Any chinese frames using high modulus carbon like the real Specialized frames?

[eucalyptus]

Hey, been reading a lot on this forum and WW.

My question: Are there any frames that can compete on the same weight like the $5000 frames by Specialized, Pinarello and a few others?

The only one I know about that would be an option is the Seka Exceed RDC, which is just slightly heavier than the top tier frames but also not very racy aggressive geometry. Read that the Seka is more laidback.

The Velobuild 168 looks fantastic as it is a copy of the Tarmac SL7 geometry, but it is a lot heavier.

I don't really care about pricing, I understand that a Velobuild frame for $500 cannot compete with a +$5000 S-works frame, but why is there nothing in between? I wouldn't mind paying $2-3000 for a top-tier frame from China.

[StiffWeenies]

The upcoming Elilee Blize will have an ultralight 680g variant constructed from a mixture of Toray T1100 and M40X. You also have the Dizo Epic Pro which is constructed from Mitsubishi MR70 and Dyneema. These two won't be cheap and they certainly won't they sit at that 2-3K US sweetspot. According to Elilee, T1100 costs 5x of T800 and M40X costs 10x of T800...you do the math. For reference Elilee's top level EVO XXE triathlon frame retailed at around 4.5K US in China. Finally you have the not-as-high-end Pardus Robin Evo that employs a mixture of T1100, T800 and M40 for its carbon layup.

Do note that carbon supply is massively constrained worldwide which means that there is next to no excess material left for no name brands. Since imported material is hard to come by and there are actually export restrictions placed on top level T1100 due to military applications, most open mould makers source their material from Sinofibers who produce T1000 and T800 domestically in China. Sinofibers has small batch T1100 & M40X equivalent material (ZT9 & ZM40X) on top of their recently commercialised T1000 but currently only T800 (ZT8) is mass produced and readily available. Besides Sinofibers, Tianshun produce T800 equivalent material (TS800) and are also working on their own T1000.

[RDY]

UHM or high % of HM / UHM fibers generally isn't desirable anyway, as it produces an incredibly stiff, brittle frame.  The really lightweight stuff usually uses less material and a mix of T700 & T800 or equivalents, but because they use less material they're often rather noodly and flexy, like the Aethos or worse the O2 VAM.

Dizo is interesting due to the dyneema ... It should make steerer failures much less likely, as well as shock absorption properties. 

Also I'd never heard of Dizo ... They seem to be operating in Japan but made and designed in TW.  Any more info about them? The Epic Pro is also the only frame I've seen where they show a visual representation of how Geo differs on all the sizes.

[StiffWeenies]

UHM or high % of HM / UHM fibers generally isn't desirable anyway, as it produces an incredibly stiff, brittle frame.  The really lightweight stuff usually uses less material and a mix of T700 & T800 or equivalents, but because they use less material they're often rather noodly and flexy, like the Aethos or worse the O2 VAM.

Dizo is interesting due to the dyneema ... It should make steerer failures much less likely, as well as shock absorption properties. 

Also I'd never heard of Dizo ... They seem to be operating in Japan but made and designed in TW.  Any more info about them? The Epic Pro is also the only frame I've seen where they show a visual representation of how Geo differs on all the sizes.

Dizo is the in-house brand of Advanced International Multitech Co., Ltd. The Epic Pro has been shown for a while now but there is no indication as to when exactly it'll be available. Ultimately there is still next to no production capacity because factories are preoccupied with fulfilling orders for big brands. For example, BLKTEC is basically dormant because their factory is Trigon who produce components for Pinarello's MOST and Shimano's PRO.

And you're right on the stiffness aspect. The point of using stiffer material is not to create a stiffer frame but rather to meet the same stiffness targets while using less material.

[RDY]

It seems odd that their house brand basically seems to operate in JP only ...

[eucalyptus]

The upcoming Elilee Blize will have an ultralight 680g variant constructed from a mixture of Toray T1100 and M40X. You also have the Dizo Epic Pro which is constructed from Mitsubishi MR70 and Dyneema. These two won't be cheap and they certainly won't they sit at that 2-3K US sweetspot. According to Elilee, T1100 costs 5x of T800 and M40X costs 10x of T800...you do the math. For reference Elilee's top level EVO XXE triathlon frame retailed at around 4.5K US in China. Finally you have the not-as-high-end Pardus Robin Evo that employs a mixture of T1100, T800 and M40 for its carbon layup.

