Super Boost Discussion

[Tijoe]

Last year, around this time of year, I had Waltly build me a custom TI 29er hardtail that was Super Boost based. (Fits 157 rear hubs.)
I purchased many of the parts for the build off of Aliexpress.   But, I was not able to purchase any cost effective lightweight 157 rear hubs.  I ended up purchasing XT super boost hubs via E-bay deals I found, and built up my own rear wheels.  (Front wheel prebuilt and ordered spokes and additional carbon rims from CLANNAD.) 

Since May this year, I road over 1000 miles on this particular bike, including 2 multi-day bikpacking trips.  I really like how this bike turned out, and do like the super boost geometry, including the wider BSA 83BB shell on the frame.

The reason I am sharing this is that about a year ago, I contacted every seller of hubs on Aliexpress asking if they were going to sell a super boost version of their hubs.  All of them said yes, but close to a year has passed, and few are listed and actually available.

I ended up working to some degree with a couple manufacturers of hubs via Alibaba.   I can get a great price, for an under 250 gram rear hub, but I have to purchase a minimum of 50. (Tried the "sample" route, but they haven't wanted to let me purchase several samples.)

I figure, since super boost hasn't really taken off, Chinese manufacturers aren't willing to manufacture 157mm rear hubs on their own.   
Similarly, I can't find a single super boost frame for sale on Aliexpress.

[carbonazza]

Tangential question... what made you go with super boost ?

[jonathanf2]

I've noticed this as well. If something lacks demand or market forces start to change, manufacturers will cease production. For example, a few months ago I could find quite a few post mount carbon gravel frames, but now they've become increasingly rare as most have gone flat mount.

[Tijoe]

Tangential question... what made you go with super boost ?

The Waltly Ti frame I had fabricated has sliders on the back and is designed to handle a 26 X 4" rear tire.   Since one of this bike's main functions is for bike packing,  I wanted to be able build light weight strong wheels.  I felt that not having to use an offset rear rim, and have the same length spokes on drive and disc side would allow "even spoke tensions" on both sides, resulting in a stronger wheel.   So far, this has worked out really well.

[pacer]

Good experience with clannad?

[Tijoe]

I spent about $1300 with Clannad in December 2021. 

I had 2 front custom front wheels built, and purchased 4 carbon rims and spokes from them.  The transaction went smooth.  Shipping was free/integrated into the costs, it took about 6 weeks for the 2 boxes to arrive.   I've put about 1000 miles on one set of wheels from them.  So far, they have had no problems. (Clannad didn't have any 157 hubs available, so I built up my own rear wheels with XT hubs.)

The rims appear to be of good quality, and I would purchase from them again.

[Flying Trunk Monkey]

What do you consider light weight and cost effective? DT Swiss 350 is about an ounce more than the 250g that you mentioned.

What country are you in?

Did you post the details of your frame elsewhere on the forum?

I agree the the superboost/83mm BB combo is a great option, especially for Ti bikepacking rigs. I wasn't aware that you could go up to 4" though. Personally, I like the extra space just for mud clearance alone.

I have a carbon framed Otso Voytek that has an 83mm BB. It'll fit up to 4.6 on the rear. I've never run bigger than 2.8x27.5 though. I really don't notice the wider BB at all (183mm Q factor)

I'm curious which cranks you use. The Votek's crank options are pretty limited. If anyone is in the market for a set of 83mm cranks I have a take off set of Race Face Affects and BB.

Aaron

[Tijoe]

What do you consider light weight and cost effective? DT Swiss 350 is about an o and ounce more than the 250g that you mentioned.

The company I was working with was via Alibaba. They wanted about $28.63 each for their custom, (to my Specification) rear 157 CL MS based rear hub.  They claimed it would weigh around 250 grams.
At first, they wanted 100 unit minimum then later dropped it to 50 minimum.   I didn't like the bearing they specified, so they were willing to upgrade, but I would have to pay around $35 each.   Since this would be a "business transaction" I would probably have to pay a Tariff (Probably 25% of value and used an import broker, into the USA, Plus shipping.)
(I asked if they were willing to sell me 2 samples, but they wanted a $50% deposit, on an order of at least 50 hubs.

