Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: patliean1 on January 25, 2024, 04:12:15 PM
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I’m going to be honest here: I very much miss the glory days of this forum during the pandemic years. It was a perfect storm. People were stuck at home with extra discretionary income and free-time, while major bike brands were dealing with fulfillment delays. The rise of Chinese alternatives during this time brought so much excitement to this forum. Forum members were passionate about helping each other, and the overall vibe felt like a positive community of budget-minded enthusiasts. You could easily spend hours each day reading pages upon pages of new posts. The forum was basically a party everyday. I’m lucky to have joined during COVID.
Now I don’t proclaim to be perfect or infallible to constructive criticism. Quite frankly, the support of this forum is a large reason why my YouTube platform even exists. I cannot thank you all enough. Sadly, a lot of the super experienced members don’t come here as often anymore. Perhaps the negative vibes these past 12 months ran them away or just simply their needs changed. Who knows…
What I do know is I plan to keep supporting the forum as long as it makes sense. I’ve started to review more mainstream bikes, but my heart will always have a place for affordable Chinese frames/wheels. It’s how I got my start (Yoeleo R6).
I wanted to write up a quick guide for anyone looking to jump into the world of “cheap” Chinese bikes. While I made a video on this very topic over a year ago, a reminder never hurt anyone.
PLEASE feel free to add your insight and guidance below.
Step 1: Passion Project vs Functionality
As a cycling reviewer, I obviously don’t have any emotional attachments to my bikes. Except for my believed T1500. To me it’s about being functional and fast. If the “best” frame for (my) price range and riding style only offers matte black…I’ll take it every time. Custom paint means nothing to me if the frame is either a noodle or destroys my back. But I’m a performance-first person.
Step 2: Riding Style and Geometry
Can you slam your stem? Cool for you. Do you prefer an endurance style bike? Also very cool. Geometry is critical obviously. I cannot stress seeking a professional bike fit enough. Or just comparing your current bike to your target bikes using something like Geometry Geeks.
Step 3: Budget vs “True” Budget
If your budget is “only $600” for a frame, ask yourself if an extra $300 will be significant to you a year from now. How about an extra $500? How about two years from now? Buy nice or buy twice. Might be worth spending the extra money if you plan to keep your bike for longer than two years. But be warned: cheap bikes are addicting.
Step 4: What is your “pain” threshold for cheap bikes?
Cheap bikes are cheap bikes for a reason. Sort of. The value-add for these types of bikes is you are willing to put in the work yourself to troubleshoot, should bike build problems arise. If you do however find yourself frustrated, fear not! The forum is here to help. Typically the more you spend, the less potential for problems to arise. Or the brand will be faster to rectify. Unless you’re Yoeleo… :-X
Patty’s Brand Picks
$500 - VeloBuild - Custom paint, decent customer service, and solid provided hardware. Both the VB-177 and CX002 are very solid frames for the price. Won’t be the best performing frames ever, but they are “good enough.” You won’t get dropped from a race or fast group ride due to these frames.
$1000 or less - Yishun/Light Carbon - No question one of the best affordable brands/frames you can buy without spending money on a Winspace. Sadly…paint options and frame availability may be questionable since (Yishun) is setup for B2B. But the quality and performance is all there. Fit and finish is really good, except for the plastic headset dust cover on my particular application.
$1600 or less - Winspace - The T1500 has been talked about to death now for 4 years so there really isn’t anything left to cover. If you have the budget for it…buy it. Proven race bike. Fit and finish on par with the major brands.
Wheel Brand Recognition - Elite Wheels, Winspace, and Magene - All 3 brands are great at what they do.
The main thing these brands all have in common is they offer solid customer service. Each of them secretly lurk these forums, which means they are making an effort to listen to what customers want. Despite the fact Yoeleo makes solid bikes too, their customer service has been awful (again) based on customer feedback sent my way. Unfortunately my dealings with these brands for reviews does not translate to me being able to escalate customer complaints.
Always remember the forum is here to help. There are no stupid questions if you’ve taken a little bit of time to research previous threads and watch a few YouTube videos. The more honest and transparent we all are with our questions, the quicker and meaningful the responses will come. Spend the love!
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I'd at least add LightBicycle there for wheels
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I'd at least add LightBicycle there for wheels
Agree.
I think if you go into nearly any bike shop in a major US metro that has a wheel building person, they will know Light Bicycle at least as a rim supplier. A lot of them will have worked on rims from them via other wheelbuilders who are relatively transparent about their sourcing (like November, NOBL, etc) or built them for themselves. I doubt they would know Winspace, Elite, or Magene.
Step 3: Budget vs “True” Budget
If your budget is “only $600” for a frame, ask yourself if an extra $300 will be significant to you a year from now. How about an extra $500? How about two years from now? Buy nice or buy twice. Might be worth spending the extra money if you plan to keep your bike for longer than two years. But be warned: cheap bikes are addicting.
I think saving money up front on a lower cost frame / group ends up actually being less significant in the total build cost of the bike than people think. Also problems and headaches around headsets, metal parts, cable routing, water killing groupsets, cables fraying, indexing etc. end up costing a lot of money to trouble shoot. Reconciling your quest for knowledge with your overall tolerance for nonsense and your total budget is worth it. Utility is a real thing too. A bike that sits, probably has less value to you than a bike you ride
Step 2: Riding Style and Geometry
Can you slam your stem? Cool for you. Do you prefer an endurance style bike? Also very cool. Geometry is critical obviously. I cannot stress seeking a professional bike fit enough. Or just comparing your current bike to your target bikes using something like Geometry Geeks.
I will add that while stack and reach are great to look at fit the other parts of the geometry chart matter too. Looking popular youtubers, Neil Stanbury of RCA fits a rider very differently Bike Fit James of Cade Media. I wont opine too much on who i think is right vs. not, but there is more to getting a great bike than just fit and there is likely more than one fit that can work really well for you. Forcing a specific frame to an extreme using stems bars, extra spacers, etc. will likely end up with you being unhappy with the bike. Geometries arent randomly generated sets of numbers. In most cases, even for open molds, the engineer has benchmarked other bikes, considered fit data, modeled the handling of these bikes and then determined the numbers making tradeoffs to within their design / budget constraints.
If you look at a recommended size chart and you see yourself going up or down by 2 or 3 sizes or need to add more spacers than the bike comes with: your fit is wrong or the engineers designing the frame didn't do a good job and don't understand how people fit on bikes. In any of those cases, you should probably not buy that frame.
If you can't find a better fitting frame and you are truly a statistical anomaly, its probably time to look into a custom bike.
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I've been purchasing items off of Aliexpress since 2011. For the first several years, many of the bicycle parts I purchased were questionable at best, - quality and durability. It appears to me that when Interbike died, 2018, the bicycle parts being sold through Aliexpress started to become a lot higher quality, lighter and higher end. I started shifting more and more of my part purchases to Aliexpress, and/or Alibaba.
