Chinertown
Chinese Carbon Road Bikes => Road Bike Frames, Wheels & Components => Topic started by: dumbmachine on April 03, 2024, 09:27:17 AM
-
Heard about it on Chris Miller's pod. Looks the same as propel with a mini sniffer headtube.
Haven't seen all the colors yet, but I think I'm in love. If only get it in India was easy.
Pictures: https://www.instagram.com/p/C5HTrMtuEhT/
-
I am way beyond the point of gratuitous consumerism and hoarding bikes. But I really want one.
My current Tavelo Attack is fantastic especially with a great set of wheels. It's light and very responsive. The only thing holding it back from being perfect given the price, is I would love a bit more reach. The geometry is more of an all-arounder than aero.
The new Tavelo Arow frame solves both the reach and stack issues for me. And the design means I could probably theoretically dump both my Attack and Propel frames. I think this new frame will be more popular than even the new Winspace Agile.
-
looks way more interesting that the attack, that felt like the most generic dropped stays frame I've seen in my life and was basically an open mold frame
edit: this is the Adapt QX-B01 frame http://www.adapt-bikes.com/Products-detail?product_id=95
that being said it's not a bad design, front end is straight up a stevens arcalis, which tests very fast, rear end is tavelo attack
-
I am way beyond the point of gratuitous consumerism and hoarding bikes. But I really want one.
My current Tavelo Attack is fantastic especially with a great set of wheels. It's light and very responsive. The only thing holding it back from being perfect given the price, is I would love a bit more reach. The geometry is more of an all-arounder than aero.
The new Tavelo Arow frame solves both the reach and stack issues for me. And the design means I could probably theoretically dump both my Attack and Propel frames. I think this new frame will be more popular than even the new Winspace Agile.
Being nearly half the price of your propel and giant issues ;), propel might turn into a regret after this.
-
Dang this frame looks nice, I may need to buy this.
-
Some locals here in Japan shared the weight of the frame and it looks NAISU
Standard 810gr
Super Light 710gr
not sure for which size, but I have to say t looks very decent....
Hopefully the prices will remain decent as well.
A bad exampe could be Winspace with it's Agile frame, it is already too close to western brands and I can purchase 2nd hand SL7 (non S-works) frames cheaper in JPN.
Like the Agile frame direct from Winspace ends up to be 300.000JPY, while a used SL7 frame is ~250.000JPY. With that pricing it is rather pointless to opt for direct China frames.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php/?story_fbid=1146515660020662&id=100039867169403
-
A bad exampe could be Winspace with it's Agile frame, it is already too close to western brands and I can purchase 2nd hand SL7 (non S-works) frames cheaper in JPN.
Like the Agile frame direct from Winspace ends up to be 300.000JPY, while a used SL7 frame is ~250.000JPY. With that pricing it is rather pointless to opt for direct China frames.
I'm not a specialized fanboy, but you would be crazy to spend more to get a winspace than an sl7. Just for further resale value alone.
China learns. China started manufacturing, poorly then well, started by copying, then started inventing and more and more is now innovating. Winspace is an example of China starting to brand. Branding doesn't make a product better per se, but it does make it more expensive. Which is why this forum is largely about buying OEM frames from factories or brokers like velobuild who are basically a distribution channel for OEM frames.
Farsports is another example of China starting to brand. Their handlebars winning the Olympics was a key moment for them. They make great wheels but their pricing has gotten less and less appealing as they grow as a brand.
-
I'm not a specialized fanboy, but you would be crazy to spend more to get a winspace than an sl7. Just for further resale value alone.
China learns. China started manufacturing, poorly then well, started by copying, then started inventing and more and more is now innovating. Winspace is an example of China starting to brand. Branding doesn't make a product better per se, but it does make it more expensive. Which is why this forum is largely about buying OEM frames from factories or brokers like velobuild who are basically a distribution channel for OEM frames.
Farsports is another example of China starting to brand. Their handlebars winning the Olympics was a key moment for them. They make great wheels but their pricing has gotten less and less appealing as they grow as a brand.
799usd shipped for a set of modern width carbon rims laced with sapim spokes to dt350 hubs is petty damn appealing to me. Farsports is great. Their branded stuff can essentially be ignored. I think it was a failed experiment.
-
looks way more interesting that the attack, that felt like the most generic dropped stays frame I've seen in my life and was basically an open mold frame
edit: this is the Adapt QX-B01 frame http://www.adapt-bikes.com/Products-detail?product_id=95
that being said it's not a bad design, front end is straight up a stevens arcalis, which tests very fast, rear end is tavelo attack
Not a huge fan of the BB86. Not a great setup for larger diameter spindles. Was hoping for something like a T47.
-
Some locals here in Japan shared the weight of the frame and it looks NAISU
Standard 810gr
Super Light 710gr
not sure for which size, but I have to say t looks very decent....
I am pretty sure these values are not correct, given the weight of the current attack bike. Maybe if they would use a lot more t1000 carbon wich would cause a big increase in price.
-
I am pretty sure these values are not correct, given the weight of the current attack bike. Maybe if they would use a lot more t1000 carbon wich would cause a big increase in price.
Man hours are far more expensive than higher modulus carbon. But they may choose to charge a lot more if it has a competitive and desirable feature (light weight). I doubt those figures for anything except an XS or S though.
Waiting to see geo.
-
Some locals here in Japan shared the weight of the frame and it looks NAISU
Standard 810gr
Super Light 710gr
not sure for which size, but I have to say t looks very decent....
Hopefully the prices will remain decent as well.
A bad exampe could be Winspace with it's Agile frame, it is already too close to western brands and I can purchase 2nd hand SL7 (non S-works) frames cheaper in JPN.
Like the Agile frame direct from Winspace ends up to be 300.000JPY, while a used SL7 frame is ~250.000JPY. With that pricing it is rather pointless to opt for direct China frames.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php/?story_fbid=1146515660020662&id=100039867169403
Exactly. Get a way better frame cheaper is a no brainer.
-
New video out but no further details yet, might be coming with the Shanghai Bike Show?
https://youtu.be/AMvbUHrR-O8?si=5C42Wrl1dHtXJrdN
-
I still wanna know who is actually developing these bikes. Are Tavelo actually doing anything here or are they just buying the mold from Adapt?
Also Adapt claim 870 g for size M
-
Preorder is now available on Panda podium, $1880 USD for the standard version and $2380 USD for the ultralight version... Pretty expensive..
-
Preorder is now available on Panda podium, $1880 USD for the standard version and $2380 USD for the ultralight version... Pretty expensive..
That is indeed a little more expensive than the other chinese frames, but still in line with that the other chinese premium brands are offering. Elilee and Seka are also offering two versions of their frames at around same price(s), but at least you get handlebar included in the price for Elilee. In that regard, Elilee offers slightly better value. I already had my Elilee for quite some time now and have been enjoying it so much, but the new Tavelo Arow and SEKA Spear intrigue me.
-
Seka, bross, elilee aren't open mold though
-
The price is extremely disappointing, and I would even start to argue against the spirit of this forum. I think many people on this forum want high-quality carbon frames for less than mainstream brands and at that price point you might as well buy a specialIzed Or a giant or a Trek
-
Very fair point about the current pricing of both Winspace and Tavelo. But if they are both in fact sourced by Adapt, it's a shame we don't see more bike builds and conversations on their frames on this forum. Especially if we are to assume the quality/fit finish is nearly the same if true.
The question becomes:
1. Does Adapt not (easily) offer up B2C sales?
2. Are people generally just not interested in their frames?
If it's the latter then it's odd to use the Winspace open-mold talking point if people just aren't interested in Adapt's offerings to begin with.
-
Winspace being open mold was better hidden for a while. I would expect adapt don't sell d2c from how barebones their website and range of offerings on it is, so they've never attempted to make themselves known to the public.
-
Very fair point about the current pricing of both Winspace and Tavelo. But if they are both in fact sourced by Adapt, it's a shame we don't see more bike builds and conversations on their frames on this forum. Especially if we are to assume the quality/fit finish is nearly the same if true.
The question becomes:
1. Does Adapt not (easily) offer up B2C sales?
2. Are people generally just not interested in their frames?
If it's the latter then it's odd to use the Winspace open-mold talking point if people just aren't interested in Adapt's offerings to begin with.
I have contacted people i know in the industry and the answer is:
Adapt does not offer (easily) B2C sales at all. You need some pretty deep connections to get them to entertain such an idea.
-
Very fair point about the current pricing of both Winspace and Tavelo. But if they are both in fact sourced by Adapt, it's a shame we don't see more bike builds and conversations on their frames on this forum. Especially if we are to assume the quality/fit finish is nearly the same if true.
The question becomes:
1. Does Adapt not (easily) offer up B2C sales?
2. Are people generally just not interested in their frames?
If it's the latter then it's odd to use the Winspace open-mold talking point if people just aren't interested in Adapt's offerings to begin with.
I emailed Adapt to buy a frame and they said no, they wouldn't sell directly to consumers.
Tavelo, Nich, and 1OF1 are all using the Adapt frame. My issue has always been price. People don't want to spend $2000 for an open mold frame. Heck, most people don't want to spend $1500 for an open mold. That's why I never even seriously considered a Winspace. The Adapt looks good, but I'm not spending that on an open mold frame. Maybe for a Bross or Seka that's in house, but even that I'd like to see more reviews of quality and long term durability. Over $2000 for direct to consumer is a tough sell when you can get local shop support with a big brand for $1000 more. Which in my book is worth it. Parts availability, shops in every bigger city, mechanics that are familiar with the brand, warranty support. That's the premium you pay for the big brands. With an open mold, I know what to expect and work on the bike myself. You get a deal but you know you don't have that brand support. At $500, that's worth the trade. $2300? Nope. Not when you can probably get an SL7 for that price.
-
Reportedly the front end is incredibly flexible
-
A clear pass to me. Not worth the risk and hazzle.
I wish Tavelo all the best with that pricing policy.
Myself just pulled the trigger for a almost new Scultura 9000 with Alu rims yet full R8100 for less than 2400€. A way better package and value if you ask me.
Now I'm looking forward for some new wheels from the Shanghai bike show and that the Yen comes up in value again and then I'll upgrade. Current favourite by quite some margin is 9Velo with carbon spokes.
-
9velo is just off the shelf farsports parts. You can get it all directly from farsports
-
Really? But the hubs and spoking looks different.
As a bonus, the price for 9Velo seems better value to me.
At least from what I can see.
My 9Velo preference is the CD2.0 in 45mm. Less than 1200gr...
-
Tavelo is releasing an "Ultralight" version of their Arow for $2400. Yikes...
My Giant Propel Advanced Pro frameset cost me $3000 before tax. Even included carbon bottle cages designed for the frame ;D. Granted their in-house carbon SLR stem cost $400, but you can totally find cheaper stems compatible with Giant's OD2 steer tubes.
Where it get's tricky though is you run the risk of voiding your warranty should you opt out of having the LBS build the bike, which is an additional cost.
-
Tavelo is releasing an "Ultralight" version of their Arow for $2400. Yikes...
Really wondering if these increased prices are because of the contractions in the industry so they have to raise prices, or they think their product is equal to west brands so they want to price the same?
-
Really? But the hubs and spoking looks different.
As a bonus, the price for 9Velo seems better value to me.
At least from what I can see.
My 9Velo preference is the CD2.0 in 45mm. Less than 1200gr...
Wheelsfar.com
-
Really wondering if these increased prices are because of the contractions in the industry so they have to raise prices, or they think their product is equal to west brands so they want to price the same?
Keep in mind that retail price in china is 11500rmb(usd1600) and 14500rmb(usd2000), not pandapodium prices
And i think a lot of these chinese brand's target market are in china, not overseas so theyre priced accordingly to the market there
-
Chinese customers don't value chinese frames much higher than we do
-
What makes you so sure? I live in and race(not professionally) in china and i think otherwise. Sure, they often are not as popular as internationally known brands but they definitely have a larger following than internationally.
most of the top chinese professional teams are sponsored by chinese brands and a lot of the brands discussed on this forum actually sponsor a team
I went to hangzhou for a race last month(unfortunately cancelled last minute due to rain) and saw a few people tavelo frames being ridden
-
I think you may misunderstand a bit. I'm not talking about the opinion on velobuild here.
First off their prices are not insignificantly lower. A few $100 goes a long way at these pricepoints. Second, they're much more accessible.
I'm not saying they are bad bikes at all, I wouldn't mind riding one, just not worth the pricepoint along with all the other downsides that come with buying from the other side of the world.
Personally I value brands like seka, bross, pardus higher. I wonder how well know it is where tavelos come from.
Also from my tiny bit of auto-translated chinese forum and news experience, questions are raised when a domestic brand prices product a step higher.
-
Im not talking about velobuild either haha. Maybe we're misunderstanding each other. I dont think velobuild target domestic chinese market at all by the way. In fact, in my 5 years living here ive never seen anyone riding an unbranded open mold frame
Im talking about exactly the brands you listed. Tavelo, bross, pardus, seka, winspace, etc and even brands like onirii all sponsor professional teams here in china. These brands, whether using open mold or not, are all spending money on marketing, sponsorships and creating brand presence in china. Winspace even have a physical store
Chinese customers don't value chinese frames much higher than we do
So in response to this, yes i think they do
I'm not saying they are bad bikes at all, I wouldn't mind riding one, just not worth the pricepoint along with all the other downsides that come with buying from the other side of the world.
I totally get that. I definitely dont think i would either if i were still living outside of china!
My main point was targeted at people here and on ww questioning these 'increased prices' from brands like tavelo, bross and seka and quoting pandapodium prices
-
Wheelsfar.com
AWESOME!!
THANKS FOR LETTING ME KNOW
Not sure how I managed not to find it..
50mm in black should fit perfectly on the black Scultura
-
Keep in mind that retail price in china is 11500rmb(usd1600) and 14500rmb(usd2000), not pandapodium prices
And i think a lot of these chinese brand's target market are in china, not overseas so theyre priced accordingly to the market there
But this is way more expensive than any other catalogue frame from a Chinese brand.
I don't see how they can sell these at either the PP or domestic Chinese price. Disregarding the frame itself, just look at the paint jobs ... they look awful for this price.
-
I am guessing that the domestic market price is probably realistic for making and selling higher end frames right now. I doubt anyone is making a ton of money here, but they are all taking their piece.
The result might be that high end catalog frames like these don't make a ton of sense, and these brands might as well raise the price a couple hundred USD and do the full development, like the Seka Spear RDC which isnt that much cheaper than the European price for the Van Rysel RCR Pro frameset.
-
I got my T1550 during the black Friday sale so it was maybe around $1300 I cant remember. But either way I do not think I would ever spend over $1500 USD on a Chinese frame normally. The idea is that we get a lower price, but have the risk of little to no customer service/ warranty. These bikes over $1750 are pushing that current arrangement
-
I would pay that for some, not all
-
Preorder is now available on Panda podium, $1880 USD for the standard version and $2380 USD for the ultralight version... Pretty expensive..
This is pretty much in-line with SEKA's pricing for the exceed. When you consider you're getting similar spec to an SL8 or a Super-Six Evo for half the price, not bad. It's easy to balk at the price until you put up a spreadsheet of prices and weights and realize there just aren't more cost effective options.
Warranty, of course, is going to be the sticking point. It's easier to stomach losing $600-1000 over shit warranty. $2000 not so much. Thankfully I've had a good experience with SEKA on my end, hopeful that PP and tavelo provide a similar level of service.
-
But this is way more expensive than any other catalogue frame from a Chinese brand.
I don't see how they can sell these at either the PP or domestic Chinese price. Disregarding the frame itself, just look at the paint jobs ... they look awful for this price.
look at this graph and think about all the people that complain about the price of high end western bikes and components increasing over the years, yet people are still buying them. Just because theyre chinese doesnt mean they have to be 'cheap' to sell.
Search 'tavelo' on 小红书(redbook) and you can scroll for hours seeing all the people that buy and post pictures of their tavelo bikes if you dont believe me haha
Dont forget china has a population of 1.4+ billion. 3.5x united states. There are bound to be some people that like the paintjobs that you think are awful XD
-
The 3rd video of China Cycling on the Shanghai show says that Tavelo is a very frothy brand in China, with a huge social media following, sponsored teams and so on. So that must command a significant price premium, even if that's completely invisible to the west.
-
look at this graph and think about all the people that complain about the price of high end western bikes and components increasing over the years, yet people are still buying them. Just because theyre chinese doesnt mean they have to be 'cheap' to sell.
Search 'tavelo' on 小红书(redbook) and you can scroll for hours seeing all the people that buy and post pictures of their tavelo bikes if you dont believe me haha
Dont forget china has a population of 1.4+ billion. 3.5x united states. There are bound to be some people that like the paintjobs that you think are awful XD
I don't see how any of that is relevant. To reiterate: again, no other pret a porter molds are being sold this expensive by a Chinese brand ... and the existing customers are paying much less for the Attack than the Arrow. And it looks shite vs stuff like Seka / Bross etc.
