Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: Takiyaki on September 11, 2023, 12:02:33 PM
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Looking around it seems like some mainstream brands have got pretty aggressive with pricing, almost to the point that they're comparable with open mold builds. I feel like a mid grade open mold build (i.e. not the dirt cheapest parts, but not top tier brands either) is about $2000-2500. Seems like there are a few carbon 105 disc bikes from brands like Giant for that much
Obviously the mainstream stuff isn't as custom.... for example I would pay a little bit extra for 38cm bars and lighter wheels..... but then you do get a higher level of customer service and warranty over the whole bike
Has the shift in prices swayed anyone at all?
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You can build open mold frame with carbon wheels and Force AXS for around 2500-2700€. Haven't seen anything remotely close in value in EU. If you go with cheaper groupset (i.e. Ltwoo or Sensah hydraulic and chinese cranks) then you can stay under 2000€ mark.
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Open mold rim brake frame plus Ltwoo/Sensah shifters killer app would be dedicated direct drive training bikes for Zwift or similar programs-carbon solves most of the corrosion problems, no issues with tire clearance, little to no safety concerns from frame breakage, no brakes needed, and any random old, not even true front wheel could prop up the front.
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I don't see myself buying a mainstream brand frameset, because I'm not a bleed hard cyclist. I don't care for brand legacy, I don't watch or participate in cycling as a sport and I'm neither a crit bro/gravel hipster. I build my bikes to meet my performance needs and price point. All I care about is becoming stronger and going from point A to point B faster than the last time. Bikes are just exercise and transportation for me.
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I don't see myself buying a mainstream brand frameset, because I'm not a bleed hard cyclist. I don't care for brand legacy, I don't watch or participate in cycling as a sport and I'm neither a crit bro/gravel hipster. I build my bikes to meet my performance needs and price point. All I care about is becoming stronger and going from point A to point B faster than the last time. Bikes are just exercise and transportation for me.
Wouldn’t you be better off by buying a $500 décathlon bike then?
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I think it all depends on the “look” you are going for and how much you want to plan to spend on all things that aren’t the frame. It would depend on the total build cost. If you’re looking for a “budget” build around the 2-3k mark then open mold would probably be the way to go and get a nice bike. If you’re planning to spend 5k+ on a bike, I would rather get a specialized/cervelo frameset and build it up. Another scenario to look at is if you’re someone that sells your bike after a couple years then you could resell a bike with shimano/specialized parts for way more then open mold / Ltwoo. Yes you may spend a bit more on the western brand after reselling both but probably not by that much.
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I think it all depends on the “look” you are going for and how much you want to plan to spend on all things that aren’t the frame. It would depend on the total build cost. If you’re looking for a “budget” build around the 2-3k mark then open mold would probably be the way to go and get a nice bike. If you’re planning to spend 5k+ on a bike, I would rather get a specialized/cervelo frameset and build it up. Another scenario to look at is if you’re someone that sells your bike after a couple years then you could resell a bike with shimano/specialized parts for way more then open mold / Ltwoo. Yes you may spend a bit more on the western brand after reselling both but probably not by that much.
The resale is kind of what prompted me thinking about this. I want to sell my current build to start my next one. It has some really nice components (some DA9000 stuff, Quarq PM), but I feel like I'm gonna have to basically price it as the sum of the components with the frameset for free to get it to move. A name brand bike of the same spec would cost more upfront but def have higher resale. So it kind of feels like a false economy unless you plan to buy and hold.
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Here is my analysis...
Point #1 - Of all the frames I've ridden and tested, only 4 have performed flawlessly and free of any quirks. From the build process to long term on the road: Yoeleo R12, Winspace T1500, and two Specialized Allez Sprints. While I don't believe having a UCI sticker is the absolute marker for quality, it's also not a coincidence these 4 frames have them. Build quality, details and functionality matters at this price point.
Point #2 - Neither a UCI sticker nor offering a unique frame design is an indicator of a frame's performance. Yishun R086D and VeloBuild VB-177 are great frames despite more or less being open mold designs. What I've learned with cheap frames is if the specs/design of a frameset looks too good to be true...it probably is. TanTan x38 (Scott Foil clone) and VB-168 (SL7 clone) were sluggish for me personally.