I joined Chinertown over a year ago. Discovered it via a reference someone made in another forum. I've been a member in 6 other forums for many years. My interest in all of them has dropped significantly. Chinertown is where I spend most of my "forum" time these days.
Every forum I am a member of has ended up losing its appeal over time. Trolls, too many off topic distractions, the same old topics over and over. Too many ads. (Verticalscope owned forums.)
So far I enjoy the members on this forum. Most stay on topic and contribute. I learn something new here every day...
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Re the dust cover... Did yours have a huge gap between it and the frame? Like 3mm or something?
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Great post Pat!
I think the rougher economic times on top of the world situation have led to a lot of people putting cycling aside.
I would be interested in your personal top 10 of frames if you wouldn't mind sharing something like that and include your mainstream brand frames too!
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Great post Pat!
I think the rougher economic times on top of the world situation have led to a lot of people putting cycling aside.
I would be interested in your personal top 10 of frames if you wouldn't mind sharing something like that and include your mainstream brand frames too!
10. VeloBuild VB-168
9. Dengfu R12 (harshest on the list)
8. TanTan X38
7. VeloBuild VB-177
6. Yoeleo R12
5. 2022 Allez Sprint (most versatile)
4. Yishun R086-D
3. Tavelo Attack (lightest frameset)
2. Giant Propel Advanced Pro
1. Winspace T1500 (best value)
Notes:
-The Dengfu R12 is SUPER stiff. Stiffer than the 168, 177, X38, and R12. Perfect if responsiveness is important to you. However, even with 28c tires it’s tough to live with everyday. Although I've done 160km rides on it LoL. Dengfu discontinued it I think.
-I’m planning to rebuild my X38 this season. Originally I had to donor the SRAM eTap groupset for my Yishun build. It’s a great looking frame, stands out among other Chinese builds. Makes for a good coffee ride bike, but it could not be my only road bike option. I just found the overall ride dynamics to be neutral and somewhat clumsy, even after initially thinking it was a super stiff ride. YMMV.
-Had I bought my Tavelo Attack before my Giant Propel…I probably would not have bought the Propel. The Tavelo offers 9/10 the dynamics of the Propel for half the price. However, the extra 10% is still noticeable. Having the support of a local bike shop/Giant dealer and essentially a “no questions asked” warranty policy has come in handy for me.
-The biggest disappointment has been both the VB-168 and the Yoeleo R12. The 168 (my particular frame) is a noodle. But the geometry works so well for me. Yoeleo advertises the R12 has a race bike. It is not. Big brand quality paint, 32-34c tire clearance, and great fit and finish. Packaging is some of the best in the biz, better than Giant and Specialized. But it truly is an endurance bike. For the price of the R12 you could almost buy a Yishun/LC frame and a set of wheels from Leon/Yuanan which is a far more compelling offering.
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Good thing about the 168 is everyone and their mom has an SL7 clone. Looks wise at least I'm kind of partial to the TFSA version (I forget the model #)
Velobuild seems to be a mixed bag; they seem to be questionable quality wise. I'm torn between a VB-R-066 & Elves Eglath for my next build. Elves seems like a great "Goldilocks" brand- better quality & customer service than something like Velobuild or Dengfu, but not dangerously close to mainstream brands in price like Winspace. I'd probably add ICAN to that list as well.
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I got into this back in 2022, so probably after pandemic but effects of pandemic were still on with regards to insane used bike and components prices. That has now cooled down and name brand frames are much cheaper than they were a while ago. Sentiments on forum reflect that. Also true with groupsets as used, foolproof Shimano groups are available at great prices instantly reducing value prop of Chiner groups. I know I would have pulled trigger on LTwoo if situation remained as dire as back in 2021-22.
As for getting Chiner frameset though, I just did it again - Yoeleo R12. It's sitting pretty as I gather parts. In the meantime the VB GF002 is going strong and I have no complaints. There were hiccups of course and as a first time builder this forum helped me a LOT. There were pretty fantastic replies with regards to VB's headset play including Patty your own thread on it, so thank you for that. I know VB is ranked pretty low but I wouldn't hesitate to go with them again. All said and done, for 700 odd bucks I think I landed a phenomenal frame, including not bad colorway. Main reason going with VB was this forum and helpful people (at least back then).
If you don't mind, can you curate your top 10 list to only include Chiner frames?
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Why do you choose for Velobuild and not for TanTan for $500 frames? TanTan is a real manufacturer as I saw in one of your videos right? While Velobuild looks more like a reseller, isn't it?
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Just remove #2 and #5 from the list and the rest are chinese brand frames.
One thing that I think about a lot is sourcing of spares and universal components. I am pretty good with CAD and familiar with both metal and the commercial scale 3d printing that use engineering grade plastics so making little odds and ends to fix things like seat post binders and headsets don't scare me that much, but there are some criteria i consider non negotiable on that front.
1. Use of 52mm headset bearings. For internal routing that means 52mm x 40mm nominal headset bearings. I know I can source the 49mm ones Specialized and Cervelo use and even the 42mm ID ones Canyon loves, but realistically, I also want to be able to get high quality C rings and great bearings and not have to mix and match proprietary nonsense.
2. Removable FD hangers. I want to be able to fix these in the case there is a quality issue. Also remove them and print a cover for 1x.
3. UDH. Not because of Transmission compatibility but because it solves a real problem re: sourcing of quality hangers which makes a huge difference in how much time a bike spends on my stand getting the shifting dialed in.
4. Thru Axles. If its got proprietary or hard to find thru axles its a deal breaker. Mavic speed release isnt quite a deal breaker since they are readily available, but its close.
Things I don't care about for bikes usually mentioned on this forum.
1. Aero tube shapes / Rim shapes. Unless the brand shows that they bothered with, at the least, CFD in their development process and then doing benchmarking in a WT, i dont care. Aero tubes without aero development are just a guess, particularly if they deviate from the general NACA profiles.
2. What grade carbon they use. It is really T1000 for Toray or a T1000 like material? Does it matter? How would any of us know? I'd rather see a weight vs. deflection chart
3. Bundled bars. Honestly, most of these look like an afterthought and to point 1 if they arent developed together with the frame are you getting the full benefit? What about fit? Most of these are very wide compared against current trends. Besides I am going to chose one of these frames because I dont want to buy a prebundled setup from a big manufacturer.
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Why do you choose for Velobuild and not for TanTan for $500 frames? TanTan is a real manufacturer as I saw in one of your videos right? While Velobuild looks more like a reseller, isn't it?
Communication and the website looked better. Sent mail to TanTan and crickets. Sent mail to VB and Chris responded in an hour, pretty much every communication after that was fast (and I had quite a few). 6 months after I bought the frame, new C ring was shipped immediately after I sent mail. I have no complaints and I accept certain DIY hacks that you have to do with those frames. Back to TanTan, I think it was Rita who did respond after a few days but by then I had already made up my mind. There was a funny discussion here a while ago how VB probably has many customer reps who all just go under one umbrella name - Chris. He is everywhere, floating that company almost singlehandedly!