-
Personally I think the Arow looks like a better frame design than the Seka Exceed and the Bross Zenith. The paint jobs are a little out there but I think the Arow does the best job striking the balance between aero and lightweight features for my tastes. The Arow is also (supposedly) a lighter frame than the Exceed or the Zenith. Seka’s spear looks like a better product, but I believe it will be more expensive. I get that this is a matter of personal taste, but my point is there really is a market for the Arow
-
The arow is literally a stevens arcalis front with a wider head tube, slightly different top tube, marginally different dimensions and a tavelo attack rear end
-
To reiterate: again, no other pret a porter molds are being sold this expensive by a Chinese brand
Not exactly true. Here are some examples in this price range:
Tavelo attack 9800(no bars) / 11800rmb('ice crack' paint job)
Tavelo arow 9800rmb(11500rmb with one piece bar)
Seka exceed 9990rmb
Elilee blize 10800rmb
Pardus spark evo 11000-13000rmb(resell price on 闲鱼. Not sold frameset only)
Winspace t1550 12500rmb
Tavelo arow SL 12800rmb(14500rmb with one piece bar)
Seka spear 15990rmb
Bross zenith plume 15999rmb
and the existing customers are paying much less for the Attack than the Arrow.
Attack and arow non SL are same price. SL is 3000rmb($415) more to save 110g. Pretty steep but im sure thats not going to stop people from buying it(in china)
And it looks shite vs stuff like Seka / Bross etc.
Thats just your opinion. Not a fact
-
The chris miller podcast from a day or 2 ago was interesting, giving the perspective of experienced racers with regards to expensive chinese brands with western backed aero claims. Among other things, the old "if it's expensive it's got to be good" was mentioned, and as cringe as it may be to some, it often rings true to many, and that's how some brands manage to command a premium for no tangible / dubious reason(s).
-
The overwhelming majority of frames I've been able to review were paid for out of pocket. At full price. I would love to review the new SEKA Spear or Tavelo Arow, but the price point is difficult no matter how excited I am for both of them.
I've actually been saving up to purchase one of these frames or the Bross Zenith. However, earlier this week I was offered a deal on an SL8 Pro (non S-Works) frameset. It wasn't a huge discount, but enough to sway me away from Tavelo/Seka/Bross.
And this is the conundrum I see customers facing. Spend a little more to get local bike shop support and a western brand warranty.
-
At $2K plus for US customers, you're starting to compete with Canyon's base model complete 105 bikes for $2800.
-
The overwhelming majority of frames I've been able to review were paid for out of pocket. At full price. I would love to review the new SEKA Spear or Tavelo Arow, but the price point is difficult no matter how excited I am for both of them.
I've actually been saving up to purchase one of these frames or the Bross Zenith. However, earlier this week I was offered a deal on an SL8 Pro (non S-Works) frameset. It wasn't a huge discount, but enough to sway me away from Tavelo/Seka/
Patty,
What are your current bikes in your arsenal? Is the T1500 the only one you keep around?
-
Patty,
What are your current bikes in your arsenal? Is the T1500 the only one you keep around?
Current Fleet - This is abhorrent :o
Winspace T1500
'23 Giant Propel Advanced Pro
Tavelo Attack
'22 Specialized Allez Sprint
VeloBuild 268
Yishun R086D
Polygon Helios A8X
Still working through long-term thoughts on most of these, but the Allez Sprint needs to be sold soon.
-
Actually I must apologise, I misunderstood what tavelo is and can understand their prices now. They're not a bike company, they're a marketing company selling bikes, it's like specialized on steroids. They charge this much because they can. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the value proposition product is if it sells.
Their exorbitant markup for non-chinese market is because every frame they sell here potentially loses them eyes in their main market and because they don't really need us the sales quantity losses are balanced out by the suckers that will pay this much.
-
Current Fleet - This is abhorrent :o
Winspace T1500
'23 Giant Propel Advanced Pro
Tavelo Attack
'22 Specialized Allez Sprint
VeloBuild 268
Yishun R086D
Polygon Helios A8X
Still working through long-term thoughts on most of these, but the Allez Sprint needs to be sold soon.
do you sell the frames your finished with? Ive been wandering how much do you usually get back for them in america? I saw on ww someone was only able to sell their seka exeed for 25% of how much they paid!
-
Their exorbitant markup for non-chinese market is because..
Just to be clear, its not exactly tavelo's markup. Its pandapodium's markup
As i stated above,
Tavelo arow retail price is 9800rmb (USD$1360) and Pandapodium's price is $1880
SL is 12800rmb (USD$1770) and PP's price is $2380
And i would guess Pandapodium are getting the frames for wholesale price(less than retail)
If Tavelo wanted to sell their frames internationally, they could sell them for closer to domestic retail and still be making a profit(they already make profit selling at their domestic retail price). But PP's gotta make money too hence the 'exorbitant markup'
-
Actually I must apologise, I misunderstood what tavelo is and can understand their prices now. They're not a bike company, they're a marketing company selling bikes, it's like specialized on steroids. They charge this much because they can. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the value proposition product is if it sells.
Their exorbitant markup for non-chinese market is because every frame they sell here potentially loses them eyes in their main market and because they don't really need us the sales quantity losses are balanced out by the suckers that will pay this much.
I asked them for the same painting Patrick Lino has and they said it's custom and 500$ extra. LMAO... adding a little black fade to their white frame is costly. Those guys are out of touch.
-
Actually I must apologise, I misunderstood what tavelo is and can understand their prices now. They're not a bike company, they're a marketing company selling bikes, it's like specialized on steroids. They charge this much because they can. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the value proposition product is if it sells.
Their exorbitant markup for non-chinese market is because every frame they sell here potentially loses them eyes in their main market and because they don't really need us the sales quantity losses are balanced out by the suckers that will pay this much.
I really don't get what the hand-wringing is over the markup. They are charging what they think the market will bear for the perceived quality and service.
I've bought a Lightcarbon LCG071 and a Seka Exceed; the Seka Exceed cost me around 3x more and frankly I think I got my money's worth with the Exceed. The finishing kit on a Seka is much nicer, and every part included is far-superior quality spec. They replaced my whole damn frame (and even painted a new frame just for me with an out-of-production color) at no extra cost after I discovered an issue with it over 6 months after buying it. It's just a much nicer bike with much better after-sales service than what I'd ever expect from Velobuild or Lightcarbon. I absolutely think that a company that essentially exists to retail, market, paint, and (hopefully) QC frames can add enough value to justify a markup like this, and I also think that if PP adds enough value through after-sales service, then their markup is justified too. (note: I still haven't seen evidence that they really do enhance the after-sales service)
The calculus here is easy: is the added risk/hassle of going through a Chinese company worth the cost-savings when compared to buying an equivalent-spec frame locally? Different people will make either decision depending on their circumstances, and hopefully PP and Tavelo have found a price and level of service that adequately suits the needs of many people making this decision.
-
Actually I must apologise, I misunderstood what tavelo is and can understand their prices now. They're not a bike company, they're a marketing company selling bikes, it's like specialized on steroids. They charge this much because they can. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the value proposition product is if it sells.
Their exorbitant markup for non-chinese market is because every frame they sell here potentially loses them eyes in their main market and because they don't really need us the sales quantity losses are balanced out by the suckers that will pay this much.
I think this is overly cynical.
Ultimately, all carbon road bikes are luxury goods. Even the cheapest Tiagra build. So there is some form of "value", but it's not the typical add up all the components on a spreadsheet and divide by $. A lot of it is intangible. The big selling point for Western brands IMO is pro Peleton credibility. If your bike is in the TdF or other big pro races, it's legit and the sky is the limit on pricing. Unless I'm mistaken, that's exactly how Giant and Canyon went from run of the mill OEMs to premium bike sellers. In fact the only big Western brand I can think of that isn't in the pro circuit is Factor.
So IMO all brands like SEKA and Tavelo need to do to legitimize their brands is get in the pro circuit. They don't even have to be that good. Personally IDGAF about pro cycling nor would I pay more for a bike on TV. But someone could easily come up with reasons why even a cheap Aliexpress build is a waste of money.
-
I asked them for the same painting Patrick Lino has and they said it's custom and 500$ extra. LMAO... adding a little black fade to their white frame is costly. Those guys are out of touch.
The main reason I chose my paint color was because Tavelo said my color (on my Attack frame) was standard option, and most other colors required an extra fee. I wonder if because the paint options for the new Arow are obviously different than the Attack. So it would have to be a one off paint job?
I'm gonna save my brand bashing for another day until I can get more insight. But $2000 frames, $500 paint options, no local support, and Chinese brands proving that optically they are not targeting the Western customers. A big brand purchase is making more and more sense now...
-
Current Fleet - This is abhorrent :o
Winspace T1500
'23 Giant Propel Advanced Pro
Tavelo Attack
'22 Specialized Allez Sprint
VeloBuild 268
Yishun R086D
Polygon Helios A8X
Someone buy this man a bigger garage
-
Damn this is too much :-X
Just to be clear, its not exactly tavelo's markup. Its pandapodium's markup
As i stated above,
Tavelo arow retail price is 9800rmb (USD$1360) and Pandapodium's price is $1880
SL is 12800rmb (USD$1770) and PP's price is $2380
And i would guess Pandapodium are getting the frames for wholesale price(less than retail)
If Tavelo wanted to sell their frames internationally, they could sell them for closer to domestic retail and still be making a profit(they already make profit selling at their domestic retail price). But PP's gotta make money too hence the 'exorbitant markup'
-
A bit much of negativity here…blaming companies to make money especially when considering the „mark up” of western brands. Which most likely have the same origin in the Eastern.
Anyways…from my perspective here in Europe…
PP prices are all incl. … so no more charges for shipment and taxes.
And here, US brands are also insanely overpriced e.g. Spec. and SRAM…so
Besides that I had a very positive experience dealing with PP.
And the Tavelo Attack … or Adept frame is sold here under western branding for 9000$ Dura Ace equi.
the chinacycling YT about Shanghai bike show and the people behind the brands was very interesting regarding their goals and visions.
Cheers
-
I think PP offers value mainly on the QC aspect and communication after that it’s up to each individual to decide what is the value of service and if it aligns with PP mark up. The problem is that in a depressed used market or even brand new with 50% off being the rage, the value proposition of chiner built is a lot harder to justify especially once considering resale value.
-
I think PP offers value mainly on the QC aspect and communication after that it’s up to each individual to decide what is the value of service and if it aligns with PP mark up. The problem is that in a depressed used market or even brand new with 50% off being the rage, the value proposition of chiner built is a lot harder to justify especially once considering resale value.
QC: Panda podium inspects themselves every item they sell? There's no way, right?
-
The frames, that’s what I gathered from one of his video…
-
The frames, that’s what I gathered from one of his video…
It might be true but I highly doubt it for various reasons. It it doesn't clearly say on the website you can safely assume that they don't.
-
A bit much of negativity here…blaming companies to make money especially when considering the „mark up” of western brands. Which most likely have the same origin in the Eastern.
Anyways…from my perspective here in Europe…
PP prices are all incl. … so no more charges for shipment and taxes.
And here, US brands are also insanely overpriced e.g. Spec. and SRAM…so
Besides that I had a very positive experience dealing with PP.
And the Tavelo Attack … or Adept frame is sold here under western branding for 9000$ Dura Ace equi.
the chinacycling YT about Shanghai bike show and the people behind the brands was very interesting regarding their goals and visions.
Cheers
I don't think people are being overly negative, just objectively questioning the value of these frames.
For example I just ordered a TanTan frame set. For $800 or whatever with custom paint etc. I'm OK with being pretty much on my own for support and losing damn near all the frame's value on resale. Western brands bikes are already hurting value wise- how much do you think a $2000+ lesser known Chinese brand frame will go for on the used market? It's kind of a false economy IMO
-
Maybe reselling is a point….however not for me…and besides that I would never buy a used carbon frame.
It‘s just nearly impossible so judge, what „went“ into it…
But hey…it’s all about everybody’s own preferences….
I just find it awkward to blame Chinese companies for evolving into kind of their own boutique styles and brandings.
With all it’s downsides…
…maybe we see a Tour Team sponsored by a Chinese bike company in some 3-5 years…at least that’s what their visions seem to be
-
QC: Panda podium inspects themselves every item they sell? There's no way, right?
Maybe "binning" occurs where Western re-branders like PP, Planet X, Vitus, Ribble, Ritte, probably Enve, et al get the frames on the better side of the QC bell curve?
-
It might be true but I highly doubt it for various reasons. It it doesn't clearly say on the website you can safely assume that they don't.
It was very clearly stated last week in one of the video, for the specific brand he was talking at the time it had “less rejection during our QC process than others”
Not saying it’s true, just putting context to me statement
-
Maybe reselling is a point….however not for me…and besides that I would never buy a used carbon frame.
It‘s just nearly impossible so judge, what „went“ into it…
But hey…it’s all about everybody’s own preferences….
I just find it awkward to blame Chinese companies for evolving into kind of their own boutique styles and brandings.
With all it’s downsides…
…maybe we see a Tour Team sponsored by a Chinese bike company in some 3-5 years…at least that’s what their visions seem to be
I mean, Giant went from a kind of no name OEM to a top road bike brand by doing 2 things. 1 getting bikes in the Tour, and 2 getting into brick and mortar stores for better sales and service support. That's pretty much all these brands have to do to justify what they are charging.
-
Giant was founded 1972, started selling brand Giant bikes 1981…
-
Maybe "binning" occurs where Western re-branders like PP, Planet X, Vitus, Ribble, Ritte, probably Enve, et al get the frames on the better side of the QC bell curve?
Sorry what? Panda Podium is just a retailer and the current Ritte and Enve are bike brands with unique products. I don't think anything is being binned differently between Tavelo products let alone between open molds and Ritte or Enve bikes.
Has anyone even confirmed that this Tavelo is an open mold that you can buy through a different brand like the Attack was?
While I could believe binning is done during initial production runs to get new bikes out for race teams, this doesnt make sense as a general practice because it assumes that the QC would be good enough to sort the frames at a per frame level and that the factories would be willing to incur that cost on an ongoing basis.
On the other hand, I think its more surprising that XDS and Pardus have not tried to go more international given their involvement in the chinese olympic team efforts. That said, if a company goes big into road racing, I would bet on Farsports.
-
I mean, Giant went from a kind of no name OEM to a top road bike brand by doing 2 things. 1 getting bikes in the Tour, and 2 getting into brick and mortar stores for better sales and service support. That's pretty much all these brands have to do to justify what they are charging.
LMAO did u just compare GIANT to some company selling OEM frames under their branding? Kek
-
LMAO did u just compare GIANT to some company selling OEM frames under their branding? Kek
I vividly recall a time when Giant was just a new upstart brand selling cheap bikes.
Back then my friend even sniggered "what kind of a name is Giant"
-
I vividly recall a time when Giant was just a new upstart brand selling cheap bikes.
Back then my friend even sniggered "what kind of a name is Giant"
Giant has a giant factory and makes carbon bikes for half of the world. Tavelo is a Chinese boutique brand that sells frames with their own logo. Two different stories.
-
Does anyone know what major brand Tavelo is 'tied' to?
On the Chris Miller show, they said that Tavelo is the house brand of a well known factory that produces a well known brand/brands.
Too bad about they paint jobs they offer on the Arow...pretty hideous. Terrible color combinations and some weird squiggly doodles on the front?? :o
-
Tavelo is its own brand, they just buy and brand frames from adapt. Adapt develop the frames and offer them to brands. The Attack was sold under a couple other brands but the Arow might only be sold under Tavelo as they move so many units they might get exclusivity on the frame. They were founded by a bunch of former Winspace employees, but they themselves do zero development, it's all adapt.
-
I personally really like the designs that Adapt churns out. Since Adapt doesnt do direct sales (though I thought someone here from Canada did a direct order in the past), Tavelo is actually the cheapest way to get your hands on an Adapt frame except for maybe the Speeder SC-R55D. I dont know pricing info for that but it looks a lot like the Adapt frame they teased on Facebook along side the Arow as new for 2024.
There was a rumor that Speeder was also the OEM behind Winspace frames--but i had thought that Speeder was more of development studio with fractional factory ownership. In any case, the Speeder forks have a very solid reputation now are are known for producing forks that relabeled for use by many brands either for sale through framebuilder supply or as the OEM fork option. There are $6000+ custom framesets using Speeder forks.
However, it wouldn't make sense that Speeder would be selling a frame designed by Adapt that competes with Tavelo if they were the "well known factory" and Tavelo was their in-house brand.
-
While some of the information in this thread is incorrect, I can say irrespective of where Winspace/Tavelo source their frames that the T1550 is great. The Tavelo Attack is also great, if not better than the T1500 in terms of road refinement.
I'm not sure if I'll get my hands on the latest Tavelo Arow since the price is a bit steep for a Chinese bike. However, I expect that frame to outclass the Attack by a small margin.