Point #3 - Buying experience. Having the only two flagship Specialized shop outside of California 20 minutes from my home, you can tangibly see why they are so popular. The shopping experience is like going to a premium car dealership. Might as well be for a $5500 SL8 frame. Trek's flagship shops are horrible. Never buying from them again. With Specialized you're not just buying a bike. You buying into the local community, you have a home base for local rides/coffee, and you're dealing with managers/sales reps/mechanics who are also cyclists themselves. I cannot overstate how important this is for the 95% of cyclists in the real world who don't spend time on YouTube/forums geeking out over Chinese brands like myself.
Point #4 - My online presence is such that I'd rather not be a walking billboard for expensive brands. I'm trying to be aspirational to the fitness but budget minded shopper. Although I really want to buy a Giant Propel or S-Works SL8 next season to see if the hype is real. I cant keep testing cheap frame forever.
Obviously I'm probably not the average cyclist. Swapping new bikes/frames constantly is painful. However, I've grown tired of regularly dealing with the quirks and customer service annoyances of the cheaper/open mold frames. No matter how many "Chinese" bikes I've tested, I always go back to my Winspace T1500.
Which brings me to Point #5 - The only thing holding me back from buying the Propel/SL8 today is that we starting to see more Chinese competitors to Winspace/Yoeleo in the $1500-$2000 range coming to the marketplace for the Western world. To me this is where the best value to performance ratio can be found. UCI-Approved, limited licensed frame design, fantastic paint details, competitive frame weight, and quality supplied hardware. I'm currently in talks to acquire a frame from one of these new brands 8)
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If I only have the money then I would just buy a Time bike and just ride with it until I see a new frame that I really like. But, I don't have the money so I would just get some quality Chiner frames and wheelset. I am really thankful to this forum as it opened up my eyes regarding "botique" brands that are just rebranded Chinese open mold frames. If not for this forum I would just buy another Storck frame which is just a rebranded Pardus. Pretty sure that they get their frames from a manufacturer in China and I would really like to know what their frame is
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I feel there is still a big gap in pricing between mainstream and open mold.
I can build a bike with 105 mechanical with a 1.3kg wheelset for less than 2000 USD. Good luck finding that with mainstream brands.
What I really appreciate as well is the customization: you can just chose your favorite color and paint, add a logo for frame and wheels, which you would never get otherwise, unless you pay a hefty price for mainstream.
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Wouldn’t you be better off by buying a $500 décathlon bike then?
That $500 bike is a $150-200 bike marked up. I just want a minimalist bike equipped for what I ride, which is climb and descend several times a week. I don't really nitpick the details. I crash it, who cares. I'll salvage the components and build something else.
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At least in the US, there's always the option of getting a part time bike shop job for "bro" deals-40% off brand name retail pricing used to be pretty typical, and sometimes there are ridiculous closeout details, like back in '99 when Trek was blowing out Lemond 753 steel framesets for $135 to shop employees.
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I will soon be doing 90% of my miles on 2 custom Ti bikes. Not because I love Ti but because the geometries I wanted were not available at the time either designed or commissioned them and custom carbon seemed prohibitively expensive at the time.
The big western brands like Specialized and Trek are a step ahead in terms of the combination of high end construction methods and open molds dont seem to do any aero development. However a geometry that helps me get into the position I want is going to be more important than the aero gains from the frame assuming reasonable good construction. Therefore I am willing to cast a wide net.
Right now, the Trek Domane RSL is the off the shelf bike that is closest to the geometry I would want. A bike that had that kind of lower trail geometry with a long and low position + clearance for a 34mm-35mm tires would instantly be on my shopping list regardless of the name on the side (or not) if it was of reasonable quality. UCI approved would be nice too.
I should add that since the Domane RSL in my size (52) is sold out if my Ti Road bike disappeared today, the Elilee Blize with a -20 deg drop stem and some 3d printing magic would most likely be tbe bike i would build. Though an SL8 with their -12, 110mm stem would get me close, the look of that bike with the tarmac stem and the "speedsniffer" is horrendous.
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I honestly think the best option is to go with a mainstream second hand frameset and then build it up with your own "chinese" components.
Anyone that is going for whole bike builds is a super fred at this point since I would have to immediately replace the bars/stems (44cm lmao) and cranks (175mm lmao).
I also have a lot of wheels already so the wheels/tyres that come with it would go sitting in the corner.
If it comes with a powermeter i'd have to sell it since i already have powermeter.
The saddle is also useless since it won't be my preferred saddle.
At that point i bought a whole bike and only using the frame and the groupset.