Oh and its not mentioned here but I must say, Carbonda's communication is really good too. Their overall process looks more professional like the drawings, colors etc. Carbonda/Flybike 696 frame's reviews sort of bolstered my confidence in Chiner frames.
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Some interesting info on frames on this site. I have more experience on the rim side of things having build a lot of them for myself and friends over the last decade. I think generally a rim is a lot less complicated and much easier to produce an acceptable product. Likely why there are dang many pop up companies out there the last 4-5 years. Carbon wheels used to be extremely expensive from the big names, but competition from one offs has really driven them lower.
I would even venture to say a number of the one offs have surpassed big names offerings. Winspace, etc have reset expectations for what $1200 can buy.
The Winspace frame does look nice but they are approaching big brand prices with some of their newer offerings at $2000. Unless you have components already I think we're getting into that range of some lower spec big brands and we're starting to see discounting again at the retail level.
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Several years ago, I had numerous conversations with manufacturers via Alibaba regarding Carbon rims. From my perspective, carbon rim manufacturing in China is now a commodity product. China has several holding companies that are dedicated to engineering, designing and manufacturing the tooling and molds necessary to lay up and build carbon rims. For a new company wanting to fabricate carbon rims, the barrier of entry is relatively low. A new company can also contract with rim foundries that make rims and have their specified rims made for them.
YISHUNBIKE is one example of a company that specifically manufactures carbon rims for wholesalers.
I believe that the majority of carbon rims sold in "Stores" in Aliexpress are selling rims fabricated in the rim foundries.
Regarding bicycle frames, Manufacturing technology for carbon frames is still advancing. Carbon frame manufacturing is a lot more complex than carbon rims. Over time, there has been a convergence of manufacturing practices that is making it more efficient and easier to make carbon frame. (Think open mold frames.)
Optimizing frames for minimal weight, durability and cost is still very time consuming and expensive. Most Chinese carbon frame manufacturers, higher end frames are in the 80% range for weight,durability and cost. China tends to lag behind a couple years in the latest fabrication processes that the high end frame manufacturers utilize.
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-The biggest disappointment has been both the VB-168 and the Yoeleo R12. The 168 (my particular frame) is a noodle.
I'm actually surprised by this. I don't find it to be any less stiff than my Tarmac SL7. And I'm a pretty big guy around 85kg. My 168 is actually my crit bike right now just because I don't want to crash and break my nice Tarmac. But performance wise I found them to be pretty similar.
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Entirely possible these different experiences are a result of manufacturing variance
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Sometimes I wonder if even sizing makes a difference in bike stiffness and handling with these Chinese frames. All my frames lean towards the small side and they feel sufficiently stiff to me. Whenever I hear talk about a noodle-like frame, it's something I haven't experienced. I guess that's an issue that only affects the taller height disadvantaged! ;D
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Several years ago, I had numerous conversations with manufacturers via Alibaba regarding Carbon rims. From my perspective, carbon rim manufacturing in China is now a commodity product. China has several holding companies that are dedicated to engineering, designing and manufacturing the tooling and molds necessary to lay up and build carbon rims. For a new company wanting to fabricate carbon rims, the barrier of entry is relatively low. A new company can also contract with rim foundries that make rims and have their specified rims made for them.
YISHUNBIKE is one example of a company that specifically manufactures carbon rims for wholesalers.
I believe that the majority of carbon rims sold in "Stores" in Aliexpress are selling rims fabricated in the rim foundries.
Regarding bicycle frames, Manufacturing technology for carbon frames is still advancing. Carbon frame manufacturing is a lot more complex than carbon rims. Over time, there has been a convergence of manufacturing practices that is making it more efficient and easier to make carbon frame. (Think open mold frames.)
Optimizing frames for minimal weight, durability and cost is still very time consuming and expensive. Most Chinese carbon frame manufacturers, higher end frames are in the 80% range for weight,durability and cost. China tends to lag behind a couple years in the latest fabrication processes that the high end frame manufacturers utilize.
I would absolutely agree as many of the sellers on Ali are offering basically the same rim with slightly different build options. Summer are definitely better than others though. Both in quality and service.
Does YISHUNBIKE do one offs to consumers at all? The R1088 is a nice looking frame.
https://www.yishunbike.com/product/r1088-daero-road/
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The rise of Chinese alternatives during this time brought so much excitement to this forum. Forum members were passionate about helping each other, and the overall vibe felt like a positive community of budget-minded enthusiasts. You could easily spend hours each day reading pages upon pages of new posts. The forum was basically a party everyday.
In Europe big online retailers are folding and selling off their stock at huge discounts. The second hand market has been flooded with the bikes that people bought during covid, at least for a while. I think what we're experiencing on this forum is just a reflection of the market cooling down significantly. The number of people in the market for a bike frame (instead of a fully assembled bike) is very small to begin with. Now, that the price advantage of chiner frames has shrunk somewhat, many people probably choose to not take the risk.
For the money that Winspace is asking these days, I can find quite a few framesets of the big brands at various online retailers. Granted, I might struggle to find the size I want. But still.
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Which Europe sellers are folding? I haven't really been following the market closely?
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Which Europe sellers are folding? I haven't really been following the market closely?
I think the largest one is Wiggle, which is going into some European form of bankruptcy.
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Winspace kept the pricing of their T1500/T1550 essentially the same for 4+ years. Same can't be said for brands like Yishun and Yoeleo. I originally bought my Yoeleo R6 for $850 in Fall 2020 and now their latest R12 cost $1600. So it's not unreasonable for Winspace to inevitably increase their prices. I'm certain the molds/tooling of their new Agile frame also contributes to the price hike. Mind you the quality and fit/finish of Winspace is on par with mid-level frames from the big boys.
This brings me back to my original point earlier. If your budget is $2000 for a frame, can you push for $3000? That gets you a Giant Propel or even a second-hand SL7. The Tavelo Attack is also a fantastic option too.
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I think the largest one is Wiggle, which is going into some European form of bankruptcy.
True, but they only had nice deals on their own in-house brands stuff. Other items like Shimano parts were still more expensive than in proper stores, i.e. bike-discount.com
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Sometimes I wonder if even sizing makes a difference in bike stiffness and handling with these Chinese frames. All my frames lean towards the small side and they feel sufficiently stiff to me. Whenever I hear talk about a noodle-like frame, it's something I haven't experienced. I guess that's an issue that only affects the taller height disadvantaged! ;D
Thats absolutely a thing. Especially in chinese frames that spend magnitudes less resources on development
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Winspace kept the pricing of their T1500/T1550 essentially the same for 4+ years. Same can't be said for brands like Yishun and Yoeleo.