Sidenote: Winspace's gravel frame is also sold under ICAN's brand as well. And probably for slightly cheaper.
-
Is the Speeder SC-R55D the same as that Hygge Aero frame posted in another thread?
-
I don't think the Speeder is the same at the Hygge.
Back in the day there were only 2-3 carbon factories selling open molds. Flybike is one that still exists and seem to sell primarily through Carbonda. There was a factory called Gotobike which owns or owned the trademark for the Winspace name. Make what you will of that--but trying untangle who makes what frame and who designed what is, in my opinion not that useful. The relevant thing is whether or not you trust the brand to work with you and whether or not you think the combination of product quality and support will meet your needs.
What i do know is that I've been really happy with Speeder sourced parts and they sell a lot of parts, particularly forks. If I were to look for a partner to coordinate manufacturing and finalize design for a carbon bike part, Speeder would be part of the first outreach. However, they are primarily going to be more of a B2B type transaction while Tavelo appears to be investing quite a bit into the people and infrastructure to support consumers.
I have no idea if Speeder make their own bikes, their business arrangement with the factory or even if the frames and other parts come from the same factory. I THINK their new bike looks like an Adapt design and other than a bit more tire clearance and the bb86 spec looks pretty nice.
-
Tavelo is its own brand, they just buy and brand frames from adapt. Adapt develop the frames and offer them to brands. The Attack was sold under a couple other brands but the Arow might only be sold under Tavelo as they move so many units they might get exclusivity on the frame. They were founded by a bunch of former Winspace employees, but they themselves do zero development, it's all adapt.
You are wrong about this information. They do not buy any frames from adapt.
-
Do explain. Because Joe directly told me adapt develop the frames and offer them to brands and every Tavelo frame was up on the adapt website first.
-
https://www.oak.cc/bikes/p/twilight-white
-
Do explain. Because Joe directly told me adapt develop the frames and offer them to brands and every Tavelo frame was up on the adapt website first.
I can tell you first hand this is not an adapt frame. That’s all I can say.
-
I think I am with Patrick, (BTW a big fan and subscriber) on how with the increase of prices for most major direct to consumer Chinese brands, big Western brands seem to make more sense for more people. However I think there is this middle ground with companies like Winspace who have really started to build a brand, who yes have raised their prices but always have a discount code or pretty aggressive sales or package deals where a frame really will not be $1700-$2000 dollars. I recently got a 1st gen T1550 Disc w/ Zero SL bars with UPS shipping for $1602. I commonly hear how people got their T1550 frames during Black Friday for $1300. I bought my original T1500 frame and bars for $1500, so to pay $102 more this time around for a slightly better product in the T1550 isn't terrible one bit. I sold my T1500 with bars in 2022 after a season of use to someone for basically $600, thus 60% is steep, granted I recently sold my Aethos fact 10R frameset that I bought new for $3000 and got back $1250 thus basically hitting that same 60% deprecation after one year mark. Where I think Winspace has a better chance is that they do have some US warehousing, there customer service is pretty good, and the more key this is that they have US dealers. In my state of NY thye have 6 dealers and I know one is ACME Bikes in Katonah which is known to be a high end shop that sells everything from Moots, Time, ENVE, Parlee, Colnago, Look and I guess now Winspace. I think the pivotal thing Winspace did was sell a crap load of wheels during the pandemic, not to mention their wheels at the time were not only a terrific value but performed insanely well. I can't go to any semi big group ride and not see at least a couple riders with Winspace wheels here in NY. In 2022 no one new about the T1500, but now in 2024 after I picked up my newly built T1550 I had 6 people come up to me and ask me about the bike and telling me how much they liked it and how they saw the same exact bike on Grant's GCPerformances chanel or so on. I simply don't hear or see people talking about Seka or other high-end Chinese D2C bikes that cost $2k+ for a frame. I am not saying they don't have a place and can't take off here in America I just think again on any big group ride or shall I say big "money" group ride sponsored by either a company or a LBS, her in NY you mostly see waves of SWORK Tarmac SL 8. So I doubt you would see a Seka at one of those but at a recent PAS Normal Studio ride I did see one Devel and two Elves bikes. I was very tempted to bring my T1550 but decided to go with my MY22 Scott Foil RC because I am still playing with my fit. I think while Colnago is an amazing brand it's a heritage brand and what Tadej did for that brand riding that V4RS even though it's not the "best" bike is insane. My buddy has a V3RS and countless people came up to him saying how much they liked his bikes and these are riders on SWORKS, Pinarellos, Factors and ect. Point being, I think if any of these Chinese D2C brands want to really hit the US market they need to get elite athletes on them or really hit the local sponsored group ride scene where influencers are riding them
-
I think I am with Patrick, (BTW a big fan and subscriber) on how with the increase of prices for most major direct to consumer Chinese brands, big Western brands seem to make more sense for more people. However I think there is this middle ground with companies like Winspace who have really started to build a brand, who yes have raised their prices but always have a discount code or pretty aggressive sales or package deals where a frame really will not be $1700-$2000 dollars. I recently got a 1st gen T1550 Disc w/ Zero SL bars with UPS shipping for $1602. I commonly hear how people got their T1550 frames during Black Friday for $1300. I bought my original T1500 frame and bars for $1500, so to pay $102 more this time around for a slightly better product in the T1550 isn't terrible one bit. I sold my T1500 with bars in 2022 after a season of use to someone for basically $600, thus 60% is steep, granted I recently sold my Aethos fact 10R frameset that I bought new for $3000 and got back $1250 thus basically hitting that same 60% deprecation after one year mark. Where I think Winspace has a better chance is that they do have some US warehousing, there customer service is pretty good, and the more key this is that they have US dealers. In my state of NY thye have 6 dealers and I know one is ACME Bikes in Katonah which is known to be a high end shop that sells everything from Moots, Time, ENVE, Parlee, Colnago, Look and I guess now Winspace. I think the pivotal thing Winspace did was sell a crap load of wheels during the pandemic, not to mention their wheels at the time were not only a terrific value but performed insanely well. I can't go to any semi big group ride and not see at least a couple riders with Winspace wheels here in NY. In 2022 no one new about the T1500, but now in 2024 after I picked up my newly built T1550 I had 6 people come up to me and ask me about the bike and telling me how much they liked it and how they saw the same exact bike on Grant's GCPerformances chanel or so on. I simply don't hear or see people talking about Seka or other high-end Chinese D2C bikes that cost $2k+ for a frame. I am not saying they don't have a place and can't take off here in America I just think again on any big group ride or shall I say big "money" group ride sponsored by either a company or a LBS, her in NY you mostly see waves of SWORK Tarmac SL 8. So I doubt you would see a Seka at one of those but at a recent PAS Normal Studio ride I did see one Devel and two Elves bikes. I was very tempted to bring my T1550 but decided to go with my MY22 Scott Foil RC because I am still playing with my fit. I think while Colnago is an amazing brand it's a heritage brand and what Tadej did for that brand riding that V4RS even though it's not the "best" bike is insane. My buddy has a V3RS and countless people came up to him saying how much they liked his bikes and these are riders on SWORKS, Pinarellos, Factors and ect. Point being, I think if any of these Chinese D2C brands want to really hit the US market they need to get elite athletes on them or really hit the local sponsored group ride scene where influencers are riding them
i completely understand and get what u r saying. i do agree and disagree with you on some points. Is there room in the marketplace for the Chinese bikes I say yes. Lets remember that a lot of these companies are OEM and are just starting a side brand to facilitate the Asian market which is way bigger then NA. the prices of a 2000 frame I don't see as a hurdle as there are so many other brands who charge way more. Are they better NO. I ride Factor bikes bc no one was riding them 4 years ago. I would never ride a spec or trek as they don't provide anything great. I only used to ride Pinarellos but came to realize that their bikes were way too heavy for my liking. I have a spear on order from Seka because no one has these in Canada yet. I hope to keep it that way as I'm not a sheep and follow the hurd with sl8. I'm 49 and i do believe you pay for what you get. My 2 cents.
-
I totally agree with you about being counter culture. I have my mainstream Scott Foil RC but I did want another bike that I wouldn't be devastated if I laid it down and had to shell out for a whole new frame but also different from the sea of Tarmacs, Pinarellos, and other high-end bikes that are in the local group ride scene here. I think the T1550 is a talking point during rides for me and quite frankly when people ask how I like it, I always tell them straight up it's basically just as good if not better in some ways than any Scott or whatever bike.
-
yeah man
with age personally for me u stop drinking the big brand BS. And you learn all bikes are basically the same. It really comes down to the rider I just hope the spear I ordered is stiff, which I'm sure I wont be disappointed.
-
I have been looking to upgrade my Giant TCR for something more aero for a looooong time and I've been following this sub for some time, hoping to find a good deal. Man, I feel in love with the look of the Tavelo Arow!
But that price? For just a frame, all the way from China? I ended up with a new Merida Reacto 4000, with Shimano 105 12s - just under 2200 USD. That is almost the price of just the Tavelo frame..
In Chinertown maner, I did get a nice set of 60 mm Elitewheels from AliX and the Magene PES P505 - crazy good value on both!
-
I can tell you first hand this is not an adapt frame. That’s all I can say.
Wow you cant tell more? You think you have some first hand secret knowledge LMAO? :)
Tavelo is an in house brand of Qi Xing Sports, and Adapt is other brand they provide with frames. So yeah Tavelo Tavelo is not buying from Adapt, it is produced by the same company. That's why frame under Adapt brand is named QX-B01. So technically Tavelo is getting frames from mother company Qi Xing Sport.
-
Wow you cant tell more? You think you have some first hand secret knowledge LMAO? :)
Tavelo is an in house brand of Qi Xing Sports, and Adapt is their other brand. So yeah Tavelo Tavelo is not buying from Adapt, it is produced by the same company. That's why frame under Adapt brand is named QX-B01. So technically Tavelo is getting frames from mother company Qi Xing Sport.
You can lmao all the way home. You have some of your in for right and some wrong. Tavelo and adapt are not the same company for one. Yes the adapt bike is the same as the Tavelo arrow. How that happened I will leave up to you to make your own stories up and look clever here.
-
You can lmao all the way home. You have some of your in for right and some wrong. Tavelo and adapt are not the same company for one. Yes the adapt bike is the same as the Tavelo arrow. How that happened I will leave up to you to make your own stories up and look clever here.
The only one who wants to look clever and act as he possesses some secret insider knowledge is you. You just joined the forum and already can't even contribute. For your information forum is to share knowledge with other users to help. If u don't wanna share just stfu and stop bragging.
As for tavelo this is an in house brand from Qi Xing sports and they also have other customers and companies who they provide with frames... And one of them is adapt. it's not secret knowledge, so stop acting like it is and you are an enlightened one
-
Yes the adapt bike is the same as the Tavelo arrow.
Cool, at least you can acknowledge that.
How that happened I will leave up to you to make your own stories up and look clever here.
How that happened? We know how that happened. Adapt makes the open mold bike and sells it to other brands, Tavelo being one of them. 1of1, Nich, Oak being others. Pat linked the same frame sold by Oak. It's not news that Adapt is making these.
https://www.oak.cc/bikes/p/twilight-white
-
Cool, at least you can acknowledge that.
How that happened? We know how that happened. Adapt makes the open mold bike and sells it to other brands, Tavelo being one of them. 1of1, Nich, Oak being others. Pat linked the same frame sold by Oak. It's not news that Adapt is making these.
https://www.oak.cc/bikes/p/twilight-white
Everything is explained in the screenshot below. Not any secret knowledge like James dean would like to maybe feel important or something kek
-
The original argument was that $2000 USD is egregious for an "open mold" frame. I'm on board with that...
Knowing what we know now about Tavelo (Attack and Arow) that it's not an open mold in the traditional sense, but does in fact share and license designs to other micro-brands, does any of this change the way we feel about Tavelo's prices?
I'm trying to understand what this trend in Chinese Brands moving upmarket means for Western customers. Folks will tell me that for $2000 they'd rather spend a little more and just buy a Giant TCR or Trek Emonda SL frameset. I 100% understand this from a value and warranty perspective. However, I just don't believe anyone who truly is looking to purchase a TCR/Emonda are even cross shopping those with Tavelo. Not to mention both are climbing bikes.
Another point is rising prices help offset the cost of engineering, design, and production. Is that really true? Is it just corporate greed?
I'm now four years into my cycling journey here in Chicago. And despite starting during the biggest cycling boom in recent years, I have yet to see a single Chinese branded frame out on our local roads. Not even when these frames used to cost $1200-$1500. A couple of Winspace Hyper wheels here and there and some Farsports (Wheelsfar) custom wheels. This season I helped a local crit team secure a deal on R12 team bikes from Yoeleo. But that's basically it. Essentially no one here is buying into the Chinese wave at all.
This just highlights how niche all of this stuff is. Our observable reality dictates where people actually spend their money.
Sidenote: I also think spending $5500 on a S-Works SL8 frameset is egregious. Factor Bikes sells their latest Ostro VAM frameset for the same price, but at least the frame includes handlebars, Ceramicspeed bottom bracket and bearings, and spare parts for everything. If you value those things.
-
When the prices are getting this close, there is absolutely cross shopping happening. I'm currently in a state of which frame to buy and I'm definitely split between building up a OEM and established brand like Specialized, Giant, Canyon, etc. and feel like I'm really being pushed to buy the latter.
I've owned 7 OEM/Generic frames over the past 10 years and 8 established brand frames of various materials and types. I very much disagree that OEMs offer the same sort of ride or performance that the most branded frames do, I think they can be very close, but there has always been something lacking in how the frame feels in general. When you combine that compromise of a slightly inferior ride, with a price that is getting closer and closer to brands, it really stops you and makes you say 'what's the point?'
As far as the group ride OEM absence...I think a lot of that has to do with the sort of personality that gets into these activities and there is going to be a strong social element of "keeping up with the joneses" and these activities are very much an 'upper class' sort of thing. I think there's going to be hordes of people that are more into just riding alone that aren't going to be pressured by the social aspect of showing up with some bike that cost $3000 to build instead of some swanky $7000 ride. There's also the aspect that OEMs generally require (at least in the US since they lack distribution) the rider to be adept at building their own bike up, which is not really normal for most cyclists.
I think the price increase is from a couple things:
Trying to establish a brand
Inflation
Establishing a brand now might be sort of a pre-emptive move as I think some hefty trade war actions and tariffs are in the future between China and the USA. If it's branded as 'expensive now' the cut to profit won't be as bad, or it wont look as bad compared to other OEMs which don't have branding, but are suddenly the same price as ones that do have a bit of branding.
-
I find it always a bit weird, when people blaming Chinese to establish and developing their own brand and confidence, whilst being completely fine with the absolute insane marketing bling bling of western companies.
As I am in Europe, US top tier frames are simply…nuts, pricewise….
So when I am comparing let’s say Tavelo with high end, or even mid tier prices, it’s still half or a third of it.
And please let’s not forget….even combining US + EU market size….China is bigger than both….
-
Everything is explained in the screenshot below. Not any secret knowledge like James dean would like to maybe feel important or something kek
great screenshot. It Cleary explains that Tavelo sold the mold to adaptr. Guess some cant read
-
As far as the group ride OEM absence...I think a lot of that has to do with the sort of personality that gets into these activities and there is going to be a strong social element of "keeping up with the joneses" and these activities are very much an 'upper class' sort of thing. I think there's going to be hordes of people that are more into just riding alone that aren't going to be pressured by the social aspect of showing up with some bike that cost $3000 to build instead of some swanky $7000 ride. There's also the aspect that OEMs generally require (at least in the US since they lack distribution) the rider to be adept at building their own bike up, which is not really normal for most cyclists.
I think the price increase is from a couple things:
Trying to establish a brand
Inflation
Establishing a brand now might be sort of a pre-emptive move as I think some hefty trade war actions and tariffs are in the future between China and the USA. If it's branded as 'expensive now' the cut to profit won't be as bad, or it wont look as bad compared to other OEMs which don't have branding, but are suddenly the same price as ones that do have a bit of branding.
Even in my city of Los Angeles, the majority of cyclists skew towards a certain demographic. The only times I've seen a Chinese frameset were from younger cyclists who weren't locked into a brand and a bike shop affiliation. Seriously, there's a certain social pressure to spend $$$ and look the part, as opposed to building actual fitness. Also I've been on a bunch of group rides and the majority of mechanical issues could have been avoided with simple maintenance. Bike shops want to keep their customers mechanically oblivious so they can charge $100 USD to tune a customer's rear derailleur. Building a bike is rocket science at this point for most people.
In the US, I don't really see road cycling as a positive growth market. Gravel seems much more popular and even that's a saturated market.
-
great screenshot. It Cleary explains that Tavelo sold the mold to adaptr. Guess some cant read
Just stop and go chase a cloud elsewhere champ.Being a clown is not what will bring u fame here. I know you wanted to feel important claiming you got some insider knowledge and shit, but yeah ... Let's say it's time to get down to earth champ.
