27.5+ FS Frame Options

[acedeuce802]

I currently have a 2013 Giant Talon, and I'm planning for a full suspension Chiner build and wanted to get some opinions and see if anyone knows of other frames to consider.  I want a 27.5+ full suspension that can also use a 29x2.3 wheel/tire.  So far I've found 4 frames that fit the bill.  Some of these pro's and con's are general, and some are specific to what I'm looking for.  The M04 is not being produced anymore, so that one is not considered.

Carbon Speed CS-FS27 - http://www.xmcarbonspeed.com/Productinfo.asp?f=1485

Pro's
- Rear shock that terminates near bottom bracket (I can't stand when they mount to middle of top tube or down tube, unless they have geometry to load directly to head tube through top tube)
- Lightweight (2050g)
- Peter at Carbon Speed has great reputation
- A few builds with good reviews, still not as many builds as the other non-plus bike frames
- 130/122mm travel is good middle ground between XC and trail
- 31.6mm seat tube (seems most common, easier to find deals on posts)
- Similar geometry to Scott Spark which has great reviews, relatively slack headtube angle
- Cost, $635

Con's
- Rear brake cable routed through top tube and top of rear triangle, bending the cable through suspension travel
- No pivot on chainstays, seatstays, or rear axle, causing bending to the seatstays when the pivot actuates (common design, at least I've seen it on aluminum frames, but it's something I'd like to avoid)
- BB92 (subjective, I haven't actually worked with press fit bottom brackets before, but it seems like it has similar inconveniences of BB30, but with the smaller 24mm shaft of BSA)
- Small rear shock, 165x38 is intended for trunnion mount, but finding a trunnion mount shock seems difficult, 165mm non-trunnion are not all that popular either

ICAN P8 / IMUST XP07 - http://www.icanbikes.com/html/MTB/27_5ER_frame/334.html#bk_desc_tab

Pro's
- Rear shock that terminates near bottom bracket
- Pivot on chainstay
- Reasonable weight (2368g), I'd rather have a carbon frame that's slightly heavier if it means more reliability
- BSA (easy to maintain/install)
- 31.6mm seat tube
- 120mm travel good for XC
- 200x51mm shock opens up possibilities, especially DVO Topaz (I enjoy suspension tinkering, so DVO stuff seems really interesting)
- The few reviews about other ICAN bikes are positive
- 68 deg headtube angle reflects XC

Con's
- I'm not sure I've seen reviews, other than on Amazon
- Cost ($776 for IMUST XP07 on Amazon)

ICAN P9 - http://www.icanbikes.com/html/MTB/27_5ER_frame/338.html

Pro's
- Rear shock that terminates near bottom bracket
- Pivot on chainstay
- Reasonable weight (2400g), seems acceptable considering travel and intended use
- BSA
- 30.9mm seat tube (this is a personal pro, my Giant is 30.9 so I already have a dropper that I'd transfer to the Chiner)
- 150mm travel, more trial/AM focused, also allows use of DVO Diamond, for same reasons of Topaz above
- Slack 66 deg heat tube angle matches AM focus
- I haven't been able to track down if this is a direct copied frame, but it's very close to a Norco Carbon Sight or Range, with slightly different geometry

Con's
- 210x55mm shock, I only see a CCDB on Jenson, DVO Topaz in 216x57.5mm may work but would have to check out geometry changes
- No reviews, brand new frame
- Cost, $730 (still reasonable, just more than FS27)

Dengfu FM006 / M06 - http://dengfubikes.com/MTB_FRAME/233.html

Pro's
- Cost, $580 (found on forum, not sure if current)
- Weight (2100g)
- Seems like good cable routing

Con's
- Not sure yet about travel, website doesn't say, I've seen 100mm on forums, but some Scott sparks also are 130mm (I've seen this geometry compared to either Scott Spark or Yeti ASRC)
- Not much info on website, geometry tab doesn't show anything
- Low bottom bracket
- Same rear shock size as FS27
- BB92
- Lack of pivot on rear triangle