What country are you in?

USA

Did you post the details of your frame elsewhere on the forum?

I'll have to look, perhaps when I joined the forum a month ago. But I think I posted the bike somewhere, but it might be on MTBR.

I agree the the superboost/83mm BB combo is a great option, especially for Ti bikepacking rigs. I wasn't aware that you could go up to 4" though. Peronally, I like the extra space just for mud clearance alone.

I have a carbon framed Otso Voytek that has an 83mm BB. It'll fit up to 4.6 on the rear. I've never run bigger than 2.8x27.5 though. I really don't notice the wider BB at all (183mm Q factor)

I'm curious which cranks you use. The Votek's crank options are pretty limited. If anyone is in the market for a set of 83mm cranks I have a take off set of Race Face Affects and BB.

I went with Race Face Carbon Next SL cranks, axle and BSA83 BB.   

Here are a couple pics of the back half of the frame and one where the bike is partially dressed for bikepacking.

[Flying Trunk Monkey]

Bicycle hub classified here:
https://www.customsmobile.com/rulings/docview?doc_id=NY%20N117118&highlight=8714.93.3500

Harmonized tariff schedule found here:
https://hts.usitc.gov/?query=8714.93.3500

I'm not sure h0w to interpret the HTS but I think hubs might be 10%. I'd ask the manufacturer.

50% deposit for 50 pieces would've had me asking for 25 "samples", LOL. Also, it sounds like they wanted to make most of their money on non-crappy  (hopefully) bearings.

[Tijoe]

Many, if not most of the Chinese hubs use NBK Chinese bearings.  The grade they originally offered me is the second to the lowest that NBK manufactures.  The upgrade they offered me was an increase of around $2.00 each per bearing, X 3 bearings = $6.00   Not too bad an increase if you think about it.  If you look up a decent Timkin or SKF cartridge bearing, they will cost starting around $15 each.  Ceramic cartridge bearings are often in the $30 range each. 

I wont go into details about bearing selections for bicycle hubs.  I spent several years of my career working with bearing applications and designs in low RPM High vacuum environments, and had to do a lot of work with, low friction, very low particulate generation, bearings/races and  non-outgassing lubricants.

In general, almost all hub manufactures around the world are using medium RPM range cartridge bearings for what is considered a low RPM range bearing applications. (Bicycle hubs = typically under 500 rpm.)
Bearing selection for bicycles is based more on available space between the axle OD  and the ID hub housing, rather than an optimized ball/race/rpm combination.  The lubricants/greases used are typically as inexpensive as one can find.  I could go on and on, but in the end it doesn't matter because the performance of the bearings they use are good enough overall and is a second order energy loss in the complete bicycle applied to an average cyclist.

I haven't looked up the current harmonized tariffs for bicycle parts.  I believe that many of the 25% tariffs of the last administration have expired, or negotiated away by the bicycle industry.  (My hub negotiations were done at the end of last year.  I decided, what the heck would I do with even 50 hubs?  I am no longer dabble in the cycling industry on the side, so 40+ Super Boost rear hubs would be a drain on my time trying to sell them.)

[Flying Trunk Monkey]

Sounds like you know a thing or two. Only you can determine the personal financial feasibility end of such a deal. Are you on the Facebook "Bicycle Wheel Building" group. Over 27k members worldwide. Several current/former industry types contribute. You MIGHT be able to find some interest there. Hell, if you can't sell it there then I'd consider that good reason not to pursue it. You might also try the Framebuilders forum. I've had a few discussions similar to ours regarding the advantages of Superboost on custom frames. You might run into some builders that are looking for the same solution you've found.

[Tijoe]

Thanks, great input.  I am not much of a Facebook user, but I joined the group.  Probably another way to consume more time that I should be actually working on bike projects or riding. 
Off of the main group, I joined another group called: SALES - Bicycle Wheel Building.    I have 40+ years of wheel parts that I really should think about selling before I get too old, such that  I wont have the health and time to get rid of, and perhaps everything gets dumped by my kids when I pass.  (Plus my wife says if I die before her, she will walk away from my basement full of crap and leave it all to my kids to deal with. (LOL)