-
Just stop and go chase a cloud elsewhere champ.Being a clown is not what will bring u fame here. I know you wanted to feel important claiming you got some insider knowledge and shit, but yeah ... Let's say it's time to get down to earth champ.
Clearly you have bigger issues. Go debate with someone who cares.
My real question to all is who has tried the arrow and can share a review to how it rides?
-
I find it always a bit weird, when people blaming Chinese to establish and developing their own brand and confidence, whilst being completely fine with the absolute insane marketing bling bling of western companies.
As I am in Europe, US top tier frames are simply…nuts, pricewise….
So when I am comparing let’s say Tavelo with high end, or even mid tier prices, it’s still half or a third of it.
And please let’s not forget….even combining US + EU market size….China is bigger than both….
The lightweight Tavelo is $2400 and 800g+ (it's listed as 700g unpainted in small, which always winds up being 100-170g more in reality).
The non S-Works SL8 frameset is $3500 and just under 800g painted.
granted you get a handlebar with the Tavelo, but that's not really a massive plus since the value of that really isn't anything better than a cheap bar from Ali in consumers eyes. When you're dumping that much cash into something, factoring things like resale become huge, with the Tavelo there is going to be very little resale where as you can see years old Specialized stuff still selling for a lot of money used on places like Buycycle, Ebay, etc.
A Giant Propel frameset is $2,800...
-
I'd strongly recommend waiting for a knowledgeable independent review of the QX-B01 / Arow before spending as much as is being asked, at least for the Tavelo version. There are things that are considerably less than good about it.
-
Peak Torque has one in right now. Said in yt comments it's a dog.
-
Peak Torque has one in right now. Said in yt comments it's a dog.
He's shared some stuff on his Patreon. It does not look good ...
-
He's shared some stuff on his Patreon. It does not look good ...
Do you reckon Peak Torque meant this from a Peak Torque level of scrutiny? Or even from a general consumer perspective?
-
Peak Torque has one in right now. Said in yt comments it's a dog.
Do you have a link to the review. I’m considering purchasing the arrow
-
This is exactly the issue with these Chinese bikes. As much as I love them they hold absolutely no resale value.
-
Whao…now descending down the path of very objective and scientific reviews from hear say, „like a dog“
-
Why is it named Arow? Such an awkward word.
-
Do you reckon Peak Torque meant this from a Peak Torque level of scrutiny? Or even from a general consumer perspective?
What I've seen it's garbage from both. I'm not going to post his Patreon stuff here. So if people want to see it, pay for it. If you're considering this frame soon, I think it's worth it for you ... since I don't think his full review will be that soon.
-
What I've seen it's garbage from both. I'm not going to post his Patreon stuff here. So if people want to see it, pay for it. If you're considering this frame soon, I think it's worth it for you ... since I don't think his full review will be that soon.
I'm sure I'll go back on my word in 2025. But I've probably reached the end of my Chinese bike review life cycle. My intentions were to use the Tavelo Arow as sort of my final dance. And maybe even replace my Giant Propel. Most likely I will consolidate my fleet and focus on just a few key frames from the major carriers. My mental will be better for it, and I'm certain the wife would be thrilled LoL
Brands typically send their wheels out for free in exchange for reviews. The margins are low enough. Frames on other hand not so much. At least not for me because I'm a small time YouTuber compared to my more established brethren. About 90% of the frames on my channel I've had to pay for and it's getting expensive. Well, it's always been expensive. And I still have to source my own groupsets, power meters, and other components.
So a $2000 Chinese frameset for the purpose of reviewing is a tough pill to swallow at my level. I'm sure I would feel much different if this was intended to be a long-term bike. The two American pro crit dudes racing on the Tavelo Arow have nothing but good things to say about the frame when I met them 2 weeks ago. But just like me, there's gonna be some bias of course.
-
Whao…now descending down the path of very objective and scientific reviews from hear say, „like a dog“
All reviews are subjective. A review is just an opinion, after all.
This is exactly the issue with these Chinese bikes. As much as I love them they hold absolutely no resale value.
Yep, I'm getting ready to sell a Chinese build and I'm basically pricing it like a bunch of parts with no frameset. So you either have to be in one for the long haul (I had this one for like 5 years) or be ready to get next to nothing back at resale time. So the total cost of ownership on a $2K Chinese frame is higher than a $2K Western frame, at least in the west
-
All reviews are subjective. A review is just an opinion, after all.
You didn‘t get my point, did you…?
Of course it is not about a so called review or experience…
But it’s about people posting things from hear say, not even get a glance on something but repeat a line
out of context from another source…
Anyhow, would be great to return to some real life feedback and less bs bingo and $$$ blame…
-
FWIW Jesse Coyle from The Nero Show has a Tavelo and seems to quite like it.
Peak Torque is a great channel but some of his ideas seem a little strange. He was really ragging on a Yoleo gravel frame he had because of toe overlap, I think that's not really such an issue for most people riding that style of frame as they are really doing 'road riding on dirt' rather than MTB-lite where toe overlap becomes an issue. He also seems really invested in promoting the Classified hub which is something that makes no sense to me (expensive, heavier than FD, locks you into one wheelset, relatively complex, potentially less efficient etc all to get away from something that is so simple, reliable and proven...seems like it would be a nightmare from an engineers perspective like his and another solution in search of a largely made up problem).
-
You didn‘t get my point, did you…?
Of course it is not about a so called review or experience…
But it’s about people posting things from hear say, not even get a glance on something but repeat a line
out of context from another source…
Anyhow, would be great to return to some real life feedback and less bs bingo and $$$ blame…
Huh? How is Peak Torque's experience with the frame not real life feedback? Some people like the frame, some don't... what's real or not isn't dependent on whether or not you agree with it.
This is why I said reviews are subjective. I personally feel like Peak Torque gets off on reminding everyone how smart he is rather than just breaking his insight down to a simple and useful level. And I say this as a mechanical engineer myself. But I still think his content provides value, even if I don't agree with his approach or opinions at times.
-
One last time…and I am totally happy with anyone’s opinion.
My point is, that you cannot show me PT review here, but only lines from someone who read something somewhere else.
If you say, it’s a dog…because of this and that…ya, happy to read and appreciate you sharing experiences.
But I feel that lines as „it’s a dog“, „doesn’t look good (what he says)“ is a very low claim to be happy with.
In a world full of (un)social media BS flooding our brains I felt this place had/has a higher standard at least when
people sharing their own thoughts with what we love…riding bikes and new stuff.
Cheers
-
Well Adapt and Tavelo are at the same address in Xiamen anyway, its likely Adapt who OEM have just set up there own brand like Winspace did. Obviously as some of you know Tavelo is ex-winspace employees.
Adapt:
NO.2
Rixin Road
Xingbin street,
Jimei District,
Xiamen,361022, China
Tavelo:
Unit 1, 4th Floor,
NO.2 rixin road,
jimei district,
xiamen city, fujian province, China.
-
One last time…and I am totally happy with anyone’s opinion.
My point is, that you cannot show me PT review here, but only lines from someone who read something somewhere else.
If you say, it’s a dog…because of this and that…ya, happy to read and appreciate you sharing experiences.
But I feel that lines as „it’s a dog“, „doesn’t look good (what he says)“ is a very low claim to be happy with.
In a world full of (un)social media BS flooding our brains I felt this place had/has a higher standard at least when
people sharing their own thoughts with what we love…riding bikes and new stuff.
Cheers
well his build review is live on patreon, you'll see soon
-
There really doesn't seem to be an engineer on youtube that is actually a carbon expert. I believe PT is a mech engineer (not sure of his specialty) and Hambini is a engineer that specializes in bearings and machining (?)...when these guys delve into giving opinions on carbon it seems like they are out of their depth and not much better than channels that do things like cut frames up and say stuff like 'ooh, this is glued up neatly, or this wrinkle looks ugly and maybe it's a bad part of the frame.'
There's Luescher Teknik but he doesn't really make a lot of content or comment too much on OEM frame stuff.
There's that Jordan Coleman channel and he has some carbon expert dude but that entire channel reeks of BS and shilling so bad I don't watch anything from it.
-
The rise of the engineering influencer is a net negative for the profession. By nature, engineering is the study of trades not a study of principles and theories (that's physics!), and I wish PT in particular would have more discussion on this though that might require the engineers on the product side to exchange an email or two with him.
The multiple videos on SRAM Transmission were a great example of how PT didn't understand how that system worked or the tradeoffs that the SRAM engineers' teams made to get there. Without commenting on PT's individual talent since I do not know him or his CV, it would be very rare to find a single engineer who is smarter and has thought through a design more comprehensively than a room full of similarly qualified engineers, which SRAM definitely had working on Transmission. However, I doubt the hubs he has critiqued had a similar level of effort put into their design. He also had those in person and was able to show identify significant issues. I believe he is qualified as a PE.
I would listen carefully to PT if he has a product in hand and is commenting on its actual merits, particularly if his concerns extend to the function of the item he is testing. I would take the theoretical critiques with a couple shovels of salt.
Raul Luescher is pretty approachable as are are other carbon experts like the guys from Ruckus composites, but its hard for them to offer substantive critiques based on photos from a boroscope; so most of them don't.
-
it would be very rare to find a single engineer who is smarter and has thought through a design more comprehensively than a room full of similarly qualified engineers, which SRAM definitely had working on Transmission.
You don't have to be smarter than a design engineer to see flaws in their designs. For example I'm sure the engineers who designed hookless road wheels/tires are very smart, but the concept/product is obviously very flawed.
That said, folks like PT/Hambini etc have cultivated a following by presenting themselves as the smartest guy in every room, and since we live in a time where people are eager to outsource their thoughts and opinions it's unsurprising that they are so popular and that the things PT/Hambini say go unchallenged. We live in complicated times and ideological strongmen create a false simplicity for personal gain.
Again I watch and enjoy PT's content, but partially because he can be so over the top it gets to be ridiculous rather than inspiring or informative.
-
That said, folks like PT/Hambini etc have cultivated a following by presenting themselves as the smartest guy in every room, and since we live in a time where people are eager to outsource their thoughts and opinions it's unsurprising that they are so popular and that the things PT/Hambini say go unchallenged. We live in complicated times and ideological strongmen create a false simplicity for personal gain.
This sums up the entire Red Pill community on YouTube. Ironically, incel culture is a lot like cycling a times :-X
-
They're all caricatures at the end of the day. If you want serious watch the zero friction cycling guy. I challenge you to stay awake for a whole episode.
-
so how about that tavelo arow, what a frame
-
I thought it was mainly design issues with the Arow(s) that PT received. Quality is garbage too. He released a 40 min video. I assume the non-Patreon version will be out next week.
-
This sums up the entire Red Pill community on YouTube. Ironically, incel culture is a lot like cycling a times :-X
I think both of them are doing a service to the community, like them or not their critical analysis helps keep brands honest. I look at them in a way as auditors that make sure brands are giving their best product to the consumers, and always improving their product. I do not think they approach it with a "smartest in the room" attitude, but more as a teacher since they know many people have not even taken a physics class. Most of their ideas check out from a basic physics perspective, and it holds a fire under brands asses to do better
-
You don't have to be smarter than a design engineer to see flaws in their designs. For example I'm sure the engineers who designed hookless road wheels/tires are very smart, but the concept/product is obviously very flawed.
That said, folks like PT/Hambini etc have cultivated a following by presenting themselves as the smartest guy in every room, and since we live in a time where people are eager to outsource their thoughts and opinions it's unsurprising that they are so popular and that the things PT/Hambini say go unchallenged. We live in complicated times and ideological strongmen create a false simplicity for personal gain.
Again I watch and enjoy PT's content, but partially because he can be so over the top it gets to be ridiculous rather than inspiring or informative.
I think Hookless is a great example of where the critiques are spot on. However, most of what we know now is based on people getting their hands on the products, not a theoretical critique. I 100% agree that you don't need to be a qualified engineer to see the obvious issues where expected cooperation or co-development of the product didn't materialize or was late to show up.
If there are design issues with the Arrow and PT has a critique based on his hands-on experience, I would personally think a lot about that. That is different from the hot takes on new tech, like the transmission videos I mentioned, which I would be skeptical of.
I've sidetracked this thread enough, and I look forward to watching PT's review if it ever makes it to YouTube.
-
and there it is https://youtu.be/XKGb5GN0kS8?si=d_z9jBbS6n6CWcOd
-
Video is entertaining.
Had the same headset cap/cover issue on my Tavelo Attack. The cap rubbed on the top of the headtube which caused rubbing, and basically locked up the handlebars once pre-loaded. I had to sand down the bottom side of the top cap to create clearance on the frame. I would have hoped Tavelo fixed this issue almost 1 year later.
I'll probably still up end getting an Arow for review at some point LoL
-
and there it is https://youtu.be/XKGb5GN0kS8?si=d_z9jBbS6n6CWcOd
My 500$ do cycle gravel frame did not have 10% of the problems this overpriced YouTuber shill frame has. Absolutely ridiculous. I start wondering if all those "ex winspace" employees responsible for those overpriced crap products actually left the company or just got sacked. Because winspace is doing fine which cannot be said about tavelo and few other craps pushed by panda podium.
-
That really sounds and looks disappointing in so many ways.
Somehow feels like they just erased 2 previous generations of steps ahead into the right direction…generally speaking
for eastern developments.
-
That really sounds and looks disappointing in so many ways.
Somehow feels like they just erased 2 previous generations of steps ahead into the right direction…generally speaking
for eastern developments.
To be fair grant from GC performance built this frame and had no problems with it. He says the headset setup is almost the same like in colnago c68 - hard to work on of you do it first time. He answered few questions in the comment section under his recent video.But sadly PT had way more problems then just steering tube stuff.
-
Ja, and from what I read, PT and PandaP and NeroCycl. will discuss those issues later on their channels and PC.
So let’s see.
not that I was in for this particular frame, as I am really pretty happy with the Tavelo Attack with mech. shifting. since
some 7000km…
-
PT's criticisms are fair, but man, does he like anything lol. What's the last generally positive review he gave? Seems like all his reviews are "me smart bike companies dumb"
-
GC's reply under PT vid.
A lot of bikes come into the shop with issues, every brand. My job as a bike shop is not to sit there and tell the customer how crappy this is or they need to return it. Customers want to ride it. So it's our job to fix it
Take that as you will
-
This is pretty bad for even $600 dollar frames. The branding has no clothes.
FWIW Both PT and Hambini gave pretty glowing reviews of 9Velo wheelsets so I bought one. The bearings in the front are completely toast after 1000 miles, the rear ones are on the way out. 9Velo has no interest in replacing them since they are "consumables." I'd understand that position if they actually lasted a reasonable distance, but 1000 babied miles for ceramic bearings is complete crap. I was going to buy another set but now I'm definitely going with some other company.
Hambini also completely shit on Hunt wheels, I have a set of those that I have completely abused and they are still rock solid and the bearings are still fine after probably 3000 miles, a lot of which are use of being on my bad weather bike.
-
Most bearing on chinese wheels are shit ftom what I'm seeing. 9Velo are H-Works hubs, farsports use those too and same problems have been reported
-
Yep this is why you have to take reviews with a grain of salt. Ultimately theyre just one opinion from one person. Threads like this are more useful IMO as you get some real world owner feedback. More miles, more skin in the game, less bias, less conflict of interest (even PT needs views and engagement). Not saying they are worthless but a lot of people put way too much faith in reviews
-
Hambini also completely shit on Hunt wheels, I have a set of those that I have completely abused and they are still rock solid and the bearings are still fine after probably 3000 miles, a lot of which are use of being on my bad weather bike.
Funny enough, Hunt Wheels are popular locally here. And I've had at least 3-4 buddies message me about the issues they've had with their wheels.
It's reasonable to conclude that all opinions are valid. Even a broken clock is right twice a day ;D
-
Peak Torque's work is invaluable. We're in the grift economy, and content creators will shill for money, it's just the nature of the business. Huberman makes $18m endorsing green powder, so dont assume that some random ass youtuber reviewing bikes giving you a discount code is going to tell you about the ugly bits.
Also, Alex is an engineer, when many reviewers are much, much less educated.
Anecdotally, i'm a wilful idiot, i have friends who're legit engineers who think i'm insane riding the chinese kit i'm riding.
My take on PT's review is that Tavelo is selling at a very high premium something with a lot of proprietary parts, and they suck at all of these, plus they suck at the basics such as making round holes.
Chinese companies are absolutely looking at YT content, so the fact they're still making BB holes that are the wrong size is simply unacceptable. Ditto on that headset bearing seat where you could freakin wiggle that bearing.
Alex is also a big guy who rides very aggressively, so i like that he's thinking about catastrophic failure. stress(Light people with low FTPs riding on the flat) is a FRACTION of stress(big guys doing big watts on steep gradients). I have a friend who gets 2 rides out of his ice tech rotors before they warp.
