Alternatives to Winspace/Yoeleo/Seka/Elves?

[patliean1]

Hey All - Thanks in advance.

I'm looking for a permanent(ish) backup aero-frame for my Winspace T15000. Some of you may know I run a small YouTube channel, and have been fortunate to test several frames between $500-$1500 USD.

As of today my secondary bike is the current Allez Sprint. It's a nice frame and excellent on the flats. Doesn't feel harsh or too heavy either. I will continue to test it through the spring/early summer, however I just don't fully "love it" the same way I do my T1500.

Budget is between $1500-$2000 range.

SEKA - Overall frame geometry reach is a little short. Their lead times and customer service (C100) is questionable.
Yoeleo - My first bike build ever was the R6. Yoeleo is focusing their energy on the R12, however their customer service alone is enough reason to not recommend them (to the Western world).
Elves - The new Falath EVO has potential. What still needs to be seen is their actual fulfillment times, and if this new frame better than their Falath predecessor (which seems to have been just an okay frame).
Speeder - The SC-R52D will probably be my fall-back plan nothing else makes sense. The money saved can go towards a nicer groupset.

Hoping someone like @stiffweenies can chime in on perhaps some of the popular Chinese domestic frames in this price range. Or maybe brands like Dare, Cube, Merida, Pardus. Yes I know that I'm in a difficult and rather pretentious situation...

P.S. - a steel frame from Standert Germany is still on the radar, but that's for another project.

[Yunglord]

What about going for the Elilee if the R52D is also in the list?

Out of that list, I'd go with the Seka/Elves if aero is a priority and in both case, I think waiting a month or two might bring some answers.

For Seka C100 is being phased out so I would wait until they have their stuff setup.

[patliean1]

What about going for the Elilee if the R52D is also in the list?

Out of that list, I'd go with the Seka/Elves if aero is a priority and in both case, I think waiting a month or two might bring some answers.

I have a contact who's been dealing with Elilee. Funny enough, I am currently running their new Mobius OSPW system on my T1500. The new BLIZE 01 frame from them frame looks very promising and was the radar too. Sadly the language barrier and their lack of any real customer service is a challenge. They aren't setup for the Western world.

To your point - I may just need to hold out for the future of Seka/Elves if I'm not in any rush. Thanks!

EDIT: Pricing for the Elilee BLIZE 01 if I recall is somewhere around $2000usd

[RDY]

I have a contact who's been dealing with Elilee. Funny enough, I am currently running their new Mobius OSPW system on my T1500. The new BLIZE 01 frame from them frame looks very promising and was the radar too. Sadly the language barrier and their lack of any real customer service is a challenge. They aren't setup for the Western world.

To your point - I may just need to hold out for the future of Seka/Elves if I'm not in any rush. Thanks!

EDIT: Pricing for the Elilee BLIZE 01 if I recall is somewhere around $2000usd

That's not been my experience with Elilee so far.  Communication has been excellent - ordered the Novanta crank.  Since they didn't yet have anything below 170mm, I just paid a deposit whilst the factory does a batch of 167.5 (what I wanted).

Not quite as good as Nextie or Speeder, but still very good IMO.

[patliean1]

I'm probably going to inquire about that Elilee frameset

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cp8W-VjylLT/

-T1100 Carbon. My assumption is only in critical areas of the frame.
-UCI Approved (if that actually matters)
-Wind tunnel tested. Take with a grain of salt.
-Standard (non-chrome) frame $1820usd, incl integrated handlebars
-Overall it appears they've done testing against the SL7 and Dogma F
-XXE version is lighter

It's more of an all-arounder frame rather than aero, but I do think it looks pretty good.

[ricedaddy]

Thanks @patliean1 for actually buying and testing a lot of these frames. It's a real help for all of us. I myself is very interested in the R52D.

Winspace is coming out with the T1550 which from the sounds of it is just a better quality/constructed T1500. I was hoping for an official announcement of the CRUIZE-R that we've seen which many of us have speculated is just the Speeder R52D

[patliean1]

Thanks @patliean1 for actually buying and testing a lot of these frames. It's a real help for all of us. I myself is very interested in the R52D.

Winspace is coming out with the T1550 which from the sounds of it is just a better quality/constructed T1500. I was hoping for an official announcement of the CRUIZE-R that we've seen which many of us have speculated is just the Speeder R52D

Thank you!

One thing I've been paying attention to during my recent bike builds is properly setting up the front end of the bike. Namely the stack height. While I typically opt for a long and slammed stem, this is really only practical for racing and fast group rides. Oh and Instagram photos.

Being in the drops can be a safety measure for more control, and to prevent hooking bars with other riders. However, for endurance rides (solo or group) I'm better off being comfortable and aero on the hoods rather than the drops. This is where having a taller stack height with Speeder R52D becomes attractive. Yeah being aero is awesome but only if the position is sustainable.