Do note that carbon supply is massively constrained worldwide which means that there is next to no excess material left for no name brands. Since imported material is hard to come by and there are actually export restrictions placed on top level T1100 due to military applications, most open mould makers source their material from Sinofibers who produce T1000 and T800 domestically in China. Sinofibers has small batch T1100 & M40X equivalent material (ZT9 & ZM40X) on top of their recently commercialised T1000 but currently only T800 (ZT8) is mass produced and readily available.

hey thanks for that! Great info.
That Eilee Blize looks incredible and very similar weight to the Canyon ultimate CFR.

The Pardus also look interesting. But whatever I search on google I cannot find any place to buy any of the brands you mentioned? The Eilee doesn't exist apart from a picture on Twitter. The Pardus, no where to buy it or info about frameset

I would go for a Seka Exceed RDC but it is not aggressive enough, too much endurance.

[StiffWeenies]

hey thanks for that! Great info.
That Eilee Blize looks incredible and very similar weight to the Canyon ultimate CFR.

The Pardus also look interesting. But whatever I search on google I cannot find any place to buy any of the brands you mentioned? The Eilee doesn't exist apart from a picture on Twitter. The Pardus, no where to buy it or info about frameset

I would go for a Seka Exceed RDC but it is not aggressive enough, too much endurance.

Unfortunately Elilee isn't retailed outside of Greater China at this time. Even Pardus is only really sold in SEA and MENA if we're talking overseas markets, but regardless I don't think that they're truly comparable to S-Works so you're not really missing out on that end. I really hope that Cycling100 eventually picks up other brands like Elilee, VFV (Voicevelo MTB), Builder Reserve (BR Wheels) and 0011 Cycle (THR Industries hubs). because there are a lot of great high end products that only the Chinese domestic market knows about.

Speaking of Elilee, apparently they're also working on a carbon crankset with a 28mm(M30?) carbon axle. That's Clavicula SE level technology right there.

[RDY]

Unfortunately Elilee isn't retailed outside of Greater China at this time. Even Pardus is only really sold in SEA and MENA if we're talking overseas markets, but regardless I don't think that they're truly comparable to S-Works so you're not really missing out on that end. I really hope that Cycling100 eventually picks up other brands like Elilee, VFV (MTB) and Builder Reserve (BR Wheels) because there are a lot of great high end products that only the Chinese domestic market knows about.

Speaking of Elilee, apparently they're also working on a carbon crankset with a 28mm(M30?) carbon axle. That's Clavicula SE level technology right there.

Seems odd to do a 28mm axle.  Because then DUB and 30mm compatible BBs won't work and they'll presumably have to make their own.

Also I thought Elilee used BB86?

[StiffWeenies]

Seems odd to do a 28mm axle.  Because then DUB and 30mm compatible BBs won't work and they'll presumably have to make their own.

Yeah, the only 28mm axle standard I can think of is the Praxis M30 which is partial 28mm NDS/30mm DS. But they wrote "28碳轴心" in a comment which clearly means 28mm carbon axle.

[RDY]

Maybe someone in PR wrote it and got confused becaise DUB is 28.99mm ...

[StiffWeenies]

Maybe someone in PR wrote it and got confused becaise DUB is 28.99mm ...

Good point! Fingers crossed it's DUB or at least M30

Also I thought Elilee used BB86?

I'm not sure which standard was on the EVO XXE but the upcoming Blize will use PF30

[RDY]

PF30

[StiffWeenies]

Yeah, the only 28mm axle standard I can think of is the Praxis M30 which is partial 28mm NDS/30mm DS. But they wrote "28碳轴心" in a comment which clearly means 28mm carbon axle.

some new details coming out

cranks incl. spider: 30mm axle, 325g standard version 2388RMB, 290g top end version 4088RMB

frameset incl. seatpost & accessories(?): 1170g top end version 16800RMB, 1270g standard version 10800RMB
^frameset pricing includes cockpit, frame itself is "stiffer than Emonda"

frame only: 850g standard version, 680g top end version
^unpainted weight

cockpit: 210g

All the pricing is unofficial/introductory only, it'll most certainly go up at retail.

[kbike]

Thanks for posting all these awesome products.  If anything you been finding does become available or group buy I'm interested.

Are these be the converted prices to dollar?
Standard cranks $360
Top end cranks $618

Standard frame $1635
Top end frame $2540

[StiffWeenies]

Thanks for posting all these awesome products.  If anything you been finding does become available or group buy I'm interested.

Are these be the converted prices to dollar?
Standard cranks $360
Top end cranks $618

Standard frame $1635
Top end frame $2540

The values will vary due to exchange rates and these unofficial figures are purely speculative, I’m just sharing what I read on another forum