-
I've gone through the Hambini vid of the Hunt and basically he says the main issue with them being poorly engineered and crap is that they use bearings that are 6802 15mm (ID) x 28mm x 7mm, I'm guessing the implication that this is too small for disc hub, yet the 9Velo hubs that he had glowing reviews for (literally saying they are about as good as you can get) have bearings that are 6803 17mm (ID) x 26mm x 5mm.
To me, it seems like the 15mm ID bearings would be more 'stable' (wider, better ID to OD ratio, larger balls(?)) than the 17mm in their seats and also be able to handle higher loads AKA it's a beefier bearing in the one he deemed as crap.
So yea...starting to chalk that guy up in the BS dept more and more.
-
Eh there were plenty of negative opinions on hunt quality waaaaaaay before hambini made anything on them.
-
Peak Torque's work is invaluable. We're in the grift economy, and content creators will shill for money, it's just the nature of the business.
I mean, there's shilling for attention too. PT def benefits from the narrative he pushes of him being the brilliant engineer here to save you from the tyranny of big bike. Might not be as big of a grift as product shilling, but he's still getting free stuff, Youtube money, and all that savior affirmation.
-
This topic is deviating a bit from discussing the Tavelo Arow.
It looks like Tavelo have burnt themselves by implementing new technology (like d-shaped steerer) without proper testing.
You may like peak torque or not, but his main point is fair: the quality he received cannot be expected from a high end frameset which the Tavelo Arow is positioned as.
It's a pity because, as a user of the Tavelo Attack, I'm super pleased and even amazed by the quality of that frame. I really hope Tavelo is redoing their homework and can step up to be in line with the standards of a high end brand they would like to be.
-
This topic is deviating a bit from discussing the Tavelo Arow.
It looks like Tavelo have burnt themselves by implementing new technology (like d-shaped steerer) without proper testing.
You may like peak torque or not, but his main point is fair: the quality he received cannot be expected from a high end frameset which the Tavelo Arow is positioned as.
It's a pity because, as a user of the Tavelo Attack, I'm super pleased and even amazed by the quality of that frame. I really hope Tavelo is redoing their homework and can step up to be in line with the standards of a high end brand they would like to be.
I have reached out to Tavelo regarding this. Only because I have a arow on order. From what they tell me and yes they can be blowing smoke up my ass. They say that the frames that pt received were first iteration samples and they worked out all the kinks. Regardless I still love riding bikes that I don’t see on the road all the time. I would never buy a tarmac. That being said I will give a real unbiased review once I receive. And to be fair I bought the bike.
-
I have reached out to Tavelo regarding this. Only because I have a arow on order. From what they tell me and yes they can be blowing smoke up my ass. They say that the frames that pt received were first iteration samples and they worked out all the kinks. Regardless I still love riding bikes that I don’t see on the road all the time. I would never buy a tarmac. That being said I will give a real unbiased review once I receive. And to be fair I bought the bike.
I just can't get my head around one simple thing. Why the F those companies keep sending early version of their products to PT without even doing a basic quality check before ?!
-
I just can't get my head around one simple thing. Why the F those companies keep sending early version of their products to PT without even doing a basic quality check before ?!
I have had so many phone calls with owners of various Chinese brands. They just do biz differently over there. I really don’t think they care about NA yet. Their mentality is very diff from western mentality.
-
I have had so many phone calls with owners of various Chinese brands. They just do biz differently over there. I really don’t think they care about NA yet. Their mentality is very diff from western mentality.
Yeah but it's Joe from Panda Podium sending those. He is suppose to do better. Especially that he knows that PT will look for every little shit.
-
Yeah but it's Joe from Panda Podium sending those. He is suppose to do better. Especially that he knows that PT will look for every little shit.
[/quotei
I read the comments from that review and joe said he did not send the frame.
-
I just can't get my head around one simple thing. Why the F those companies keep sending early version of their products to PT without even doing a basic quality check before ?!
I think that is because the chinese companies doesn't have deep understanding to whom they send the product. they just want to gain popularity and quick sales using channels with a large number of subscribers. And companies know that many of this channels (we all know them) will just say that the frame or bike or any other product is good, they will smooth out all imperfections, like some sanding or shitty parts with words "but you know, this frame costs so many times cheaper than the sl8". Then they will give us first ride impression around a park, or even a bikeshop parking lot, saying default nonsense like "frame rides good, it's stiff but compliant, very responsive, I don't have any problem pushing my gigantic 320 watts", and then never ride it again. Same with other products, from wheels to groupsets.
-
Now let’s grab some popcorn…
Nero Show online with latest response to PT…
-
Then they will give us first ride impression around a park, or even a bikeshop parking lot, saying default nonsense like "frame rides good, it's stiff but compliant, very responsive, I don't have any problem pushing my gigantic 320 watts", and then never ride it again.
True. But you missed the "it holds its speed well" :p
-
The steerer tube/head tube/expander plug of that bike looks like a massive cluster fk.
What is the point of a D shaped steerer tube that can't accommodate cables and can only fit two hydraulic lines? :o
-
Now let’s grab some popcorn…
Nero Show online with latest response to PT…
Holy moly did they take his little jab poorly. :o
They are mad butthurt over his little joke.
-
Holy moly did they take his little jab poorly. :o
They are mad butthurt over his little joke.
They both have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of bikes, are keenly aware of it, and not especially keen for their viewers to cotton on. So it figures. They both firmly fit in the hyped up product fanboi category.
I'm not really sure why so many people here are determined to attack PT and shoot the messenger, when nothing he highlighted about the shit design and build quality of the Arow is excusable or defensible.
-
The steerer tube/head tube/expander plug of that bike looks like a massive cluster fk.
What is the point of a D shaped steerer tube that can't accommodate cables and can only fit two hydraulic lines? :o
Probably because someone in marketing thought it was trendy.
-
Holy moly did they take his little jab poorly. :o
They are mad butthurt over his little joke.
Recently shows have been alright. But before that this show had sooooo many bad takes I always treated is as a comedy/entertainment not a knowledge source.
-
Joe had no hand in this, Tavelo was dealing with PT directly.
-
I think the Nero show is such a lame show. I had a arow on order then canceled it after the PT review. It’s sad so many utubers have no idea what they are talking about. PT at least has valid points. The expander looks like a mess. I have built many factors that share the same design that look the same but u can tell are done right. Sad that I had to cancel my order. I hope they work out the kinks. Now patiently waiting for my spear to arrive.
-
I just can't get my head around one simple thing. Why the F those companies keep sending early version of their products to PT without even doing a basic quality check before ?!
I reckon it is a PT special frame that had been qc'd specially because it's a review frame, it's just because their qc is that abysmal that this is the end product he received and I'd assume they were perfectly happy with it before sending it. Now that is scary.
Easy for them to hide behind the usual stuff they say, it's "oh we wanted to get the frame to you ASAP!" and "all the issues are fixed and our product is perfect now!".
Well when a manufacturer that is trying to position as premium, they shouldn't have any rudimentary issues with the basics. Makes me think if a reviewer's frame is like this... How about the ones that don't get special treatment? Even worse?! Yeah nah no thanks.
And of course the panda podium guy tries to then absolve himself of responsibility, when he is the main seller of this frame to the western market (does the frame even sell in China?) and whether or not it was sent direct from tavelo, I'd assume he has had a part in getting his mate PT a frame. Makes me more concerned that pp would be doing extra qc on the frame just because it is a review frame, which seemed to be the case from his yt comment.
It is all a bit smelly to me.
-
Joe had no hand in this, Tavelo was dealing with PT directly.
Joe is shilling it for western market and is mate with PT. He is also the main seller for western market and a face of the brand.So imo he should real kept and eye what those guys are sending abroad as it directly affects his reputation and sale numbers.
Imagine trusting a brand which can't even send a "straight" frame to a YouTuber for a shill. Absolute disaster.
-
PT's response to their ridiculous overreaction is to rib them on IG ... think they might both have strokes.
-
Now Tavelo did issue a statement on both channels addressing the issues…
Like it or not, but at least they participate and giving answers…
And blaming a seller for trying to sell parts…well, ok
Besides, out of curiosity, did PT ever challenge a western brand with such precision tools to check for industry standard?
I don’t want to go the whatabouthism alley….because shxxt is shxxt… just wondering…
-
PT's response to their ridiculous overreaction is to rib them on IG ... think they might both have strokes.
Can you post it here? I don't have ig =(
-
Even QC aside, and not to sound like a path-less-pedaled luddite, it's crazy how many unnecessary proprietary parts they can produce, and not even get right. Who the fuck came up with this expander?
If they claim it's just a one off/they sent the wrong one/prototype by accident, he has another one so these can quickly be confirmed or denied.
But the only jab he has taken was saying he had the bike built by a boutique store and unaware of the build process, which Jesse could deny but why are they SO butthurt about it? he's taking it way too personally. Pretty sure he was a guest in an early episode too but now it sounds like they've escalated to real beef
Whoever designed the paint schemes needs to get hired by a better brand without shitty overthinking engineers and I'd be happy
-
GC Performance posted his review and he likes it. I think I prefer his take. Dude lives in Florida with sunshine and beautiful Latinas, versus the gloomy/grouchy Brit engineers overseas looking to complain about everything. ::)
youtu.be/zdT3G4fJ88M?feature=shared
-
Now Tavelo did issue a statement on both channels addressing the issues…
Like it or not, but at least they participate and giving answers…
And blaming a seller for trying to sell parts…well, ok
Besides, out of curiosity, did PT ever challenge a western brand with such precision tools to check for industry standard?
I don’t want to go the whatabouthism alley….because shxxt is shxxt… just wondering…
Where did Tavelo isssue a statement?
-
GC Performance posted his review and he likes it. I think I prefer his take. Dude lives in Florida with sunshine and beautiful Latinas, versus the gloomy/grouchy Brit engineers overseas looking to complain about everything. ::)
youtu.be/zdT3G4fJ88M?feature=shared
One is an engineer with a lot of racing experience, the other is a fat guy who rides twice a month, "reviewing it" (reading specs) after EIGHTY miles (with no elevation) and hasn't investigated the BB extensively. It's a close one, I'm not sure who I should trust?
-
They both have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of bikes, are keenly aware of it, and not especially keen for their viewers to cotton on. So it figures. They both firmly fit in the hyped up product fanboi category.
Lol. What do you get out of this fanatical PT worship.
Nero show guys obv aren't engineers, but they are high level racers who have built a lot of bikes and follow the industry pretty closely. And as an engineer, I'm tired of how guys like PT and Hambini leverage the profession for worship and antagonism. If you have to preface all your insight and opinions with "im an engineer" it just reeks of insecurity and authority fallacies. PT spends about as much time pumping himself up/putting others down as he does providing actual info.
-
Nero show guys obv aren't engineers, but they are high level racers who have built a lot of bikes
yeahhhh nah chris couldn't build a bike if his life depended on it. i'm sure he has had bikes built for him, but he's definitely never built one lol
-
I reckon it is a PT special frame that had been qc'd specially because it's a review frame, it's just because their qc is that abysmal that this is the end product he received and I'd assume they were perfectly happy with it before sending it. Now that is scary.
Easy for them to hide behind the usual stuff they say, it's "oh we wanted to get the frame to you ASAP!" and "all the issues are fixed and our product is perfect now!".
Well when a manufacturer that is trying to position as premium, they shouldn't have any rudimentary issues with the basics. Makes me think if a reviewer's frame is like this... How about the ones that don't get special treatment? Even worse?! Yeah nah no thanks.
And of course the panda podium guy tries to then absolve himself of responsibility, when he is the main seller of this frame to the western market (does the frame even sell in China?) and whether or not it was sent direct from tavelo, I'd assume he has had a part in getting his mate PT a frame. Makes me more concerned that pp would be doing extra qc on the frame just because it is a review frame, which seemed to be the case from his yt comment.
It is all a bit smelly to me.
I think PT gets some of the stuff through a 3rd party, IE he gives money to a buddy who the brand has no idea who they are to buy the frame or wheelset or whatever to prevent brands from perrforming extra QC for promotion products.
Hoping he does the Elilee Blaze frame. Cam Nichols just released a vid on it but it's very shilly.
-
Lol. What do you get out of this fanatical PT worship.
Nero show guys obv aren't engineers, but they are high level racers who have built a lot of bikes and follow the industry pretty closely. And as an engineer, I'm tired of how guys like PT and Hambini leverage the profession for worship and antagonism. If you have to preface all your insight and opinions with "im an engineer" it just reeks of insecurity and authority fallacies. PT spends about as much time pumping himself up/putting others down as he does providing actual info.
Just bizarre ...
-
Lol. What do you get out of this fanatical PT worship.
Nero show guys obv aren't engineers, but they are high level racers who have built a lot of bikes and follow the industry pretty closely. And as an engineer, I'm tired of how guys like PT and Hambini leverage the profession for worship and antagonism. If you have to preface all your insight and opinions with "im an engineer" it just reeks of insecurity and authority fallacies. PT spends about as much time pumping himself up/putting others down as he does providing actual info.
Mate, Nero boys are not any experts. They claim they are coaches and they did not even know how to take CREATINE, this is embarrassing. Anyway I am watching the show now and the further it goes the more Christina looks like a Karen... This is actually hilarious.
Lmao they mentioned my comment at 25:10
-
Mate, Nero boys are not any experts. They claim they are coaches and they did not even know how to take CREATINE, this is embarrassing. Anyway I am watching the show now and the further it goes the more Christina looks like a Karen... This is actually hilarious.
Jessica sounded proper Karen-like from the getgo this episode. I'm worried they're gonna come back next week with their facial hair dyed pink or green or something.
-
Hoping he does the Elilee Blaze frame. Cam Nichols just released a vid on it but it's very shilly.
I just watched Cam Nichols' video on the Elilee Blize as an owner of one. I have to say, I agree with most of the assessment. The bike is definitely a great bike, so it may sound "shilly". I have now almost ridden 5000km on the standard version. It's already plenty stiff for a lightweight bike, even on the standard version. I take this as a blessing and a curse. It is stiff when you want to transfer power, but you can definitely feel the stiffness over rough bumps, especially the stiff XXE handlebar.
After watching PT's video on Tavelo, I am surprised to see almost no issue(s) with my Elilee Blize. All the "proprietary" bits that came with the Blize were super well done, like seat post clamps, headset expander, etc .. Building the bike had been a breeze. Note that both should be considered at the same category for the price.
-
One is an engineer with a lot of racing experience, the other is a fat guy who rides twice a month, "reviewing it" (reading specs) after EIGHTY miles (with no elevation) and hasn't investigated the BB extensively. It's a close one, I'm not sure who I should trust?
PT admits he's a slightly above average cyclist at best. The fat guy runs a bike shop and probably has to MacGyver solutions for sh*t frames expensive or cheap.
Either way, I have no interest in the Tavelo frameset. If I'm spending $2k USD, I would consider buying something else.
-
Where did Tavelo isssue a statement?
In the comment section of both YT clips
-
Lol. What do you get out of this fanatical PT worship.
Nero show guys obv aren't engineers, but they are high level racers who have built a lot of bikes and follow the industry pretty closely. And as an engineer, I'm tired of how guys like PT and Hambini leverage the profession for worship and antagonism. If you have to preface all your insight and opinions with "im an engineer" it just reeks of insecurity and authority fallacies. PT spends about as much time pumping himself up/putting others down as he does providing actual info.
The good news is these guys actually explain their rationale for their criticism. The BB issue has been explained ad-nauseam by PT, Hamboner, and even the BBright dude. It's not hard to understand: if the hole is too small or egg shaped, the bearing is not going to roll right and will eventually destroy itself. Hambini in particular has pretty much put up tutorials that explain how to figure out the tolerances you need. PT is right, most punters who buy Chinese frames aren't going to be able to properly correct a bad BB.
I'll admit both PT and Hambini are kind of insufferable "well ackchuhlly" types who often overanalyze to the point of venturing into "wanketeering" themselves. My favorite instances are Hambini claiming that the Ribble water-bottle-shielding downtube was dumb because "you can just run aero bottles", and similarly PT's "analysis" of Paris Roubaix bikes, claiming that everyone should be on full-aero full-suspension Cannondale Topstones, when the Dogma FS and K8 already exist--and have proven the gain is just marginal if nonexistent.
On the other hand, PT and Hambini have ample examples of "I told you so" moments: PT's criticism of open spoke holes (not exactly a cutting-edge call since this was already an issue 15 years ago), PT's catch with the CRW front hubs, Hambini's criticism of Shimano cranksets, etc.
Really, the way to receive these guys is to forget they're engineers, listen to their analysis, understand it, and decide for yourself if you agree.
-
In the comment section of both YT clips
I can't find either of Tavelo's replies you speak of sir
-
Sorry for you Sir….
But hey….here to help, hope I do not infringe copyright:
Tavelo Official Response to Peak Torque Concerns
Peak Torque Concerns
I have some more issues about the engineering:
1. The bb shell is slightly undersized (40.87 to 40.92) but i will confirm a more accurate measurement
2. The fork expander is very tight in the fork (even when loosened bolt)
3. The black steerer shim does not fit in the gap. Too tight
4. The seat post wedge clamp edges arrived damaged and are very sharp. They have damaged the seat-post. I always mention in videos that sharp corners that clamp on carbon need to be smoothed and chamfered on the engineering drawings.