[StiffWeenies]

There are very few options that can offer you a buying experience comparable to Winspace. And the reason why Chinese brands have so few serious offerings in this segment is because the four most popular bikes domestically are the Giant TCR, Giant Propel, Merida Scultura and Merida Reacto! On Chinese forums, literally every topic discussing the top sub-15K RMB domestic frames has someone suggesting the sub-20K TCR Advanced SL because the Giant is just too darn good in every aspect.

Winspace - The new T1550 is way too similar to your current T1500, sure you'd be satisfied with it but it wouldn't feel 'new' or make for meaningfully different content from your existing T1500 videos. The new Lun Mega wheels are sick tho

Elves - I honestly think that the new Falath EVO is a bit of a dud and rate the whole brand a tier beneath Winspace but I suppose it'd make for well performing content considering the interest in them

Seka - Nightmare buying experience and geometry mismatch aside, they are still the most serious brand coming out of China right now. The Exceed is a proper frame and the standard layup has the best bang for buck. And now that Cam has given up on reviewing it, you can capitalise by taking all the english language mindshare on YT. There are rumours that they'll release a new climbing frame (Afield update?) but nothing concrete.

Elilee - Very serious high end products but I think they still need some time to get on top of everything and mature their production process as they recently had to revise BB finishing on the Blize due to an out of spec pre-production frame. Come back to it in half a year? Their crankset though is absolutely solid and there's been zero negative feedback to my knowledge.

Pardus - They only sell complete bikes and the only way to get your hands on a 'new' frameset in China is to buy one dismantled from a complete. Now that the groupset shortage has receded it's even harder to buy a Pardus frameset because the incentive for reselling a groupset doesn't exist anymore.

So this brings me back to Giant. Why not just get a TCR or Propel? Sure they don't feel 'exciting' as an established brand but there's a reason why they're the biggest in the world. I've also noticed that there isn't much ownership content of them on the internet so perhaps you could capitalise on the TCR's cult following like the Allez? Do keep in mind that they'll probably release a next gen fully integrated TCR soon for '24 MY

[patliean1]

There are very few options that can offer you a buying experience comparable to Winspace. And the reason why Chinese brands have so few serious offerings in this segment is because the four most popular bikes domestically are the Giant TCR, Giant Propel, Merida Scultura and Merida Reacto! On Chinese forums, literally every topic discussing the top sub-15K RMB domestic frames has someone suggesting the sub-20K TCR Advanced SL because the Giant is just too darn good in every aspect.

Winspace - The new T1550 is way too similar to your current T1500, sure you'd be satisfied with it but it wouldn't feel 'new' or make for meaningfully different content from your existing T1500 videos. The new Lun Mega wheels are sick tho

Elves - I honestly think that the new Falath EVO is a bit of a dud and rate the whole brand a tier beneath Winspace but I suppose it'd make for well performing content considering the interest in them

Seka - Nightmare buying experience and geometry mismatch aside, they are still the most serious brand coming out of China right now. The Exceed is a proper frame and the standard layup has the best bang for buck. And now that Cam has given up on reviewing it, you can capitalise by taking all the english language mindshare on YT. There are rumours that they'll release a new climbing frame (Afield update?) but nothing concrete.

Elilee - Very serious high end products but I think they still need some time to get on top of everything and mature their production process as they recently had to revise BB finishing on the Blize due to an out of spec pre-production frame. Come back to it in half a year? Their crankset though is absolutely solid and there's been zero negative feedback to my knowledge.

Pardus - They only sell complete bikes and the only way to get your hands on a 'new' frameset in China is to buy one dismantled from a complete. Now that the groupset shortage has receded it's even harder to buy a Pardus frameset because the incentive for reselling a groupset doesn't exist anymore.

So this brings me back to Giant. Why not just get a TCR or Propel? Sure they don't feel 'exciting' as an established brand but there's a reason why they're the biggest in the world. I've also noticed that there isn't much ownership content of them on the internet so perhaps you could capitalise on the TCR's cult following like the Allez? Do keep in mind that they'll probably release a next gen fully integrated TCR soon for '24 MY

Excellent breakdown. Thanks SW for taking the time to chime in.

I'm still undecided, but your insight certainly has helped me at least rule out a few brands. Namely Elilee, Winspace, and Elves. I already had a suspicion that Elves isn't as great compared to the higher tiered Chinese brands. The Australia dealer for SEKA actually has my size in stock. If it's still there in a couple of week I may just pull the trigger.