After writing this down on paper, I think it's pretty obvious that I like the ICAN frames more than the FS27, but it's unfortunate since I was really wanting to work with Carbon Speed.  The Dengfu just seems to be lacking info, and I need to email them.  I'd like to hear if any of my opinions are off, since I'm fairly new to this sport.  The ICAN frames may just be lacking con's because I missed something or because there's no reviews out about them.  But I really like the overall geometry and solid design of the bikes.  I think it comes down to figuring out what travel I am aiming for.  I'm in SE Michigan, which doesn't require any crazy high travel bikes (we do have lots and lots of roots, so the plus tires along with some travel is definitely nice).  But I'd also like it to be capable enough to bring along on a trip to the upper peninsula to Copper Harbor or a road trip to Colorado and such.  A new trail opened up here that also has quite a bit of jumps, so I don't want to limit myself when I start to get faster and higher.  I feel like with the new tech in forks, shocks, and geometry you can get away with a little higher travel and still have a decent climbing bike.  That leads me to the ICAN P9, but I also don't want to get in over my head and get worn out on climbs.  Thanks!

[jefflinde]

I am in the same boat as you in looking for a full suspension + bike.  couple things i would add to your list. 

FS27 -
- it does not use a trunnion shock it is just upside down.  any regular shock that is 165x38 will fit. 

Dengfu-
- the Geo is the same as the M06 frame.  all they have done is create a boost spaced rear end.  i emailed them about this frame as to me it seems like the best option.

-i think a lot will come down to the geo.  all the designs have been proven by some name brand manufacturer so i would not worry about that.  like the flex stays of the FS27 and FM006. 
-the 165x38 shock is a pretty common XC bike shock size so i would not really count that as a con unless the travel that it provides is not what you are looking for and then that pretty much should rule out that frame anyways.   
-you have both XC and AM head angles as pros, that tells me you may want to look at what you want the bike to do.  those are kind of mutually exclusive riding segments.  find out what you do more of and go with that frame. 
-the P9 is listed as OEM old so not sure if Joe Public can buy this.  something to look into. 


just my thought

cheers

[acedeuce802]

I am in the same boat as you in looking for a full suspension + bike.  couple things i would add to your list. 

FS27 -
- it does not use a trunnion shock it is just upside down.  any regular shock that is 165x38 will fit. 

Dengfu-
- the Geo is the same as the M06 frame.  all they have done is create a boost spaced rear end.  i emailed them about this frame as to me it seems like the best option.

-i think a lot will come down to the geo.  all the designs have been proven by some name brand manufacturer so i would not worry about that.  like the flex stays of the FS27 and FM006. 
-the 165x38 shock is a pretty common XC bike shock size so i would not really count that as a con unless the travel that it provides is not what you are looking for and then that pretty much should rule out that frame anyways.   
-you have both XC and AM head angles as pros, that tells me you may want to look at what you want the bike to do.  those are kind of mutually exclusive riding segments.  find out what you do more of and go with that frame. 
-the P9 is listed as OEM old so not sure if Joe Public can buy this.  something to look into. 


just my thought

cheers

Thanks for the input!  Yeah I have both geometry's in the pro's, mostly because it seems they match the type of bike, and not necessarily because it's the exact geometry I'm looking for.  For example, if the P9 had a 68.5 deg head angle it'd be a con, because it wouldn't match the AM frame.  These 4 seem to all have updated geometry, as they are copies of new bikes.

I guess I glanced over the text in the main picture saying the P9 is for OEM only, however I was emailing with ICAN and they quoted me the P9 shipped to USA, so maybe that text is not valid.

[drummercat]

I have the FS27, the actual frame weight for my medium frame is 2.1kg. The head angle is not as slack as advertised. Its about 67.5~68 degree (with 120mm reba, measured with my phone app). I put a 165x38 shock in mine, and it doesnt feels like a 130mm travel at all. If its a copy of the scott it should be 120mm rear with 165x45 shock, so I put a shock with less stroke the actual travel should be reduced also, from my calculation it would we about 100mm.

The bike is very efficient for a full suspension (even I set sag at more than 30%). My build is light enough for me and I am happy with the performance (I put 29er wheels). Also Peter from xmcarboonspeed is very helpful.

Get the fs27, you wont be disappointed. 