I’m not trying to criticise Winspace. I just don’t think their market position is that unique anymore when compared to a few years ago. We’re kind of back to where we were before COVID in that, if you’re not super picky, you can snatch big brand frames from reputable retailers for big discounts if you’re patient enough. I’m based in Germany. A while ago, a lot of Giant TCR frames were sold rather cheap. After that it was Tarmac SL7 framesets and at the moment I can find pretty good offers for BMC Teammachine SLR framesets at around 1600-1700 EUR. So there’s a lot more going on at the “Winspace price point” compared to a few years ago. Below 1000EUR/USD however, a frame directly from China is still the best option, I think. Unless you’re ready to go second hand.
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What is everyone’s motivation post covid for when it comes to builds? Are you going for quality? Are you shopping Chinese for value? Maybe consumer views have change the past 4 years
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I’m going to be honest here: I very much miss the glory days of this forum during the pandemic years. It was a perfect storm. People were stuck at home with extra discretionary income and free-time, while major bike brands were dealing with fulfillment delays. The rise of Chinese alternatives during this time brought so much excitement to this forum. Forum members were passionate about helping each other, and the overall vibe felt like a positive community of budget-minded enthusiasts. You could easily spend hours each day reading pages upon pages of new posts. The forum was basically a party everyday. I’m lucky to have joined during COVID.
I think that this rises and falls with economics conditions and location. I bought my first (and only - so far) Chinese frame in 2014 from Velobuild. I've ordered a variety of Chinese parts since then, but have always kept a pretty close eye on the market (and your videos have been a great resource here - so thanks).
Market conditions have changed a lot since 2014 in Australia. When I bought that Velobuild frame, I was able to import a full Shimano 105 5800 groupset (at that time, newly released) for $290 USD. Similarly, international shipping was cheaper, and I was able to import some decent aluminium wheels for around $270 USD, and the frame itself - the VBR-016 - plus a seatpost was about $600 USD with a custom paint job. Total build then ended up being around $1300 USD, and to buy something equivalent locally was maybe 1.5x that price. A big part of the appeal to me was a threaded bottom bracket - which at that time was quite a novelty as basically every major brand had moved to press-fit.
A big part of being able to build that frame economically was being able to get the groupset at close to OEM prices. That has changed significantly now. Shimano and SRAM have both blocked sales across borders, and Campagnolo have priced themselves out of the market. To buy a mechanical Shimano 105 R7100 groupset now appears to be at least $1200 - and now that nearly all Chinese frames are fully integrated, there's no way I would use a mechanical groupset with one.
Additionally, I also chose that frame because there was not much on it to screw up in the build process. The BB was threaded and never gave me any issues. The headset used a standard integrated size (and the included Neco one was just fine), and the cabling was only internal through the downtube and came out at the bottom bracket - very easy to build. It still lives on as a spare bike.
The list of potential issues now is just so much longer that it is difficult (for me) to recommend a Chinese frame to most people unless they go in fully aware of all the issues. For example, this forum is filled with people having various issues with headsets and integrated bar/stems. If an integrated bar/stem is of poor quality, finding a replacement is a much more expensive and labour intensive job. Disc brake mounts often tend to be poorly faced and have problems from overspray. Seatposts are often proprietary with no alternatives available - as someone who rides a 0 offset seatpost this is a critical factor. If you're not doing your own labour, then it's very likely that having someone deal with these issues for you will not be worth it and a previous generation second-hand disc brake bike will represent better value for money.
During COVID, the market changed significantly in favour of Chinese frames. Wait times for Western brands were long, discounts were rare, and as a result the second-hand market was priced far higher than normal. The price of Chinese components did not change so much (the price of a Velobuild frame is not that different to ten years ago) so the prices became more competitive. Now we're seeing a correction in the second hand market, and the prices of full bikes and groupsets have come down as various distributors are overstocked in a cooling market. Recently, I was able to buy a Merida Scultura with 105 Di2 for around 1800 USD. At that price, and knowing that I wouldn't have to deal with the kind of issues mentioned above, it was an easy decision to choose a big brand frame this time around.
Step 1: Passion Project vs Functionality
As a cycling reviewer, I obviously don’t have any emotional attachments to my bikes. Except for my believed T1500. To me it’s about being functional and fast. If the “best” frame for (my) price range and riding style only offers matte black…I’ll take it every time. Custom paint means nothing to me if the frame is either a noodle or destroys my back. But I’m a performance-first person.
Fully agree with this. For what it's worth, the paint on my Velobuild frame was not particularly thick and chipped quite easily (noting that this was 10 years ago - maybe it's improved since then) - this would not be as much of an issue if it was just black.
Step 2: Riding Style and Geometry
Can you slam your stem? Cool for you. Do you prefer an endurance style bike? Also very cool. Geometry is critical obviously. I cannot stress seeking a professional bike fit enough. Or just comparing your current bike to your target bikes using something like Geometry Geeks.
This is particularly critical with the advent of fully integrated frames - though that goes for both Chinese and Western bike brands. With Chinese brands though, there definitely tends to be less endurance options available. Most of the popular models here are race geometry and there's a lot less information online around the endurance geometry frames. Perhaps it's because many of us here are looking for a cheap bike for racing that they won't be heartbroken over crashing.
Step 3: Budget vs “True” Budget
If your budget is “only $600” for a frame, ask yourself if an extra $300 will be significant to you a year from now. How about an extra $500? How about two years from now? Buy nice or buy twice. Might be worth spending the extra money if you plan to keep your bike for longer than two years. But be warned: cheap bikes are addicting.
There's no such thing as a free lunch. You'll remember the quality long after you've forgotten the cost. Which leads to...
Step 4: What is your “pain” threshold for cheap bikes?
Cheap bikes are cheap bikes for a reason. Sort of. The value-add for these types of bikes is you are willing to put in the work yourself to troubleshoot, should bike build problems arise. If you do however find yourself frustrated, fear not! The forum is here to help. Typically the more you spend, the less potential for problems to arise. Or the brand will be faster to rectify. Unless you’re Yoeleo… :-X
... this. The lack of customer support from these brands is always a risk, and you really have to consider that you're entering these transactions with the thought that you will never get any help from the brand with the product. You never want to be the test case with Chinese products (or at least, consider it money thrown away, and anything that works is a bonus) - I would always advise waiting until a number of people have tried the product, and hopefully see some anecdotal reports of how the brand has dealt with any issues that have arisen.
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COVID market conditions are a good point. It's a lot easier to get a big brand bike now, and if you aren't too particular about specs some of them aren't that much more expensive. I'm pretty sure Giant bikes undercut midrange Chinese builds on price now, especially if you get one on sale.
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True, but they only had nice deals on their own in-house brands stuff. Other items like Shimano parts were still more expensive than in proper stores, i.e. bike-discount.com
There were some fantastic deals for UK buyers. Pair of 105 Di2 Levers and calipers for £205 and a 105 12s chainset for £55. I'm on my way to putting together a Di2 groupset for £500-£600.
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There were some fantastic deals for UK buyers. Pair of 105 Di2 Levers and calipers for £205 and a 105 12s chainset for £55. I'm on my way to putting together a Di2 groupset for £500-£600.
