What is "All Mountain" and good "Technique"

[emu26]

So this is a bit off topic as far as Chinertown goes but it is relevant as it's about a 150mm / 140mm travel "All Mountain" carbon frame.

I'm doing a warranty dance with a branded manufacturer that I won't yet name as the dance continues. They have denied a warranty claim on my son's 150mm front / 140mm rear "All Mountain frame"

Specifics
150 Fox 34 front 140mm rear Rockshos Debonair Monarch Plus RC3 rear
48 kg (108lb) rider weight
Frame size small.

He landed a gap jump and the bottom race of the head set failed, compressing up into the frame, taking the bottom cup and some of the underside of the down tube up with it. Front wheel then washed out and he ended up going down on his side.  They have claimed I did the headset up too tight, the jump was much bigger than I said. I challenged both of those and they then suggested he landed flat, not proper technique,  or the jump was bigger than I have told them.

Under Australian consumer law I am covered by what a reasonable person would consider normal use AND would I have bought the frame knowing these new limitations.

So I have two questions to gauge what other reasonable people think.

1) what size gap jumps would you expect reasonable for a 150mm front / 140mm rear carbon dual suspension all mountain frame?
2) what do you consider proper landing technique in terms of which wheel should land first?

I have two polls going on MTBR, if you have posting access there I would appreciate you answering the polls.

https://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/landing-technique-1147267.html

https://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/what-all-mountain-your-opinion-1147265.html

Thanks for your help.

[bxcc]

I would think that it would be one of two reasons that the frame would fail in that manner.
1) a manufacturing defect
2) improper headset installation

The defect seems like the most logical option to me. You would have to apply a very excessive amount of force to get the headtube to compress or be compromised during the headset install on a properly made frame. But it is possible if someone is unaware of their own strength and how torque is applied.

How big was the jump? Realistically, that would be quite the crash to smash the lower headset cup into the frame. Especially at his weight. And to some extent, the size of the jump is irrelevant if the landing was correct.

Has the company offered to help in any manner?

[emu26]

I don't want to say the size of the jump yet because I want people to give their honest opinion. I should be covered under Australian consumer law which is designed to protect consumers from manufacturers from wording their warranty / guarantee in such a way as to absolve themselves from liability for what a "reasonable person" would expect should be covered. It also is very specific around "fit for purpose".  I'm trying to gauge what "reasonable people" think  as I believe it will be important when this claim ends up in arbitration.

They have offered me a crash replacement at a discounted price which ends up costing two and half times what I paid for the frame. I think it is fair to say I will not be giving a company that much more money when they warrant the goods I have already paid for.

[lRaphl]

I would expect a huck to flat from 2m high ending up without any problem with this type of bike. I'm doing 1m huck to flat with my IP-036 (100mm rear/120mm front) on a regular basis and never had a failure over the past 4.5 years of use.

As for proper technique, if they think everyone will land perfectly smooth and controlled EVERYTIME using their bikes, then they under engineered them. To me, the front wheel is supposed to fold up way before. And having a headset too tight would mean being unable to turn the bars easily and I'm pretty sure your son would have told you about that.

[tripleDot]

How is your kid?

#1. I've no answer. I never do jumps or stunts and don't have experiences with full suspension bikes.

#2. Personally, if they dictate poor techniques or improper landings voids warranty. They're simply saying they don't have any warranty at all. I mean, even the pros have shown poor techniques & bad landings at some point. They're just basically saying their bikes are only for perfect riders.

[emu26]

Tripledot, he's ok. He did suffer another mild concussion, which is always a concern so young, and he has had a high  grade concussion before playing rugby (he stopped playing and took up mountain biking instead)

As for response #2, that seems to be the overwhelming consensus from comments I am getting elsewhere.  I have been contacted privately by a couple of people, all guessing the manufacturer and letting me know they have a terrible reputation for honouring warranty, particularly for road bikes which is their core business.

Thanks.

[tripleDot]

@emu26, it's good to know your kid is doing okay. I do hope he doesn't have any future complications.

Yikes with that bike manufacturer. I'm waiting for the time you'll share the brand with us.

[emu26]

Message sent tripledot