5. The one-piece headset top cap has too much friction and is difficult to preload. A separate bolt and cap would be better in my opinion.
-
Tavelo’s Response:
We would like to extend our gratitude to Alex for his time and thorough review of our Tavelo AROW frame set. Although the initial impressions of his two early production framesets were not entirely satisfactory, we have since addressed several of the issues he highlighted. Additionally, we are incorporating many of the constructive suggestions he mentioned in his video for further improvements. We take Alex’s feedback seriously and are committed to refining our product based on his valuable insights.
1. The production of Peak Torque’s frames was expedited to ensure the quickest delivery. However, this haste led to a lapse in quality control, particularly in the bottom bracket (BB) area. Improperly fitted BB covers allowed leakage of the transparent curing putty, which, once hardened, behaves like epoxy resin. (This putty is applied after sanding off the mold release agent and serves as a paint primer.)
The leakage compromised the BB area, leading to potential issues with tolerances and shape. To address this, we now use properly sized rubber sleeve covers for the BB area, preventing contamination of the BB surfaces. Our updated mass production process includes a 100% inspection of all installation surfaces to ensure they meet the required tolerances.
Additionally, regarding our supplied Bottom Brackets - we have worked with our BB supplier to implement rigorous tolerance and quality control procedures, preventing future complications with their products.
2. This issue arises from the O-ring on the expander, which necessitates high design accuracy. We aim to maintain a precise fit; however, if the installation is performed according to the provided instructions, the process should remain straightforward without complications. To enhance aerodynamic performance and achieve a sleeker head tube profile, we opted for a D-shaped steer tube. This decision necessitated the design of a custom D-shaped expander plug. The expander requires a specialized installation process, which we will detail in a comprehensive "User Instruction Manual" to facilitate proper installation and disassembly.
3. We were not anticipating any tolerance issues with the CNC steer shim from our supplier. Unfortunately, as Alex discovered, the shim was oversized. We have since addressed this by implementing a rigorous testing process to ensure each shim fits correctly.
4. As Alex noted, the seat post wedge was damaged during shipment, resulting in sharp edges on the wedge,the damage of BB plastic shell was also damaged during shipment.We have since enhanced our packaging to better protect all components during transit, ensuring they arrive in perfect condition and preventing similar issues in the future.
5. Future frame-sets will be shipped with two-piece headset cap & bolt, as well as the one-piece unit.Using one-piece headset cap requires adding grease according to "User Instruction Manual"
-
Easy for them to hide behind the usual stuff they say, it's "oh we wanted to get the frame to you ASAP!" and "all the issues are fixed and our product is perfect now!".
Yep! There it is. Their response is exactly as I called it 2 pages ago. Same old bullshit.
..
And, seat post wedge damaged in shipping? hmm, not sure I buy that to be honest.
-
yeahhhh nah chris couldn't build a bike if his life depended on it. i'm sure he has had bikes built for him, but he's definitely never built one lol
OK, had a lot of bikes built. Point is they have a lot of user experience with bikes, which I think is relevant to a wider audience. Most cyclists are not building their bikes piece by piece, and most definitely aren't checking BB hole tolerances etc.
The good news is these guys actually explain their rationale for their criticism. The BB issue has been explained ad-nauseam by PT, Hamboner, and even the BBright dude. It's not hard to understand: if the hole is too small or egg shaped, the bearing is not going to roll right and will eventually destroy itself. Hambini in particular has pretty much put up tutorials that explain how to figure out the tolerances you need. PT is right, most punters who buy Chinese frames aren't going to be able to properly correct a bad BB.
I mean, how valid is that hypothesis. DTC Chinese frames have been out for a while now- by show of hands who here has had a BB destroy itself from an out of round BB mount? The worst I've heard is of BBs incessantly creaking. If this was a legit issue, we would have seen it in the real world, which gets at another thing with engineers- a lot of us get so attached to theoretical minutae that we lose sight of what issues are actually relevant in practice rather than theory.
Not to mention, with Hambini in particular, there is a material interest in pushing the narrative of BB failure- for the low low price of $300+, Hambini can sell you bottom bracket salvation. What a nice guy.
I'll admit both PT and Hambini are kind of insufferable "well ackchuhlly" types who often overanalyze to the point of venturing into "wanketeering" themselves. My favorite instances are Hambini claiming that the Ribble water-bottle-shielding downtube was dumb because "you can just run aero bottles", and similarly PT's "analysis" of Paris Roubaix bikes, claiming that everyone should be on full-aero full-suspension Cannondale Topstones, when the Dogma FS and K8 already exist--and have proven the gain is just marginal if nonexistent.
I mean another key tenet of being a good engineer is knowing your area of expertise. I'm a mechanical engineer who specializes in HVAC. I can't go get a license as an electric engineer in transmission power. But with the magic cocktail of pedigree, technical dazzling, and condescension, they can feign that expertise and get no pushback. It's not a bad gig at all.
On the other hand, PT and Hambini have ample examples of "I told you so" moments: PT's criticism of open spoke holes (not exactly a cutting-edge call since this was already an issue 15 years ago), PT's catch with the CRW front hubs, Hambini's criticism of Shimano cranksets, etc.
Really, the way to receive these guys is to forget they're engineers, listen to their analysis, understand it, and decide for yourself if you agree.
I think the way people enjoy listening to these guys is as authorities to feed them thoughts and opinions, and to tell them who to hate. Their biggest fans are doing no such critical analysis, they don't want to. You see that in some of the impassioned defenses in this thread. It's more about finding enemies to go after, be it Big Bike or other Youtubers who dare to respond to being called out lol. The whole thing is kind of a joke honestly.
-
I mean, how valid is that hypothesis. DTC Chinese frames have been out for a while now- by show of hands who here has had a BB destroy itself from an out of round BB mount?
Me! I bought a Lightcarbon frame with an out-of-round and undersized bottom bracket, with an epoxy run across one of the cups. Funnily enough, the same frame model Hambini bought and waxed poetic over.
Couldn't get a BB in at all. Had to sand it a bit to get it in. Then had the issue where one of the cups deformed the BB bearing, making it VERY hard to install my crankset, and it seized after a season of CX racing. Pretty much banking on the fact that any BB I throw in there will creak and eventually go kaput, unless I get a one-piece. Hambini has a similar example of an undersized Cannondale BB. It happens.
-
I think the way people enjoy listening to these guys is as authorities to feed them thoughts and opinions, and to tell them who to hate. Their biggest fans are doing no such critical analysis, they don't want to. You see that in some of the impassioned defenses in this thread. It's more about finding enemies to go after, be it Big Bike or other Youtubers who dare to respond to being called out lol. The whole thing is kind of a joke honestly.
Your point really is highlights the parallel I made earlier about the online red pill community and subsequent incel culture. What starts as fair and objective criticism eventually morphs into hatred and negative confirmation bias. Character attacks and racial undertones. But drama/grifting generates views and ad revenue so I understand. I speak to most of these folks offline, so my opinion will be waste of time.
What nags me the most is just how badly Tavelo messed up their Arow rollout to the public. Almost a year ago when I purchased my Attack frameset, I had a few minor issues that Tavelo wasn't exactly empathetic or reactive over. So to see worse QC woes a year later and having it take a large YouTube channel to finally get noticed, is very troublesome for the consumer. Even just the divisiveness online is ultimately terrible optics for Tavelo.
My Attack bike is lovely out on the road. I expect to the Arow to be the same or better once built. It's just extremely difficult to win the customer back once the reputation is tarnished. This reminds of Yoeleo a couple of years ago with their horrendous 9 month fulfillment delays.
-
I mean, how valid is that hypothesis. DTC Chinese frames have been out for a while now- by show of hands who here has had a BB destroy itself from an out of round BB mount? The worst I've heard is of BBs incessantly creaking. If this was a legit issue, we would have seen it in the real world, which gets at another thing with engineers- a lot of us get so attached to theoretical minutae that we lose sight of what issues are actually relevant in practice rather than theory.
Not to mention, with Hambini in particular, there is a material interest in pushing the narrative of BB failure- for the low low price of $300+, Hambini can sell you bottom bracket salvation. What a nice guy.
I think it’s important to note that conflict of interest. However, most people dont have a bore gauge, to be able to check out of round BBs, so it comes down to people thinking the BB has issues.
That said, I have Guerciotti (it’s a flybike catalogue bike) that was killing BBs on a yearly basis due to the left and right hand side being out of alignment. You couldnt get the spindles in and out without a mallet. Replacing the bearings with solid oil bearings stopped the wear issues and while it doesnt spin freely it wasn’t bad enough to go to a one piece solution. After 30k+ miles those bearings are still good, but the bike is really flexy in the BB area. Not sure if there is another cause, but its being retired and will not be re-sold.
After watching the video, Tavelo looks like a train wreck looking at it from the outside. They simply either cut corners or missed a lot of details on the design that they should have caught. This is on the product team as these issues sure don't sound like production variance or bad QA. They literally were doing the wrong thing with bad design in multiple areas. I can’t believe I agree with PT, but bike reviewers shouldn’t be doing design reviews for frames.
-
Your point really is highlights the parallel I made earlier about the online red pill community and subsequent incel culture. What starts as fair and objective criticism eventually morphs into hatred and negative confirmation bias. Character attacks and racial undertones. But drama/grifting generates views and ad revenue so I understand. I speak to most of these folks offline, so my opinion will be waste of time.
What nags me the most is just how badly Tavelo messed up their Arow rollout to the public. Almost a year ago when I purchased my Attack frameset, I had a few minor issues that Tavelo wasn't exactly empathetic or reactive over. So to see worse QC woes a year later and having it take a large YouTube channel to finally get noticed, is very troublesome for the consumer. Even just the divisiveness online is ultimately terrible optics for Tavelo.
My Attack bike is lovely out on the road. I expect to the Arow to be the same or better once built. It's just extremely difficult to win the customer back once the reputation is tarnished. This reminds of Yoeleo a couple of years ago with their horrendous 9 month fulfillment delays.
Not to give Tavelo a pass, I really have no dog in this fight... but they're hardly alone in botched launches. Even Western brands get it wrong sometimes, and without much recourse. Like with your Giant purchase (cant remember the details). Even with a bike store purchase it can still be bad.
I think it’s important to note that conflict of interest. However, most people dont have a bore gauge, to be able to check out of round BBs, so it comes down to people thinking the BB has issues.
That said, I have Guerciotti (it’s a flybike catalogue bike) that was killing BBs on a yearly basis due to the left and right hand side being out of alignment. You couldnt get the spindles in and out without a mallet. Replacing the bearings with solid oil bearings stopped the wear issues and while it doesnt spin freely it wasn’t bad enough to go to a one piece solution. After 30k+ miles those bearings are still good, but the bike is really flexy in the BB area. Not sure if there is another cause, but its being retired and will not be re-sold.
After watching the video, Tavelo looks like a train wreck looking at it from the outside. They simply either cut corners or missed a lot of details on the design that they should have caught. This is on the product team as these issues sure don't sound like production variance or bad QA. They literally were doing the wrong thing with bad design in multiple areas. I can’t believe I agree with PT, but bike reviewers shouldn’t be doing design reviews for frames.
I honestly feel like some of these quality issues just come with the territory. Though honestly it's dumb that we've got away from threaded BBs.
I listened to more of the Nero Show on my school pick up run and had e more very basic thoughts. One, the idea that someone responding to being called a shill and a liar makes them a Karen is hilarity. Some of yall are absolutely shameless. Two this is a $1500 frameset, not a $2000 frameset like PT kept saying. Still pricey enough to not have all these issues, but meaningfully cheaper than an equivalent Western brand. Three IIRC PT specifically said he ordered this anonymously, and it's supposedly the first copy in his size. Again not making excuses; they should have made some runs in every size to catch issues. But serial #00001 is prob gonna have issues.
Id be curious to see how other $1500 framesets compare. Maybe the extra $ western brands charge helps avoid these kinds of problems. I don't think this will be the end of Tavelo though, they have a huge domestic market.
-
Not to give Tavelo a pass, I really have no dog in this fight... but they're hardly alone in botched launches. Even Western brands get it wrong sometimes, and without much recourse. Like with your Giant purchase (cant remember the details). Even with a bike store purchase it can still be bad.
I honestly feel like some of these quality issues just come with the territory. Though honestly it's dumb that we've got away from threaded BBs.
I listened to more of the Nero Show on my school pick up run and had e more very basic thoughts. One, the idea that someone responding to being called a shill and a liar makes them a Karen is hilarity. Some of yall are absolutely shameless. Two this is a $1500 frameset, not a $2000 frameset like PT kept saying. Still pricey enough to not have all these issues, but meaningfully cheaper than an equivalent Western brand. Three IIRC PT specifically said he ordered this anonymously, and it's supposedly the first copy in his size. Again not making excuses; they should have made some runs in every size to catch issues. But serial #00001 is prob gonna have issues.
Id be curious to see how other $1500 framesets compare. Maybe the extra $ western brands charge helps avoid these kinds of problems. I don't think this will be the end of Tavelo though, they have a huge domestic market.
It is $1880, not $1500.
-
That's about $3000AUD once converted using a credit card or PayPal exchange rate.
My Cervelo Soloist frame cost the same! (rrp is $3700, but most dealers sell below rrp if you have the decency to talk to them for 5min).
I know which I'd pick...
-
Not to give Tavelo a pass, I really have no dog in this fight... but they're hardly alone in botched launches. Even Western brands get it wrong sometimes, and without much recourse. Like with your Giant purchase (cant remember the details). Even with a bike store purchase it can still be bad.
I honestly feel like some of these quality issues just come with the territory. Though honestly it's dumb that we've got away from threaded BBs.
I listened to more of the Nero Show on my school pick up run and had e more very basic thoughts. One, the idea that someone responding to being called a shill and a liar makes them a Karen is hilarity. Some of yall are absolutely shameless. Two this is a $1500 frameset, not a $2000 frameset like PT kept saying. Still pricey enough to not have all these issues, but meaningfully cheaper than an equivalent Western brand. Three IIRC PT specifically said he ordered this anonymously, and it's supposedly the first copy in his size. Again not making excuses; they should have made some runs in every size to catch issues. But serial #00001 is prob gonna have issues.
Id be curious to see how other $1500 framesets compare. Maybe the extra $ western brands charge helps avoid these kinds of problems. I don't think this will be the end of Tavelo though, they have a huge domestic market.
That does nothing excuse the issues or make them less significant. If it was a 500 dollar frame, then yeah maybe you could mention that, but $1500 puts it in a different league open to much more intense scrutiny. And you can't buy the frame for 1500, so it's more like a 1880 frame they are throwing the bars in for free.
-
It is $1880, not $1500.
With a $300 handlebar. In any case, not the 2K PT claimed and people believed
-
With a $300 handlebar. In any case, not the 2K PT claimed and people believed
PT says that you can't run this frame without that proprietary bar, due to top bearing cover only fits that bar shape. So It's still 1880$ no way around that...
-
Video of my crankset spinning in a 10 eur BB in my sub 500$ LTK268 frame. And it's actually spinning funny because of the one sided vector pedal is much heavier than the drive side pedal.
So we have PT with 2 Arow frames with BB holes that can't take a "normal" BB. And Jesse the same. And the miami bike shop guy the same. I shouldn't have to use a ghetto plastic sleeve BB because nothing else will fit in the hole of my 1880$ frameset. I would accept that on a trifox, maybe (i actually wouldnt because that's such a red flag, but presumably many people would).
Would I pay top dollar for that? Would I trust these people to make proprietary parts? Well, no.
Most bikes, even shit, dont break. But as far as i'm concerned, the raison d'etre of this forum is to find the good factories and weed out the bad ones. and tavelo, at this moment, doesnt appear to be a good factory.
The Jesse-Karen monster, the PT-is-a-dick, the oh yeah but people are racist incels, it's noise. The signal i hear is: dont buy Tavelo, especially at this price point.
-
the raison d'etre of this forum is to find the good factories and weed out the bad ones. and tavelo, at this moment, doesnt appear to be a good factory.
The signal i hear is: dont buy Tavelo, especially at this price point.
I dont think anyone has suggested otherwise.
-
Well…might surprise but still…nobody is forced to go the Tavelo way…
Out of curiosity:
Who in this fred owns a Tavelo…? Because there is so much wisdom shared?
Myself (Attack)
Patrick (Attack)
Anybody else?
-
I do recall the moderators recently having to get involved and delete racially charged comments on this forum against the Chinese.
What I've learned over the years having purchased and built frames from both Chinese and Western brands is that neither option makes a customer more virtuous than the other. An unpopular opinion around here I've learned. Both options have their benefits. And both have seen their blunders. Yet folks will defend Specialized to the death. Same with VeloBuild. You can do 1500w on your TanTan frame and drop Rapha/Sworks dudes? Cool man. You look down on customers looking for an effective alternative to the major brands? Okay I guess.