Yep I got some of my shit from there
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Wiggle/Chain Reaction is (or was) awesome. I'd buy all my nutrition and handlebars from them. I was able to snag a spare set of Prime carbon aero handlebars from them for $100 right before they stopped shipping to the USA.
The good news is you can still find the alloy version of those bars rebranded as "Control Tech" on Amazon. A few bucks more expensive than the Prime branded version, but the ergonomics are the best in my collection of bars.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087M96R9V/?coliid=I1VS1T30JAMQVF&colid=39IDL28LA9NSD&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087M96R9V/?coliid=I1VS1T30JAMQVF&colid=39IDL28LA9NSD&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
Alternatively I also have a pair of these FSA Vision TriMax Aero alloy bars. 380mm at the hoods and 400mm in the drops. They also provide a lot reach (90mm) which I love, and they are lighter than the Prime alloy bars. Mostly they offer full internal cable routing like the Prime bars.
Vision/FSA Website
https://shop.visiontechusa.com/en/handlebars/road-triathlon/trimax-aero (https://shop.visiontechusa.com/en/handlebars/road-triathlon/trimax-aero)
Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Full-Speed-Ahead-Bicycle-Handlebar/dp/B089WJHZCD/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3ENRN411W326W&keywords=Full+Speed+Ahead+FSA+Vision+TriMax+Aero+Bicycle+Handlebar+-&qid=1706453600&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=full+speed+ahead+fsa+vision+trimax+aero+bicycle+handlebar+-%2Csporting%2C181&sr=1-4 (https://www.amazon.com/Full-Speed-Ahead-Bicycle-Handlebar/dp/B089WJHZCD/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3ENRN411W326W&keywords=Full+Speed+Ahead+FSA+Vision+TriMax+Aero+Bicycle+Handlebar+-&qid=1706453600&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=full+speed+ahead+fsa+vision+trimax+aero+bicycle+handlebar+-%2Csporting%2C181&sr=1-4)
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Wiggle/Chain Reaction is (or was) awesome. I'd buy all my nutrition and handlebars from them. I was able to snag a spare set of Prime carbon aero handlebars from them for $100 right before they stopped shipping to the USA.
The good news is you can still find the alloy version of those bars rebranded as "Control Tech" on Amazon. A few bucks more expensive than the Prime branded version, but the ergonomics are the best in my collection of bars.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087M96R9V/?coliid=I1VS1T30JAMQVF&colid=39IDL28LA9NSD&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087M96R9V/?coliid=I1VS1T30JAMQVF&colid=39IDL28LA9NSD&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
Alternatively I also have a pair of these FSA Vision TriMax Aero alloy bars. 380mm at the hoods and 400mm in the drops. They also provide a lot reach (90mm) which I love, and they are lighter than the Prime alloy bars. Mostly they offer full internal cable routing like the Prime bars.
Vision/FSA Website
https://shop.visiontechusa.com/en/handlebars/road-triathlon/trimax-aero (https://shop.visiontechusa.com/en/handlebars/road-triathlon/trimax-aero)
Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Full-Speed-Ahead-Bicycle-Handlebar/dp/B089WJHZCD/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3ENRN411W326W&keywords=Full+Speed+Ahead+FSA+Vision+TriMax+Aero+Bicycle+Handlebar+-&qid=1706453600&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=full+speed+ahead+fsa+vision+trimax+aero+bicycle+handlebar+-%2Csporting%2C181&sr=1-4 (https://www.amazon.com/Full-Speed-Ahead-Bicycle-Handlebar/dp/B089WJHZCD/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3ENRN411W326W&keywords=Full+Speed+Ahead+FSA+Vision+TriMax+Aero+Bicycle+Handlebar+-&qid=1706453600&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=full+speed+ahead+fsa+vision+trimax+aero+bicycle+handlebar+-%2Csporting%2C181&sr=1-4)
ControlTech is the actual OEM for Wiggle handlebars IIRC
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Yep I got some of my shit from there
Great deals! Wish we had some like that in the US. It does seem UK has many better deals on biking stuff. Even the secondary market is quite a bit less.
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I’m going to be honest here: I very much miss the glory days of this forum during the pandemic years. It was a perfect storm. People were stuck at home with extra discretionary income and free-time, while major bike brands were dealing with fulfillment delays. The rise of Chinese alternatives during this time brought so much excitement to this forum. Forum members were passionate about helping each other, and the overall vibe felt like a positive community of budget-minded enthusiasts. You could easily spend hours each day reading pages upon pages of new posts. The forum was basically a party everyday. I’m lucky to have joined during COVID.
Preach!
For all the chatter around here about prices leveling up, or cooling market conditions, it is still the case that to buy “quality” however you choose to define it, it is upward from 3k/4k mucho dollars. For me, is about the love of riding, and riding the bike that I invest on building myself, versus the bike marketeering wants me to buy. I choose the former. The bike I need/love versus the bike somebody else wants me to have. The love for building things, plus the love of riding. And Life is good.
I am in the middle of two builds, both Velobuild. A 168 and CX-02 because we all know, cross will come again. Velobuild’s customer service has worked for me. When certain pieces had been left out of the shipping, VB issued them asap much to my delight (and quiet frankly, my surprise).
Being somewhat of a late comer to the forums, I have found reading through the posts, old and new, to be highly instructive, timely and relevant. Being a late buyer of a velobuild, I am seeying their product has evolved from the early days and the build issues that others have had, I have either averted them, or prepared for them. Some issues have disappeared completely, like the headset dust cap issue of it rubbing against the the top of the head tube. That particular issue has been engineered out in the frames that I have.
Keep up the engagement and the passion isn the forum.
Onward onward.
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10. VeloBuild VB-168
9. Dengfu R12 (harshest on the list)
8. TanTan X38
7. VeloBuild VB-177
6. Yoeleo R12
5. 2022 Allez Sprint (most versatile)
4. Yishun R086-D
3. Tavelo Attack (lightest frameset)
2. Giant Propel Advanced Pro
1. Winspace T1500 (best value)
Notes:
-The Dengfu R12 is SUPER stiff. Stiffer than the 168, 177, X38, and R12. Perfect if responsiveness is important to you. However, even with 28c tires it’s tough to live with everyday. Although I've done 160km rides on it LoL. Dengfu discontinued it I think.
-I’m planning to rebuild my X38 this season. Originally I had to donor the SRAM eTap groupset for my Yishun build. It’s a great looking frame, stands out among other Chinese builds. Makes for a good coffee ride bike, but it could not be my only road bike option. I just found the overall ride dynamics to be neutral and somewhat clumsy, even after initially thinking it was a super stiff ride. YMMV.
-Had I bought my Tavelo Attack before my Giant Propel…I probably would not have bought the Propel. The Tavelo offers 9/10 the dynamics of the Propel for half the price. However, the extra 10% is still noticeable. Having the support of a local bike shop/Giant dealer and essentially a “no questions asked” warranty policy has come in handy for me.