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The UCI accreditation doesn’t really make a difference in terms of the safety standard or the inherent quality that the manufacturers need to adhere to. It’s more about whether the frame meets all the design rules that the UCI has if you want to race UCI sanctioned events. The reason that small manufacturers don’t do it is because it obviously costs money for not much in return. You can find the protocol here: https://archive.uci.org/docs/default-source/equipment/approval-protocol-eng.pdf?sfvrsn=c07e81c6_20
If you want to sell bike parts in the EU and most other parts of the world, these components need to meet the requirements of the ISO4210 test protocol. These are impact and fatigue tests that manufacturers often show in videos. But even that doesn’t say much. In the end, a consistent QC and a reliable warranty and customer service make all the difference IMO.
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I honestly think the best option is to go with a mainstream second hand frameset and then build it up with your own "chinese" components.
Anyone that is going for whole bike builds is a super fred at this point since I would have to immediately replace the bars/stems (44cm lmao) and cranks (175mm lmao).
I also have a lot of wheels already so the wheels/tyres that come with it would go sitting in the corner.
If it comes with a powermeter i'd have to sell it since i already have powermeter.
The saddle is also useless since it won't be my preferred saddle.
At that point i bought a whole bike and only using the frame and the groupset.
This post illustrates an interesting point in that what is 'good value' changes with local market conditions.
Whether an open mould bike can be good value depends on what you're looking to get from it, and how that compares to local alternatives, particularly second-hand.
Here in Australia, ever since Shimano and SRAM prevented international retailers from selling their products into Australia, it's been much harder to get cheap groupsets. I first built a Chinese bike in 2014 and was able to get a great deal on the new (at the time) Shimano 105 5800 which I was able to import from the UK. There's been many reports of cheap closeout SRAM Force eTAP AXS D1 groupsets going cheaply in the EU and USA, but no such deals in Australia. Being unable to take advantage of this makes buying a Chinese frame relatively less appealing, since by the time I buy a groupset and wheels, I'm not so far off the price of a big-brand bike.
Rim brake bikes have also plummeted in price second-hand here - there'd be no point getting one from China any more. Late-model high end rim brake frames, particularly if they're not at the top level of desirability (for example, a Giant TCR, Focus Izalco Max or Merida Scultura) cost less than a new Chinese frame.
If L-Twoo and Sensah make some good groupsets then it could swing the balance in favour of Chinese parts again. I'd be interested in doing a Hygge/L-Twoo/Elite Wheels/Magene PES build to sneak in a carbon disc integrated bar frame, electronic groupset, power meter and high-end wheels for ~$2300 USD, but it feels like a pretty big risk to take.
There's still plenty of good use for me for Chinese products - particularly getting kit for fairly standard rim-brake bikes. Being able to get a good quality carbon seatpost, saddle and bars costs a ton with western brands, AliExpress is now full of great products on that front.
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Yeah location is definitely key. In Canada prices are crazy for bikes still. A new mechanical 105 carbon TCR with aluminum wheels is 3800cad. Even Canyons and other DTC we have to pay a bunch extra from HST and duty sometimes. The used market is even more crazy than new, decade old carbon 105 rim brake bikes for 1.5kcad is normal. Sometimes you can find good deals for older bikes. But if you want modern carbon frame + carbon wheels there's really no competition here at all if you're comfortable building.
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Personally I'll never buy a Chiner frame above $800-900. There are right now at least 5 frames on FBMP, Craigslist, OfferUp and Pinkbike in my size by all the reputed brands made within last 2 to 5 years in carbon and alloy priced around $700-900 mark. And there are many more once you reach 1500 mark. I'll be okay if my frame doesn't have dropped chain stays and clearance for 32c tires on a road frame. If you are not married to carbon and disc brakes, Cannondale sells CAAD 13 frames in beautiful retro colors for $1k right from factory. You can build a caad within weight limits of a Chiner CF frame easily.
Buying used, as I found out is where the best deals are if you forego custom colors. If building a bike from frame up is not your thing, keep an eye out for Canyon and Ribble sales. Some of those deals really make you question the decision to buy Chiner frame and building it up.
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This post illustrates an interesting point in that what is 'good value' changes with local market conditions.
Whether an open mould bike can be good value depends on what you're looking to get from it, and how that compares to local alternatives, particularly second-hand.
Here in Australia, ....
Another Australian here, wanted to build a rim braked aero bike to race.