[acedeuce802]

I have the FS27, the actual frame weight for my medium frame is 2.1kg. The head angle is not as slack as advertised. Its about 67.5~68 degree (with 120mm reba, measured with my phone app). I put a 165x38 shock in mine, and it doesnt feels like a 130mm travel at all. If its a copy of the scott it should be 120mm rear with 165x45 shock, so I put a shock with less stroke the actual travel should be reduced also, from my calculation it would we about 100mm.

The bike is very efficient for a full suspension (even I set sag at more than 30%). My build is light enough for me and I am happy with the performance (I put 29er wheels). Also Peter from xmcarboonspeed is very helpful.

Get the fs27, you wont be disappointed. 

Thank you! I'm definitely starting to think the FS27 is going to meet my needs more than all the others, and suit my riding the best.  I'm renting a Trek Fuel EX 27.5+ this weekend, since I haven't actually ridden a plus bike yet.  If I think the plus bike is the way to go for me, I think I will go ahead and place an order for the FS27 frame and a set of carbon wheels with DT350's from Peter.

Just curious, what size did you order and how tall are you?  I'm 5' 10" and currently ride an 18" Giant Talon.  The chart on Scott's website for the Spark Plus has 5'10" listed in between the 17.5" and 19".

[drummercat]

Mine is a medium 17.5"  , I am 5'8 (173cm) tall and the bike fits very well. If you prefer more upright riding position you can get the M, but I would recommend L for 5'10 because you will have more room for your body movements.

[McFaker]

Drummercat what tires are you running and how's the clearance? I've read on here Peter advised it would accept up to 29x2.2.

Also I believe the geo chart reflects a 130mm fork. I've read each 10mm of extra axle to crown will slacken the bike 0.5 deg. So your HA measurement would be 67- 67.5, which seems a lot closer to advertised.

OP, I've been researching fit for the Scott Spark since info is not available for the FS27 and for 5'10" Large is the consensus.

[drummercat]

Yes the rear clearance is a bit tight, I am using nobby nic 29x2.2, it's quite worn so it clears no problem. I will post a pic tonight about the clearance. I think an ikon 2.3 may still fit but really close. 29x2.4 ardent may be rubbing.

[drummercat]

Here is the clearance, 29x2.2 nobby nic, a bit worn.

[McFaker]

Cool thanks for the pics! Looks like you got the updated rear brake cable routing through the chain stays and downtube?

What shock are you running?

[drummercat]

Nope.....I drill the internal routing holes by myself......

The shock is a fox ctd 165x38 non kashima. Looking for upgrade....may be a 2017 giant  anthem reer shock???

[Peter60]

Drimmercat, can you please give a feedback about driving and feeling for this FS027 with 29" wheel?
Is the frame good enough for climbing (very high slope %)?
Efficiency is good?
What about DH performance also?

I also would like to know if the rear triangle is stiff on lateral side (I remember one a my trail carbon bike that was too flexible on that  point)?

I am interesting to know your opinion for the right fork : is the frame more suitable with a Reba or a Pike?

[mr_manny]

What about Unified Rear Triangle...is this a PRO or CON?

[drummercat]

Hey Peter,

Sorry for the late,
I didn`t climb with a very steep slope yet, but for normal to medium slope (some 1:10 or 1:, the bike is very comforntable and efficient to ride, front wheel rarely raise up and rear traction is good. (well, at least for my setting.)

For the downhill performance, this is the 2nd short travel 29er I own, the former is a specialized camber with 110mm rear travel, fs027 has just 100mm with 165x38 sgock shock. Actually the Camber feels slightly better on DH, more subtle for small stuff. But the camber doesn`t corner as good as the 027. If the 027 have the full 120mm rear or a pair of beefier tyres it may outperform the camber on dh easily I think.

The 027 is laterally stiff, compared to most other bikes I`ve own. Include some good euduro bikes.

The bike is actually a XC ~trail bike, I recommend a fork with  120mm travel max. Pike 29er 120mm is good, but it will add 10 more mm compare to a reba 120. It will slacken the bike a little bit but also impact the climbings.

Hope this helps. 

[Peter60]

Thank you for the review 

Then I bought this frame and I received it some days ago. Quality is good.

laterally stiff is good compared to me previous FS (MSC Blast).

Did not get all components yet then didn't ride it. 

Despite seller recommendation I quite sure the 165x45 mm rear shox will not fit therefore I will buy the Monarch XX 165x32.

I will keep you informed.