I want Tavelo, like all brands, to succeed because it ultimately means more options for the consumer. At the moment no one is really recommending Tavelo's Arow frame which seem to be pretty obvious.
-
I think the expectations of the Tavelo became artificially high when Joe from Panda Podium hyped it up in a way where it made it see it was some Ex Winspace renegade employees, who where about to make a superior product. But at this time it looks the the attitude has soured and Winspace remains a top choice!
-
Yeah never really understood that. Rogue winspace employees just go and buy frame from adapt and throw the tavelo brand on it.
-
A lot is getting lost in the noise, which is pretty important to consider as a customer.
1. Tavelo used what they had said was not their standard production method to cure the area around the BB shell on early orders. This should never happen. You should not be sending prototypes out to customers with the intent of making a running change early in production. This isn't like shipping software where later customers can update to the equivalent product; there is no way for most customers to fix these bikes. This speaks to the company and their decision-making, highlighting that they are shipping product before fully sorting production.
2. Blaming suppliers. This is a common one, and small brands usually do lack supplier leverage. I brought up my experience with my Guerciotti, which was generally a good bike outside of the BB issue. That small company shared the mold with Kestral and a few others and after a while the bike popped up in Flybike's catalog. While Carbonda never sold the exact same frame, one of the big differences you paid for vs. the Carbonda 696 was the use of Deda as the supplier for small parts vs. Neco or whoever. That matters, and it's also the job of the brand to select suppliers that can be depended on for quality and long-term support. Tavelo seems to have overlooked that, which is a pretty basic step.
3. The bike is highly integrated, but the design doesn't appear to have been qualified as an integrated system. This is highlighted by the issues with installing the D-shaped steerer plug, the immaturity of the seat post expander design, etc. Given that consumers can't go out and buy expanders since not all D shapes are the same, and the plastic covers and spacers are different, etc., this is a problem that's hard to resolve.
I don't think any of this is a result of poor workmanship at the factory. If anything, the Arow frame looks pretty clean regarding carbon construction in these videos and the visual design is sharp; management's decision-making and the immaturity of the design process, including the non-carbon components, are the problems here.
-
I want Tavelo, like all brands, to succeed because it ultimately means more options for the consumer. At the moment no one is really recommending Tavelo's Arow frame which seem to be pretty obvious.
Dunno man, not saying I want them to fail, but I think tavelo failing could also be a good thing. It could show that you can't just go and make a brand, make poor decisions and there be no consequences. These fresh chinese brands need to respect and value their customers, and have tha shiznit together before they start pumping out crap and sending it.
Every company makes mistakes, but in the case of tavelo, these are the basics that every company should have sorted without even blinking an eye. And there is even less excuse for them since they were previously part of winspace.
-
Dunno man, not saying I want them to fail, but I think tavelo failing could also be a good thing. It could show that you can't just go and make a brand, make poor decisions and there be no consequences. These fresh chinese brands need to respect and value their customers, and have tha shiznit together before they start pumping out crap and sending it.
Dang man, I can't even argue that logical of a point. Respect.
This all could be a cautionary tale for future brands.
Might need to steal this for an upcoming video...
-
Dunno man, not saying I want them to fail, but I think tavelo failing could also be a good thing. It could show that you can't just go and make a brand, make poor decisions and there be no consequences. These fresh chinese brands need to respect and value their customers, and have tha shiznit together before they start pumping out crap and sending it.
Every company makes mistakes, but in the case of tavelo, these are the basics that every company should have sorted without even blinking an eye. And there is even less excuse for them since they were previously part of winspace.
I hope Tavelo finds its place in the market and succeeds, but this stuff is more challenging than it sounds. Look at the LTwoo and Wheeltop groups. There were tons of people on forums saying it was going to be checkmate as soon as the Chinese electronic groups came out. Turns out its a lot harder than it sounds.
The same thing applies to framesets that are this proprietary. It's possible that a chamfer or fillet wasn't specified because the production method wasn't fully decided, and then no one went back to update the design once it was. Tavelo and the factory behind them seem new. Winspace came from Gotobike or one of the older open mold factories. They had a lot of experience and mature processes to build on. If a designer or part of the engineering team (or worse, the marketing team) left to found Tavelo, they likely took very little of that with them. As a new business owner trying to make things work, having been one of many leaders in my prior places of employment, I can relate to the effect of needing more knowledge and complete processes.
Winspace products also aren't as mature as this forum (and Joe from PP) makes them out to be. Their hubs for example are a mess and have many documented cases of short bearing life compared to the likes of DT Swiss. The Agile frameset geometries are another example.
-
I think the expectations of the Tavelo became artificially high when Joe from Panda Podium hyped it up in a way where it made it see it was some Ex Winspace renegade employees, who where about to make a superior product. But at this time it looks the the attitude has soured and Winspace remains a top choice!
If that's the source of the hype, Joe being ex winspace himself, they may just be his friends and so he assumed / claimed their stuff would be great.
I'll routinely defend my girlfriend's cooking because I get to sleep with her. We have biases and hidden agendas.
-
Everyone making money from this, be it as a "got it for free" reviewer or an engagement paid critic, has a pretty obvious conflict of interest. I doubt Peak Torque's Arow review would have the most views of them all if he was positive about it ;)
I agree that in the end people should sort through the noise, but I also think there is noise on both ends of the spectrum, and the noise being pleasant to someone doesn't mean they're objective or w/o agendas.
-
If Tavelo fails, it'll just be the brand. They're the in-house brand of a medium sized OEM/ODM. They'd relaunch the next day under a new name.
-
This is how u make a proper response
https://youtu.be/t3BTMTm5Wpc?si=sklUeFguaniEWKbS
Those drama queens from Australia should learn. Hope those Karen's go to hell, hate people with this attitude.
-
I think the expectations of the Tavelo became artificially high when Joe from Panda Podium hyped it up in a way where it made it see it was some Ex Winspace renegade employees, who where about to make a superior product. But at this time it looks the the attitude has soured and Winspace remains a top choice!
Personally I was hyped by the Arow frame because it seemed to bring all the things I wanted in a frame, which was sub 1000g weight with a design that looks really aero. What are the alternative bikes that have similar qualities? Seka Spear (more expensive, no US dealer) and Winspace Agile are pretty much it. One of the few Chiner frames that seemed to be on par with the latest gen allround bikes like the SL8, new Madone, SS6-2 etc. I don't think the hype was artificially high per-se, they are offering a frame design a lot of people want.
-
Personally I was hyped by the Arow frame because it seemed to bring all the things I wanted in a frame, which was sub 1000g weight with a design that looks really aero. What are the alternative bikes that have similar qualities? Seka Spear (more expensive, no US dealer) and Winspace Agile are pretty much it. One of the few Chiner frames that seemed to be on par with the latest gen allround bikes like the SL8, new Madone, SS6-2 etc. I don't think the hype was artificially high per-se, they are offering a frame design a lot of people want.
Speeder RC55D
-
Speeder RC55D
TIL; touché.
-
Come on guys…could we tune down a bit?
You may agree or disagree with someone, but still no need bullying other people…
Words are easy written which you would not use face2face….
Anyways….ping pong continues….
GCperformance reply online
-
Watching the GCPerformance video, I feel terrible that he was called out to make this response. YouTubers bullying YouTubers is BS.
That said, I stand by my interpretation of the videos and Tavelo's response, which shows that management and process mistakes are being made at Tavelo.
However, in GC's video, one thing stood out to me: the idea that Shimano BBs fit fine, so he didn't bother measuring. Not only is this the reality for most people building bikes, but the cottage industry around "better engineered" bike parts is partly to blame for why PT couldn't fit his BB. Yes, the Tavelo frame is out of spec, but Shimano and SRAM use nylons to interface with the carbon as a wear surface and widen the tolerances to make a functional interference fit. Wheels Manufacturing also manages this by making the DS of their screw-together BBs slightly smaller. This is also a feature with BB bearings; Shimano and SRAM use plastic inserts with 24mm and 29mm spindles. In both cases, "better engineered" one-piece BBs and 24mm and 29mm custom bearings appeared to fix some issues. In situations where they aren't needed, they also create new problems. The trade-off for precision somewhere is also needing it on the corresponding surface. I am not defending Tavelo's being out of spec, but I am defending the non-engineers who say the bike works fine with their BB. It probably does for them because someone else engineered a part that deals with the potential BB being out of spec.
Also another vote for someone (aka, @patliean1) to buy and review the SC-R55D. With the standard round headset cap, UDH, and lower price, it sure would be interesting, though I suspect it will also likely need some attention on the seat post clamp.
-
I'm curious as to how many frames are actually bang on in BB tolerances. I'm trying to think about previous examinations and can't really think of many.
Calipers are not the tool to be using to do this measurement either, you need a bore gauge/mic.
I'm thinking the technology of molding these frames simply isn't capable of producing tolerances that high and further process is required like sticking the frame in a jig on a mill and using a boring bar type tool or reaming setup to get it spot on where you could actually indicate.
Anyone work at a bike shop? Curious if it's common place to ream BB on something like a Specialized to dimension...hand reamers like Park Tool potentially isn't really going to be a reliable way of getting the BB bore to dimension at these accuracies, at least in alignment and parallelism (it would achieve OD precisely however).
-
I'm curious as to how many frames are actually bang on in BB tolerances. I'm trying to think about previous examinations and can't really think of many.
Calipers are not the tool to be using to do this measurement either, you need a bore gauge/mic.
I'm thinking the technology of molding these frames simply isn't capable of producing tolerances that high and further process is required like sticking the frame in a jig on a mill and using a boring bar type tool or reaming setup to get it spot on where you could actually indicate.
Anyone work at a bike shop? Curious if it's common place to ream BB on something like a Specialized to dimension...hand reamers like Park Tool potentially isn't really going to be a reliable way of getting the BB bore to dimension at these accuracies, at least in alignment and parallelism (it would achieve OD precisely however).
I live in DC. We have a huge cycling scene here extending north into Maryland and south to Richmond. I think it has the most significant cycling scene east of the Rockies (in the US). There is exactly one shop I know that has the tools to both face and ream frames (not just do disc mounts). I think reaming a carbon BB would never happen there. Some Ti frames, probably because they could charge for it; steel and alloy, sure, but carbon would just kill those tools and they aren't cheap.
-
Remember when Mapdec Cycle Works reamed the bottom bracket on an SL8, effectively voiding the warranty?
-
I live in DC. We have a huge cycling scene here extending north into Maryland and south to Richmond. I think it has the most significant cycling scene east of the Rockies. There is exactly one shop I know that has the tools to both face and ream frames (not just do disc mounts). I think reaming a carbon BB would never happen there. Some Ti frames, probably because they could charge for it; steel and alloy, sure, but carbon would just kill those tools and they aren't cheap.
I can corroborate, when I built up my light carbon and discovered the bad BB, I called every bike shop in the Boston area and was turned down. Any shop that had the tool said they’d use it on aluminum only.
-
Actually I do like GCperformance vid….showing off and comparing different brands in his shop…
With some of the points mentioned by PT…
And concerning QC…look over at a neighbour forum discussing SL8 fork „out of center wheel issues“…
Has also some funny conclusions there…
And lastly…still I think we might overestimate western market importance when looking at the huge Chinese market itself.
-
Remember when Mapdec Cycle Works reamed the bottom bracket on an SL8, effectively voiding the warranty?
faced not reamed
and well, it's either that or a wonkily mounted BB
and if you're tying to warranty the frame for an unrelated issues, I suspect that kind of "voiding of warranty" wouldn't hold up in court, just like 'warranty void if removed' stickers
-
Remember when Mapdec Cycle Works reamed the bottom bracket on an SL8, effectively voiding the warranty?
It's hard for me to be on the side of mapdick with this one as he is an absolute clown, but it seems specialized has this problem on many frames and according to this dude not only specialized.
And I think that Alex's Dowsett mechanic knows his stuff. Dude is literally sponsored by Specialized.
4:20
https://youtu.be/9xBj2k6AsNI?si=RpCcSvZRVvcFzC08
-
Personally I was hyped by the Arow frame because it seemed to bring all the things I wanted in a frame, which was sub 1000g weight with a design that looks really aero. What are the alternative bikes that have similar qualities? Seka Spear (more expensive, no US dealer) and Winspace Agile are pretty much it. One of the few Chiner frames that seemed to be on par with the latest gen allround bikes like the SL8, new Madone, SS6-2 etc. I don't think the hype was artificially high per-se, they are offering a frame design a lot of people want.
I’m a SEKA dealer. You can contact me
-
Great colour........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPpBX2yuskU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPpBX2yuskU)
-
It's hard for me to be on the side of mapdick with this one as he is an absolute clown, but it seems specialized has this problem on many frames and according to this dude not only specialized.
And I think that Alex's Dowsett mechanic knows his stuff. Dude is literally sponsored by Specialized.
4:20
https://youtu.be/9xBj2k6AsNI?si=RpCcSvZRVvcFzC08
Wow he really hurt your feelings?
You should stop the personal attacks, they bring no value to this forum, even if you don't like him...
As an s-works owner with bottom bracket alignment issues, I can say it's a problem...
-
Also another vote for someone (aka, @patliean1) to buy and review the SC-R55D. With the standard round headset cap, UDH, and lower price, it sure would be interesting, though I suspect it will also likely need some attention on the seat post clamp.
Does Speeder sell any of its frames to the general public? And if so, what price range are we looking at?
My original plan was to get the Arow and literally use ever single component off my Tavelo Attack for the build. At this point I could just do the same with the SC-R55D.
-
Wow he really hurt your feelings?
You should stop the personal attacks, they bring no value to this forum, even if you don't like him...
As an s-works owner with bottom bracket alignment issues, I can say it's a problem...
Aw are you that sensitive that you felt the need to give a voice to your sensitive tears?
He deserves to get called out, he voided a warranty out of being arrogant and uneducated. At the same time, the customer is just as stupid for taking his frame to get prepared by a mechanic who isn't working on behalf of specialized.
The funniest part is that the arrogant mechanic ends up building up the lightest frame with brick components and it ends up weighing up the same as the titanic. And the customer is happy with that? Well, they're both fools.
-
Does Speeder sell any of its frames to the general public? And if so, what price range are we looking at?
My original plan was to get the Arow and literally use ever single component off my Tavelo Attack for the build. At this point I could just do the same with the SC-R55D.
I was quoted $832 for the frame, bars, post, headset and shipping to USA, lead time 2-3 months when I emailed them about 2 months ago.
-
Aw are you that sensitive that you felt the need to give a voice to your sensitive tears?
He deserves to get called out, he voided a warranty out of being arrogant and uneducated. At the same time, the customer is just as stupid for taking his frame to get prepared by a mechanic who isn't working on behalf of specialized.
The funniest part is that the arrogant mechanic ends up building up the lightest frame with brick components and it ends up weighing up the same as the titanic. And the customer is happy with that? Well, they're both fools.
There were some thoughts, too, that some of the problems PT had with the new Red E1 provided by Mapdec were a result of improperly bled brakes, DOT fluid under the hoods, etc., because a lot of the complaints are consistent with what happens when you have a reservoir leak or don't use alcohol to clean up your DOT after a spill. That said, I doubt facing the BB would void the warranty. In the US, Specialized would have to prove that the facing led to the specific failure in question for the warranty not to apply. Specialized would likely not fight a customer over that for the cost of a warranty frame.
-
Does Speeder sell any of its frames to the general public? And if so, what price range are we looking at?
My original plan was to get the Arow and literally use ever single component off my Tavelo Attack for the build. At this point I could just do the same with the SC-R55D.
I think someone else has answered whether Speeder sells to individuals better than I could since they included pricing.
Some updates like UDH are nice, but the frame is also a different geo in your size L /56. It would be an interesting comparison. If you wanted to fit with a narrower bar, depending on the bar + stem choice, you might even want to go up a size and slam it. I am happy to help you walk through some of the things to think about if you want to go in that direction.
It seems likely to have the same BB issues, but the price would make working through that more palatable.
-
There were some thoughts, too, that some of the problems PT had with the new Red E1 provided by Mapdec were a result of improperly bled brakes, DOT fluid under the hoods, etc., because a lot of the complaints are consistent with what happens when you have a reservoir leak or don't use alcohol to clean up your DOT after a spill. That said, I doubt facing the BB would void the warranty. In the US, Specialized would have to prove that the facing led to the specific failure in question for the warranty not to apply. Specialized would likely not fight a customer over that for the cost of a warranty frame.
A lot of assumptions about specialized warranty there. Not sure I agree, but I get what you're saying.
The way I see it:
Got it built by a non-specialized certified/approved mechanic.
The mechanic purposely went against the manual instructions which explicitly state the works done will void warranty instead of sending it back to specialized for remedy.
I think specialized are well within their rights to point the finger at the mechanic if anything goes wrong.