I ended up buying a second hand Giant Propel SL with Di2 and 55mm carbon wheels still on it's original chain, cheaper than open mold frame, good carbon wheels and decent groupset
For similar money could of bought a used Giant Propel SL disc frame, LTwoo eRX and less expensive Chinese carbon wheels.
As said it is a value for money proposition. I built a lightweight Velobuild/Dengfu FM066SL 10 years ago, it was cheapest way to get a stupidly light bike 6.6kg at the time.
Currently for me the value frames in AU is second hand high end frames eg Giant Propel SL, TCR SL and Scott Foil team edition seen recent good low mileage frames for under $1k AUD.
That said I will rebuild my FM066SL (ended up repurposed as TT bike) and see how light I can get it now
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I honestly think the best option is to go with a mainstream second hand frameset and then build it up with your own "chinese" components.
Anyone that is going for whole bike builds is a super fred at this point since I would have to immediately replace the bars/stems (44cm lmao) and cranks (175mm lmao).
I also have a lot of wheels already so the wheels/tyres that come with it would go sitting in the corner.
If it comes with a powermeter i'd have to sell it since i already have powermeter.
The saddle is also useless since it won't be my preferred saddle.
At that point i bought a whole bike and only using the frame and the groupset.
You raise some good points. GC Performance recently did a YT video about how silly mainstream brands are with component sizing. If someone is paying thousands of dollars for a bike they should basically get a custom fit with it too IMO. Or at the minimum big brands should get with the times on stuff like bars and cranks. I just swapped my 42cm bars for 38cms and I like the change. More aero and I swear it feels like the reach has been shortened. I'm contemplating trying 36cm bars...
And unfortunately mainstream brands don't sell their low end frames alone. I think $1000-2000 big brand framesets would put a lot of pressure on open mold manufacturers.
On the flip side though there is still resale. Selling off all the parts you don't want can add up to a decent chunk of change, and then you are left with a name brand frame with the exact components you want. I dont know what to do
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Personally I'll never buy a Chiner frame above $800-900. There are right now at least 5 frames on FBMP, Craigslist, OfferUp and Pinkbike in my size by all the reputed brands made within last 2 to 5 years in carbon and alloy priced around $700-900 mark. And there are many more once you reach 1500 mark. I'll be okay if my frame doesn't have dropped chain stays and clearance for 32c tires on a road frame. If you are not married to carbon and disc brakes, Cannondale sells CAAD 13 frames in beautiful retro colors for $1k right from factory. You can build a caad within weight limits of a Chiner CF frame easily.
Buying used, as I found out is where the best deals are if you forego custom colors. If building a bike from frame up is not your thing, keep an eye out for Canyon and Ribble sales. Some of those deals really make you question the decision to buy Chiner frame and building it up.
Canyon sales are another thing that prompted this thread. Endurace CF7 prices are not far from a comparable Chiner build and they have some cool colors too.
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Canyon sales are another thing that prompted this thread. Endurace CF7 prices are not far from a comparable Chiner build and they have some cool colors too.
True, you just have to move fast to score popular sizes. Besides you can get real money back when you sell it for whatever reasons v/s peanuts you will get from selling a used Chiner frame.
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Regarding the UCI sticker. I think its a big deal because it means that the company is intending to spend the money because they believe their product is good enough to be raced and likely good enough to spend resources supporting a team at some level. From the consumer side, it signals to me that they are more likely to stand behind their brand and product.
UCI sticker means very little for safety, but I think many open molds frames that are looking to do sales through a small brand (not look alike copies / counterfeits) do provide testing certs from 3rd parties.
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The resale is kind of what prompted me thinking about this. I want to sell my current build to start my next one. It has some really nice components (some DA9000 stuff, Quarq PM), but I feel like I'm gonna have to basically price it as the sum of the components with the frameset for free to get it to move. A name brand bike of the same spec would cost more upfront but def have higher resale. So it kind of feels like a false economy unless you plan to buy and hold.
I have sold quite a few of my open mold frames. they actually sell reasonably well in my area. i am able to get 60-75% of the price i paid. people are getting more curious about the value proposition that open mold frames provide. i like to split up the frame and group set when i sell though. i find that people either want a name brand group set for what ever they are doing or they want an open mold frame to build their own thing.
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I have sold quite a few of my open mold frames. they actually sell reasonably well in my area. i am able to get 60-75% of the price i paid. people are getting more curious about the value proposition that open mold frames provide. i like to split up the frame and group set when i sell though. i find that people either want a name brand group set for what ever they are doing or they want an open mold frame to build their own thing.