-The biggest disappointment has been both the VB-168 and the Yoeleo R12. The 168 (my particular frame) is a noodle. But the geometry works so well for me. Yoeleo advertises the R12 has a race bike. It is not. Big brand quality paint, 32-34c tire clearance, and great fit and finish. Packaging is some of the best in the biz, better than Giant and Specialized. But it truly is an endurance bike. For the price of the R12 you could almost buy a Yishun/LC frame and a set of wheels from Leon/Yuanan which is a far more compelling offering.
Hey Pat, can you talk a bit on why Elves didn't make the cut at all? I was pretty interested in the Falath, but ultimately decided the geometry didn't work for me. That being said I like how they're setup with a distributor in the US, feels more Winspace esque than some of the other b2b brands.
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Hey Pat, can you talk a bit on why Elves didn't make the cut at all? I was pretty interested in the Falath, but ultimately decided the geometry didn't work for me. That being said I like how they're setup with a distributor in the US, feels more Winspace esque than some of the other b2b brands.
I meant to ask this too. If I do another build it will probably be a VB-R-066 or a Falath. Elves def seems to have a more serious distribution setup. I know they are big in Australia and Malaysia too I think.
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When I approached my build, it was less about saving alot of money and more about beating the market. Canyon just did a price drop, but most mainstream brands were 3k in Canyons case but 3,250 to 3,500 for a 105 mechanical build. This is with the aluminum wheels that always come stock on entry level road bikes. I think macro conditions are changing, which will make chinese builds less of a “deal.” But in my case the fact is that for $3k I got a T1550, HYPERS and 105. Compare that to the Emonda sl5 which is $3350, with clunker wheels. Spending the same money as an entry road bike build you can have the weight and aero benefits of carbon wheels. Also I know people on this forum who are REALLY down the rabbit whole that can piece together builds for sub 2k at similar spec. I would guess the main benefit this forum has spread is education on how to get cheaper carbon wheels. Many argue wheels are the most important upgrade
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To add something to discussion about value perspective: Winspace Agile frameset would cost roughly 2000€ to get shipped to me. Meanwhile, Giant TCR Advanced 2 costs 2800€ with full mechanical 105 groupset. Building Agile to the same spec would cost way more, considering 105 groupset alone is 550€. I guess Agile does provide better value if you are building top spec bike vs upgrading the TCR
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Also I know people on this forum who are REALLY down the rabbit whole that can piece together builds for sub 2k at similar spec. I would guess the main benefit this forum has spread is education on how to get cheaper carbon wheels. Many argue wheels are the most important upgrade
ATM, you can only really save serious money if you go full low budget with direct2consumer-parts from China. I built my TT-X38 with LTWOO er9, Magene powermeter and full carbon wheels + a number of 2nd hand parts (like my Sram cranks, saddle and Vittoria tires) for less than 2.5k EUR. But to do that, you're required to invest A LOT of time researching parts, be prepared to deal with problems when building the bike up and you need to take the risk that customer service and warranty might be troublesome or even more or less non existent.
I mean, there's a GIANT concept store in my city. For not that much more money, I could probably walk in there, grab a bike and come back and have the shop deal with issues, should there be any. But for me, this is also about the journey. I like to come up with the idea of "my dream bike", source all the parts and think every little detail through and then build up something that I couldn't buy anywhere else and that potentially no one else has.
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I don't think your rant qualifies as long.....
That being said, thanks for posting mate. Loving you reply's both here and on Insta :)
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ATM, you can only really save serious money if you go full low budget with direct2consumer-parts from China. I built my TT-X38 with LTWOO er9, Magene powermeter and full carbon wheels + a number of 2nd hand parts (like my Sram cranks, saddle and Vittoria tires) for less than 2.5k EUR. But to do that, you're required to invest A LOT of time researching parts, be prepared to deal with problems when building the bike up and you need to take the risk that customer service and warranty might be troublesome or even more or less non existent.
I mean, there's a GIANT concept store in my city. For not that much more money, I could probably walk in there, grab a bike and come back and have the shop deal with issues, should there be any. But for me, this is also about the journey. I like to come up with the idea of "my dream bike", source all the parts and think every little detail through and then build up something that I couldn't buy anywhere else and that potentially no one else has.
Agree Completely.
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The good news is you can still find the alloy version of those bars rebranded as "Control Tech" on Amazon. A few bucks more expensive than the Prime branded version, but the ergonomics are the best in my collection of bars.
Thanks for this tip. I wish they came narrower.
I sense that you have no love for Carbonda, or Flybike frames in general. Why is that?
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Oh man. I remember way back in the day when Velobuild was THE forum for chinese carbon. Before it was turned over to Chris and Zhongwei (actually not sure if Chris still works for Zhongwei) and became another seller. You could find all the vendors and buyer reviews there. Also that thread on Roadbikereview still had some traction. Its pretty dead now.
Then this forum took that spot and has been super helpful to my latest build. Its definitely expanded beyond frame selection to other rising Chinese gear (powermeters, computers, kit, etc) and I'm grateful for that.
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Is there anyone else on here who just rides for fitness? I actually don't follow bike brands, components, etc. as long as it's functional and hits a target price point. I just try to make sure my bike fit is good, mechanics are pristine and weight+aero positioning is optimized. I'd rather focus on nutrition, rest recovery, cardio and strength training. Plus I guess I'm more down the rabbit hole than most, since I can take advantage of questionable weight limited components and smaller/stiffer bike frames. I somewhat enjoy trying obscure and unknown bike frames/parts!
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Hey Pat, can you talk a bit on why Elves didn't make the cut at all? I was pretty interested in the Falath, but ultimately decided the geometry didn't work for me. That being said I like how they're setup with a distributor in the US, feels more Winspace esque than some of the other b2b brands.
I meant to ask this too. If I do another build it will probably be a VB-R-066 or a Falath. Elves def seems to have a more serious distribution setup. I know they are big in Australia and Malaysia too I think.
The answer is simple: My list only includes frames I've actually reviewed :) - But if you really wanna know why I haven't made an effort to get the Falath Evo in my hands, just ask @PLA. I pretty much share the same views as him.
I'd also like to mention that my original intentions were never to start a YouTube channel nor become the "Chinese Bike Dude". Honestly I just didn't have money for a big-brand bike at the time. The idea of building a bike for the first time intrigued me, and I figured reviewing my Yoeleo R6 would be a cool little video.
The more mainstream brands don't want be to associated with anything "Chinese." Quite ironic if you ask me. So I needed to widen my scope beyond Chinese frames in order to attract new brands for reviews. Brands like Specialized and Giant aren't exactly giving low-level YouTubers like myself "free" frames, which meant I've spent more of own resources in 2023 than all the years past. Yishun R086D, Giant Propel, and TanTan x38 (plus all the associated groupsets for each) were all bought with my own money.