[FHS]

So this brings me back to Giant. Why not just get a TCR or Propel? Sure they don't feel 'exciting' as an established brand but there's a reason why they're the biggest in the world. I've also noticed that there isn't much ownership content of them on the internet so perhaps you could capitalise on the TCR's cult following like the Allez? Do keep in mind that they'll probably release a next gen fully integrated TCR soon for '24 MY

I currently ride a '20 Propel after picking up a cheapish, newish, frame a couple of years ago. It's a true aero bike. The new '23 Propel is more like an SL7, an all-arounder with aero characteristics. In the past, if you were thinking Giant road bike, you either went with the superlight all arounder TCR, or the portly but really fast Propel. I think both had idiosyncrasies that would push potential buyers in one direction or the other. The new Propel, though, has closed the major gaps between the two bikes. The totally redesigned, fully integrated two piece cockpit versus the old one that nobody liked, and the weight savings pushing the top end bike below 7 kgs, have really changed Giant's game. The only people who have questions about the new Propel are people like me who would have rather seen them go all in on Aero. Not sure if a Giant will help your YT branding, but they are damn good bikes.

[StiffWeenies]

I currently ride a '20 Propel after picking up a cheapish, newish, frame a couple of years ago. It's a true aero bike. The new '23 Propel is more like an SL7, an all-arounder with aero characteristics. In the past, if you were thinking Giant road bike, you either went with the superlight all arounder TCR, or the portly but really fast Propel. I think both had idiosyncrasies that would push potential buyers in one direction or the other. The new Propel, though, has closed the major gaps between the two bikes. The totally redesigned, fully integrated two piece cockpit versus the old one that nobody liked, and the weight savings pushing the top end bike below 7 kgs, have really changed Giant's game. The only people who have questions about the new Propel are people like me who would have rather seen them go all in on Aero. Not sure if a Giant will help your YT branding, but they are damn good bikes.

I suppose it comes down to what kind of riding you want to do as well as who you are as a rider. The industry has basically settled on the SL7 as the absolute best compromise between lightweight and aero. Even the newest offerings on the market like the V4Rs, Dogma F, SSE LAB71, etc. whose previous generation models were already competing against the SL7 still can't manage the beat the Spesh - only match it. Despite the SSE LAB71 in painted size 56 quoted frame weight beating the S-Works by 30g, all that gain is nullified with Cannondale's inane (and heavy) Delta steerer design.

The new Propel takes that SL7 compromise and shifts the balance a bit towards aero (Elilee Blize is like this but opposite), which works for me because I approach that quality with the view that only pursuing maximal gains is sufficient. I personally love how the new Propel has this 'I skipped leg day' look to it because it lays bare the designers' aero philosophy: since body position and wheels are far bigger determinants of aero than the frame itself, work is only needed to aero optimise the leading edges of the bike and the rest can be lightweight - which is how you get those thick fork blades and headtube juxtaposed against the proportionately much thinner rear triangle.

[patliean1]

I suppose it comes down to what kind of riding you want to do as well as who you are as a rider. The industry has basically settled on the SL7 as the absolute best compromise between lightweight and aero. Even the newest offerings on the market like the V4Rs, Dogma F, SSE LAB71, etc. whose previous generation models were already competing against the SL7 still can't manage the beat the Spesh - only match it. Despite the SSE LAB71 in painted size 56 quoted frame weight beating the S-Works by 30g, all that gain is nullified with Cannondale's inane (and heavy) Delta steerer design.

The new Propel takes that SL7 compromise and shifts the balance a bit towards aero (Elilee Blize is like this but opposite), which works for me because I approach that quality with the view that only pursuing maximal gains is sufficient. I personally love how the new Propel has this 'I skipped leg day' look to it because it lays bare the designers' aero philosophy: since body position and wheels are far bigger determinants of aero than the frame itself, work is only needed to aero optimise the leading edges of the bike and the rest can be lightweight - which is how you get those thick fork blades and headtube juxtaposed against the proportionately much thinner rear triangle.

Wonder if I could source the latest Propel frameset from an authorized dealer. Already have wheels and groupo plus full builds get pricey quickly.

Chicago is the land of Tarmac SL7s - AFAIK Specialized only has two flagship retail shops outside of California...and both of them were opened here within the last two years. Kudos to the brand for doing their market research.

I'd probably dump my Allez Sprint for an SL7 if they weren't so ubiquitous around here. However, like you said, there is a reason why the SL7 is popular. 

[FHS]

Wonder if I could source the latest Propel frameset from an authorized dealer. Already have wheels and groupo plus full builds get pricey quickly.

Chicago is the land of Tarmac SL7s - AFAIK Specialized only has two flagship retail shops outside of California...and both of them were opened here within the last two years. Kudos to the brand for doing their market research.

I'd probably dump my Allez Sprint for an SL7 if they weren't so ubiquitous around here. However, like you said, there is a reason why the SL7 is popular.

Tarmacs seem to be everywhere. I don't know about flagship   stores, but there are 2 authorized dealers within driving distance of my home. Otoh, I've only ever seen 2 other Propels in the 3 years I've been riding my local roads. I know my LBS can get Giant products and service any Giant warranty issues. I will definitely be looking into a new Propel frameset when they become available.