I've found that if you part out a bike you can sell it for a lot more than if you were to sell it as a package.
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I think the real value of the open mold frames is if you want something unique that you can't get off the shelf. Frames from the mainstream brands are crazy expensive compared with the open mold ones, so open mold is a great value if you want to build up a frame. Custom paint jobs are another great selling point.
But I agree that it would be very hard to compete with Canyon on the price of a complete bike if they had something you wanted. (I went with one of their outlet Enduraces a few years ago and couldn't have built up a cheap frame for that.)
I think the open mold frames make more sense for gravel bikes because there can be more benefit to building up a bike exactly how you want it.
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An open mold frame is the cheapest option. My Vb R218 with Chiner wheels and a Record 2x12 groupset (partly used and partly new) cost me around 1.500 EUR. No chance in the world to find anything like that from any manufacturer.
Also, for me it’s not about whether these frames are as good as the more expensive ones. But I feel that for me they’re simply all the bike I’m ever going to need. I’m fast enough for the occasional KOM and/or decent race result in my area. Im coming from a Ridley brand name frame. But ever since I bought a steel rim brake frame from Planet X for 340 EUR and was quicker on it in many cases than I was on my way more expensive Carbon bike, I realised that there’s only so much difference a bike frame can make. And more money doesn’t always make for a better bike for a given person.
I’m pretty sure a 12k SWORKS is not going to make me that much faster. Im tempted to try one but all in all I’m satisfied with the riding experience I get from Chiner frames. My Ridley before really wasn’t that different.
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Canyon sales are another thing that prompted this thread. Endurace CF7 prices are not far from a comparable Chiner build and they have some cool colors too.
Yeah well, in Europe they do not offer anymore it paired with the 105di2 and etap. Only 105 mechanical. What a pity because I was really tempted given its <3000€ pricetag.
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I have an endurace cf7 with mech 105. Great bike. Going to replace it with a Yishun. If it's a mistake then, no probs, can try something else in future.
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I am really torn on what to do for my next build. I'm basically between an old CF7 105 or the Great Value version (VB-R-066). With the parts I want (38cm aero bars, WR45 wheelset) I feel like they come to about the same price (~$3000 though I could sell some stuff off the Canyon). I think I could get the Velobuild under 7kg and I would want a custom color for it (sparkly "British Racing" green). What would you do?
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What would you do?
Personally neither, but for you it depends:
If you are going to hold onto the bike for years and really want a personalised bike the Velobuild, it is different/unique.
If you are going to ride for a couple of years and then sell and replace: the CF7. The resale value of Chinese frames (with possibly the exception of WinSpace) is 0. Spent a lot of time looking for a 2nd hand rim braked bike. A couple of Chinese frame, Chinese carbon wheels, ultegra mech group set were not selling for 1000AUD. While mainstream brands Canyon, Giant etc same wheels and groupset were selling for 2000AUD.
I have already built a Velobuild and have Chinese carbon wheels and components on a lot of bikes. At the moment for me, the value was in buying a 2nd hand high end mainstream frame and building it how I wanted.
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I would like to hold on to this bike for a long time. I didn't really know what I was doing or looking for with my current build, so I figure that now that I do I can make a better long term decision. Part of the biggie for me is paint- I do want a bike that just looks good. So Im leaning towards a Chiner build. Though I may stick with big brand components.
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Part of the biggie for me is paint- I do want a bike that just looks good. So Im leaning towards a Chiner build. Though I may stick with big brand components.
If you want custom paint, a Chiner frame + paint is probably the cheapest option, unless you want to paint it yourself.
On the other hand, you can vinyl wrap any frame. Cost for this is 250AUD (bit more for custom), adds less than 100gram and can be removed
(https://nickobec.com/photos/nero.jpg)
Chris Miller's of Nero Cycling YouTube fame AeroRoad
https://www.kyso.com.au/collections/bunnyhop-full-wraps/products/nero-show-sydney-edition-full-wrap-kit (https://www.kyso.com.au/collections/bunnyhop-full-wraps/products/nero-show-sydney-edition-full-wrap-kit)
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A couple of Chinese frame, Chinese carbon wheels, ultegra mech group set were not selling for 1000AUD. While mainstream brands Canyon, Giant etc same wheels and groupset were selling for 2000AUD.
Good point. Chinese frames are throwaways when it comes to resale value.