And then it comes down to whether mechanic wants to fight specialized in court or not. I know I wouldn't be super keen on fighting specialized in a circumstance like that.
Then it comes down to whether the customer wants to fight the mechanic in court or not.
And the whole time the customer is without a bike in that process.
And all of that just makes me think... Read the manual and follow the instructions like a normal person. If there is an issue with a frame at sworks level, get the manufacturer to remedy it so you're covered.
But in this case there is a fool trusting a fool.
-
I just ordered a Tavelo Arow and will have my LBS build it up. Hoping for the best.
-
I like the look of the arow and its getting a reaming on YouTube.
Seem like a hefty price for basically an unknow Brand, plus resale is like to be less than half the value
Should be in the $1200 bracket no more.
I have an SL8 and my other bike is a Winspace SLC2.0 this I want to change as I may race again next year and I need something I can race and afford to crash ;D
-
I like the look of the arow and its getting a reaming on YouTube.
Seem like a hefty price for basically an unknow Brand, plus resale is like to be less than half the value
Should be in the $1200 bracket no more.
I have an SL8 and my other bike is a Winspace SLC2.0 this I want to change as I may race again next year and I need something I can race and afford to crash ;D
Don't think u can even get 50% resale value. Someone here or one weight weenies said he could barely get 25% on his seka exceed
-
$1700-$1900 USD is the new standard for premium Chinese bikes. Winspace, Tavelo, Bross, QuickPro, SEKA. Even Yoeleo increased their prices last summer to around $1600, but then later wised up and dropped retail down to $1420 USD. Smart move...
If you take the plunge into premium Chinese frames, be prepared to keep it forever or donate it to a junior. There is no resale value.
-
I think branded / pays kickbacks to influencers is more accurate than premium. I'm yet to understand how a yeoleo is a better frame than a long teng / light carbon / Yishun, for eg. We know for a fact that Tavelo currently has the worst manufacturing tolerances of the industry with nobody getting a BB to spec. Seka is its own can of worms.
Charging a lot for something doesn't make it premium, at least in my eyes. Just makes it expensive / overpriced.
And there is a resale value, it's just that it's low, and probably a much better reflection of the intrinsic value of the frame in the 1st place.
-
I saw now that they actually decreased the price to $1680 on the Tavelo website. Interesting…
-
What I admire about cycling is that neither our purchasing decisions nor fitness abilities make us any more noble or shrewd than the next fellow. No matter how much we insist these aspects actually matter in the eyes of others.
Funny enough, both my Yishun/Light Carbon R086-D and Winspace T1500 are among my most ridden bikes milage wise. Only losing to my Dengfu R12. Plenty of solid bikes across all price points, and the market has shown people are willing to pay.
I spend a lot of time interacting with local independent bike shops, authorized dealers, and varying race clubs. There's always something new I learn but most importantly, learning about what brands/products are actually selling to consumers in the real world. And what brands are a nightmare to work on. An informed consumer puts pressure on brands to do better. In theory at least.
-
Really interesting to me about how people care about resale value, as all the bikes that I have owned I ride until their life is over
-
I find the whole beauty of cheaper Chinese road bikes is that I can ride far more aggressively without worry of crashing my bike. If resale is such a big concern I’m guessing most people aren’t riding their bikes hard enough!
-
I find the whole beauty of cheaper Chinese road bikes is that I can ride far more aggressively without worry of crashing my bike. If resale is such a big concern I’m guessing most people aren’t riding their bikes hard enough!
Very different things. Just cause you don't want to give up resale value from the start, does not mean that you are affraid to ride it..
-
Very different things. Just cause you don't want to give up resale value from the start, does not mean that you are affraid to ride it..
Agreed. Also, not everybody is hard core cyclist. I have two friends, both engineers, who are thinking about buying a Chinese bike and they take into consideration the spec sheet with resale value in mind. 1. It's option value, and 2. They're unsure they will fall in love with cycling (road cycling is hard at the end of day) and so they want to know if they can resell stuff if they don't get hooked on the sport.
-
Agreed. Also, not everybody is hard core cyclist. I have two friends, both engineers, who are thinking about buying a Chinese bike and they take into consideration the spec sheet with resale value in mind. 1. It's option value, and 2. They're unsure they will fall in love with cycling (road cycling is hard at the end of day) and so they want to know if they can resell stuff if they don't get hooked on the sport.
Funny thing. I'm a engineer and it's the same regarding spec sheet and resale value. The difference is that I do race on my bikes.
I have been riding roadbikes for 5 years now and manged to upgrade my bike 3 times now for little money, because I've made choices with good resale perspective.
(Also, it helped that I'm 200 cm tall, so people my size that want something used, have to pay extra compared to the 54-56 sized bikes. Good thing here, but shitty thing when I just want a Hygge frame and they do not make them that big!)
-
I think there is a market for all these bikes. The problem in the cycling industry is most people are sheep and believe that western brands are better then Chinese. That might be true as some Chinese brands have crap QC. I think the Chinese brands will flip the western in the next 10 years. Funny we all accept the western brands after they sponsor a world tour team. Factor was no one b4 ag2r. Van Rysel same. I own a spear and \i think its the best bike I have ridden. When people smart up and realize the Chinese are building some of the best bikes the industry will finally change. Kudos to everyone here riding a Chinese bike.
-
With the exception of 1 to 2 road races a year, I stopped racing crits a couple of years ago. My anxiety for crashing and frail ego of getting dropped is high. Tough to make videos with a broken collarbone.
This week I took my buddy down to our flagship Specialized shop to purchase an Allez Sprint complete bike. I think he paid around $3000 before taxes. Beforehand he asked my thoughts about going with Specialized, and I did my best to consider all factors. He's new to the sport and most likely won't ride more than 50 miles a week. But then again he might just fall in love and go all in.
Could I have recommended a more affordable Chinese alternative with better wheels? Absolutely. But then I would be accountable for spec'ing all the components, building up the frameset, servicing it, and dealing with any future issues. Because we're buddies. It's a lot to take in for a new customer. He will have the peace of mind of local after sales support and warranty.
My Tavelo (Attack) is really good. $1500. Especially paired with a set CRW wheels. Both of which I paid for. It has very refined riding dynamic, and smoother than my T1500. Most likely the Arow is a blend of both the Attack and T1500 combined. But spending $2000 to find out if it can come close to my Propel would put me in the poor house.
-
With the exception of 1 to 2 road races a year, I stopped racing crits a couple of years ago. My anxiety for crashing and frail ego of getting dropped is high. Tough to make videos with a broken collarbone.
This week I took my buddy down to our flagship Specialized shop to purchase an Allez Sprint complete bike. I think he paid around $3000 before taxes. Beforehand he asked my thoughts about going with Specialized, and I did my best to consider all factors. He's new to the sport and most likely won't ride more than 50 miles a week. But then again he might just fall in love and go all in.
Could I have recommended a more affordable Chinese alternative with better wheels? Absolutely. But then I would be accountable for spec'ing all the components, building up the frameset, servicing it, and dealing with any future issues. Because we're buddies. It's a lot to take in for a new customer. He will have the peace of mind of local after sales support and warranty.
My Tavelo (Attack) is really good. $1500. Especially paired with a set CRW wheels. Both of which I paid for. It has very refined riding dynamic, and smoother than my T1500. Most likely the Arow is a blend of both the Attack and T1500 combined. But spending $2000 to find out if it can come close to my Propel would put me in the poor house.
Totally agree. At the end of the day we have one set of legs. Truth be told no new bike will make us 5km/h faster it’s just nice to get something new:)
-
Really interesting to me about how people care about resale value, as all the bikes that I have owned I ride until their life is over
So I'm really dating myself here-had a Focus made in Taiwan Tange No. 2 lugged steel frame in the mid 80s that I rode all over the Salt Lake City mountains for a few years and also in my first trip to Germany before joining the military. Upgraded to a Basso Gap Columbus SL frame before I got orders back to Germany and gifted the frame to another soldier. Saw in a Facebook group two years ago that he remembered who I was and that he ending up riding that frame several more years across the US and also Korea before it finally died with a terminal downtube crack.
-
Very different things. Just cause you don't want to give up resale value from the start, does not mean that you are affraid to ride it..
I live in a huge US urban sprawl with millions of cars, violent road rage, high speed car chases, daily bike thefts and a crumbling road infrastructure. No way would I feel comfortable riding something like an SL8 with SRAM RED unless I was only riding it in car parking lot. Resale value is the last thing I'm thinking about when I want to get home in one piece. Riding aggressively where I live is both a defensive and survival mechanism. I'll only ride what I can easily replace.
-
I live in a huge US urban sprawl with millions of cars, violent road rage, high speed car chases, daily bike thefts and a crumbling road infrastructure. No way would I feel comfortable riding something like an SL8 with SRAM RED unless I was only riding it in car parking lot. Resale value is the last thing I'm thinking about when I want to get home in one piece. Riding aggressively where I live is both a defensive and survival mechanism. I'll only ride what I can easily replace.
That is a bit different wording than your original “people don’t ride hard enough!” post.
And don’t get me wrong. I’m not against frames from China. As I said earlier, I would love a Hygge Aero frame or a Tavelo Arow. But the Hygge one is not made in my size and the Tavelo is more expensive than the Merida Reacto I ended up with.
-
While the frameset prices drop like lead, the Chiner wheelsets seem to hold well in used markets.. not talking about Superteams but Winspace, Farsports, Elite Drive/Edge, Yoeleo and even ICAN. Another observation, those exaggeratedly priced FM696 rebrands also retain values if you are to sell, compared to Carbonda 696 e.g. Bombtrack HOOK C, Ridley Kanzo and also the smaller names like Boltcutter.
-
That is a bit different wording than your original “people don’t ride hard enough!” post.
And don’t get me wrong. I’m not against frames from China. As I said earlier, I would love a Hygge Aero frame or a Tavelo Arow. But the Hygge one is not made in my size and the Tavelo is more expensive than the Merida Reacto I ended up with.
Point being I don't ride without regrets or hold back for fear of crashing or damaging my bike because of the environment I live in. Honestly, I could easily go with an S-Works Aethos and a Crux for my road/gravel combo. I would even be a cheap ass and throw on an LTwoo or Wheeltop groupset with some no-brand name lightweight carbon wheels!
-
I cant remember the last time I bought a bike with the thought of resale. Hell Im the guy who always sells his stuff way too cheap.
-
I cant remember the last time I bought a bike with the thought of resale. Hell Im the guy who always sells his stuff way too cheap.
Well. I wish I was a place in life were that was the case for me also :D
I just think I get a kick of getting a good deal. A good deal for me is something with a good resale value or good value for my money (isn't that the reason why we're all here?).
-
It also matters if you like to change bikes often. At least that's what I do. Take apart everything, move groupset and wheels to another frame and sell the old frameset.
-
It also matters if you like to change bikes often. At least that's what I do. Take apart everything, move groupset and wheels to another frame and sell the old frameset.
Know that feeling. I'm on my third bike in those 5 years.
Started out with a Stevens Izoard. Great bike, but a bit old school with rim brakes. Then I got a Giant TCR Pro Team disc. Again, great bike, but I started racing more this year (and live in pan flat Denmark..) so I wanted something more aero. Now on my Merida Reacto. Let us see how long it last..
-
Resale value is obviously important. However, if you are racing you want to be able to change things, upgrade and even crash without going broke. For sure, buying a second hand specialized SL7/8 or Giant Propel will yield better resale and you will know what you are getting. But, I want a 36 mm wide bar, 120 mm stem. 165 crank arms with 54 chainrings. There is no "complete" bika that comes with that. Second hand frames in Sweden where I live go for pretty high still. With the Tavelo Arow you get the frame and handlebars for a fraction of the cost. Honestly, I feel that the price point is very competetive if you take all those things in to account.
-
Resale value is obviously important. However, if you are racing you want to be able to change things, upgrade and even crash without going broke. For sure, buying a second hand specialized SL7/8 or Giant Propel will yield better resale and you will know what you are getting. But, I want a 36 mm wide bar, 120 mm stem. 165 crank arms with 54 chainrings. There is no "complete" bika that comes with that. Second hand frames in Sweden where I live go for pretty high still. With the Tavelo Arow you get the frame and handlebars for a fraction of the cost. Honestly, I feel that the price point is very competetive if you take all those things in to account.
What did you end up paying for the total build?
-
What did you end up paying for the total build?
Long story short, got hit by a car during a training ride which broke my old bike in 2. The wheels and group set are still ok.
Frame + handlebars: $1880
Incolor Skypivot crankset, 24mm titanium spindle + spider: $510
Cybrei 54/38 chainrings: $150
Dura ace Shimano BB: $30
Supacaz handlebar tape: $35
Already have the wheelset and Shimano Ultegra DI2 from my crashed bike.
-
Long story short, got hit by a car during a training ride which broke my old bike in 2. The wheels and group set are still ok.
Frame + handlebars: $1880
Incolor Skypivot crankset, 24mm titanium spindle + spider: $510
Cybrei 54/38 chainrings: $150
Dura ace Shimano BB: $30
Supacaz handlebar tape: $35
Already have the wheelset and Shimano Ultegra DI2 from my crashed bike.
Hope you came out of that crash better than your frame!!
It's around the same price I gave for my Merida Reacto 4000 (if I take out the price of the groupset) from brand new.
Honest, I think the Tavelo Arow is a nicer bike and I still need to change my handlebars, but then my value risc regarding crash etc is not bigger than from a Tavelo bike. And I still have better resale options.
Do have a picture of your build? Would love to see it.
-
Yeah, they should ban cars hehe. Have not recieved the frame yet. Will post a picture when it is here and built up!
-
Tavelo posted a vid of the qc process on insta and the bb in the vid is still significantly undersized
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAIpHAGJ0eX/
Cant make this shit up
-
Tavelo posted a vid of the qc process on insta and the bb in the vid is still significantly undersized
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAIpHAGJ0eX/
Cant make this shit up
LMAO
-
I red all this topic. I think most of you are talking about Tavelo Arow without having ever seen or touched with own hands the product.
I can say you all that I bought a Tavelo Arow frame this September and my mechanic (a really good mechanic, not a youtuber) assembled the bike in no time with no problems. This frame is awesome, and it flies on the road!
-
I red all this topic. I think most of you are talking about Tavelo Arow without having ever seen or touched with own hands the product.
I can say you all that I bought a Tavelo Arow frame this September and my mechanic (a really good mechanic, not a youtuber) assembled the bike in no time with no problems. This frame is awesome, and it flies on the road!
Like Sheryl Crow said, if it makes you happy, it can't be that bad.
Ride your bike and be happy, and never listen to strangers on the internet. Most users here are Russian disinformation bots infected with AIDS. I myself eat my neighbours' dogs.
-
Speaking of which, my Tavelo Arow frameset just arrived an hour ago.
Standby for pics…
-
I red all this topic. I think most of you are talking about Tavelo Arow without having ever seen or touched with own hands the product.
I can say you all that I bought a Tavelo Arow frame this September and my mechanic (a really good mechanic, not a youtuber) assembled the bike in no time with no problems. This frame is awesome, and it flies on the road!
Tavelo, is that you?
-
Speaking of which, my Tavelo Arow frameset just arrived an hour ago.
Standby for pics…
Saw the tease on Instagram! Can’t wait to see more of it.
-
Tavelo, is that you?
Would some Tavelo rep use a picture saved from WhatsApp?! ;)
-
Would some Tavelo rep use a picture saved from WhatsApp?! ;)
Only to put doubt into your mind
-
Tavelo, is that you?
No, I am not "Tavelo". I am an Italian private individual who spent his money to buy Tavelo Arow and rides it happily 3 times a week. Wanna my strava? If you like to know, my bike works very well and I did not have any issue since now.
-
These are the latest picture of my Tavelo Arow during my ride onto "Montecassino Abbey" in Italy.
This bike is great on climbing too.
-
Build complete.
-
Build complete.
Nice you got the grey one, I was all about this colorway when the frame was first announced. I was sad it wasn't one of the original colors available.
-
Wanna my strava?
Sure
-
Build complete.
What pulley wheel system is that?
-
Hi all,I have a question regardin this frame and hopefully some one can answer
-geometry chart: I see two different value in reach and stack reading the geometry on tavelo website and on Pandapodium (size XXL) I think that the reason is that one table consider the mandatory spacer and one don't
-handlebar/ stem dimension : I see some review that Indicated that the real length is bigger than what advertised, can you confirm that? I should go for a shorter length to reach the desired handlebar reach? What is the angle of the stem?
-tyre clearance: I see that the 32 mm is listed ,do you think that there is a space for something bigger? I use conti gp5000 on 24 id Tim and the real dimensioni od the tyre is 34.
Thanks in advance
-
Hi,
Anyone running this frame 1x?. I appreciate it is not UDH but I prefer 1x bikes. Currently run a Vielo V+1 race.
-
Hi! Anyone using this with seperate bar and stem? What did you have to do to make it work?
-
Peaktorque is selling a 3d printed adapter to run none integrated bar and stem