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It would be great if Taiwan had their own premium version of Aliexpress, maybe with previous gen Merida open mold frames, as long as they had a way to keep off mainland produced product that's just been relabeled.
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Bit more food for thoughts regarding value - how does Winspace compare against in-house brands like Radon? Just saw one of their offerings with a 12 speed Ultegra Di2 groupset for 2800 euros: https://www.bike-discount.de/en/radon-vaillant-disc-9.0-2. Even with bad wheels, value is through the roof as groupset alone is 1500 euros.
On a unrelated note, Twitter bike has been rebranded in the West:
https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/lobito-rv08-restrospec-2023-road-bike/139664896/p
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The more mainstream brands don't want be to associated with anything "Chinese." Quite ironic if you ask me. So I needed to widen my scope beyond Chinese frames in order to attract new brands for reviews. Brands like Specialized and Giant aren't exactly giving low-level YouTubers like myself "free" frames, which meant I've spent more of own resources in 2023 than all the years past. Yishun R086D, Giant Propel, and TanTan x38 (plus all the associated groupsets for each) were all bought with my own money.
His own resources. This is why the man is an UNBIASED GOAT. Make a damn pateron already and take our money!
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I'm going to be brutally honest here as well.
I'm likely one of the "super experienced members" you mentioned.
For about a decade, I've been assembling frames and wheels directly from China.
My journey began with discovering groups like MTBR, iPlay, Pieter, etc., and eventually led me to chinertown.com
Infinite thanks and love to Sitar_Ned!!
I hope my contributions have helped build this fantastic forum and gave something back from what I learned here.
I'm fortunate to have a well-paying job that allows me to build bikes for friends and family as a hobby, at no cost to them.
My goal is to provide them with great bikes at fair prices and to make them happy.
I'm historically particularly biased towards Carbonda and Lightbicycle, brands that you amusingly never mention.
This isn't because they pay me (they don't). It's because, among all the providers I've tested, they have never let me down.
Their products are neither the cheapest nor overly expensive.
Moreover, if anything goes wrong, their customer support surpasses that of any Western brand I've dealt with.
I understand that some people, like Trace Velo, Joe, to some extent Hambini, many others, maybe you, chasing followers to carve out a living on YouTube and social media.
However, this has turned on the marketing machine around here.
No-name frames are suddenly sub par, while stickered frames selling at double the price, or even worse, branded frames are the real deal.
Persuading folks they need some stiffness and aero benefits only pros might need.
And it works! People are seeking broader validation and rely on branded visuals to reassure themselves they're not making a misguided decision.
It doesn’t bother me people trying do their thing on YouTube and elsewhere.
But your arrival here has sadly contributed unintentionally to the spoiling of the pristine wilderness that Chinertown once was :'(
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Well said sir.
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Bit more food for thoughts regarding value - how does Winspace compare against in-house brands like Radon? Just saw one of their offerings with a 12 speed Ultegra Di2 groupset for 2800 euros: https://www.bike-discount.de/en/radon-vaillant-disc-9.0-2. Even with bad wheels, value is through the roof as groupset alone is 1500 euros.
That depends... It is great value if you can't build a bike yourself... (the radon is discounted for the moment I see)
If you can build a bike you can get about the same with a nice wheelset and totally integrated cables for not much more.
1500 for the groupset, 600-700 for a frame (not winspace I guess), 400-500 for a wheelset and 300-400 for the rest...
With the Radon there is the chance you will have to swap out parts to get it to your liking so the price will go up (saddle, stem, tires, wheels after a while...)
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I'm going to be brutally honest here as well.
I'm likely one of the "super experienced members" you mentioned.
For about a decade, I've been assembling frames and wheels directly from China.
My journey began with discovering groups like MTBR, iPlay, Pieter, etc., and eventually led me to chinertown.com
Infinite thanks and love to Sitar_Ned!!
I hope my contributions have helped build this fantastic forum and gave something back from what I learned here.
I'm fortunate to have a well-paying job that allows me to build bikes for friends and family as a hobby, at no cost to them.
My goal is to provide them with great bikes at fair prices and to make them happy.
I'm historically particularly biased towards Carbonda and Lightbicycle, brands that you amusingly never mention.
This isn't because they pay me (they don't). It's because, among all the providers I've tested, they have never let me down.
Their products are neither the cheapest nor overly expensive.
Moreover, if anything goes wrong, their customer support surpasses that of any Western brand I've dealt with.
I understand that some people, like Trace Velo, Joe, to some extent Hambini, many others, maybe you, chasing followers to carve out a living on YouTube and social media.
However, this has turned on the marketing machine around here.
No-name frames are suddenly sub par, while stickered frames selling at double the price, or even worse, branded frames are the real deal.
Persuading folks they need some stiffness and aero benefits only pros might need.
And it works! People are seeking broader validation and rely on branded visuals to reassure themselves they're not making a misguided decision.
It doesn’t bother me people trying do their thing on YouTube and elsewhere.
But your arrival here has sadly contributed unintentionally to the spoiling of the pristine wilderness that Chinertown once was :'(
This is unfair and kind of wrong IMO.
1, Pat does not make a living off of YT. I know first hand what YT pays creators. His channel is def a labor of love.
2, some of Pat's recommended frames are exactly the kind of no name brands you claim influencers dunk on.
3, even if YT influencers were as bad as you claim (which they aren't), they have no material effect on you. Carbonda & Light Bicycle still exist (and Light Bicycle is a brand Peak Torque loves). So you can keep buying and building their stuff, and enjoying their products and service no differently than before
4, Chinese bike stuff was going to get more popular and mainstream w/o influencers. The Chinese bike industry WANTS to grow and become mainstream. Them offering high quality stuff at great pricing was going to make them popular no matter what. So the growth of the industry as well as popularity was a foregone conclusion as long as the product and service provided satisfactory value.
I feel like you are unhappy that Chinese bikes aren't a secret anymore.... IDK, on one hand they kind of never were- the long existence and growing popularity of this forum is proof of that. But on the other hand, they still are- I'd wager the average road cyclist doesn't know much about Chinese bike brands outside the fact that they exist. I'm really not sure what your issue is or why people like Pat are to blame :-\
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Takiyaki I agree with you on those points. In particular the average cyclist hasn't a clue to look at these options. 95% of people who buy a bike are looking to the big brands for a variety of reasons the biggest of which they just don't know enough and want a carry away product.
Personally I appreciate people who are early adopters and willing to share their experiences on here or YT so I'm not sure why the knock.
Lightbicycle, nextie, etc kind of opened the doors to these less expensive direct options. They make great products, but if I'm being frank, their prices are slowly rivaling some of the more mainstream brands and the value isn't what it used to be. That's not bad or wrong. It's just what it is and I think likely what their business goal was in the first place. Can't fault them for wanting to make an actual profit on what they're doing. I still consider them every time I'm looking, but end up just buying a similar product for less on Ali.
To each their own I guess. I have no issues with either side as it's just opinion.
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This is unfair and kind of wrong IMO.
