 g

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32759849226.html

HUB FRONT

D411SB

97 g

RIM rear

CHF303.00

298 g

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32826616369.html

https://www.wtb.com/pages/tire-rim-fit-chart

RIM front

297 g

spokes

pillar 1423 psr aero

48.00

25* 294mm, 25* 296mm; 14mm CN brass nipples (black)

CHF30.00

354 g

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32914510465.html?spm=2114.12010615.8148356.1.44a25a4fK9sJ1U

nipples

brass

incl

50 g

valves

have some

18 g

rim tape

23mm

CHF7.00

20 g

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000793547334.html

rotors

velosa

sram centerline-ish

160mm

CHF11.00

240 g

https://aliexpress.com/item/32833376738.html

tax & customs

CHF50.25

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: carbonazza on April 15, 2021, 04:01:22 PM

Congrats for the build!
I remember being a bit lost too, at the beginning.
With SAPIM spokes( and trough axles maybe ), they are a tad lighter.

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: TidyDinosaur on December 08, 2022, 04:00:30 AM

Since it is hard to find much info on spoke sizing for these hubs I thought I would pen down my experiences here:

I have built 2 wheelsets with these hubs. For the first one (I did last year) I calculated the length myself and the spokes where much too long. I checked with the seller on Ali where I had bought the rims (since they also offered entire wheelsets with those hubs and rims) and they gave me the spoke lengths and they were about 2 mm shorter I believe... Those worked...

A few days ago I have built the second wheelset with slightly deeper rims and spend hours researching and measuring and calculating. I measured the drawings of the hubs in autocad to get the dimensions and I found that the flange distance that is stated in the info I found is mostly way too big. I measured the flange distance from the inner row of spoke holes to the center. The flange distance is way smaller than. Working with these measurements I ordered the spokes with a little fear in my heart, but they seem to be spot on.

For my 581 ERD sized asymmetric 30x30mm rims with 2,8mm offset (3mm larger than stated to account for the nipple head. I measured this myself with 2 spokes and the spoke threaded in the nipple flush with the slot in the head) I used 288mm spokes for the front and 286 and 288mm spokes for the rear.

Title: Re: building wheel with straight pull hub: d411/412 spoke hole offset?
Post by: Pedaldancer on April 22, 2023, 04:09:24 AM

Quote from: TidyDinosaur on December 08, 2022, 04:00:30 AM

Since it is hard to find much info on spoke sizing for these hubs I thought I would pen down my experiences here:

I have built 2 wheelsets with these hubs. For the first one (I did last year) I calculated the length myself and the spokes where much too long. I checked with the seller on Ali where I had bought the rims (since they also offered entire wheelsets with those hubs and rims) and they gave me the spoke lengths and they were about 2 mm shorter I believe... Those worked...

A few days ago I have built the second wheelset with slightly deeper rims and spend hours researching and measuring and calculating. I measured the drawings of the hubs in autocad to get the dimensions and I found that the flange distance that is stated in the info I found is mostly way too big. I measured the flange distance from the inner row of spoke holes to the center. The flange distance is way smaller than. Working with these measurements I ordered the spokes with a little fear in my heart, but they seem to be spot on.

For my 581 ERD sized asymmetric 30x30mm rims with 2,8mm offset (3mm larger than stated to account for the nipple head. I measured this myself with 2 spokes and the spoke threaded in the nipple flush with the slot in the head) I used 288mm spokes for the front and 286 and 288mm spokes for the rear.

I agree!
The values for flange to center of hub are somehow very weird to large and dangling around in the www.

for the front D411 hub i also checked the drawing and I got:
(WL = Center of left flange to center of hub, and WR : Center of right flange to center of hub)
WL : 23,1 WR : 29,7

THe D412 takes me (after hours of graphical comparison, since there are dimensions missing in the drawings)

WL: 31,2 WR 17,5

When I put these values in the Spokomat and the Spoke offsets 0,5mm for D411 and 1,25 for D412 I end up in the length values , that has been recommended to me from lightbicycle for two sets of wheels (AR36 and AR28)
I have the 24H hubs, so the lacing is 2 cross. With the flange values , that are dangling around in www my spoke calculation gets way to long values.. hope this information can help others.