Regarding Pat it's probably a little unfair. But carbonazza has a point: The more companies like winspace see how they are seen as reputable brands delivering higher quality, the higher their prices will rise. Even more so, if they pay something for the marketing and being named and shown by "influencers". And the whole point of buying those Chinese frames is to spare all the cost for marketing-bullshit. Not buying a name, but just the frame for just riding. I would prefer to keep it that way.
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Regarding Pat it's probably a little unfair. But carbonazza has a point: The more companies like winspace see how they are seen as reputable brands delivering higher quality, the higher their prices will rise. Even more so, if they pay something for the marketing and being named and shown by "influencers". And the whole point of buying those Chinese frames is to spare all the cost for marketing-bullshit. Not buying a name, but just the frame for just riding. I would prefer to keep it that way.
That's well within those brands' rights IMO. Similarly, as a consumer it's your/my right to not buy from brands that don't deliver what you deem to be good value.
But it's not an industry-wide thing. On one side you have Winspace hiking up prices (from high to insane IMO). On the other side you have brands like Velobuild who have barely increased prices for years, while still updating their lineups and providing decent service. And then you have the whole spectrum in between. So painting the whole industry as one extreme, and then blaming that perceived change on influencers just doesn't seem correct or fair to me.
Takiyaki I agree with you on those points. In particular the average cyclist hasn't a clue to look at these options. 95% of people who buy a bike are looking to the big brands for a variety of reasons the biggest of which they just don't know enough and want a carry away product.
Personally I appreciate people who are early adopters and willing to share their experiences on here or YT so I'm not sure why the knock.
Lightbicycle, nextie, etc kind of opened the doors to these less expensive direct options. They make great products, but if I'm being frank, their prices are slowly rivaling some of the more mainstream brands and the value isn't what it used to be. That's not bad or wrong. It's just what it is and I think likely what their business goal was in the first place. Can't fault them for wanting to make an actual profit on what they're doing. I still consider them every time I'm looking, but end up just buying a similar product for less on Ali.
To each their own I guess. I have no issues with either side as it's just opinion.
I think there's still a value proposition for getting Light Bicycle wheels vs equivalent Bontrager/Zipp etc. Especially when you factor in customization.
Plus everything is just getting more expensive. A lot of the Chinese brands price increases have been way below inflation. I think I bought my Dengfu frame for $550 in 2018-2019. That's not far off for an equivalent frame today. Western brands haven't been anywhere near as conservative in their price hikes.
I work in data/engineering so I have a pet peeve for anchoring opinions to real information. We can perceive anything how we want but if someone wants to levy accusations or criticisms they have to be rooted in reality IMO.
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Ever since Interbike folded and BRAIN was purchased by Outside, detailed statistics regarding detailed bicycle purchases are all behind paywalls. All we can find these days regarding bicycle sales are top level unit sales and $$ information. How does this pertain to this discussion? As I understood it, 80+% of all bicycle sales are sold as complete bicycles by the top ten companies. The other 20% are the smaller name companies. Last I knew, perhaps 1% or less of bicycles are built by individuals who purchase a new frame. This forum is getting closer to having 7000 members. I am guessing , but perhaps 3000 of our GLOBAL members purchase frames from China and build their own bikes from the ground up, this is nothing in the big picture of selling bicycles. When I look at the list of 10 frames Pat listed, most of these companies have fairly low mfg capacity, a few list 3K frame per year. (On a side note, Giant is the largest Bicycle company in the world, and one Giant frame made pat's list)
This says to me that a person trying to be an "influencer" regarding reviewing and recommending Chinese manufactured frames sold on Aliexpress is statistically insignificant. Even if a new Chinese frame manufacturing company starts to gain traction with their own branded frames, their real sales potential lies in having a bicycle importer pick up their product and brand it under the importer's product name.
The average cyclist is too lazy or believes it is too difficult to build a bicycle from the ground up. Therefore this discussion is for a very small niche in a very small market.
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Regarding lightbicycle and rims...I just realized too that I'm often building my own wheels so likely that factors into my value equation and proce comparisons. They do a good job.
Great point on inflation and prices. Mainstream brands have been wildly crazy vs the stuff we're discussing.
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So painting the whole industry as one extreme, and then blaming that perceived change on influencers just doesn't seem correct or fair to me.
Joe from panda has reiterated many times that the biggest return on investment for Chinese brands has historically been and still is driven by influencers reviewing their products. Lightcarbon told me that they had a big increase in individual product orders after influencer reviews were released, same goes for Yishun, too, except my takeaway from my discussion with Yishun was they viewed it as a negative since it takes up a lot of time for single frame orders.
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Luke from trace velo talking about the forum in his last video about the elite wheels
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Influencers may have the biggest return on investment (tangible sales generated against marketing dollars spent), but probably not for the overall sales of any given brand. Especially for a large OEM factory. Winspace of course is probably one of the only exceptions here. It's an easy method to sell a few extra frames without much marketing effort.
Take VeloBuild for example. What are the overhead/production costs to manufacturer a frameset? Maybe a couple of hundred dollars? So if VeloBuild sends out a "free" frame in exchange for review, and that video review generates even two frameset purchases at full price, VeloBuild is already net positive on their investment. We just don't know how much of VB's sales in it's entirety are driven specifically as a result of influencers.
The whole Chiner Bike gatekeeping is interesting. I've been a huge fan of hip hop since the 1980's, so I understand the feelings of wanting to keep a sub-culture at a grassroots level versus going mainstream globally. This also reminds me of the hipster culture in late 2000s and early 2010s. We want to keep things underground even to the detriment a brand's sustainability. At the end of the day every brand/factory/agent is in the business of making money. With or without the help of influencers.
So I've been making videos for over 3 years now and I live in a large metro city. I'm also very active in the cycling community here. However...I have YET to encounter any Chinese brands in the wild that I've reviewed except for Winspace. A few pairs of Hypers and a single T1500 frameset. Talk about perspective. Granted, the social pressure/marketing here to ride S-Works frames and Pas Normal kits (in my particular demographic of cyclists) is very high. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But no Chinese Bike Dude influencer is going to usurp that.
Sidenote: I've had my eye on Light Bicycle's Falcon WR65 wheels for a couple of months now. 65mm deep, 32mm external, and 25mm internal is such an obnoxious combo that I have to try it for myself. Gonna lace them to DTSwiss 240s.
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My argument wasn't that sending influencers frames would increase the cost, which is given back to us by increasing prices. That is indeed marginal. But prices aren't made from costs, but from what you can actually ask for, what the customer is willing to pay.
Btw, I'm not criticizising anyone here, neither the influencers nor the companies looking for effective marketing. Doing that thing is probably in the best interest of both. It's just not in my best interest (probably true for a lot of people here in this forum) and I learned to speak out for that.
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Sidenote: I've had my eye on Light Bicycle's Falcon WR65 wheels for a couple of months now.
Hopefully you will put them on some Carbonda frame. Two birds in one stone.